Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Eran of Arcadia on July 12, 2013, 08:42:08 pm
-
I intend to introduce several different sets of people to this game in the near future, and I have been thinking about what cards would be best for this purpose. Now, as it happens, the only sets I have IRL are Seaside, Prosperity, and Dark Ages. And obviously I want to avoid any that are too complicated, which rules out most of Dark Ages . . . On the plus side, the fact that I have the base card set will make the various treasure and VP cards easier to distinguish.
So what would a good kingdom look like if you don't have any cards from the base game? Whenever I am picking cards, I try to include a trasher, a village, and a +Buy - so Worker's Village seems like a no-brainer in this case, and it's pretty simple. But what should I use for a trasher? An attack? Would alt-VP or treasures make things too complicated?
What do you all think?
-
Royal Seal is fun for beginners. Forager isn't bad, as it introduces trashing + trash interaction. As an attack... Maybe Rabble. Junk Dealer isn't awful for trashing either.
-
If you had Intrigue, I would definitely recommend a kingdom with King's Court, Goons, Masquerade, and Peddler. Especially fun to do to newbies in three-player!
I will edit in a more serious reply when I get time.
Edit: Okay, here goes. I will try to make it like the "First Game" recommended kingdom, so that you can show them how you can beat most beginners with BM-X, but the best strategy is usually an engine.
Haven
Vagrant
Lookout
Warehouse
Armory
Ironmonger
Worker's Village
Rabble
Vault
Bank
No Platinum/Colonies
Thoughts: Started out with Vault, to demonstrate a strong BM option. Then added in Rabble, for good draw and a stalling attack. Threw in a gainer, village (with +Buy), and some trashing. I chose lookout because it trashes slowly and is nonterminal. You don't want to start players off with chapel. Bank because it helps the engine. Then filled the rest of the slots with harmless, spammable cards, because I don't want newbies to overbuy terminals, because terminal collision sucks. And what kind of newbie doesn't love playing a bunch of action cards on their turns?
Note: I would play two games, the first of which the new players do what they want and you play Big Money-Vault, showing that those treasure cards are there for a reason, and that you can't just aimlessly buy action cards and think it will work out. Then build the engine the second game, showing that action cards with direction will crush BM.
If the new players want, you could have a third game in which you play Vault-Bm again and they crush you with the engine :P
-
There was a topic somewhat related to this that was posted before Guilds was released. I think I asked the question of what kingdoms would be good for beginners assuming the absence of the base set.
-
I think using cards like armory, altar, bazaar, and scavenger are all pretty safe cards that have basic concepts that would work well with newbs. Also, sea hag I think would work fine for a first curser. probably would want to skip the duration cards right away though.
-
Lighthouse would be a good one to use. You want some sort of defense against attacks to be available, and lighthouse is an obvious one, and it's also clear why it's a duration - it protects you while it stays out!
Cutpurse is a reasonable attack to use. It demonstrates how attacks hurt, but it'll never be too bad because it'll never hit anybody's "good cards".
Armory seems fine to include as a gainer (the recommended "First Game" set has Workshop). The gaining on top of the deck doesn't seem like it would be confusing.
Smithy variants are harder to pick - you should probably include one, but the choices are Wharf, Rabble, Catacombs, and Hunting Grounds. Rabble can be a nasty attack if stacked (as it would be with 3-4 players), Wharf is an extra duration, and Catacombs/Hunting Grounds have on-trash abilities whose uses will be sort of obscure. Maybe use Catacombs.
Don't include alt-VP or Kingdom Treasures. Province/Duchy/Estate are already new VP cards in someone's first game, and Copper/Silver/Gold are new too.
How about this kingdom? Worker's Village, Catacombs, Cutpurse, Lighthouse, Armory, Altar, Storeroom, Navigator, Bazaar, Smugglers. No platinum/colony or shelters.
Has Bazaar and Worker's Village as villages with two different benefits. Has Catacombs as terminal draw. Cutpurse as an attack that hits enough to hurt but not enough to cripple, and Lighthouse as a defense against it. Gainer in Armory and Altar, Altar as a trasher. With a few spare slots, I put in Smugglers because that's non-attack player interaction, and people might like smuggling good stuff. Navigator and Storeroom because why not, but maybe there's better stuff to put in those slots. Maybe swap in Hunting Grounds instead of Storeroom, then you'll have two cards with on-trash abilities.
