Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: markusin on August 01, 2013, 04:33:37 pm
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So there is this idea that Saboteur is like an anti-remodel and the downgrade of 2 for your opponent is about the same as an upgrade of 2 for one of your own cards. However, Saboteur is not quite the reverse of Remodel as we know it. The reverse of Saboteur would look more like this:
Recreate - Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until revealing one costing $1 or more. Trash it and gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
The key here is that you're not sacrificing a card from your hand to get the remodel effect. Lookout and loan also have the benefit of trashing a card outside of your hand and maybe providing some cycling at the same time.
A thought occurs when looking at this remodel variant though. If it were to cost $5, it would look much worse than Rebuild. It has no +action, no name-a-card thing, nothing. It's too bad, because this card looks like it could be fun.
Is it really that much worse than Rebuild? this card could be good in a gold centric deck and help put things together faster, but it's unreliable. If it is terrible, than what does that mean for Saboteur? Is Saboteur that much worse than Rebuild as well? Um... yeah probably, except perhaps when Saboteur is battling Rebuild itself. Kind of like the Spy-Admiral interaction in Stratego.
So I feel like Saboteur is better than this reverse-Sab thing for some reason. The Reverse-Sab is unreliable and can hurt your deck if it hits the wrong thing, though it probably adds uncertainty more than anything else. Sab on the other hand adds uncertainty to your opponent's deck, not your own. In particular, it can trash the remodel variant card of your opponent, which may be the key difference between the two.
What are your thoughts on this?
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Well, it could cost $4, it's not strictly better than Remodel (with Remodel you choose what card to trash, with this one it's the first one you reveal).
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Well, it could cost $4, it's not strictly better than Remodel (with Remodel you choose what card to trash, with this one it's the first one you reveal).
Of course. My first thought is that this could cost $4. The thing is, Sab costs $5, so logic would suggest that the reverse can cost $5 as well. But the reverse doesn't do well on $5, which suggests that there is something we're missing about Sab's attack. I'm not sure it that's actually the case, or if Sab is just bad at $5. The problem with Sab is that it sucks, except when it's so good that you're glad it sucks most of the time.
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Reverses of cards don't always need to cost the same as the original. Think of swindler, that would be pretty horrible for you. It used to be a card but got taken out because it didn't work that well.
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Reverses of cards don't always need to cost the same as the original. Think of swindler, that would be pretty horrible for you. It used to be a card but got taken out because it didn't work that well.
But that makes sense. Generally, you buy the card you want most. It's not all that common that you want a card now but then would want to replace it with another card later. On the other hand, the difference between a card you wanted and a card you didn't want can be pretty huge (say Province-> Peddler or Fool's Gold->Estate).
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Isn't Rebuild basically a reverse Saboteur?
One that only aims at the cards where Saboteur harms you the most, adds an action and can go up to 3$ more, but it's pretty much the same, just overpowered.
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Also it's worth noting that Saboteur costs $5 instead of $4 mostly because it's so annoying, not necessarily because it's so powerful. This isn't annoying so $4 would be fine.
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Isn't Rebuild basically a reverse Saboteur?
One that only aims at the cards where Saboteur harms you the most, adds an action and can go up to 3$ more, but it's pretty much the same, just overpowered.
Well considering that you often go down to Duchy after Province is hit with a saboteur, I guess it is. Except it has an action. But then again, Saboteur can hit Rebuild. Rebuild can't give you more rebuilds.
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The main difference is Saboteur goes down at least $2, but sometimes down $3 or totally destroys a card. This goes up $2, or maybe $1 or even just gives you another copy of the same card.
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The main difference is Saboteur goes down at least $2, but sometimes down $3 or totally destroys a card. This goes up $2, or maybe $1 or even just gives you another copy of the same card.
Right. With Saboteur, you're guaranteed to be giving them a worse card, if not nothing (3-piling aside for now). With this remodel variant, you might get the exact same card in the end. You're not guaranteed to be getting a better card.
So then it can make sense for it to cost $4. I guess upgrading your own cards is not desired as often as downgrading your opponents cards, due simply to price restrictions.
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Technically, the reverse of Saboteur would be this:
Restorer - Action
$5 - Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until revealing one costing $1 or more. Trash it and gain a card costing at least $2 more than it.
