Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: werothegreat on June 16, 2013, 03:34:44 pm
-
Here's something interesting - why do we have "discard a card" as a thing? Why not have that written as "-1 Card"? It makes a certain amount of sense - +Card indicates you're adding to your hand from your deck; -Card would indicate you're subtracting from your hand into your discard pile. If it written like this, a lot of cards would suddenly become "vanilla":
Warehouse: +1 Action, +3 Cards, -3 Cards
Embassy: +5 Cards, -3 Cards
Oasis: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1, -1 Card
And a lot of other cards shorten a little bit.
Thinking about it, there are plenty of cards out there that say "discard any number of cards" or "discard your hand", limiting the usefulness, and it might get confused with trashing. Or maybe Donald X just didn't want minus signs (until Poor House).
-
One big thing I can see is:
What happens when you get, say, +$1, then -$1? Intuitively, nothing. What about +1 action, then -1 action? Again, nothing. How about +1 buy, then -1 buy? Nothing. +1 VP, -1 VP? No change. +1 card, -1 card? You've drawn a card and then discarded a card. So one card has moved from your deck to your hand, and another (possibly the same) has move from your hand to your discard. I think it's that asymmetry between the two that makes it a little more awkward, and why it isn't used.
-
It would make a certain amount of sense and look cleaner, but Tables has a point. I suppose that Action/Buy/Coin are 'commutative', in that you could add and subtract them in whatever order and the net effect would be the same (with the caveat that 'not less than zero coins' is explicitly stated when it could happen, e.g. -$1 +$1). By contrast, -1 card +1 card is totally different to +1 card -1 card. However that isn't really an argument for not writing it as -cards... but you would still probably prefer to say 'discard' when for instance you -cards down to n, just like you say 'draw' when you +cards up to n.
-
This is confusing. "-1 card" makes more sense for topdecking a card from your hand, not discarding a card.
-
Donald used this very notation in Nefarious, along with using symbols.
-
In Dominion, discard is often paired with a lot of different descriptors - "discard down to 3 cards in hand" "discard X cards" "discard a [particular card]" "discard from play" or "discard any number of cards". There aren't THAT many cards that have a vanilla "discard X cards" effect. Specifically, there aren't any at all in Base Dominion I think? In Intrigue, there's only Torturer? In Seaside, there's only Warehouse? Maybe I missed one or two, but it really is sort of rare. Nowhere near as common as "+X actions" or "+$X".
-
I think it's wrong to start using - for something that is not the inverse of +.
There are a bunch of things that actually could simplify cards, but you should target wordy cards, not Warehouse and Embassy. For example, you could define "dig for ___" as "reveal cards from your deck until you reveal ___; discard the rest" - this would save this mechanic from having to be defined individually on each of Saboteur, Fortune Teller, Farming Village, Hunting Party, Sage, Rebuild, Loan and Venture.
-
I think it's wrong to start using - for something that is not the inverse of +.
There are a bunch of things that actually could simplify cards, but you should target wordy cards, not Warehouse and Embassy. For example, you could define "dig for ___" as "reveal cards from your deck until you reveal ___; discard the rest" - this would save this mechanic from having to be defined individually on each of Saboteur, Fortune Teller, Farming Village, Hunting Party, Sage, Rebuild, Loan and Venture.
And golem.
-
And adventurer.
-
It could easily be misinterpreted as "trash a card."
-
In Dominion, discard is often paired with a lot of different descriptors - "discard down to 3 cards in hand" "discard X cards" "discard a [particular card]" "discard from play" or "discard any number of cards". There aren't THAT many cards that have a vanilla "discard X cards" effect. Specifically, there aren't any at all in Base Dominion I think? In Intrigue, there's only Torturer? In Seaside, there's only Warehouse? Maybe I missed one or two, but it really is sort of rare. Nowhere near as common as "+X actions" or "+$X".
Also, Torturer makes opponents discard, which would still be "each other player discards", see Council Room.
Dsell: Those people who interpret -1 card as "trash a card" are probably the same people who interpret +1 card as "gain any card from the supply", so that's probably not very important.
