Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => GokoDom => Topic started by: Kirian on March 28, 2013, 11:58:00 am
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The people have spoken. We all remember Isotropic and IsoDom fondly, but we have a new arena, and a new arena calls for a new tournament. Therefore, IsoDom is reborn as... GokoDom.
So we should probably change the subforum name.
Anyway! To business!
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The Tournament Spreadsheet is here!! (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkuKfENQMyHadFhmN2prbUZNR3JqRlFVN0J2ZThJclE#gid=0)
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Tournament Structure
GokoDom I is a multi-round Swiss tournament with a final playoff between the top eight players. By entering, you're committing to play the first five rounds, that is, about five weeks; if you feel you have a good shot at the top eight, you're committing to three more weeks. There will be some leeway, but the nature of a Swiss tournament is such that the entire previous round must be finished before the next round can begin.
- There will be only one bracket.
- I may use the Challonge bracket system again, but chances are I will not; their system is a bit less flexible than I would like.
- Tiebreakers and absentees (including matches not played due to time conflicts) will be dealt with in a manner to be discussed later--they're complex--but will be run quite closely to what is used by FIDE (World Chess Federation).
- The first round will not be seeded with respect to any sort of rating; instead, it will be seeded based on who has the cards--ideally, all first round matches will have all cards.
- Later rounds may be arranged such that as many matches as possible have as many cards as possible; however, this will not be the major seeding criterion.
- Incomplete matches will be counted so long as at least three games have been played.
Round Structure
- Each round you will play a single two-player match. This match will be first to three wins, with a maximum of six games.
- The player who owns more cards will host each game.
- It is strongly recommended that games be "Professional" games in which cards are not revealed to the players beforehand; this is negotiable within each match but is the default if either player does not agree to modification.
Some sort of extra stipulation will be needed to partially account for Goko's first-turn problem. I welcome discussion on this point, and any thoughts. Even Isotropic wasn't perfect; it was possible for someone to win a match by winning three times from the first seat. I'd like to use the following suggestion as a starting point: "In order to win a match, you must have won more games from the second seat than your opponent, with a minimum of one second-seat win."
Other Stuff
- Signups are open until Wednesday 10 April.
- If you've already signed up in this thread's poll (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7592.0), consider yourself in, unless you decide to bow out.
- If you didn't sign up in that thread, please indicate in this thread whether you have all, some, or none of the sets on Goko.
- The first round will be paired by Friday 12 April.
- Each round except the first will last one week, with each round ending on Sunday at midnight PDT, and pairings determined Monday morning EDT.
Fabulous Prizes1
That's right! For the first time in IsoDom/GokoDom history, prizes1 will be offered! Our winner will receive:
- A +1 from SirPeebles2
- The adulation3 of your peers
- A mention on the Who's Who on the Wiki4
- The official GokoDom trophy5
- One copper6 penny
- A coupon7 for $1 off your next drink at the coffee house where my local game group meets
- AND Kirian will follow you on Twitter8
Sign up soon, and enjoy yourselves!
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1For certain definitions of "fabulous" and "prize"
2On a post of yours to be determined later
3Adulation not actually guaranteed
4Probably someone will get around to it eventually
5Actual trophy is just a blank Dominion card inscribed9 "GokoDom I: A WINNAR IS YOU" and signed10 by Kirian
6Did you know the actual copper content is only 2.5%? Yeah, it's mostly zinc with copper cladding. Still, zinc prices are high enough that the metal is worth more than one cent.11
7Which may or may not be expired
8Kirian has no Twitter followers, so no one will notice
9With a Sharpie
10Using my forum name
11Which is why it's illegal to melt them down
12This footnote is referenced only by itself13, but is an actual reference to something else14
13Apparently that was a blatant lie
14And if you know what that reference is, you're awesome, but there's no extra prize. Sorry.
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So I realized, hey, not everyone necessarily knows how a Swiss tournament works. So along with talking about how pairing, byes, and absences will be handled, I'll give a very quick rundown of a Swiss tournament.