-
Like Rabble, Cutpurse is nasty in the early game when stacked. It can cause you to lose a whole turn just as readily as Rabble can, but it's available to all players on the first two turns.
-
Vagrant, Moat, Sage, Bishop, Salvager, Talisman, Wandering Minstrel, Pillage, Venture, Bank.
-
How about this kingdom? Worker's Village, Catacombs, Cutpurse, Lighthouse, Armory, Altar, Storeroom, Navigator, Bazaar, Smugglers. No platinum/colony or shelters.
In addition to the concerns about Cutpurse, I'd recommend avoiding durations for the first game. Maybe switch in Market Square for Lighthouse, and either Urchin or Rogue for Cutpurse?
Market Square lets you get another source of +buy and lets you introduce the concept of Reactions.
Urchin is less than ideal for a couple reasons (the whole upgrading aspect chief among them) but it doesn't stack badly, they are unlikely (with this set up) to connect for a while, and the attack occasionally stings enough to be worth mentioning, at least.
Alternatively you could go with Rogue, which is weak enough and slow enough to not be overwhelming, and lets you connect the idea of Reactions to Attacks.
-
You probably want to avoid durations at least for the first few games. It's hard enough to get the flow of a turn right without these extra cards staying out.
The things you want are:
village
trash
gain
buy
attack (preferably hand-size)
draw
sift
possibly reaction...
lack of a completely dominant card
multiple cards at all price points
Something like:
Vagrant, Squire, Warehouse, Watchtower, Wandering Minstrel, Armory, Salvager, Cutpurse, Pillage, Catacombs
should work.
-
I would actually avoid Vault and Bishop for the very first game (but introduce soon afterwards), because it involves decision-making on other players' turns. Some Vault decisions are hard choices even for veterans, but for noobs I don't think they'll be able to properly evaluate trashing a copper. That requires knowing the value of the best $4 vs Silver, and that's something you don't pick up for a game or two.
I agree that Rabble is a good attack in a first game. 1) Demonstrates value of draw 1a) you can use it to show the power of BMX 2) Attack is straightforward to resolve and involves no decisions 3) Attack is noticeable, but not as punishing as a curses 4) Attack highlights how green cards choke your deck and it's desirable to get rid of them 4a) Lookout interacts well, allowing them to see the value of trashing.
Squire is good because they'll go overboard for the +actions, and then end up using them for silver, and accidentally end up with decent-enough buying power to pick up an interesting card or two. Armory is good because someone will be so proud of themselves when they're clever enough to gain a card, draw it, and play it that turn.
I'm of two minds on Salvager. It's sort of a subtle card, and the one of the hard things to get a feel for when you're new is sacrificing the current turn for future benefit. I think what pushes me towards it, is that if someone builds a deck they don't like they can use Salvager to fix it. Having that option may prevent someone from tuning out and concluding they don't like the game.
You know what? Put Counting House in there. Someone will try it out and have an awesome turn with it (and probably a crappy turn or two).
-
Also, sea hag I think would work fine for a first trasher.
?
-
Also, sea hag I think would work fine for a first trasher.
?
Edit: Sea hag would work fine as an introduction to cursers and the curse card. My bad, I have no clue why I said trasher. Thanks for catching me on that.
-
I wouldn't introduce real attacks in the first game. the reason is that while you don't lack okay attacks, but you do lack straightforward defenses. This makes it hard to introduce them without the danger of frustration and/or confusion. What i would introduce in exchange is non-attack interaction. Normally i wouldn't recommend using Embargo in game one, but it allready gives them a grip to the dangers of curses before being directly attacked by them:
Embargo
Smugglers
Warehouse
Workers Village
Salvager
Armory
Explorer
Bazaar
Junk Dealer
Catacombs
The set also has trashing, sifting, villages, top-decking and gaining in the action phase. If you introduce Sea Hag in your second game and offer Watchtower as a defense, they allready know the value of trashing and of top-decking as well as the dangers of curses. Contraband is another interaction card, so i would consider adding it for game 2, too.
