Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: AJD on June 23, 2013, 10:20:42 am
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It seems to be a common misconception that Intrigue has "a lot of Attacks". Like, in this (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/995668/dominion-expansion-recommendation-for-casual-unsop) what-expansion-should-I-buy thread, the poster says maybe he shouldn't get Intrigue, because "there are so many attack cards"; I feel like this happens a lot.
But Intrigue has fewer Attacks than either vanilla Dominion or Seaside (or Dark Ages)! It has the same number as Cornucopia (if you count Followers) or Hinterlands (if you count Ill-Gotten Gains).
I guess when people think Intrigue has "so many Attack cards", what they're really thinking of is how Intrigue has the most annoying attack cards: two trashing attacks (which as Donald has said people don't seem to like much), the only discard-your-whole-hand attack (which means it's harder to plan your upcoming turn), and the aptly-named Torturer. So their estimate of the number and severity of Attacks in Intrigue is thrown off by their memory of the emotional response to those Attacks, I guess.
Meanwhile, as usual, the consensus of the thread was that the expansion he should get to play with his friends who don't like Attack cards is the one that includes Ambassador, Ghost Ship, and Sea Hag.
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Hey, you're counting Spy and Bureacrat as attacks. Isn't that cheating?
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You have forgotten Scout for self attack.
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If you're going to count Followers and Ill-Gotten Gains, you should probably include Masquerade, which often feels like an attack.
But, your larger point is spot on. If you count Masquerade, Intrigue has 4 of the strongest attacks at their cost (Masq, Swindler, Torturer, and Minion). Compared to Bureaucrat, Spy, and Thief, these cards are much more important and strong.
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...Although the reason Minion is a strong Action card isn't because it's an Attack; it'd be plenty strong even if it didn't have the attack component. So I'm not sure it's all that true to call it a "strong Attack"; as an Attack, it's no stronger than Militia. Saboteur likewise is way more annoying than strong.
And yes, I think the fact that Intrigue has both Masquerade and also Tribute, two non-Attacks that people sometimes wish they hadn't been hit by, contributes to its feeling of having a lot of Attacks.
(I disagree with you on "if you're going to count Followers and Ill-Gotten Gains, you should probably include Masquerade," though.)
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Masquerade is beneficiary to the opponent, because once you've trashed your Estates, your Masquerade is replacing their Estates with your Coppers which is good for them. It shouldn't count as an attack.
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Masquerade is beneficiary to the opponent, because once you've trashed your Estates, your Masquerade is replacing their Estates with your Coppers which is good for them. It shouldn't count as an attack.
Is really hard to imagine someone winning a game without Masquerade against an opponent with Masquerade. Many (if not all) attacks can benefit the opponent. Discard attacks can trigger Tunnel or Menagerie and Minion and Ghost Ship (against Rebuild for instance) can even improve your current hand, trashing attacks can give you on-trash benefit or Market Square (or can even directly trash unwanted cards, like a Sea Hag after Curses are gone, or early Swindled Duchies) and junking attacks can build up Gardens, Silk Road or Fairgrounds.
Likewise, penalties that are supposed to benefit the opponent can even be harmful, Silvers from Embassy can gum up engines, especially in Colony games, and Council Room or Soothsayer extra card can trigger unwanted reshuffles or mess up your activated Menageries or your Rebuild or Doctor or Herald plays.
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Masquerade is beneficiary to the opponent, because once you've trashed your Estates, your Masquerade is replacing their Estates with your Coppers which is good for them. It shouldn't count as an attack.
Is really hard to imagine someone winning a game without Masquerade against an opponent with Masquerade.
The same goes for Rebuild, but it doesn't feel like an attack.
I don't think Masquerade is powerful because it junks the opponent up a little. It's powerful because it draws and trashes. If a player doesn't go for Masquerade, he will have more Estates, but that also means he will pass them back while you're passing him Copper. "+2 cards, you may trash a card from your hand" would be a great $3, and Masq is only a little better than that.
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...Although the reason Minion is a strong Action card isn't because it's an Attack; it'd be plenty strong even if it didn't have the attack component. So I'm not sure it's all that true to call it a "strong Attack"; as an Attack, it's no stronger than Militia. Saboteur likewise is way more annoying than strong.