The basic idea of a Swiss tournament is that people with equal scores play each other in each round. The first round is often randomly seeded. In the second round, N players will have won their match, N players will have lost, and M players will have drawn. For the second round, players who won will be paired with other players who won, players who lost with others who lost, and players who drew with other who drew. There is a major extra constraint, though: no player will play any other player twice. For instance, if there's only one drawn match in the first round, one of the players who drew will play someone who won in the first round; the other will play someone who lost.
We will add another constraint, which is that players should play as many matches as possible with all the card sets.
We will use scores of 2 for a match win, 1 for a draw, and 0 for a loss, so that we don't have to mess with fractions.
Pairing Algorithms
First Round
Players will be placed into two bins1 consisting of (A) those with all sets on Goko, and (B) those with some or zero sets. One player from each bin will be randomly paired until one bin is empty. If the empty bin contains players who have some sets, they will be paired first with players who have no sets.
We will treat these bins A and B as colors in later algorithms.
Second Round
Players will be placed into six bins based on score and available sets: 2A, 2B, 1A, 1B, 0A, 0B. Players in 2A and 2B will be randomly paired until one bin is empty, as will players in 0A and 0B. The system for determining the remaining pairings will necessarily depend on which bins remain; the system will preferentially pair games that will have all sets available, while excluding games that would have two players paired a second time, and excluding more than one pairing between a player with 2 points and a player with 0 points (and this pairing will only exist if there are no draws and an odd number of players in each bin).
Tie-Breaking
After two rounds, tie-breakers become necessary for determining pairing. Tie-breakers will be as follows:
(1) Solkoff score. This is the sum of the current scores of all opponents played. For instance, if A beats B, B beats C, and A and C draw, then:
A has score = 3, Solkoff = 3
B has score = 2, Solkoff = 4
C has score = 1, Solkoff = 5
(2) Cumulative score. This is the sum of the player's scores as the rounds progress. A player who goes W-L-D-W has scores of 2, 2, 3, 5 at the end of each round, and cumulative scores of 2, 4, 7, 12 at the end of each round.
(3) Cumulative opponents' scores. This is the sum of the cumulative scores of all opponents played.
(4) Result between ties. If two players are still tied at this point and have played one another, the winner of that game wins the tie.
(5) After all rounds, if a tie still exists for eighth place, that tie will be broken by a coin flip.
Further Rounds
Pairing algorithm is as follows:
(1) Order players according to score, then secondarily according to tiebreaker rules in order. There will be many ties still, which means there will be an ordered set of bins k = 1, 2, ... , N. Each player can further be labeled based on this bin plus original bin A or B.
(2) Choose a random player in the highest bin. Pair this player based on the following priorities:
(A) With a player in this bin of opposite color
(B) With a player in the next lower bin of opposite color
(C) With a player in this bin of the same color
(D) With a player in the next bin of the same color (if this bin is empty)
At each level, exclude pairings that would cause two players to meet a second time. (In later rounds, this may cause players to be two or more bins apart.)
Repeat until all players are paired.
Byes and Unplayed Matches
Both of these situations mess with Solkoff and other tie-breaker scores, as those scores rely on the status of the opponent... who may or may not exist. First, though, we classify these types of matches.
(1) Bye Match: If there are an odd number of players, the lowest player will receive a bye each round. The player who receives a Bye wins by default.
(2) Pure Win by Default: Player A makes an effort to schedule the match, while player B is unresponsive. Player A notifies me by PM of this situation, and player B does not say anything; Player A wins by default, Player B loses by default.
(3) Draw by Default: Both players make good-faith efforts to schedule a match, but are unable to find a mutually agreeable time. BOTH players must inform me of this situation; each receives a draw by default.
(4) Mutual Default: A match is unplayed and neither player makes contact with me. Both players lose by default.
For scoring purposes, a win, draw, or loss by default still counts as 2, 1, or 0 points. For tie-breaker scores, a win by default counts as 1 point, and a draw or loss by default counts as 0 points.
