Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Dominion: Guilds Previews => Topic started by: philosophyguy on June 13, 2013, 10:46:53 am
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TAXMAN
Cost 4
Action - Attack
You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a copy of it (or reveals a hand without it). Gain a Treasure card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card, putting it on top of your deck.
STONEMASON
Cost 2+
Action
Trash a card from your hand, Gain 2 cards each costing less than it.
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When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Action cards each costing the amount you overpaid.
PLAZA
Cost 4
Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
You may discard a Treasure card. If you do, take a Coin token.
SOOTHSAYER
Cost 5
Action - Attack
Gain a Gold. Each other player gains a Curse. Each player who did draws a card.
MASTERPIECE
Cost 3+
Treasure
$1
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When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain a Silver per $1 you overpaid.
MERCHANT GUILD
Cost 5
Action
+1 Buy
+$1
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While this is in play, when you buy a card, take a Coin token.
CANDLESTICK MAKER
Cost 2
Action
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Take a Coin Token
ADVISOR
Cost 4
Action
+1 Action
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. The player to your left chooses one of them. Discard that card. Put the other cards into your hand.
Already known:
BAKER
Cost 5
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Take a Coin token.
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Setup: Each player takes a Coin token.
DOCTOR
Cost 3+
Action
Name a card. Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Trash the matches. Put the rest back on top in any order.
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When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, look at the top card of your deck; trash it, discard it, or put it back.
JOURNEYMAN
Cost 5
Action
Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 3 cards that are not the named card. Put those cards into your hand and discard the rest.
BUTCHER
Cost 5
Take 2 Coin tokens. You may trash a card from your hand and then pay any number of Coin tokens. If you did trash a card, gain a card with a cost of up to the cost of the trashed card plus the number of Coin tokens you paid.
HERALD
Cost 4+
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of your deck. If it is an Action, play it.
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When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, look through your discard pile and put a card from it on top of your deck.
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Well Masterpiece + Feodum sure will be nice, especially in games with lots of money but no buy.
Stone Mason looks really interesting.
Merchant Guild looks kinda weak. Its essentially a bridge that gives you the discount in a later turn instead of this one. But you want the discount the same turn you have the +buy. (I assume you can't get a token from the Merchant Guild and then immediately spend it)
Taxman looks better than a mine. Sure you lose the card that turn, but you get it right back and it has a cutpurse effect. Doesn't really hurt it that much and is $1 cheaper.
Shame there is no victory card.
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What do we think about Soothsayer? Looks a lot weaker to me than Witch and Mountebank.
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What do we think about Soothsayer? Looks a lot weaker to me than Witch and Mountebank.
Probably weaker but gaining gold is very nice and doubly so in cursing games.
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Plaza looks terrific. So much flexibility there, although it'll require some coppers (or masterpieces) lying around in your engine.
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Argh, now you did it. I'm hyped.
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Who was predicting we'd get horde variant, a cheaper develop, a cross between an envoy and a lab, a cross between a pillage and a mine, and a curse giver that gains gold. They all look sort of balanced, although some of them could be really good or really, really, bad ... depending upon the kingdom.
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Well Masterpiece + Feodum sure will be nice, especially in games with lots of money but no buy.
Stone Mason looks really interesting.
Merchant Guild looks kinda weak. Its essentially a bridge that gives you the discount in a later turn instead of this one. But you want the discount the same turn you have the +buy. (I assume you can't get a token from the Merchant Guild and then immediately spend it)
Taxman looks better than a mine. Sure you lose the card that turn, but you get it right back and it has a cutpurse effect. Doesn't really hurt it that much and is $1 cheaper.
Shame there is no victory card.
The advantage Merchant Guild has over Bridge must surely be that it helps you buy expensive cards as well as cheap ones. Picking up your first KC in a Bridge deck is such a hassle (although that's all to the good), but not for Merchant Guild.
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KC combos more directly with Bridge too. Targeting Merchant's Guild with it just doesn't do very much.
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Well Masterpiece + Feodum sure will be nice, especially in games with lots of money but no buy.
Stone Mason looks really interesting.