This is, of course, a bad idea. :P
FWIW, your Recreate card will only hurt in edge cases. Usually if you hit something you don't want to hit, you can just replace it with the same thing. The main edge cases are empty piles (can't replace) and the desire NOT to empty piles when you're behind.
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Technically, the reverse of Saboteur would be this:
Restorer - Action
$5 - Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until revealing one costing $1 or more. Trash it and gain a card costing at least $2 more than it, chosen by the player to your left.
Fixed that for you.
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Technically, the reverse of Saboteur would be this:
Restorer - Action
$5 - Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until revealing one costing $1 or more. Trash it and gain a card costing at least $2 more than it, chosen by the player to your left.
Fixed that for you.
...That would be pretty interesting...
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Technically, the reverse of Saboteur would be this:
Restorer - Action
$5 - Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until revealing one costing $1 or more. Trash it and gain a card costing at least $2 more than it, chosen by the player to your left.
Fixed that for you.
...That would be pretty interesting...
...if Rebuild didn't exist.
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Technically, the reverse of Saboteur would be this:
Restorer - Action
$5 - Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until revealing one costing $1 or more. Trash it and gain a card costing at least $2 more than it, chosen by the player to your left.
Fixed that for you.
...That would be pretty interesting...
...if Rebuild didn't exist.
Well, maybe it would be better if you trashed from your hand.
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Technically, the reverse of Saboteur would be this:
Restorer - Action
$5 - Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until revealing one costing $1 or more. Trash it and gain a card costing at least $2 more than it, chosen by the player to your left.
Fixed that for you.
...That would be pretty interesting...
...if Rebuild didn't exist.
This doesn't need Duchies. Any 5 or 6 will do. Like Restorer, for instance. Or any other 5 once that pile runs out. Maybe the Cartographers you were using to skip your Silvers, or whatever they restored your Estates into.
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Technically, the reverse of Saboteur would be this:
Restorer - Action
$5 - Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until revealing one costing $1 or more. Trash it and gain a card costing at least $2 more than it, chosen by the player to your left.
Fixed that for you.
...That would be pretty interesting...
...if Rebuild didn't exist.
This doesn't need Duchies. Any 5 or 6 will do. Like Restorer, for instance. Or any other 5 once that pile runs out. Maybe the Cartographers you were using to skip your Silvers, or whatever they restored your Estates into.
Well, you can't name a card with this one...
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Well, one difference is that when you Saboteur an opponent's card, they miss it on that shuffle. With the exception of victory cards (more likely towards the end of the game), having an opponent miss a $3+ card is a good thing.
With the reverse, you're also having one of your good cards miss the reshuffle. It can't be a copper, so odds are, it's also a card that you want in your hand.
Maybe this would be evened out by having the reverse-Saboteur optionally put your new card on top of your deck?
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I always thought the "costing $3 or more" clause was at least in part so there would be something to downgrade to. I guess this could work for "costing $2 or more."
In this sense, shouldn't restore's clause say the card will cost $6 or less?
Suddenly this card got much much worse.
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This is getting further away from a strict reverse Saboteur, but how about this:
Committee
Types: Action
Cost: $?
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal one costing $4 or less. Trash that card and discard the rest. The player to your left names a card. Gain a card that costs up to $3 more than the trashed card and is not the named card.
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I always thought the "costing $3 or more" clause was at least in part so there would be something to downgrade to. I guess this could work for "costing $2 or more."
In this sense, shouldn't restore's clause say the card will cost $6 or less?
Suddenly this card got much much worse.
The bigger reason would be to keep Sab from being completely horrible. I don't want to trash your Copper for zero benefit to myself.
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Technically, the reverse of Saboteur would be this:
Restorer - Action
$5 - Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until revealing one costing $1 or more. Trash it and gain a card costing at least $2 more than it, chosen by the player to your left.
Fixed that for you.
...That would be pretty interesting...
...if Rebuild didn't exist.
This doesn't need Duchies. Any 5 or 6 will do. Like Restorer, for instance. Or any other 5 once that pile runs out. Maybe the Cartographers you were using to skip your Silvers, or whatever they restored your Estates into.
Although the fact that it vaporizes Provinces would hurt it a bit compared to Rebuild, I think. :P