All defaults generate a pair of virtual opponents, one for each player. The virtual opponent generated depends on the default:
(1) A player who wins by default is considered to have played, for that round, a virtual opponent that started the round with the same number of points as the player, lost to the player, and draws every later round. So, a player who wins in round 1, draws in round 2, and then wins by default in the third round, is considered to have played an opponent who will end the tournament with 2 + 1 + 0 + 1 + 1 = 5 points. That virtual opponent will have cumulative scores of 2, 3, 3, 4, 5.
(2) A player who draws by default is considered to have played, for that round, a virtual opponent that started the round with the same numbers of points as the player, drew with the player, and draws every later round.
(3) A player who loses by default is considered to have played an opponent that has lost all matches.
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OK... I hope that's explicit enough for everyone!
1Computational bins, wise guy
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Reserved for final decisions on first-player solutions.
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in
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In
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/in
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In
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/in.
regarding first player: A possible workaround might be to restart games untilo you have the desired starting player.
Also I think rules regarding how matchups will be made should be clearly stated. I fear taht the current vague ruling might lead to disputes.
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Already submitted to the poll, but in please. And I have all the sets (but no promos yet).
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yay
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In.
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/in.
regarding first player: A possible workaround might be to restart games untilo you have the desired starting player.
I thought about that, but it means someone will have to resign, which causes rating changes. I'm not sure how people feel about that.
Also I think rules regarding how matchups will be made should be clearly stated. I fear taht the current vague ruling might lead to disputes.
You mean the way the pairings are generated? Swiss system is relatively self-explanatory; the only extra allowance is that people may have their order bumped up or down a place in order to pair people who have as many sets as possible, especially in the second round. (This is similar to the way FIDE tournaments will bump someone up or down so that they alternate playing black and white as much as possible.)
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Already submitted to the poll, but in please.
Ditto.
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/in.
regarding first player: A possible workaround might be to restart games untilo you have the desired starting player.
I thought about that, but it means someone will have to resign, which causes rating changes. I'm not sure how people feel about that.
Well, I thought one of the huge complaints about Goko was you can just quit the game instead of resigning?
Also I think rules regarding how matchups will be made should be clearly stated. I fear taht the current vague ruling might lead to disputes.
You mean the way the pairings are generated? Swiss system is relatively self-explanatory; the only extra allowance is that people may have their order bumped up or down a place in order to pair people who have as many sets as possible, especially in the second round. (This is similar to the way FIDE tournaments will bump someone up or down so that they alternate playing black and white as much as possible.)
But they use a deterministic alorithm that you could potentially look at for that, don't they? The problem i see here is that people might be an unhappy with however the arbitrary ruling turns out.
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Count me in.
I like your suggestion for second player wins but I think the unique match situations which result in wins/losses/draws need to be clearly defined.
For example...
Player A splits his match with player B 3-3, but has one second player win while player B has none. Is the match result a win for player A?
Player A wins 6 games in the match (6-0), all as first player. Is the match result a draw?
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/in
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In
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Addendum!
If you're in, but didn't reply in the other thread, please indicate whether you have all the sets of just some!
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/in
I guess you're using data from the poll, but I might as well reiterate that I have each of the expansions, but none of the promos.
ppe: ninja'd with the answer! But I'll leave that there anyway :P
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But they use a deterministic alorithm that you could potentially look at for that, don't they? The problem i see here is that people might be an unhappy with however the arbitrary ruling turns out.
I will also use something as deterministic as I can; I just haven't decided what, exactly, I will use. My intent is that no one should be knocked out of their "normal" Swiss pairing by more than one slot. And that will still be overridden by not playing the same person more than once.
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/in
I only have base set...
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I was hoping that your last footnote would reference LastFootnote.
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/in
Only base set + 3 cards from DarkAges promo
Long time lurker... :)
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But they use a deterministic alorithm that you could potentially look at for that, don't they? The problem i see here is that people might be an unhappy with however the arbitrary ruling turns out.
I will also use something as deterministic as I can; I just haven't decided what, exactly, I will use. My intent is that no one should be knocked out of their "normal" Swiss pairing by more than one slot. And that will still be overridden by not playing the same person more than once.
Then I have no objections.
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/In
I have all cards except the three promos
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In
All sets + envoy
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I'd like to join too. Currently I only have the base cards (there is a small chance this will change).