-
In Dominion, discard is often paired with a lot of different descriptors - "discard down to 3 cards in hand" "discard X cards" "discard a [particular card]" "discard from play" or "discard any number of cards". There aren't THAT many cards that have a vanilla "discard X cards" effect. Specifically, there aren't any at all in Base Dominion I think? In Intrigue, there's only Torturer? In Seaside, there's only Warehouse? Maybe I missed one or two, but it really is sort of rare. Nowhere near as common as "+X actions" or "+$X".
Also, Torturer makes opponents discard, which would still be "each other player discards", see Council Room.
Dsell: Those people who interpret -1 card as "trash a card" are probably the same people who interpret +1 card as "gain any card from the supply", so that's probably not very important.
Sure, but Donald and RGG have to think about new players as well. "Discard a card" is not ambiguous.
-
In Dominion, discard is often paired with a lot of different descriptors - "discard down to 3 cards in hand" "discard X cards" "discard a [particular card]" "discard from play" or "discard any number of cards". There aren't THAT many cards that have a vanilla "discard X cards" effect. Specifically, there aren't any at all in Base Dominion I think? In Intrigue, there's only Torturer? In Seaside, there's only Warehouse? Maybe I missed one or two, but it really is sort of rare. Nowhere near as common as "+X actions" or "+$X".
Also, Torturer makes opponents discard, which would still be "each other player discards", see Council Room.
Dsell: Those people who interpret -1 card as "trash a card" are probably the same people who interpret +1 card as "gain any card from the supply", so that's probably not very important.
Sure, but Donald and RGG have to think about new players as well. "Discard a card" is not ambiguous.
"Draw a card" is less ambiguous than +1 Card.
-
What about differentiating between discarding during play and "discarding" during clean-up?
And how do you phrase Tunnel with a - notation? Or other "and discard from your hand" style things?
-
Seems to be a definite difference. Drawing from the top of your deck is so commonplace that "+1 card" makes sense. In fact, you do it five times every turn. (You do not "draw your hand", you take +1 cards five times.) The other ways to put cards in your hand (Counting House, Mine, Beggar, IGG, etc.) are infrequent and specialized. Discarding and getting things out of your hand, on the other hand (heh), is extremely varied. You can discard from your hand, you can play from your hand, you can place cards from your hand on top of your deck, other players can discard a card for your, other players can make you discard cards of your choice, you can discard cards from play, you can discard cards from the top of your deck, you can place cards from your deck into the discard pile (not discarding), etc. You can also trash cards. (Why not make "-1 card" mean trash?) Many cards respond to discarding with special rules (e.g., Tunnel). I feel like "-1 card" just isn't precise enough.
It also breaks some symmetry. +1 Card is always a face-down card from the top of your deck. You don't get to choose it (though you could have set it up to be a particular card). If -1 card meant discarding from hand, then you have to make a choice about what card. And you discard to the discard pile, not to the top of your deck. The actions are actually different, not simply the reverse of one another. And as I believe someone else mentioned: for any way you define "-1 card", it does not hold that +1 card -1 card = -1 card +1 card, so commutivity is broken as well.
Edit: Oh, also, you can discard your hand, but you can't draw your hand. Or at least they're not the same. Discarding your hand during cleanup allows you to discard in any order you want. (Or do you discard simultaneously with any rearrangement you want?) During your cleanup phase, you draw five new cards, one at a time.
-
What about differentiating between discarding during play and "discarding" during clean-up?
And how do you phrase Tunnel with a - notation? Or other "and discard from your hand" style things?
"If you minus this card..."
*shudder*
-
Seems to be a definite difference. Drawing from the top of your deck is so commonplace that "+1 card" makes sense. In fact, you do it five times every turn. (You do not "draw your hand", you take +1 cards five times.) The other ways to put cards in your hand (Counting House, Mine, Beggar, IGG, etc.) are infrequent and specialized. Discarding and getting things out of your hand, on the other hand (heh), is extremely varied. You can discard from your hand, you can play from your hand, you can place cards from your hand on top of your deck, other players can discard a card for your, other players can make you discard cards of your choice, you can discard cards from play, you can discard cards from the top of your deck, you can place cards from your deck into the discard pile (not discarding), etc. You can also trash cards. (Why not make "-1 card" mean trash?) Many cards respond to discarding with special rules (e.g., Tunnel). I feel like "-1 card" just isn't precise enough.