I would say that Minion is usually stronger than Militia. It's random 4 vs. best 3/5. Depends on the stage of the game though, I suppose.
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Intrigue actually has some of the weakest cards. It is certainly the least powerful set.
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Intrigue actually has some of the weakest cards. It is certainly the least powerful set.
I dispute the "certainly". Intrigue's power level is very similar to Base's power level. Intrigue has some stinkers, but so does Base.
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Masquerade is beneficiary to the opponent, because once you've trashed your Estates, your Masquerade is replacing their Estates with your Coppers which is good for them. It shouldn't count as an attack.
Is really hard to imagine someone winning a game without Masquerade against an opponent with Masquerade.
The same goes for Rebuild, but it doesn't feel like an attack.
I don't think Masquerade is powerful because it junks the opponent up a little. It's powerful because it draws and trashes. If a player doesn't go for Masquerade, he will have more Estates, but that also means he will pass them back while you're passing him Copper. "+2 cards, you may trash a card from your hand" would be a great $3, and Masq is only a little better than that.
The mere presence of a village and discard attack in the kingdom makes Masq seem like an attack. Oh, I have to discard my two worst cards? Hmm, maybe I shouldn't, considering I might have to pass something on an upcoming Masq...
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Masquerade is beneficiary to the opponent, because once you've trashed your Estates, your Masquerade is replacing their Estates with your Coppers which is good for them. It shouldn't count as an attack.
Is really hard to imagine someone winning a game without Masquerade against an opponent with Masquerade.
The same goes for Rebuild, but it doesn't feel like an attack.
I don't think Masquerade is powerful because it junks the opponent up a little. It's powerful because it draws and trashes. If a player doesn't go for Masquerade, he will have more Estates, but that also means he will pass them back while you're passing him Copper. "+2 cards, you may trash a card from your hand" would be a great $3, and Masq is only a little better than that.
The mere presence of a village and discard attack in the kingdom makes Masq seem like an attack. Oh, I have to discard my two worst cards? Hmm, maybe I shouldn't, considering I might have to pass something on an upcoming Masq...
The attack that you are feeling is the discard attack. ;)
Seriously though, Masq might make discard attacks sting more, but Masq itself is still not an attack.
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Masquerade is beneficiary to the opponent, because once you've trashed your Estates, your Masquerade is replacing their Estates with your Coppers which is good for them. It shouldn't count as an attack.
Is really hard to imagine someone winning a game without Masquerade against an opponent with Masquerade.
The same goes for Rebuild, but it doesn't feel like an attack.
I don't think Masquerade is powerful because it junks the opponent up a little. It's powerful because it draws and trashes. If a player doesn't go for Masquerade, he will have more Estates, but that also means he will pass them back while you're passing him Copper. "+2 cards, you may trash a card from your hand" would be a great $3, and Masq is only a little better than that.
The mere presence of a village and discard attack in the kingdom makes Masq seem like an attack. Oh, I have to discard my two worst cards? Hmm, maybe I shouldn't, considering I might have to pass something on an upcoming Masq...
The attack that you are feeling is the discard attack. ;)
Seriously though, Masq might make discard attacks sting more, but Masq itself is still not an attack.
Also, the only discard attack in Intrigue is Torturer, where taking the Curse is sometimes the better move if Masquerade us in the table.
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Intrigue actually has some of the weakest cards. It is certainly the least powerful set.
I actually went through the Qvist ratings on the wiki (ignoring alchemy cards and promos) and looked at the cards in the top and bottom quintile in each list, rounded up. Each of the sets had as many good and bad cards total, with 3 exceptions:
1. Prosperity (net 1 poor card, a deficit that will be made up when the 6+ list comes out)
2. Cornucopia (net 4 strong cards)
3. Base (net 6 (!) poor cards; only 3 cards made the top quintile from base, one of which was militia).
Now the relative strengths of the lists may not be uniform (I expect that Scout is much worse than the average $4 card compared to how Chancellor ranks with the average $3), but we forget that Intrigue has cards like Courtyard, Masquerade and Swindler to counter stinkers like Scout and Saboteur.