Merchant Guild looks kinda weak. Its essentially a bridge that gives you the discount in a later turn instead of this one. But you want the discount the same turn you have the +buy. (I assume you can't get a token from the Merchant Guild and then immediately spend it)
Taxman looks better than a mine. Sure you lose the card that turn, but you get it right back and it has a cutpurse effect. Doesn't really hurt it that much and is $1 cheaper.
Shame there is no victory card.
The advantage Merchant Guild has over Bridge must surely be that it helps you buy expensive cards as well as cheap ones. Picking up your first KC in a Bridge deck is such a hassle (although that's all to the good), but not for Merchant Guild.
How is it not a hassle? MG is a $5 terminal Copper on play. You'll need to save some coin tokens before you get KC Maybe it's easier, but it's still a hassle. But then once you have it, KC-MG is not nearly as good as KC-Bridge.
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What do we think about Soothsayer? Looks a lot weaker to me than Witch and Mountebank.
Probably weaker but gaining gold is very nice and doubly so in cursing games.
I think Soothsayer will be quite strong in slogs, where you really can't do too much trashing, and one extra card isn't so huge, but a Gold gainer is pretty great.
In games with strong trashing, not so great.
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You know, there is another thread...
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I really wish you could gain two cards of different costs with the stone mason on buy effect.
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Masterpiece is so cool!
Merchant Guild - I think this will be awesome in giant Goons engines :)
Candlesticker is boring.
Advisor is Worse-than-Lab, I don't think it is good as it is engine card and opponent can easily disrupt your engine when you use it.
Soothsayer - do you draw a card too?
Plaza should really be 3, but it is finish this way. I guess it works in village+draw engines as you can discard extra coppers to have more money for worse turns.
Taxmen - better than Mine, I guess. That doesn't say much.
Stonemason - you want cheap engine parts? He's your guy!
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Soothsayer - do you draw a card too?
No, you don't gain a curse.
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Masterpiece is so cool!
Merchant Guild - I think this will be awesome in giant Goons engines :)
Candlesticker is boring.
Advisor is Worse-than-Lab, I don't think it is good as it is engine card and opponent can easily disrupt your engine when you use it.
Soothsayer - do you draw a card too?
Plaza should really be 3, but it is finish this way. I guess it works in village+draw engines as you can discard extra coppers to have more money for worse turns.
Taxmen - better than Mine, I guess. That doesn't say much.
Stonemason - you want cheap engine parts? He's your guy!
Plaza at $3 would be strictly better than Village.
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Masterpiece is so cool!
Merchant Guild - I think this will be awesome in giant Goons engines :)
Candlesticker is boring.
Advisor is Worse-than-Lab, I don't think it is good as it is engine card and opponent can easily disrupt your engine when you use it.
Soothsayer - do you draw a card too?
Plaza should really be 3, but it is finish this way. I guess it works in village+draw engines as you can discard extra coppers to have more money for worse turns.
Taxmen - better than Mine, I guess. That doesn't say much.
Stonemason - you want cheap engine parts? He's your guy!
Plaza at $3 would be strictly better than Village.
Yes, I know. It is overpriced anyway, thats the problem with Village-with-a-bonus cards (not all of them).
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So when will you be willing to buy a Copper with Merchant Guild in play to get an extra coin token? My guess is just slightly more often than you would with Goons in play, which isn't very often. Interestingly, with Goons you're more willing to do it when the game is closer to over, whereas with Merchant Guild, it doesn't work as well... at least, doing it if you think it is your last turn is pointless (though doesn't hurt you either).
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Soothsayer - do you draw a card too?
No, you don't gain a curse.
But you did gain a Gold. It doesn't say "each player who gained a curse draws a card" but "each player who did" who did what?
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So when will you be willing to buy a Copper with Merchant Guild in play to get an extra coin token? My guess is just slightly more often than you would with Goons in play, which isn't very often. Interestingly, with Goons you're more willing to do it when the game is closer to over, whereas with Merchant Guild, it doesn't work as well... at least, doing it if you think it is your last turn is pointless (though doesn't hurt you either).
Watchtower in hand!