In order to win a match, you must have won more games from the second seat than your opponent, with a minimum of one second-seat win.
This sounds like a really bad idea to me. If this ruling is used, you cannot win if you go first, you can only lose, because if you win it is not counted. So suppose you play five games, and you win them all, it's still tied (no players have had a second-seat win), and if you lose even once, you're behind. Unless I misunderstand what you mean...
Also, how is the starting player determined at Goko? Randomly?
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In.
Only have base set
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In. All sets. No promo.
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I'm in. I have all sets and Governor.
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In.
I only have base set right now but I plan on buying all the sets before the tournament starts.
EDIT: I now have all sets.
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/In.
I have only base.
I'm willing to give the seat up if there is need for more people that actually have bought the cards to sign up. While I don't want to buy Goko's product, I don't want to annoy people that do either, especially people in this forum. I'd be in favor of people with more cards having priority to sign up (if such a thing is needed), but I'd be strongly against people with more cards having advantage within the tournament.
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In!
All the sets + Governor.
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In
All cards bar promo
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In, all sets + Governor + Walled Village
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Pairing and default rules have been posted in the second post. I know someone requested a more detailed description of pairing.
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I actually have to /out. :(
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The tournament spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkuKfENQMyHadFhmN2prbUZNR3JqRlFVN0J2ZThJclE#gid=0) is now linked in the first post!
If you think you're in the tournament, please check to make sure you're on there!
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The tournament spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkuKfENQMyHadFhmN2prbUZNR3JqRlFVN0J2ZThJclE#gid=0) is now linked in the first post!
If you think you're in the tournament, please check to make sure you're on there!
I see that my alt account 'sandstorm 2' also made the tournament
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The tournament spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkuKfENQMyHadFhmN2prbUZNR3JqRlFVN0J2ZThJclE#gid=0) is now linked in the first post!
If you think you're in the tournament, please check to make sure you're on there!
I see that my alt account 'sandstorm 2' also made the tournament
Good way to increase your odds.
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I actually have to /out. :(
Really ???
Bummer! Was hoping to see if tourney Morgrim7 was more like mafiaMorg or boardMorg!
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The tournament spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkuKfENQMyHadFhmN2prbUZNR3JqRlFVN0J2ZThJclE#gid=0) is now linked in the first post!
If you think you're in the tournament, please check to make sure you're on there!
I see that my alt account 'sandstorm 2' also made the tournament
Good way to increase your odds.
Until I make him play against himself.
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Hmmm, i dont see any reason not to participate, count me in. Unfortunately i hadnt bought any extra sets yet.
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I hope I'm not about to open Pandora's Box but is the goko log prettifier add-on legal for this tournament?
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Why on earth wouldn't it be? It only shows information available anyway.
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Why on earth wouldn't it be? It only shows information available anyway.
Well you could say the same thing about the iso extension but not everyone was cool with that. I would expect that the Goko log add-on will be allowed but just want to make sure everyone is aware about it up front.
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It adds exactly zero information that isn't already available. I'd go so far as to say it's strongly recommended.
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I am in.
I have all the expansions, but no promos.
In order to win a match, you must have won more games from the second seat than your opponent, with a minimum of one second-seat win.
I strongly approve of something like this because it helps correct for first player advantage, and having matches end in ties after 6 games is not a problem with Swiss.
One thing to clarify: does a shared victory count as a win or a tie?
The way I am interpreting the description, it would count as a win. So if 5 games were played between A and B, and A wins 2 games outright and B wins 2 games outright (all wins by first player), and the shared victory was when A went first, then the match ends after 5 games and B gets the match win (because B is first to three wins and has won more games from the second seat than A). However, if the first player wins every game outright for the first 5 games, then the match goes to the sixth game, and if the first player again wins the sixth game (so each player has won three games and no player has won from the second seat), then the match ends in a tie.
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I would count ties as ties. The way polk explained seems to give some 2nd seat advantage in some sense.
