Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Cuzz on April 18, 2013, 08:16:22 pm
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I know we've had the best target for King's Court (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5553.0) discussion before, and I'd assume that there wouldn't be much deviation there from best targets for Throne Room (side question: can anyone edge-case that?)
But you usually don't want to play your Mountebank twice, lose it, and gain an Adventurer for your troubles. So what cards are best for Processioning? We'll assume of course there are cards you want on the board at $1 more.
Two that come to mind immediately are Feast and Island. Procession a Feast to gain 3 $5's immediately. Or Procession an Island, set aside 2 cards, gain a $5 AND keep the 2VP due to lose track rule.
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fortress, of course. also other on-trash abilites. (cultist, catacombs, squire, sir vander)
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Oh right, obviously Fortress.
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Fortress
EDIT: Double Ninja >:(
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This depends on the board because it depends on the card you gain. Processing a $5-cost card when Border Village is on the table is pretty great! Especially if that 5-cost card is a Trash for Benefit card which you can target your free Border Villages with.
Also, Procession on Band of Misfits, as Fortress.
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Procession on Scout greatly improves your deck, too.
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Procession on Scout greatly improves your deck, too.
Yeah, it's nothing better than drawing all your 8 Nobles and getting a $5 card, but having to trash that Scout is really a downside.
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Do you get on-trash abilities for BoM?
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No, if Band of Misfits is trashed, it has left play, so it isn't a Fortress anymore and it stays trashed.
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Official FAQ, available at http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Band_of_Misfits
For example, if you use Procession to play Band of Misfits twice and choose Fortress the first time, you will automatically replay it as Fortress, then trash the Band of Misfits, return it to your hand (it is a Fortress when it's trashed, and Fortress has a when-trashed ability that returns it to your hand), and gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress).
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Oh, Procession on Island is awesomely good. Nice call!
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Cool thread idea btw.
Let's think of other good targets. Procession on Death Cart is pretty good too, especially with extra buys.
How about Governor for cards and then Procession+Pillage. That would be really mean even with no $6 card on the board. :P
But even without Governor if you have a Pillage in hand and want to play it anyway playing Procession on it, might be actually good as you get 2 extra Spoils.
Out of the trash effect cards Fortress and Cultist are probably the strongest while Sir Vander and Catacombs could both pretty strong too, especially with strong $6 targets like Border Village.
Procession+Sea Hag is especially good with when you deal out the last 2 Curses.
Other good targets might be good targets that lose their usefulness after a while, maybe Ambassador or Moneylender.
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Any $5 when Border Village is available. It's just so, so wrong.
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Armory is actually pretty decent too. You can gain two cheap engine components on top of your deck, and a key $5 in your discard. And if you're sad about losing the Armory, you can get one right back. Actually you can even just topdeck Procession/Armory and repeat the combo all you want.
This may even be one of the reasons why you must upgrade into another Action, since this would be a pretty fast way to 3-pile if you could take Duchies.
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Armory is actually pretty decent too. You can gain two cheap engine components on top of your deck, and a key $5 in your discard. And if you're sad about losing the Armory, you can get one right back. Actually you can even just topdeck Procession/Armory and repeat the combo all you want.
This may even be one of the reasons why you must upgrade into another Action, since this would be a pretty fast way to 3-pile if you could take Duchies.
Also so you can't turn $5 cost actions into golds.
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Embargo deserves some mention too, considering it's a 2$ cost. Also, Altar could be a great target if there's a 7$ action.
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Hunting grounds is good late in the game. +8cards is a real good shot at a province, and you get a duchy/3estates with it. if expand is in the kingdom it's even better. (expand because it's late game and expand turns 5s into provinces.)
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If there's already a Graverobber in the trash, then playing a Procession on a Graverobber can replace itself, and get a second play of Graverobber. If there's a $6 action, the second play of Graverobber can trash that for a Province, and the Procession can replace said action. So your net deck is up by exactly one Province. I don't know if this qualifies as a good use, or a Stupid Pet Trick, since it's kinda Rube-Goldberg and the pipeline is several turns long.