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Yeah KC+Merchant Guild is nothing special (although KC could fit nicely into a deck that's been rapidly stuffed with cheap Actions from MG). I just picked KC as an example of a high-cost card because everyone's familiar with waiting a long time to be able to buy one in a Bridge game.
Merchant Guild in hand doesn't help you hit $7, but you do also have non-Merchant Guild turns after all. It can give you two Coin tokens on T3, which is as good as a Mining Village on T4 or any subsequent turn of your choice. I'm not saying it's a fast way to catapult into the $6-7 range by any stretch but if we're purely comparing to Bridge, there's no contest.
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Soothsayer - do you draw a card too?
No, you don't gain a curse.
But you did gain a Gold. It doesn't say "each player who gained a curse draws a card" but "each player who did" who did what?
That really doesn't seem like a very likely interpretation. You're saying the implicit part is "gained a curse or a gold" or "something". But the previous sentence just says "each other player gains a curses." It's one specific action.
Like if I said "Go to the bank and deposit this check. Then go to the store and buy milk. While you're there be sure to use your discount card." You're not going to ask what I mean by "there". It's the grocery store. You're already done with the bank.
I'm not sure I would actually say it that way in real life, but Dominion has some restrictions on how things can be stated because they have to be formatted as a linear sequence of instructions that fits on half of a playing card.
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So when will you be willing to buy a Copper with Merchant Guild in play to get an extra coin token? My guess is just slightly more often than you would with Goons in play, which isn't very often. Interestingly, with Goons you're more willing to do it when the game is closer to over, whereas with Merchant Guild, it doesn't work as well... at least, doing it if you think it is your last turn is pointless (though doesn't hurt you either).
I've been thinking about this too. Buying 3 Coppers can guarantee you at least one Province instead of a Duchy, which is a better exchange rate than Goons's 1VP/Copper (although this comparison is more than a little dubious). It also accelerates the endgame, making the Coppers hurt less. I think it's going to be a common thing you do, although obviously it's not why you buy the Merchant Guild, if that needed to be said.
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So maybe these two threads should just be merged?
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What do we think about Soothsayer? Looks a lot weaker to me than Witch and Mountebank.
"Gain a Gold" is a really strong benefit; in a Cursing game the bonus card is ok but not as big a deal as a Council Room game. Also, there's a lot of space in between "pretty good" and Witch/Mountebank.
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What do we think about Soothsayer? Looks a lot weaker to me than Witch and Mountebank.
"Gain a Gold" is a really strong benefit; in a Cursing game the bonus card is ok but not as big a deal as a Council Room game. Also, there's a lot of space in between "pretty good" and Witch/Mountebank.
Exactly, not every junking card has to be the best card in Dominion.
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What do we think about Soothsayer? Looks a lot weaker to me than Witch and Mountebank.
"Gain a Gold" is a really strong benefit; in a Cursing game the bonus card is ok but not as big a deal as a Council Room game. Also, there's a lot of space in between "pretty good" and Witch/Mountebank.
Exactly, not every junking card has to be the best card in Dominion.
...because the best card in all of Dominion is Bureaucrat, which is not a junking card.
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So when will you be willing to buy a Copper with Merchant Guild in play to get an extra coin token? My guess is just slightly more often than you would with Goons in play, which isn't very often. Interestingly, with Goons you're more willing to do it when the game is closer to over, whereas with Merchant Guild, it doesn't work as well... at least, doing it if you think it is your last turn is pointless (though doesn't hurt you either).
I've been thinking about this too. Buying 3 Coppers can guarantee you at least one Province instead of a Duchy, which is a better exchange rate than Goons's 1VP/Copper (although this comparison is more than a little dubious). It also accelerates the endgame, making the Coppers hurt less. I think it's going to be a common thing you do, although obviously it's not why you buy the Merchant Guild, if that needed to be said.
How's that? Goons gives you 3VP for 3 copper right away. MG gives you 3 coin tokens. If you later are able to use those tokens to buy Province instead of Duchy with a $5 hand, you get 3vp more than you would have... But the Goons player could have used that hand to just buy the Duchy.