-
My suggestion for a diverse set of cards that people I play with, usually new players, find fun (not an easy selection to make...):
Pearl Diver - good to have a simple 2 on board
Sage, Smugglers - an intuitive sifter and an interactive gainer
Monument, Worker's Village - easy source of +buy, although Monument is perhaps questionable
Band of Misfits, Bandit Camp, Mystic, Rabble - cloning cards is fun and simple with these options, Spoils are cute, guessing is fun and Rabble, well, it's +cards and a weak enough attack not to have to introduce Lighthouse etc.
Altar - provides an obvious benefit to trashing
Other cards that almost made it:
Warehouse
Armory, Salvager
Hunting Grounds
-
My suggestion for a diverse set of cards that people I play with, usually new players, find fun (not an easy selection to make...):
Pearl Diver - good to have a simple 2 on board
Sage, Smugglers - an intuitive sifter and an interactive gainer
Monument, Worker's Village - easy source of +buy, although Monument is perhaps questionable
Band of Misfits, Bandit Camp, Mystic, Rabble - cloning cards is fun and simple with these options, Spoils are cute, guessing is fun and Rabble, well, it's +cards and a weak enough attack not to have to introduce Lighthouse etc.
Altar - provides an obvious benefit to trashing
Other cards that almost made it:
Warehouse
Armory, Salvager
Hunting Grounds
Not sure I'd put Band of Misfits in here; the choices may seem simple, but they will still slow things down significantly for new players, especially since they'll want to look over all the cards each time the would play it.
Pearl Diver is also somewhat meh...I'd maybe put in Vagrant in it's place, with a comment along the lines of "don't worry about what ruins, curses and shelters are, we'll get to them next game" at the start. It's probably slightly worse in these circumstances, but doesn't require a choice from the players (and Pearl Diver's choice is one of the least interesting in the game).
In general, avoid cards that involve decisions while playing them; new players are already making decisions when they buy things, and when they inevitably have clashing terminals and have to figure out which to play. No need to overwhelm them with more complexity. Incidentally, that's my main concern about Embargo, which is itself a tricky card.
I'd also avoid cards that do anomalous things. Monument stands out on your list for the VP tokens; you want them to associate VP with clogging your deck up, not with those little tokens. They can learn the exceptions later; for now stick to the basics of the game.
-
This is the one i commonly use:
Cellar
Village
Moneylender
Lab
Monument
Cutpurse
Adventurer
Workshop
Mine
Market
It has some of the same cards as the suggested first game set but with several differences:
Cutpurse is a less frustrating attack card than Militia.
Emphasizes trashing coppers, which is much more intuitive with Moneylender/Mine. Then players can see the value of Adventurer
Monument allows for a token strategy.
-
Other cards that almost made it:
Warehouse
Armory, Salvager
Hunting Grounds
I like the idea of Armory and Warehouse. Maybe they're easier at first than workshop and cellar, having the card you gain go right on top of your deck and learning to correctly select the cards you want to keep from a larger hand.
-
This is the one i commonly use:
Cellar
Village
Moneylender
Lab
Monument
Cutpurse
Adventurer
Workshop
Mine
Market
It has some of the same cards as the suggested first game set but with several differences:
Cutpurse is a less frustrating attack card than Militia.
Emphasizes trashing coppers, which is much more intuitive with Moneylender/Mine. Then players can see the value of Adventurer
Monument allows for a token strategy.
OP doesn't have Base, which is the origin of the conundrum. Otherwise you could just use the "First Game" kingdom, which is intentionally designed to show off everything, and does an excellent job of it.
Edit: I second your recommendation of Warehouse, as a good intro to sifting, but I'd hold off VP tokens like Monument, until they've played at least one game and seen how Green Cards clog up your deck.
-
Wow, Seaside, Prosperity and Dark Ages for beginners. That's a really a hard task. After the first game you will hopefully have the second one, so you need to introduce many concepts in the first game without completely overwhelming them with choices and edge cases.
Here are my design criteria:
1. Players' decks must improve gradually. No megaturns or crazy combos. In other words, effect of each card should be obvious. Engines should occur naturally, no traps.