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Any $5 when Border Village is available. It's just so, so wrong.
I think that this raises the point that, aside from obvious answers like Fortress and "cards that trash themselves anyways", the power of procession depends on what cards are available to gain as much as the cards you can play it on. A good $6 action (especially BV) makes playing procession on a $5 much more appealing, and even procession/fortress isn't so hot when the only $5 action is counting house. So maybe the real question is what pairs or chains of actions work well with procession?
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Rats!
More seriously, cards that you want early but don't need late are great targets, especially in the mid-game. Things like Processing Sea Hag to give out the last 2 Curses, or Moneylender to get rid of 2 of your last Coppers, is just outstanding.
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Rats!
More seriously, cards that you want early but don't need late are great targets, especially in the mid-game. Things like Processing Sea Hag to give out the last 2 Curses, or Moneylender to get rid of 2 of your last Coppers, is just outstanding.
Procession-Rats with Watchtower in hand. Just make sure you have two useless cards to trash...
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I'd assume that there wouldn't be much deviation there from best targets for Throne Room (side question: can anyone edge-case that?)
I think scheme fits the bill. KC'ing it nets you one card, two actions and you can topdeck KC-Scheme-SomeActionCard, which is pretty good. TR-Scheme, however, nets you only one action, which combined with the option to topdeck the combo makes it virtually equivalent to a Walled Village (though with, say, TR, Scheme, Ghost Ship, you can TR the Scheme and topdeck the Scheme and GS, but this lacks the persistence of KC-Scheme-GS).
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Better than a walled village, though. Walled Village stops going on top of your deck as soon as you actually get an action chain going, whereas TR-scheme stays on top. Still not that great, unless you really have to build an engine and there's no other village. But it does work as a very reliable village! (But once the deck gets going a little more, you'll probably want to use scheme to topdeck TR-TR->[smithy equivalent] and play throned schemes later.)
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Yes, it's better than Walled Village, but it's by no means one of the best targets for Throne Room. The ability to topdeck one other action is what makes KC-Scheme so good.
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Official FAQ, available at http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Band_of_Misfits
For example, if you use Procession to play Band of Misfits twice and choose Fortress the first time, you will automatically replay it as Fortress, then trash the Band of Misfits, return it to your hand (it is a Fortress when it's trashed, and Fortress has a when-trashed ability that returns it to your hand), and gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress).
I'm having some problems understanding this.
The moment you trash BoM as Fortress, there seems to be a conflicting timing issue.
Fortress' "when-trashed" ability wants to trigger, BoM has left play and is no longer a Fortress, which takes precedence?
If it's the former Fortress simply returns to your hand. If it's the latter, BoM is no longer a Fortress and the "when-trashed" fizzles.
For me "when-trashed" can only react after a card has physically hit the trash, but at this point BoM should realize it's no longer the card it was.
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Sea Hag with only 2 curses left in the supply.
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Official FAQ, available at http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Band_of_Misfits
For example, if you use Procession to play Band of Misfits twice and choose Fortress the first time, you will automatically replay it as Fortress, then trash the Band of Misfits, return it to your hand (it is a Fortress when it's trashed, and Fortress has a when-trashed ability that returns it to your hand), and gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress).
I'm having some problems understanding this.
The moment you trash BoM as Fortress, there seems to be a conflicting timing issue.
Fortress' "when-trashed" ability wants to trigger, BoM has left play and is no longer a Fortress, which takes precedence?
If it's the former Fortress simply returns to your hand. If it's the latter, BoM is no longer a Fortress and the "when-trashed" fizzles.
For me "when-trashed" can only react after a card has physically hit the trash, but at this point BoM should realize it's no longer the card it was.
This is the same issue I had. With on-gain effects, the effect happens after the card has already been put in your discard pile. Wouldn't this mean that with on-trash effects, the effect happens after the card has been put in the trash pile? At that point, the Band of Misfits has left play, so it is no longer a Fortress and has no on-trash effect.
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I'm confused. Someone needs to walk us through exactly what happens when you play Procession on Band Of Misfits and you make BOM emulate Fortress. Step by step, if anyone could, please. :)
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I can only show it up to the point of confusion.