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So when will you be willing to buy a Copper with Merchant Guild in play to get an extra coin token? My guess is just slightly more often than you would with Goons in play, which isn't very often. Interestingly, with Goons you're more willing to do it when the game is closer to over, whereas with Merchant Guild, it doesn't work as well... at least, doing it if you think it is your last turn is pointless (though doesn't hurt you either).
I've been thinking about this too. Buying 3 Coppers can guarantee you at least one Province instead of a Duchy, which is a better exchange rate than Goons's 1VP/Copper (although this comparison is more than a little dubious). It also accelerates the endgame, making the Coppers hurt less. I think it's going to be a common thing you do, although obviously it's not why you buy the Merchant Guild, if that needed to be said.
How's that? Goons gives you 3VP for 3 copper right away. MG gives you 3 coin tokens. If you later are able to use those tokens to buy Province instead of Duchy with a $5 hand, you get 3vp more than you would have... But the Goons player could have used that hand to just buy the Duchy.
Right, so on a bad day they're equal, except the endgame acceleration aspect if that's a factor. On a good day, Province instead of Duchy is a 6 or 9 point swing rather than a 3 point swing (!). (Of course if your opponent is actually playing Goons, they probably don't care about being denied Provinces, but I'm not actually concerned with the Goons matchup.) On another good day, you might split your 3 coins up over two turns to get two additional Provinces instead of just one; the opportunity cost here is probably trickier to measure but I'm sure it's an improvement sometimes.
You could of course argue that the PPR might make Duchies preferable to Provinces which gets in the way of this plan. This could be an issue but I have to imagine the PPR is generally on your side here. The Copper doesn't hurt as much when you want to buy Duchies, and the flexibility of Coin tokens is perfect for tactical buys.
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Soothsayer - do you draw a card too?
No, you don't gain a curse.
But you did gain a Gold. It doesn't say "each player who gained a curse draws a card" but "each player who did" who did what?
That really doesn't seem like a very likely interpretation. You're saying the implicit part is "gained a curse or a gold" or "something". But the previous sentence just says "each other player gains a curses." It's one specific action.
Like if I said "Go to the bank and deposit this check. Then go to the store and buy milk. While you're there be sure to use your discount card." You're not going to ask what I mean by "there". It's the grocery store. You're already done with the bank.
I'm not sure I would actually say it that way in real life, but Dominion has some restrictions on how things can be stated because they have to be formatted as a linear sequence of instructions that fits on half of a playing card.
I kind of wish Soothsayer had been typeset differently, since there's room to separate the effects. Something like
Gain a Gold.
Each other player gains a Curse.
Each player who did draws a card.
...might be harder for people to misinterpret.
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So maybe these two threads should just be merged?
Or one locked? (probably this one as it isn't as big)
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DUDES.
So wonky.
Donald used the -name- of the winning curser from the mini-set design contest. But then the mechanics were very similar to the effects of Sorry Witch, a very close runner up (that really should have won instead truth be told. I like it better than most of Donald's cursers)
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I'm thinking Taxman mirror games will lead to some interesting tactics. Should I Tax Copper and be more likely to hit you, or Silver and do more harm? If I topdeck a Silver, you'll know I have that in my hand, which could be bad if you have one to Tax. Then again, if I turn Silver into Gold at every opportunity, I'll have less flexibility to Tax Silver myself when similar opportunities arise.
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What do we think about Soothsayer? Looks a lot weaker to me than Witch and Mountebank.
"Gain a Gold" is a really strong benefit; in a Cursing game the bonus card is ok but not as big a deal as a Council Room game. Also, there's a lot of space in between "pretty good" and Witch/Mountebank.
Exactly, not every junking card has to be the best card in Dominion.
...because the best card in all of Dominion is Bureaucrat, which is not a junking card.
And Bureaucrat + Tax Collector? Totally going to be a thing. (Wait, isn't this the ridiculously bold predictions thread?)
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I'm thinking Taxman mirror games will lead to some interesting tactics. Should I Tax Copper and be more likely to hit you, or Silver and do more harm? If I topdeck a Silver, you'll know I have that in my hand, which could be bad if you have one to Tax. Then again, if I turn Silver into Gold at every opportunity, I'll have less flexibility to Tax Silver myself when similar opportunities arise.