It also breaks some symmetry. +1 Card is always a face-down card from the top of your deck. You don't get to choose it (though you could have set it up to be a particular card). If -1 card meant discarding from hand, then you have to make a choice about what card. And you discard to the discard pile, not to the top of your deck. The actions are actually different, not simply the reverse of one another. And as I believe someone else mentioned: for any way you define "-1 card", it does not hold that +1 card -1 card = -1 card +1 card, so commutivity is broken as well.
Edit: Oh, also, you can discard your hand, but you can't draw your hand. Or at least they're not the same. Discarding your hand during cleanup allows you to discard in any order you want. (Or do you discard simultaneously with any rearrangement you want?) During your cleanup phase, you draw five new cards, one at a time.
+1 for having exactly 100 respect.
-
I am pretty sure the main reason is that there is not a single card in the base game where -X cards on it makes any sense.
-
Seems to be a definite difference. Drawing from the top of your deck is so commonplace that "+1 card" makes sense. In fact, you do it five times every turn. (You do not "draw your hand", you take +1 cards five times.) The other ways to put cards in your hand (Counting House, Mine, Beggar, IGG, etc.) are infrequent and specialized. Discarding and getting things out of your hand, on the other hand (heh), is extremely varied. You can discard from your hand, you can play from your hand, you can place cards from your hand on top of your deck, other players can discard a card for your, other players can make you discard cards of your choice, you can discard cards from play, you can discard cards from the top of your deck, you can place cards from your deck into the discard pile (not discarding), etc. You can also trash cards. (Why not make "-1 card" mean trash?) Many cards respond to discarding with special rules (e.g., Tunnel). I feel like "-1 card" just isn't precise enough.
It also breaks some symmetry. +1 Card is always a face-down card from the top of your deck. You don't get to choose it (though you could have set it up to be a particular card). If -1 card meant discarding from hand, then you have to make a choice about what card. And you discard to the discard pile, not to the top of your deck. The actions are actually different, not simply the reverse of one another. And as I believe someone else mentioned: for any way you define "-1 card", it does not hold that +1 card -1 card = -1 card +1 card, so commutivity is broken as well.
Edit: Oh, also, you can discard your hand, but you can't draw your hand. Or at least they're not the same. Discarding your hand during cleanup allows you to discard in any order you want. (Or do you discard simultaneously with any rearrangement you want?) During your cleanup phase, you draw five new cards, one at a time.
+1 for having exactly 100 respect.
(http://i.qkme.me/3uvwqa.jpg)
-
Seems to be a definite difference. Drawing from the top of your deck is so commonplace that "+1 card" makes sense. In fact, you do it five times every turn. (You do not "draw your hand", you take +1 cards five times.) The other ways to put cards in your hand (Counting House, Mine, Beggar, IGG, etc.) are infrequent and specialized. Discarding and getting things out of your hand, on the other hand (heh), is extremely varied. You can discard from your hand, you can play from your hand, you can place cards from your hand on top of your deck, other players can discard a card for your, other players can make you discard cards of your choice, you can discard cards from play, you can discard cards from the top of your deck, you can place cards from your deck into the discard pile (not discarding), etc. You can also trash cards. (Why not make "-1 card" mean trash?) Many cards respond to discarding with special rules (e.g., Tunnel). I feel like "-1 card" just isn't precise enough.
It also breaks some symmetry. +1 Card is always a face-down card from the top of your deck. You don't get to choose it (though you could have set it up to be a particular card). If -1 card meant discarding from hand, then you have to make a choice about what card. And you discard to the discard pile, not to the top of your deck. The actions are actually different, not simply the reverse of one another. And as I believe someone else mentioned: for any way you define "-1 card", it does not hold that +1 card -1 card = -1 card +1 card, so commutivity is broken as well.
Edit: Oh, also, you can discard your hand, but you can't draw your hand. Or at least they're not the same. Discarding your hand during cleanup allows you to discard in any order you want. (Or do you discard simultaneously with any rearrangement you want?) During your cleanup phase, you draw five new cards, one at a time.
+1 for having exactly 100 respect.
(http://i.qkme.me/3uvwqa.jpg)
+1 for your 100th post. And you can't complain about it without going to 101!