2. No durations
In my experience, beginners tend to have problems with basic game mechanics, like when to shuffle, so durations are really unaceptable in the first game.
2. No attacks
Yes, attacks are an important aspect of Dominion, but keep in mind that if you're introducing the game IRL, it will probably be a 3+ player game where attacks will be very annoing. I don't see a simple counter like Moat in your sets.
4. At least one card at each price level. You don't want them to feel unlucky and they will always want to buy the most expensive card anyway.
5. Benefit of trashing must be obvious.
6. No alternative VP. KISS.
7. All vanilla bonuses should be introduced.
8. Big money shouldn't be a good strategy. There's nothing more annoying than losing to a begginer playing big money (been there).
Here's my deck:
- No shelters, no Colony.
- Grand Market.
This is the most complicated card in the deck. It requires the players to understand the concept of separate phases of playing treasures and buying cards. Normally I wouldn't recommend it with beginners, but you own Prosperity, you have to wipe out any misconceptions in this area quickly. On the plus side, Grand Market clearly states that Copper is bad.
- Bazar
- Catacombs
Engine parts which aren't usually a mistake. Coolnes of engines is naturally introduced.
- Mystic
I remember a beginner quickly grasping the idea of Wishing Well. This should be similar.
- Venture
Once someone understands Grand Market, he won't have problems with Venture.
- Armory
- Island
- Salvager
Terminals. This is the weakness of this kingdsom. I feel there should be more, but you don't have that many begginer friendly terminals in your sets.
- Lookout
Only one card for 3. This will help beginners avoid the mistake of not buying Silver.
- Vagrant
There must exist a card costing 2. It clearly wins with Pearl Diver by its simplicity.
-
So I've criticized various people's sets, I might as well add my 2 cents (with the caveat that I have limited experience w/ Dark Ages; indeed the 3 sets you have are the 3 big sets I don't own IRL).
I mostly agree with matste criteria, with the following exceptions:
a) I think it's important to at least introduce attacks, if only to avoid the "multiplayer solitaire" criticism.
b) Big Money should be a non-terrible strategy (although with something like Catacombs, which s/he has) while the winning strategy should ideally be a village-smithy engine (since that's the simplest conceptually, but seems really cool when you first see it, as well as indicating that money can be important).
So, my approach:
Beggar: a Reaction, and defends directly against Rogue. The fact that it gives 3 copper, costs 2 and has additional functionality will suggest that copper is not a great thing to gain, but at the same time it is a boost of $ when they inevitably clutter their decks with junk
Warehouse, Forager: a solid trasher and a sifter, to introduce the 2 key ways of dealing with junk. Will also help them recover if they overplay Beggar
Armory, Worker's Village, Salvager: a gainer, a village and another trasher. This set will be loaded with +buys
Bazaar, Catacombs, Rogue: Village which shows off the relative importance of +coin and +buy, a terminal draw card, and a non-insane attack (the must gain clause prevents it from trashing everybody's deck)
Altar: Reinforces the idea that trashing can be good, and gives a way to get those additional engine pieces. Plus, if they overbuy this, they at least have a way to get rid of it
-
2 3. No attacks
Yes, attacks are an important aspect of Dominion, but keep in mind that if you're introducing the game IRL, it will probably be a 3+ player game where attacks will be very annoing. I don't see a simple counter like Moat in your sets.
6. No alternative VP. KISS.
It's good, and important, that you can hinder your opponents as well as help yourself; from the OP's sets, I think Rabble is OK. It would be better if there was some attack that didn't stack, like Militia, which was in my first game. (Urchin/Mercenary is a bit complex.)
Not all alt-VP is "welcome to a game of bizarro-Dominion where Copper is good, and the Curses don't matter"; from the OP's sets, Island would be fine, or Feodum which isn't game-warping on most boards. I think the "in some games, sometimes, there are other ways to win" hint is nice to have.
-
My suggestion for a diverse set of cards that people I play with, usually new players, find fun (not an easy selection to make...):
Pearl Diver - good to have a simple 2 on board
Sage, Smugglers - an intuitive sifter and an interactive gainer
Monument, Worker's Village - easy source of +buy, although Monument is perhaps questionable
Band of Misfits, Bandit Camp, Mystic, Rabble - cloning cards is fun and simple with these options, Spoils are cute, guessing is fun and Rabble, well, it's +cards and a weak enough attack not to have to introduce Lighthouse etc.