Oh wow, I hadn't noticed that mirror synergy before. Your opponent will know a treasure in your hand the turn after you use Taxman. That will really change up how it plays. Previously, I figured I'd nearly always go with Copper.
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I'm thinking Taxman mirror games will lead to some interesting tactics. Should I Tax Copper and be more likely to hit you, or Silver and do more harm? If I topdeck a Silver, you'll know I have that in my hand, which could be bad if you have one to Tax. Then again, if I turn Silver into Gold at every opportunity, I'll have less flexibility to Tax Silver myself when similar opportunities arise.
Oh wow, I hadn't noticed that mirror synergy before. Your opponent will know a treasure in your hand the turn after you use Taxman. That will really change up how it plays. Previously, I figured I'd nearly always go with Copper.
This is a new solution to the puzzle: "Reasons to reveal Trader when gaining Silver".
If it isn't obvious: when gaining with Taxman, to prevent topdecking and deny knowledge to your opponent.
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I'm thinking Taxman mirror games will lead to some interesting tactics. Should I Tax Copper and be more likely to hit you, or Silver and do more harm? If I topdeck a Silver, you'll know I have that in my hand, which could be bad if you have one to Tax. Then again, if I turn Silver into Gold at every opportunity, I'll have less flexibility to Tax Silver myself when similar opportunities arise.
Oh wow, I hadn't noticed that mirror synergy before. Your opponent will know a treasure in your hand the turn after you use Taxman. That will really change up how it plays. Previously, I figured I'd nearly always go with Copper.
I think are a couple other factors in favor of going Silver->Gold:
Your opponent is rarely going to want to Tax Gold into Gold (although occasionally it might be good to shuffle a Gold over to the next hand). Accordingly, your Gold is relatively safe from getting attacked, except of course in Platinum games. But if you give yourself a deck full of Silver, they'll surely stop attacking your Coppers and start Taxing Silver->Gold, and then you might be in for a rough time.
Also, Taxman might actually go well with other mild trashers, like say Lookout. This might seem counterintuitive but Taxman is an even slower card than Mine: it's not as though you're going to upgrade all of your starting Coppers into Golds with one Taxman, are you? Why not drop a few? It'll help you avoid your opponent's Taxmen, and if you really need, you can always pick up a couple Silvers when you start running out of Taxman targets.
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If you play Taxman and always choose Silver and it hits half as much as when you'd choose Copper, you've caused the same amount of total $ loss as when you'd pick a Copper which always hits.
In the beginning, picking Copper is pretty critical as it can deny someone from getting a much needed $5. In the mid-game however, there's often some overshoot. Players will have "at least 5" more often so it can be better to gamble a bit and choose Silver or Gold, hoping to cut someone down from $6+ to below $5.
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I guess it mostly depends on how much buying power you want this turn.
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You cost yourself as much buying power as you cost your opponent.
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If you play Taxman and always choose Silver and it hits half as much as when you'd choose Copper, you've caused the same amount of total $ loss as when you'd pick a Copper which always hits.
In the beginning, picking Copper is pretty critical as it can deny someone from getting a much needed $5. In the mid-game however, there's often some overshoot. Players will have "at least 5" more often so it can be better to gamble a bit and choose Silver or Gold, hoping to cut someone down from $6+ to below $5.
I don't think you should ever choose Gold unless it's a Colony game, because that way you're not improving your own cards.
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There's an edge case for it.
One is to "Haven" a Gold over, another is that you know there's a Gold in your opp's hand and the loss to him is bigger than it is for you to postpone your Gold one turn.
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You don't haven it over, you courtyard it over, which is quite a bit weaker.
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There's an edge case for it.
One is to "Haven" a Gold over, another is that you know there's a Gold in your opp's hand and the loss to him is bigger than it is for you to postpone your Gold one turn.
But trashing a Silver is equally good for the "Havening" except it improves your deck.
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In the beginning, picking Copper is pretty critical as it can deny someone from getting a much needed $5. In the mid-game however, there's often some overshoot. Players will have "at least 5" more often so it can be better to gamble a bit and choose Silver or Gold, hoping to cut someone down from $6+ to below $5.