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In
But I have no sets (unless you count the 3 cards from the redeem card in Dark Ages)
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I had signed up by vote in the other thread but I wanted to amend that there I had said I only had base; the possibility of playing in a tournament has pretty much tipped me over the edge to paying for Goko and I now have all sets (but no promos yet).
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I think I misread the spreadsheet and sent watno a pm that was unnecessary. sorry about that.
when does the first round start? I'm away until the 8th.
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I think I misread the spreadsheet and sent watno a pm that was unnecessary. sorry about that.
when does the first round start? I'm away until the 8th.
Signups are open until the 10th. So don't worry about being gone. :)
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I think I misread the spreadsheet and sent watno a pm that was unnecessary. sorry about that.
when does the first round start? I'm away until the 8th.
You already managed to confuse me.
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/In
Sadly I have no expansions :(
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In. I have all the sets, and I just got Governor.
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I previously said I had some of the cards, but I now have all of them except one half of seaside (I'll get the other half once I know how much Guilds is gonna cost) and the promo's.
One point that hasn't been discussed: how are disconnections/computer crashes dealt with? My laptop crashes fairly regularly (~once/day while playing on Goko) due to heating issues and I'm not sure whether I'd still be interested in playing if that resulted in a loss by default. Maybe wait with the tournament until Goko adds the option to reconnect?
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Huh, don't realize I'm already in this spreadsheet. But yeah, why not. I'm in.
EDIT: All cards, 3 promos.
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Huh, don't realize I'm already in this spreadsheet. But yeah, why not. I'm in.
EDIT: All cards, 3 promos.
You probably voted in the first poll I posted.
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One point that hasn't been discussed: how are disconnections/computer crashes dealt with? My laptop crashes fairly regularly (~once/day while playing on Goko) due to heating issues and I'm not sure whether I'd still be interested in playing if that resulted in a loss by default. Maybe wait with the tournament until Goko adds the option to reconnect?
On Iso, this was generally dealt with by the players of that match, because in general we trust people to follow Wheaton's Law (https://twitter.com/wilw/status/5966220832) around here. Usually the players treated a disconnection as an unplayed game, except in the case where one player was obviously going to win anyway.
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A change: I got all sets (but no promo's).
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I'm in please.
I have most of the sets (haven't paid for Cornucopia or Alchemy yet) and I have the governor promo card. Might make the splash and pay for the rest of the sets by the time the tournament kicks off!
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I am in please. I have all expansion and the 3 promo cards
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Keeping records for myself: Everyone to this point is in the spreadsheet.
Signups remain open until 10 April!
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I would like to still play in this tournament, despite my statement in that other thread, because I can actually keep my opponents honest here.
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I will purchase the sets if you match me with Robz so I can quit when I am losing.
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I haven't played in any of these, but I'd like to \in for this one. Gotta start playing tournaments sometime, considering how obsessive I am with this game. I've got all the sets and some promos (I think Walled Village and Governor? But not yet Stash or Envoy? Not 100% sure)
With 1 week to play each round I should be able to schedule time to play.
BTW, at the moment, since refreshing the browser doesn't count as a win or a loss for anyone, you can game who is 1st player and 2nd player by just refreshing out until it's what you want. Let the first one be random and then alternate from there?
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Just wanted to note that I now have all the sets.
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Hi i would like to play in this tournament
I dont have any set.
user name
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In.
never played an IsoDom tournament so i´m not quite clear about the rating system and so on. Can somebody tell me what i exactly have to do?(in simple english) ;D
just play games or save and post the log or just the result?
greetings RTT
btw- I have Dark Ages- Cornucopia and Prosperity
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Unfortunately I am going to have to withdraw from the tournament. I hope GokoDom I is a smashing success so that I will have a chance to participate in future tournaments.
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I'm in.
Don't have any cards, though.
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I'll give it a go. I have only hinterlands and base.
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In. I only have the three bonus cards from the Dark Ages thing.
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I love how I never check in to this subforum. Probably would be best to PM me once things get started.
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I love how I never check in to this subforum. Probably would be best to PM me once things get started.
I'll be PMing everyone tonight to make sure they're still in. If you're in, though, I'd strongly recommend you look at your unread posts from time to time.