Altar - provides an obvious benefit to trashing
Other cards that almost made it:
Warehouse
Armory, Salvager
Hunting Grounds
Not sure I'd put Band of Misfits in here; the choices may seem simple, but they will still slow things down significantly for new players, especially since they'll want to look over all the cards each time the would play it.
Pearl Diver is also somewhat meh...I'd maybe put in Vagrant in it's place, with a comment along the lines of "don't worry about what ruins, curses and shelters are, we'll get to them next game" at the start. It's probably slightly worse in these circumstances, but doesn't require a choice from the players (and Pearl Diver's choice is one of the least interesting in the game).
In general, avoid cards that involve decisions while playing them; new players are already making decisions when they buy things, and when they inevitably have clashing terminals and have to figure out which to play. No need to overwhelm them with more complexity. Incidentally, that's my main concern about Embargo, which is itself a tricky card.
I'd also avoid cards that do anomalous things. Monument stands out on your list for the VP tokens; you want them to associate VP with clogging your deck up, not with those little tokens. They can learn the exceptions later; for now stick to the basics of the game.
I'd agree that you want to avoid cards with difficult decisions, but decisions in themselves can add some life to the game. Embargo is a culprit here because you have to anticipate what cards your opponents will want to buy at what stage of the game - and that is too much on your first game. However, with Band of Misfits (and Pearl Diver) it is more a case of 'what do I want right now', and I've found that new players don't find that too difficult to grasp.
I'm not entirely happy with that kingdom though, especially Monument and Worker's Village.
Other cards that almost made it:
Warehouse
Armory, Salvager
Hunting Grounds
I like the idea of Armory and Warehouse. Maybe they're easier at first than workshop and cellar, having the card you gain go right on top of your deck and learning to correctly select the cards you want to keep from a larger hand.
They are pretty fun cards for a first game, but there is the inevitable question with Warehouse of 'do I draw three, play another action card and then discard three'. Also, with gainers like Armory and Mine it can also get confusing since you have to remember that the gained card doesn't go in the usual place.
- No shelters, no Colony.
- Grand Market.
- Bazar
- Catacombs
- Mystic
- Venture
- Armory
- Island
- Salvager
- Lookout
- Vagrant
I like this especially Catacombs. Grand Market, Island and Lookout are interesting (risky?) choices. My personal bias says Pearl Diver instead of Vagrant since you haven't introduced ruins etc., and it also combos with Mystic.
Beggar: a Reaction, and defends directly against Rogue. The fact that it gives 3 copper, costs 2 and has additional functionality will suggest that copper is not a great thing to gain, but at the same time it is a boost of $ when they inevitably clutter their decks with junk
Warehouse, Forager: a solid trasher and a sifter, to introduce the 2 key ways of dealing with junk. Will also help them recover if they overplay Beggar
Armory, Worker's Village, Salvager: a gainer, a village and another trasher. This set will be loaded with +buys
Bazaar, Catacombs, Rogue: Village which shows off the relative importance of +coin and +buy, a terminal draw card, and a non-insane attack (the must gain clause prevents it from trashing everybody's deck)
Altar: Reinforces the idea that trashing can be good, and gives a way to get those additional engine pieces. Plus, if they overbuy this, they at least have a way to get rid of it
I don't like Rogue here. I'd save cards that gain from the trash until much later, just to preserve the enjoyment of introducing this unique feature. Also, the interaction with Beggar might be a bit confusing. Beggar in itself, particularly along with Altar and other trash/sift could be good though. Ghost Ship might be an interesting alternative to Rogue, given Beggar. With all the +buy you could probably cut Salvager or Worker's Village due to duplicated basic effects, not sure what you'd introduce instead.
-
Ghost Ship
Absolutely not, this card is no fun for beginners, especially in multiplayer.
-
I disagree with having Rabble in a first game set. A player in her first game is still getting used to the idea of the Action/Buy/Cleanup gameflow, and forcing her to do lots of shuffling outside of her turn is going to very offputting.