1. Play Procession on BoM, choosing Fortress
2. Play "Fortress" once, get +1 Card, +2 Actions
3. Play "Fortress" again, get +1 Card, +2 Actions
4. Trash "Fortress" -> confusion ???
The thing is, for me "leave play" happens before Trashing.
Leaving play happens as soon as a card is moved from the play area (I think). At this point the destination may be unknown and the destination may even change. Suppose a card has the reaction "when you would trash a card, put it in your hand" then the card would leave play first, but never actually hit the trash, like Trader's reaction causes the originally gained card to never be in your discard pile.
"When trashed" happens after a card has been put in the trash, which is after leaving play.
Continuing with my assumptions:
5. BoM has left play (but has not yet been trashed) and is now BoM again
6. BoM hits the trash exactly as BoM
7. Gain a cord costing exactly one more than BoM (usually a $6)
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The best way I can think of it is On-Trash is when the card is to be removed from your deck but before you put it in the trash.
It goes as outlined by Davio, except at 4. Trash Fortress. On Trash Effect: Return fortress to your hand.
Continue with Procession instructions.
BoM is no longer in play, it's in your hand. BoM costs 5. Procession looks a BoM's cost and gives you an action card costing 6.
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Here are the two major possibilities, as I see it:
(A)
4. Trash "Fortress".
5. Move "Fortress" to trash pile; it becomes a Band of Misfits.
6. Check for on-trash effects; there are none because it is a Band of Misfits now.
7. Gain an Action card costing $6.
END
(B)
4. Trash "Fortress".
5. Check for on-trash effects; "Fortress" has one.
6. Put "Fortress" into your hand; it becomes a Band of Misfits.
7. Procession tries to put the card from play into the trash pile, but has lost track of it because it is in your hand.
8. Gain an Action card costing $6.
END
Personally, I think (A) should be correct (you trash before resolving on-trash effects), but this contradicts the FAQ.
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The thing is, for me "leave play" happens before Trashing.
Leaving play happens as soon as a card is moved from the play area (I think). At this point the destination may be unknown and the destination may even change. Suppose a card has the reaction "when you would trash a card, put it in your hand" then the card would leave play first, but never actually hit the trash, like Trader's reaction causes the originally gained card to never be in your discard pile.
"When trashed" happens after a card has been put in the trash, which is after leaving play.
Continuing with my assumptions:
5. BoM has left play (but has not yet been trashed) and is now BoM again
6. BoM hits the trash exactly as BoM
7. Gain a cord costing exactly one more than BoM (usually a $6)
I agree that those are logical, but it contradicts the rules of BoM as explicitly set out in the Dark Ages manual.
If you reverse the order, and have leaving play follow trashing (aka Trash is the command to send a card out of your deck into the trash pile, and it leaves play when it reaches the trash pile) then all cards still work as expected. I'm trying to think of an edge case but haven't found any...
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I'm confused. Someone needs to walk us through exactly what happens when you play Procession on Band Of Misfits and you make BOM emulate Fortress. Step by step, if anyone could, please.
What happens is
1. Play Procession on BoM, choosing Fortress
2. Play "Fortress" once, get +1 Card, +2 Actions
3. Play "Fortress" again, get +1 Card, +2 Actions
4. Trash "Fortress"
5. Check for on-trash effects; "Fortress" has one.
6. Put "Fortress" into your hand; it becomes a Band of Misfits.
7. Gain an Action card costing $1 more than it. It is now a Band of Misfits costing $5, so you gain a card costing $6END
It's confusing, but it's also exactly an interaction written out in the FAQ, so we know how it works.
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I'm confused. Someone needs to walk us through exactly what happens when you play Procession on Band Of Misfits and you make BOM emulate Fortress. Step by step, if anyone could, please.
