Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: Hibernator on March 29, 2013, 08:13:41 am
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Hello, I have a question. When you play a native village can you look which one is the top card of your deck before deciding which of the two possible actions you want to do? It is not clearly stated neither in the card nor in the rules leaflet, both read that you have to set it aside face down, but neither explicitly specifies that you can not look at it before setting it aside face down.
Thank you
H.
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Hello, I have a question. When you play a native village can you look which one is the top card of your deck before deciding which of the two possible actions you want to do? It is not clearly stated neither in the card nor in the rules leaflet, both read that you have to set it aside face down, but neither explicitly specifies that you can not look at it before setting it aside face down.
Thank you
Salvador
No, that's not allowed.
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The position of "or" on the card is important here.
Choose one: Set aside the top card of your deck face down on your Native Village mat; or put all the cards from your mat into your hand.
So either you set aside the top card or pick up all cards. It's not "look first and then decide".
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I think the most important thing is the position of "Choose one"; it's the very first thing you do.
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And, also, there is no instruction on the card or elsewhere to look at the top card of your deck, so what would give you the authority to do that? You can look at the contents of the NV mat whenever you like, but by the time the card is there to look at, you have already made your choice.
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Guys, its not clear, can I look at the top card or not?
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Guys, its not clear, can I look at the top card or not?
You can. The rest of us may not. But, if you do look, you must post an image of it and give us cryptic instructions on how to find it ourselves.
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Don't confuse him.
Of course you can look!
but then you have to put the card on your mat
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Don't confuse him.
Of course you can look!
but then you have to put the card on your mat
No, this is not allowed either!! You cannot look at the card until after you physically put it on your mat. The second it touches your mat, you are allowed to pick it back up and look at it. But you may not look at it on the way to the mat.[/Rules lawyer]
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What if you pick up the top card with your Native Village mat? :)
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What if Band of Misfits and Possession are in the Kingdom?
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What if the top card is Stash?
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What if the top card is Stash?
Dude, you can't know the top card is Stash. What if somehow a brand new promo card with the same back got into your deck? There's no tracking mechanism for that.
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What if the top card is Stash?
Dude, you can't know the top card is Stash. What if somehow a brand new promo card with the same back got into your deck? There's no tracking mechanism for that.
Spend $1 more when you buy it and it will have a special back. There's a promo Donald could do for Goko but not IRL.
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nonono guys you're all wrong.
You *are* allowed to look at the top card of the deck.
you just are only allowed to look at its back. Its a shy little card and doesn't want you seeing its bare frontside until you're willing to make a commitment.
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Well, I don't fully understand whether there is a disagreement among you people, or whether you are joking (I'm not an English speaker).
The fact that it says "Choose one" does not exclude looking at the top card, it has nothing to do. Neither has nothing to do the word "or".
To me it seems really very odd that the rules-book does not explicitly says whether you can or you can not look at the top card. So could it really be considered an irregularity a group of people playing by looking at the top card? Is the rule left open on purpose for home rules to be agreed among the players? Has the author of Dominion ever settled the rule in this forum or elsewhere?
thanks
H.
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They are joking around.
You are not allowed to look at the top card of your deck when playing native village simply because you are never allowed to look at the top card of your deck. (unless a card explicitly says so)
However, you are allowed to look at the cards on your native village mat at any time.
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Guys, it would probably be nice if you kept rules questions threads a little cleaner? Shame on the people who said "you can look at the top card" (or something very much like it) as a joke. It's only obvious as a joke if you know the right answer, and it's quite confusing if you don't.
You cannot look at the top card of your deck before deciding what to do.
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http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1204.msg217921
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Well, I don't fully understand whether there is a disagreement among you people, or whether you are joking (I'm not an English speaker).
The fact that it says "Choose one" does not exclude looking at the top card, it has nothing to do. Neither has nothing to do the word "or".
Yes, it does.
The structure of the card text is as follows:
Choose one: x, or y.
Thus, you have two options. You can do all of x, beginning to end; or you can do all of y, beginning to end.