Also, Cutpurse is not a milder attack than Militia in a multiplayer game.
-
Let's look at the recommended base set "First Game" as a model:
It has:
Cellar (strong trasher)
Moat (reaction)
Village (village)
Woodcutter (terminal silver)
Workshop (card gainer)
Militia (handsize attack)
Remodel (TFB)
Smithy (+cards)
Market (market)
Mine (TFB)
It's hard to make a beginner friendly set following that model out of what you've got, but I'd probably try something like:
Pearl Diver ($2)
Squire ($2)
Warehouse ($3)
Armory ($4)
Salvager ($4)
Worker's Village ($4)
Bazaar ($5)
Mint ($5)
Rabble ($5)
Hunting Grounds ($6)
I've found that most beginners overbuy actions, so having extra non-terminals or village options helps to keep their decks from stalling out and hyper-cluttering. More fun for them if they aren't sitting there staring at a hand full of terminals, so half of these are non-terminal, three of them with +2 actions (optional on Squire). This should help avoid stalling.
The other common mistake is not having money, so there need to be ways for them to have money, even if they buy mostly actions. However, there aren't many simple +$ cards in those sets -- Squire and Bazaar being some of the best examples.
I also wanted both an Attack and an engine opportunity. Rabble isn't an ideal attack for this deck, but it is pretty simple and not as damaging as most of the other attacks in these decks.
I know Hunting Grounds may be an odd, and very powerful choice, but I wanted it to be possible to demonstrate the power of an engine without having to buy a bunch of Rabbles and continually attacking opponents to keep an engine running.
And having Mint on the board allows you to demonstrate the power of trashing a bunch of coppers to reduce handsize.
Anyway, I think this would be well worth trying. Hope it goes well getting a new group hooked.
-
One idea I just had that may help -- normally, I set up boards with Kingdom cards in one area and Victory and Treasure cards arranged separately.
For beginners, it might help to at least arrange the treasure cards alongside the kingdom in a way that still keeps them distinct, but to help stress that, for instance, at the $3 price point, you should consider buying Silver.
Dunno if this would help players, but might reduce them forgetting about coils altogether.
-
Pearl Diver ($2)
Squire ($2)
Warehouse ($3)
Armory ($4)
Salvager ($4)
Worker's Village ($4)
Bazaar ($5)
Mint ($5)
Rabble ($5)
Hunting Grounds ($6)
I like this one, but I'd probably prefer Wandering Minstrel to Worker's Village, so you can get an engine even without too much trashing, and even maybe have it semi-counter mass Rabble Warehouse does both these things well enough probably, but why not have more cards do it. You don't need 3 cards with +buy.
Also, maybe Watchtower instead of Hunting Grounds, since there's enough villages and money-giving actions to maybe make the draw-to-X thing work. Plus then you have a reaction, which though it doesn't stop the attack of Rabble, helps with the too-many terminals problem, since it can be used on your buy. Plus it helps get more cheap cards, which is nice when people don't know how to properly build economy.
The other alternative is replace Hunting Grounds with Catacombs so you get your non-attacking drawer at only $5, and then replace Rabble with Pillage, which is a more obviously painful attack. This might not leave enough drawing with Catacombs as the only drawer, so you might still want to squeeze in Watchtower, maybe if you're willing to lose Pearl Diver. But then again, maybe people don't like the one-shot nature of Pillage, and you might get into the whole Mint a Spoils thing, so it might not be worth it.
This gives you:
Pearl Diver, Squire, Warehouse, Watchtower, Armory, Salvager, Wandering Minstrel, Bazaar, Mint, Rabble
or
Squire, Warehouse, Watchtower, Armory, Salvager, Wandering Minstrel, Bazaar, Mint, Catacombs, Pillage
-
Cellar (strong trasher)
Does that make Warehouse the most powerful trasher in the game? ;)
-
And having Mint on the board allows you to demonstrate the power of trashing a bunch of coppers to reduce handsize.
I'd avoid Mint for the first game, if only for the one guy who lucks into a 5-2 opening, and then opens Mint. While Squire makes this not entirely unrecoverable, it can still be a difficult mistake to climb back from.