However, Guilds has stirred things up more than that because we also have coin tokens now. If you tax someone's copper, that could turn into "on your next turn, discard a coin token". Upsetting for them, but it makes it hard to prevent them buying the card they want.
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You could Taxman the Gold into a Bank.
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If you play Taxman and always choose Silver and it hits half as much as when you'd choose Copper, you've caused the same amount of total $ loss as when you'd pick a Copper which always hits.
In the beginning, picking Copper is pretty critical as it can deny someone from getting a much needed $5. In the mid-game however, there's often some overshoot. Players will have "at least 5" more often so it can be better to gamble a bit and choose Silver or Gold, hoping to cut someone down from $6+ to below $5.
Okay, so if we open Taxman/Silver then on T3 I have a 5/12 chance of successfully hitting your Silver and a 12/12 chance of hitting Copper. Already we are almost at the 50% cutoff point described in your first paragraph. On T4 I've been counting cards and my chances are 5/7,although maybe I'm swayed by your second paragraph and still choose Copper.
There's an edge case for it.
One is to "Haven" a Gold over, another is that you know there's a Gold in your opp's hand and the loss to him is bigger than it is for you to postpone your Gold one turn.
But trashing a Silver is equally good for the "Havening" except it improves your deck.
Yeah but you need Silver in hand to do that. Sometimes you won't have it, although this might be a case for why you shouldn't upgrade it prematurely.
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PDF rules now online at RGG.
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I like that the rules use feminine pronouns to refer to a generic player! :D
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Agreed!
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PDF rules now online at RGG.
Only recommended sets of 10 for the Base Set and Intrigue. That's disappointing.
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Feminine pronouns, pink rules - coincidence?
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I guess it mostly depends on how much buying power you want this turn.
And how much you want next turn as well. Of course, that's somewhat of a risk, but whatever you lose this turn, you get back next turn, so...
I like that the rules use feminine pronouns to refer to a generic player! :D
Call me a contrarain, but I don't. It's inconsistent with... all of the previous rulebooks, I think? And all of the Dominion cards, which use masculine when there's an unknown. And I think that's the standard in English as well, if you don't have a gender neutral term to refer to people of unknown gender, go masculine instead of feminine. But this might not be a rule, just what I've always seen done. Perhaps because most of my hobbies and skills are 80%+ male, though (I'm a mathematician, and I play lots of games and the like).
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I like that the rules use feminine pronouns to refer to a generic player! :D
Call me a contrarain, but I don't. It's inconsistent with... all of the previous rulebooks, I think? And all of the Dominion cards, which use masculine when there's an unknown. And I think that's the standard in English as well, if you don't have a gender neutral term to refer to people of unknown gender, go masculine instead of feminine. But this might not be a rule, just what I've always seen done. Perhaps because most of my hobbies and skills are 80%+ male, though (I'm a mathematician, and I play lots of games and the like).
I don't really see what's lost by the inconsistency here. If all of the rulebooks and cards used the feminine, it still wouldn't feel any more natural to you, or to me for that matter.
It's the standard in English, but that's because everything was "80% male" until recently. Pretty much anything worth writing a book about except cooking, childrearing etc. would have assumed the actors were male. So there are fairly good reasons for thinking this custom should change. I'm personally a big believer in the singular "they" but people who go farther will get no argument from me.
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I like that the rules use feminine pronouns to refer to a generic player! :D
Perhaps because most of my hobbies and skills are 80%+ male, though (I'm a mathematician, and I play lots of games and the like).
Then you'll be happy to know that your Dominion rule books are 80%+ male. ;)
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To me, it feels like they've got complaints because all the previous rulebooks and all the cards use the masculine pronoun and now they're trying to cover up. And it's not working very well in my opinion, since this mostly just highlights the masculinity of the masculine pronouns everywhere - "he" is often used as a gender neutral pronoun and it could have been the case here, too, if they hadn't suddenly used "she" in Guilds.
But it isn't a big deal, I'm okay with being referred to as "she" and the odds are I'm not going to read the rulebook in English anyway.