'x' is:
Set aside the top card of your deck face down on your Native Village mat
That does not say you can look at the card before setting it aside, therefore choosing this option does not give you the right to look at the card at the start. In much the same way that you cannot gain a Province before setting the card aside.
'y' is:
put all the cards from the mat into your hand.
That also does not say you can look at the card, therefore you can't.
In neither case are you given the right, therefore you don't have the right.
Now, there is a part that says you can look at cards that are already on the mat. But that means, in order to look at the card, you must first have already placed it on the mat. That means you have already done x. It is now too late to change your mind and do y, because you have finished playing the card.
There is absolutely nothing about Dominion rules that is "deliberately left open to interpretation". Dominion is a game that expects you to be able to follow card instructions to the letter, very precisely. If it's not mentioned in the rules FAQ, it's because DXV never imagined that somebody could really imagine things to work the way you think they do.
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Seriously guys? It was such a simple question.
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Seriously guys? It was such a simple question.
It was. Then, it became much more complicated.
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Seriously guys? It was such a simple question.
It was. Then, it became much more complicated.
No, it still is a simple question. You guys are just over-analytical and couldnt bear to see a simple rules question go without a six-page argument.
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I came here for an argument.
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I came here for an argument.
5 Minutes or the whole half hour?
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Seriously guys? It was such a simple question.
Yeah, my subtle way of suggesting this was a bit too subtle it seems! Haha
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I came here for an argument.
No you didn't.
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Seriously guys? It was such a simple question.
There are no simple questions, only edge cases.
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Yes, it was a very simple question. The answer is no. But here is a much more useful answer, to which all the other answers were alluding:
During a turn of Dominion, you are not allowed to do anything other than play Action cards during your Action Phase (spending an Action to do each, one at a time, precisely and completely following each card's instructions in order before doing anything else), play Treasures during your Buy phase (one at a time, precisely and completely following each card's instructions in order before doing anything else, and only before Buying cards), Buy cards during your Buy phase (spending a Buy and the appropriate number of Coins on each, one at a time, precisely and completely following any on-Buy instructions, and then precisely and completely following any on-Gain instructions), clean up during your Clean-Up Phase and then end your turn, advance to the next phase, or count your deck (only looking at the backs of the cards), unless a card specifically says you can do it. (Obvious non-gamestate-related things like talking and sipping on a beverage of your choice (being careful not to spill any and risk damaging the cards) are allowed, and non-obvious things like keeping track of the score with pen and paper are beyond the scope of this answer but should probably only be done with the permission of all other players.)
This answers the majority of rules questions. Teach a man to fish and all that.
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This answers the majority of rules questions. Teach a man to fish and all that.
You forgot reactions.
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This answers the majority of rules questions. Teach a man to fish and all that.
You forgot reactions.
I think that's covered by "unless a card specifically says you can do it."
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Yes, I actually had a part about Reactions, but I deleted it when I realised that it was covered.
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How is there a next phase after cleanup and ending your turn? Is this the scary possession phase?
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It's a list of all the things you can do. Some of them can only be done during certain phases. Others can be done whenever. "Advance to the next phase" is the action that moves you between phases Action, Buy, and Cleanup. A more explicit wording would be "advance to the buy phase during the action phase, advance to the clean-up phase during the buy phase, or count..."
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If you count your deck you can't advance to the next phase? I mean, this topic already demonstrated the meaning of 'or'.
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If you count your deck you can't advance to the next phase? I mean, this topic already demonstrated the meaning of 'or'.
No, it's just forbidden to do this at the same time...
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If you count your deck you can't advance to the next phase? I mean, this topic already demonstrated the meaning of 'or'.
Read the whole sentence. You are not allowed to do anything other than A, B, C or D.