-
And having Mint on the board allows you to demonstrate the power of trashing a bunch of coppers to reduce handsize.
I'd avoid Mint for the first game, if only for the one guy who lucks into a 5-2 opening, and then opens Mint. While Squire makes this not entirely unrecoverable, it can still be a difficult mistake to climb back from.
Online, sure. In-person, I would hope you would warn newish players or let them take that move back once they realize what they've done. I bring it up because usually when people are trying to introduce someone to the game it is in person anyway.
-
I think "trashing is good" is the message you want to give; "you don't want to trash those 5 Coppers" is contradictory to that, obviously it's a valid exception, but here they'll be learning the exception before the rule.
-
Just a reminder, people - we're talking about a First Game.
You should not in the slightest care whether people come out with any ideas about good strategy. It doesn't matter whether they get the idea that trashing is good or that trashing is useless, that actions are good or bad or treasures are good or bad or whatever. If they come out with the opinion that "+Buy with Counting House" is an unstoppable combo, that's fine!
The point isn't to teach strategy. They can think about strategy later, when (if!) they decide they actually like the game enough to care about how to be good at it.
-
Online, sure. In-person, I would hope you would warn newish players or let them take that move back once they realize what they've done. I bring it up because usually when people are trying to introduce someone to the game it is in person anyway.
Right, but you don't want somebody's first experience with Dominion to be:
Them: "Hmm, all these cards to buy... I'll try... that one!"
You: "No, don't do that one, you'll screw yourself over because of [rules stuff]"
First game shouldn't give an opportunity for someone to screw up their deck, because having someone hover over your shoulder and tell you what to do is annoying and you should try to minimize that.
-
Some good comments -- thinking back to my first game, you're right -- it's not about teaching best strategy (to most people); first game is about letting people have fun.
To that end, here's a revised kingdom that I think is probably more "fun" for beginners:
Pearl Diver ($2)
Squire ($2)
Sage ($3)
Smugglers ($3)
Salvager ($4)
Worker's Village ($4)
Bazaar ($5)
Rabble ($5)
Venture ($5)
Grand Market ($6)
-
Online, sure. In-person, I would hope you would warn newish players or let them take that move back once they realize what they've done. I bring it up because usually when people are trying to introduce someone to the game it is in person anyway.
Right, but you don't want somebody's first experience with Dominion to be:
Them: "Hmm, all these cards to buy... I'll try... that one!"
You: "No, don't do that one, you'll screw yourself over because of [rules stuff]"
First game shouldn't give an opportunity for someone to screw up their deck, because having someone hover over your shoulder and tell you what to do is annoying and you should try to minimize that.
Fair enough. I wasn't really trying to say Mint should be included in a first game. I don't think the scenario you described above is all that likely though. New players are usually really averse to trashing anything. You remind them about the trashing and they go "I have to do what?" and you let them take it back. No hovering or lengthy explanations needed.
-
You might want to stick with Seaside. Especially if you are going to play several games in row. Not many people like playing all different cards for every one of their first 5 games -- it's too steep a learning curve to learn what all those cards do and begin to strategize well.
Your main goal the first game is to teach the basic mechanics and have fun. That's it. They're still getting used to the idea of building a deck. No Sea Hag (no Shelters, no Goons, no KC, no Knights, no cards not in the supply). No slogs. For whatever reason, the people I teach have no problems with durations, so they seem okay in a first game.
How about these pure Seaside kingdoms for the first two games (they share a lot of cards, but I think would play out pretty differently):
Bazaar, Explorer, Wharf, Caravan, Salvager, Cutpurse, Navigator, Warehouse, Smugglers, Pearl Diver
Bazaar, Treasury, Merchant Ship, Caravan, Cutpurse, Treasure Map, Island, Salvager, Fishing Village, Lighthouse
"High Seas" might be a good third game:
Bazaar, Explorer, Wharf, Caravan, Island, Pirate Ship, Lookout, Smugglers, Embargo, Haven
The other two recommended Seaside kingdoms would be good next. Then on to full random with in the expansion.
That should fill a night of Dominion easily.