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I swear I hit a slump every time one of these tournaments is starting. (I haven't won a game in days)
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And I haven't played a game in weeks! I'm going to be very very rusty.
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In if it's not too late. (not always sure with those time zone thingy).
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I must unfortunately bow out. Thanks.
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I'm in. Albeit near the last minute, but in nonetheless.
EDIT: I only have base.
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Hrm. The forum needs a copy/paste ability for sending PMs!
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READ THIS
I have just sent PMs to all who signed up for the tournament. You must reply as confirmation so I know you're still around! Reply by tomorrow, Friday 12 April at 23:59 EDT.
Pairings will be posted Saturday.
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Oh right.
If you DIDN'T get a PM but expected to... well, go ahead and PM me.
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Small note: I'm actually dropping out of the tournament myself. Running the tournament actually takes less time per week than scheduling a block of time to play a best-of-5, once everything's set up, and a few deadlines that I had thought were looser suddenly... aren't.
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That's too bad, but thanks for still organizing the tourney!
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Have any decisions been made on how first player advantage will be handled in GokoDom?
If your original suggestion is used, how will some of the "edge case" match results be handled? (for example: 6-0 match "win" all as first player. Is this match judged to be a tie since neither player met the second player wins condition?)
Reason I ask is that I've played at least 2 or 3 IsoDom matches in the past where the first player won all 7 games and I'm curious how this will be handled now.
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Have any decisions been made on how first player advantage will be handled in GokoDom?
If your original suggestion is used, how will some of the "edge case" match results be handled? (for example: 6-0 match "win" all as first player. Is this match judged to be a tie since neither player met the second player wins condition?)
Reason I ask is that I've played at least 2 or 3 IsoDom matches in the past where the first player won all 7 games and I'm curious how this will be handled now.
Yeah... I really don't see any impressively satisfactory solutions. My original idea leaves too many edge cases open. Forcing people to resign and restart messes with ratings (though one can argue those are already messy enough). Ignoring the problem, well, just makes individual matches less likely to be valid.
My priority, though, is tournament integrity, not people's ratings. So, we're going to go with restarts as the default, with some specific rules:
Turn Order
To maintain tournament integrity, games will be played as normally encountered on Iso; the loser of the previous game should go first in the next game. This will require resignation and restart of some games. Robz has pointed out the obvious solution, which is:
Use the "Unrated" setting.
This is the default.
Now, if you feel, for some reason, that you really don't trust your opponent not to have created a ton of pre-made sets--which seems unlikely--you may play on the Pro setting, using the following guidelines:
(1) The first time a game must be restarted, the winner of the previous game will resign, and both players will record their rating change.
(2) The next time a game must be restarted, the other player will resign, and both players will record the rating change from that game, then add together the rating changes (one of which will be negative or zero). The player who has a net positive rating change will be next to resign.
(3) After each game, repeat the process; the player who has had a net positive rating gain will resign.
If both players agree beforehand, you may alternately do one of the following:
(a) Rather than keeping track of ratings, simply alternate resignations (recommended anyway for players with ratings with ~1000 of each other, as that's what will probably happen anyway).
(b) Ignore turn order during the match. Use this option at your own peril.
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Why doesn't everyone just play casual for the tournament, so as not to influence the pro rating?
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That, I suppose, could also work... duh.
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Why doesn't everyone just play casual for the tournament, so as not to influence the pro rating?
Random sets would need to be generated
Does casual mode not generate random sets?
Even if it doesn't do so automatically, I think that's an easier problem to get around. Just use dominiondeck.com, or something.
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Why doesn't everyone just play casual for the tournament, so as not to influence the pro rating?
Random sets would need to be generated
Does casual mode not generate random sets?
Even if it doesn't do so automatically, I think that's an easier problem to get around. Just use dominiondeck.com, or something.
It does generate random sets, though a certain amount of trust is required. I'm going to assume we can trust people here on the forum, but if you really, truly feel you can't, the other option remains open.
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Meanwhile
Seven people have not responded to their PMs. I've sent you each a new PM; please respond if you still intend to play. If you don't, I'll pair you with one another for the first round, and if those games are unplayed, it'll be easy to drop people.