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Yes, it was a very simple question. The answer is no. But here is a much more useful answer, to which all the other answers were alluding:
During a turn of Dominion, you are not allowed to do anything other than play Action cards during your Action Phase (spending an Action to do each, one at a time, precisely and completely following each card's instructions in order before doing anything else), play Treasures during your Buy phase (one at a time, precisely and completely following each card's instructions in order before doing anything else, and only before Buying cards), Buy cards during your Buy phase (spending a Buy and the appropriate number of Coins on each, one at a time, precisely and completely following any on-Buy instructions, and then precisely and completely following any on-Gain instructions), clean up during your Clean-Up Phase and then end your turn, advance to the next phase, or count your deck (only looking at the backs of the cards), unless a card specifically says you can do it. (Obvious non-gamestate-related things like talking and sipping on a beverage of your choice (being careful not to spill any and risk damaging the cards) are allowed, and non-obvious things like keeping track of the score with pen and paper are beyond the scope of this answer but should probably only be done with the permission of all other players.)
This answers the majority of rules questions. Teach a man to fish and all that.
I like this for its elegance. I will say however, that no matter how many times more experienced players say this...some relatively new person or somebody who just doesn't think this systematically about things will stumble in and ask a question that is more or less covered by a literal reading of the rules.
And that's when we punk 'em. And we just have to accept that and answer as best we can.
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Yes, it was a very simple question. The answer is no. But here is a much more useful answer, to which all the other answers were alluding:
During a turn of Dominion, you are not allowed to do anything other than [...] or count your deck (only looking at the backs of the cards), unless a card specifically says you can do it.
I never knew you were allowed to count your deck without a card telling you to do that. Can anyone give out a link to the rules where it says so? Maybe it was just missed out in the german version, but i really would like to know.
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Yes, it was a very simple question. The answer is no. But here is a much more useful answer, to which all the other answers were alluding:
During a turn of Dominion, you are not allowed to do anything other than [...] or count your deck (only looking at the backs of the cards), unless a card specifically says you can do it.
I never knew you were allowed to count your deck without a card telling you to do that. Can anyone give out a link to the rules where it says so? Maybe it was just missed out in the german version, but i really would like to know.
"A player is allowed to count how many cards are left in his Deck, but not in his Discard pile. A player may not look through his Deck or his Discard pile. A player may look through the Trash pile, and players may count the number of cards left in any pile in the Supply."
Edit: Hmm. Are you allowed to count how many, say, Spoils are left? Or how many cards are left in the Black Market deck?
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Yes, it was a very simple question. The answer is no. But here is a much more useful answer, to which all the other answers were alluding:
During a turn of Dominion, you are not allowed to do anything other than [...] or count your deck (only looking at the backs of the cards), unless a card specifically says you can do it.
I never knew you were allowed to count your deck without a card telling you to do that. Can anyone give out a link to the rules where it says so? Maybe it was just missed out in the german version, but i really would like to know.
Under additional rules:
A player is allowed to count how many cards are left in his Deck,
but not in his Discard pile. A player may not look through his Deck
or his Discard pile. A player may look through the Trash pile, and
players may count the number of cards left in any pile in the
Supply.
http://www.riograndegames.com/uploads/Game/Game_278_gameRules.pdf
Page 4
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Edit: Hmm. Are you allowed to count how many, say, Spoils are left? Or how many cards are left in the Black Market deck?
Ooh, a thing not covered by the rules, counting non-supply piles. It's missing from the rules FAQ too (in my sig). The answer is of course obvious, but still... Well, I can't be bothered to add it, I think. Even a FAQ like that can get too pedantic... right?
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Has the author of Dominion ever settled the rule in this forum or elsewhere?
Although I doubt Donald X has ruled on this specific issue, one thing he has said repeatedly is that he considers Dominion to have a general, implied rule common to most games -- if you aren't told you can do something, you can't do it. It's not necessary for cards to explicitly tell you not to do things.
You are correct that neither the rules nor clarifications (I guess?) say you cannot look at the next card before deciding. However, this doesn't mean there's an ambiguity or confusion. What's more important is that the card doesn't say you *can* look at the next card, therefore you can't.
I believe there's a rule somewhere in the book that tells you you are not allowed to look at cards in your current deck. Unless this rule is explicitly over-ruled by a card, you have to follow that.
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You can't look at the top card. End of discussion.
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End of discussion.
> End of discussion.
> Dominion Strategy Forum.
Pick one.
Edit: That was supposed to be a joke...
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I can pick both!
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I can pick both!
You so need to lock the thread right after saying that!