-
So, we played a couple of games with one of the sets of friends. Not entirely sure how they enjoyed it, but here were (best as I can recall) the 2 kingdoms we used:
Game 1:
Cutpurse
Lighthouse
Armory
Worker's Village
Smugglers
Pearl Diver
Talisman
Bazaar
Market Square (?)
Salvager (?)
Game 2:
Beggar
Warehouse
Storeroom
?
So no, I don't remember all that well . . .
But it seemed to go well. Game 1, we 3-piled before anyone had bought a province (I came in last place by virtue of having trashed an estate.) But they picked up on the rules fairly well. The second game, the presence of beggar, and the fact that 3 of the 4 players were playing it a lot, led to a non-kingdom treasure pile running out for the first time in a game I have played.
So I think that we had a good selection of cards, that introduced the most basic elements without getting too complicated.
-
The second game, the presence of beggar, and the fact that 3 of the 4 players were playing it a lot, led to a non-kingdom treasure pile running out for the first time in a game I have played.
I had that happen in one of the first half-dozen games I played, but Trader was the culprit. That realization that "what? WHAT? Everything can turn into SILVERS? One silver can turn into THREE silvers? None of us knew what we were doing, and were trashing silvers for silvers, traders for silvers, everything else for silvers... Silvers were the first pile to go. Was pretty funny in retrospect.
Upside was that we all had plenty of money to start greening. If I remember correctly, that game was actually won by the friend who picked up a couple of Harems that gave him the edge when the provinces split.
-
Here is my suggestion:
- $7: Bank
- $6: Altar
- $5: Bazaar
- $4: Cutpurse, Salvager, Worker's Village
- $3: Warehouse, Sage, Smugglers
- $2: Vagrant
No durations. Simple cards to understand. There is an attack, but not devastating, as well as Smugglers to avoid the solitaire feeling. Bank may be the simplest card to make clear that yes, you actually play your treasure cards.
-
Yeah, the original question has been asked and answered. Whatever. Here's my approach to the problem:
Let's assume that the "first game" kingdom is good for beginners and that in that set, each card fits some sort of role. Now, from those assumptions, we can claim that a mix of roles of that sort is good for beginners. Then, we can identify the roles filled and find replacements for each:
Roles:
Moat - Stops attacks
Cellar - Sifting
Village - Play multiple terminals
Workshop - Gainer
Woodcutter - + Buy
Smithy - Terminal draw
Remodel - Trashing for more expensive cards
Militia - Attack
Mine - Trashing treasures (you could argue that it's a remodel-type card, but I don't want 2 of those)
Market - Cantrip
Now, a possible replacement for each, going for fairly simple cards is:
Attack Stopper - Lighthouse
Sifter - Warehouse
Village - Worker's village
Gainer - Armory
+Buy - Trade Route
Terminal draw - Catacombs
Remodel-style trashing - Expand
Attack - Cutpurse
Treasure Trashing - Loan
Cantrip - Peddler
Despite many of the cards being simple, the board actually looks a little more complex, with some good potential for a WV - Catacombs engine, with trashing from Loan and some Peddler support. With an aggressive player, this board could be quite punishing for new players, but in a game of all newbies, or with any experienced players just playing Catacombs - BM, I don't think it would get much more punishing than the first game.
-
There is an attack, but not devastating,
Don't play a 4-player game with Cutpurse. It's quite devastating.
-
Also, I think the point of moat is to be a reaction, not an attack stopper.
-
And you left Cellar in the new set, which the OP does not have.
-
I've found that adding Council Room to a starting Kingdom to be helpful for beginners' games with 3 or 4 players, since it usually results in everyone getting lots of cards in their hands and being able to ramp up in power and do cool things fairly quickly. Here's a set that is close to what I've used for teaching with 4 players in the past:
Lighthouse ($2)
Courtyard ($2)
Steward ($3)
Warehouse ($3)
Thief ($4)
Worker's Village ($4)
Upgrade ($5)
Council Room ($5)
Festival ($5)
Nobles ($6)
-
Are you guys no longer following the OP, who says he does not have base?
-
And you left Cellar in the new set, which the OP does not have.
Yeah, I totally meant to put Warehouse there. Messed up on that one.