What happens is
1. Play Procession on BoM, choosing Fortress
2. Play "Fortress" once, get +1 Card, +2 Actions
3. Play "Fortress" again, get +1 Card, +2 Actions
4. Trash "Fortress"
5. Check for on-trash effects; "Fortress" has one.
6. Put "Fortress" into your hand; it becomes a Band of Misfits.
7. Gain an Action card costing $1 more than it. It is now a Band of Misfits costing $5, so you gain a card costing $6END
It's confusing, but it's also exactly an interaction written out in the FAQ, so we know how it works.
Works for me. Thanks!
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I strongly disagree with the rules here, the rules are contradicting themselves.
Read the following:
Many cards in Dark Ages do something "when you trash" that card. These abilities function no
matter whose turn the card is trashed on. The player that a "when you trash this" ability functions
for is the player that had that card, regardless of whose card trashed the card. These abilities happen
directly after the card is put into the trash, and can function in the middle of resolving effects for
an Action card
Okay, so the "when-trashed" effect happens after a card has been put into the trash.
BoM is BoM until it leaves play which would logically be before it's trashed.
I mean, a card is bought before it's gained. Why doesn't a card leave play before it's trashed, this is pretty counter intuitive to me. A card can't leave play after it's trashed, right? At the moment it's trashed, it's already out of play.
Also, the rules say this:
If you use Band of Misfits as a
Throne Room (from Dominion), King's Court (from Prosperity),
or Procession
How would you be able to use BoM as KC? Am I missing an edge case or would this have something to do with Guilds?
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How would you be able to use BoM as KC? Am I missing an edge case or would this have something to do with Guilds?
Currently it can't, I guess that just leaves the option to have "name a card, that card is now 2 cheaper" type effects
I strongly disagree with the rules here, the rules are contradicting themselves.
I love Dominion :)
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How would you be able to use BoM as KC? Am I missing an edge case or would this have something to do with Guilds?
Currently it can't, I guess that just leaves the option to have "name a card, that card is now 2 cheaper" type effects
I strongly disagree with the rules here, the rules are contradicting themselves.
I love Dominion :)
Spoilers! ;D
But it should be $3 cheaper. ;)
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But it should be $3 cheaper. ;)
After I wrote that I knew I should have written $x cheaper
Either way, almost anything is possible with the right engine :P
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On the other hand, my mission to turn every new topic into an endless rules debate is going along splendidly. ;D
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Also Mining village.
Any $4 late in the game (to turn it into duchy)
Forge + a hand of 4 rats (3 free provinces ! ;D ok very unlikely)
I have another rule question though : if you have a hand of 3 treasure maps, can you play a treasure map twice to topdeck 2x4 golds ?
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Cultist if Ruins are close to running out and Border Village is in the supply.
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Also Mining village.
Any $4 late in the game (to turn it into duchy)
Forge + a hand of 4 rats (3 free provinces ! ;D ok very unlikely)
I have another rule question though : if you have a hand of 3 treasure maps, can you play a treasure map twice to topdeck 2x4 golds ?
No, this was talked about in another topic.
Basically, the conditional hangs on trashing two Treasure Maps, not just one extra.
And the actual trashing of a single copy can only be done once.
It would go like this:
1. Play Procession - TM1
2. Trash TM1 + TM2, get 4 Golds
3. Play TM1 again, trash TM3, no Golds because TM1 has already been trashed
4. "Trash TM1", fizzles, TM1 has already been trashed
5. Gain a card costing $1 more than TM1 (usually a $5)
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Any $4 late in the game (to turn it into duchy)
Procession can only gain you action cards; no Victory cards. Probably because of exactly this problem.
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Any $4 late in the game (to turn it into duchy)
Procession can only gain you action cards; no Victory cards. Probably because of exactly this problem.
Whoops... ::)
So any $5 late in a Border village game ^^
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Any $4 late in the game (to turn it into duchy)
Procession can only gain you action cards; no Victory cards. Probably because of exactly this problem.
Whoops... ::)
So any $5 late in a Border village game ^^
Even early.
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Processing a Ruined Village will give you +2 actions, and it won't be around in your deck any more. I'd say that makes it quite a good target, even in the majority of cases when you don't get to gain anything.
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Poor House feels great!
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Sea Hag with only 2 curses left in the supply.
I reveal Moat.