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Turn Order
To maintain tournament integrity, games will be played as normally encountered on Iso; the loser of the previous game should go first in the next game. This will require resignation and restart of some games. Robz has pointed out the obvious solution, which is:
Use the "Unrated" setting.
Some questions:
Who starts if the last game was draw? The player who didn't start the last game?
And who starts the first game? Randomly (chosen by Goko), or specified by the pairing?
And a suggestion: how about only restarting the game if the current starting player already has been starting player too often in that match before. Say, a player who has already been starting player twice cannot be starting player again (unless the other player has also been starting player for at least two times). This entails that the players have to keep track of how much time they have been starting player in the current match, but that isn't a problem, I guess... And the advantage is you have to restart games way less than in your option.
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Kirian, I like the unrated solution.
But I am still a little confused.
Does this means the "you need to win one game from second seat" rule stands? You are just adding the additional constraint of loser goes first? (I hope this is the case because I really like the idea of calling the match a tie if each win is from the first seat.)
Edit: I like it because of the analogy with tennis. You must win a "break" to win outright.
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Who starts if the last game was draw? The player who didn't start the last game?
If the game is tied, the same player should start the next game.
And who starts the first game? Randomly (chosen by Goko), or specified by the pairing?
Random, yes.
And a suggestion: how about only restarting the game if the current starting player already has been starting player too often in that match before.
No; this gives a situation where player A wins from seat 1, then wins again from seat 1, putting player B at a severe disadvantage.
Does this means the "you need to win one game from second seat" rule stands? You are just adding the additional constraint of loser goes first? (I hope this is the case because I really like the idea of calling the match a tie if each win is from the first seat.)
Edit: I like it because of the analogy with tennis. You must win a "break" to win outright.
While I do like the idea thanks to the tennis analogy, I'm loath to do it if it's not being used for seat position, because it introduces a number of edge cases... what if the players go 2-2-2, but because of seat switching, neither won a game from the first seat, but player A was in the first seat for both ties?
I've discussed the tennis thing before (though I'm not going to hunt for the link right now), but a consensus "best idea" was never reached. Perhaps we can reach one before the next GokoDom.
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I think after a tie start player should switch.
With the existing rules a 4, 2 starting player split is possible over the 6 games.
(p1 WLDWLW)
Also would it be a good idea to play game 6 if the score if 3-2 in favour of the starting player from game 1?
If start player has won all games then a chance at a 3-3 draw seems like a good thing to me.
Main reason to avoid draws is a knock out format.
But swiss can cope with draws quite well.
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If a game is tied, the OPPOSITE player should start the next game, yes?
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Would it be a good idea to play game 6 if the score if 3-2 in favour of the starting player from game 1?
If start player has won all games then a chance at a 3-3 draw seems like a good thing to me.
Main reason to avoid draws is a knock out format.
But swiss can cope with draws quite well.
I completely agree with this. I think that is the issue -- having a system where this case follows from the rules, and the strange edge cases that follow because of ties make sense.
Maybe it makes sense to just rule on this one case (which is most likely to happen) and make a decision on what to do about ties (ignore them, count as half pt?) and leave it at that? Even the 2012 Championship rules were vague, just being first to 4 wins, ignoring ties, loser goes first -- if I remember correctly.
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But, just to be clear, this is how I would now interpret the rules with the second seat win condition:
- Game win = 1 point for winner
- Game tie = 0.5 point for each player
- Track total win points AND points won from second seat for each player
- First game: random player goes first (Goko decides)
- Second game and after: loser of previous game goes first, or in the case of a tie same/opposite (TBD) player goes first
- MATCH WIN CONDITION: At least 3 win points AND has strictly more points won from the second seat than the other player
- 6 games maximum. If match win condition is not satisfied by either player after 6 games, then the match is a tie.
This gives Rabid's case of 3-2 goes to game 6 if first player always wins, and if first player wins again in game 6, match is a tie. 3-2 also goes to game 6 if each player won one game from second seat. 3-1 matches always end after 4 games.
2-2-1 matches always go to the sixth game (if draws are 0.5 points). And you would then have cases like this one (from player A's perspective): DWLWL (A goes first first game, and first again after the draw) and if A wins 6th game, match is a draw (because A has 3.5 points, but fewer second seat win points than B), but if B wins or draws, B wins the match. If B draws, this would be similar to Kirian's case: 2-2-2 with B winning both draws from the second seat, and B wins the match.
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Would it be a good idea to play game 6 if the score if 3-2 in favour of the starting player from game 1?
If start player has won all games then a chance at a 3-3 draw seems like a good thing to me.
Main reason to avoid draws is a knock out format.
But swiss can cope with draws quite well.
I completely agree with this. I think that is the issue -- having a system where this case follows from the rules, and the strange edge cases that follow because of ties make sense.
Maybe it makes sense to just rule on this one case (which is most likely to happen) and make a decision on what to do about ties (ignore them, count as half pt?) and leave it at that? Even the 2012 Championship rules were vague, just being first to 4 wins, ignoring ties, loser goes first -- if I remember correctly.
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But, just to be clear, this is how I would now interpret the rules with the second seat win condition:
- Game win = 1 point for winner
- Game tie = 0.5 point for each player
- Track total win points AND points won from second seat for each player
- First game: random player goes first (Goko decides)
- Second game and after: loser of previous game goes first, or in the case of a tie same/opposite (TBD) player goes first
- MATCH WIN CONDITION: At least 3 win points AND has strictly more points won from the second seat than the other player
- 6 games maximum. If match win condition is not satisfied by either player after 6 games, then the match is a tie.
This gives Rabid's case of 3-2 goes to game 6 if first player always wins, and if first player wins again in game 6, match is a tie. 3-2 also goes to game 6 if each player won one game from second seat. 3-1 matches always end after 4 games.
2-2-1 matches always go to the sixth game (if draws are 0.5 points). And you would then have cases like this one (from player A's perspective): DWLWL (A goes first first game, and first again after the draw) and if A wins 6th game, match is a draw (because A has 3.5 points, but fewer second seat win points than B), but if B wins or draws, B wins the match. If B draws, this would be similar to Kirian's case: 2-2-2 with B winning both draws from the second seat, and B wins the match.
Man, with all of that I'm tempted to say, "Eh, just play six games, and we'll adjudicate who won the match." I will consider it for next time around, though.
I do think Robz's base idea has merit, and is simple enough to follow for this time. I'll set up a thread for discussion for next "season." We need something both fair and relatively simple.
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Now that it has been ruled that we are using the "Isotropic" seating method, it shouldn't matter in what seat that a player gets their wins from. This only holds if, after a tie game, player order is switched.
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Note that for the Robz method, the math works out such that if the leading player in the 3-2 started in the second seat--win or lose--he had more breaks and therefore wins. Only if the leader started in the first seat does the sixth game happen.
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Kirian, the scoring procedure you have posted in the results thread looks good.
I am excited to begin play!
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based on the discussion here, i posted an idea on getsatisfaction requesting a tournamnet mode for professional games. If some people care enough to support the idea, we can get it on their shortlist for things to implement.
heres the link: https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/tournament_mode-vvsld
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Tournament mode
Edit Subject i'd really like to see the possibility to play a series of games (best of 5, best of 7,..) against the same player in pro mode, with the implemented rule that the loser of the game is allowed to start the next game. In case of a tied game the player that was 2nd player goes first in the next game.
That would allow people to organize and run small tournaments. I think the f.ds community would be very intrested in such a feature. right now you can only play unranked games, and one player has to quit as long as the right order is established.
Unranked games just feel wrong for a Tournament. and it also gives some sort of advantage to the host of the game, because he can decide what sort of kingdoms are played, by using predefined kingdoms.
Ideally i see a button "play series of games" with a field where you enter the numer of games for the series (7 for a best of 7games).
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This is almost creepy (http://xkcd.com/)... is Kirian Randall Munroe?
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This is almost creepy (http://xkcd.com/)... is Kirian Randall Munroe?
lol, Don't I wish!