Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion Online at Shuffle iT => Dominion General Discussion => Goko Dominion Online => Topic started by: thirtyseven on March 08, 2013, 12:39:37 pm
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Note: I am just freely expressing my personal opinions here. If you identify with the group I'm ranting on, please don't take it personally. It could be I'm just reading you wrong. I'd love to hear your points of view for us to discuss as a community.
I'm switching to Goko because I love playing Dominion. Of course I am annoyed by some aspects of Goko, such as the chat box and the avatars. Of course I think Isotropic Dominion is better. But the game of Dominion---the love of the game---is what will make me happily switch to Goko. I like Goko because there you can play Dominion, the game I get a lot of enjoyment out of. I do not understand why anyone would quit playing Dominion just because of Goko. Unless you're playing Dominion IRL, you're giving up playing the game I thought you enjoyed. I don't understand how people seem to love the website Isotropic more than the game Dominion. It should be about the game, not the website it's on.
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I think the point is that dominion.isotropic exists and the only obstacle for it to continue to exist is Goko. Playing on Goko is, to some extent, supporting them (even if you do not spend any money, a big player base is a must to attract new playing people).
You can think of it as a Goko boycott or a Goko strike. You may disagree with some or all of the boycotting actions or the strikes, but at least some of those proved useful in the past, so I don't see how you can say they are "intrinsecally" useless. I guess the analogous more extreme argument against a strike would be "is better to have a lousy job with a lousy pay than no pay at all" and for the boycotts it would be "is better to pay the cheapest price for this shirt, why not buy the sweatshop kid-exploiting brand?". Of course Goko did nothing as bad as that (not even close), but the response against Goko some people have is also not extreme, and at least in my opinion, adequate.
For my own opinion, Goko did not work ok or better even once. Isotropic, on the other hand, works perfectly. When Iso is down if Goko is a nice activity, I may review my position. I doubt I'll get hooked up on Goko as I was hooked up by Isotropic, though, in the same way I was never hooked up on BSW, even though I've had regular affairs with many of the games they carry.
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Don't know if it's a strike, maybe in some weak form, for me it's just not an implementation that is worth $45, compared to other video games. . Maybe if you rationally calculate time*fun/price, it would be not the worst deal, but for me, that's the wrong calculation. First, I doubt fun will really be as large if there are the small itches like chat, or ...wevebeenthrouhthisbefore. Second, it's a bit game theory: If I buy things that are not worth their price anyway just because they a monopolized, I support developing subpar products and preventing better products just via IP rights. And I really have no fun doing this.
Not saying that exclusive license is a bad thing or that I know something better, but if you get exclusive rights better develop a good product and behave fairly, otherwise I will be very tempted to use my little bit of power I have in this game of free market to make this kind of concept less profitable.
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My argument is that a strike or boycott (whatever you want to call it) isn't worth giving up online Dominion for, and that Goko is become acceptable enough to make the switch. And it seems like Goko will continue to improve, not get worse. Thanks for both of your opinions, which did clarify things for me. I just still respectfully disagree.
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You guys know you can play on Goko for free, right?
And thirtyseven is right. Whatever deep moral objections you may have, if you don't switch, you're quitting playing online Dominion. And that's fine, if you don't care that much about playing online Dominion. But come next week there will be but one way to play, and there will be no point comparing the experience to one that no longer exists. It will be comparing apples and some long-extinct genetic precursor to apples.
Folks who really like to play Dominion online and are really sad but who refuse to switch just seem like they're cutting off their nose to spite their face.
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I would be willing to pay for Isotropic. But if I knew that you could optionally pay for an expansion for Isotropic and that DougZ was using the money for trying to legalize slavery or something, I would refuse to play it, even for free. Right, Goko is not at fault for the copyright law, but they are willingly choosing to utilize it which is a much smaller sin in my eyes, but still something I disagree with. And for me it's easier to stick to IRL Dominion than support someone I disagree with.
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But come next week there will be but one way to play, and there will be no point comparing the experience to one that no longer exists. It will be comparing apples and some long-extinct genetic precursor to apples.
No, it will be like comparing apples to some apples I just ate last week, which seems like a pretty reasonable comparison to make amongst apples.
edit: Comparing Goko to isotropic will be relevant at any stage in Goko's development because isotropic is an example of how Dominion can be implemented online. The good features of isotropic are still things to reasonably expect in any online implementation.
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Another argument I can make is that we've all been blessed, and spoiled, by Isotropic Dominion. The rights holders to the game could have prevented dougz from making his own implementation in the first place. Iso was great while it lasted, but it was a bonus, not a given. I say we're entitled to be able to play online Dominion, and that we're not necessarily entitled to have a free, Iso-esque implementation of it. I think we have to let go of that high sense of entitlement.
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It will be comparing apples and some long-extinct genetic precursor to apples.
I sure miss isopples.
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OP is missing the point.
I do not understand why anyone would quit playing Dominion just because of Goko.
Oh, I don't know, because I can't afford it, both in terms of time and money?
Look, one of my pet peeves is when someone declares "please don't take this personally, but I'm going to insult you publicly." You're just covering your ass by trying to be nice.
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How is not understanding you an insult? You can play on Goko without spending any money, and it doesn't take more time than playing on iso. So I don't understand you either, sorry if that insults you.
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How is not understanding you an insult? You can play on Goko without spending any money, and it doesn't take more time than playing on iso. So I don't understand you either, sorry if that insults you.
The OP seems to suggest that all True Dominion Fans should want to make the switch to Goko, because True Dominion Fans love Dominion enough to play online no matter what (this is the insulting part). Those who don't switch are merely stubborn Isotropic fanboys or something (also insulting). As dondon clearly points out, this thing costs Actual Monies, and so any person could reasonably decide not to switch because they don't want to spend the cash if the product isn't up to their standards (whatever those standards may be).
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Another argument I can make is that we've all been blessed, and spoiled, by Isotropic Dominion. The rights holders to the game could have prevented dougz from making his own implementation in the first place.
And I would have criticized them for that, too.
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How is not understanding you an insult?
It isn't, but the implications in the OP, as Mic pointed out, are insulting.
You can play on Goko without spending any money,
Yeah okay I'm not going to play Goko if I can only play the base set or if I have to piggyback off other users whom I don't even know in order to play with the expansions.
and it doesn't take more time than playing on iso.
Really, now? As far as matchmaking and gameplay speed go, both of those are more time-consuming on Goko than on Iso. Psychologically I would feel obligated to spend more time on Goko if I paid for it (whereas I play Iso almost exclusively during down time at work).
Note that Dominion is not my life, and I'm certain that's true for almost everyone here. I am not obligated to continue playing Dominion out of some sense of loyalty or love for the game. There are infinitely (well, not technically) many other ways in which I can choose to spend my time that are some combination of more fun, more fulfilling, and less expensive than playing Dominion on Goko. At some point we all have to move on, and the advent of Goko is as good a time as any.
The only reason why Goko is even marginally successful at this point is because they have eliminated the rest of the competition. Goko is safely sitting on a monopoly of gaming licenses and reaping the profits of reluctant converts and casual players who wouldn't know of better alternatives. In a hypothetical free market of online boardgaming, there is no way that Goko would be remotely competitive. The general tone of the majority of players here who are forced to convert to Goko is one of grudging reluctance; only a select few players would happily admit to preferring Goko over Iso, and even then I suspect that part of that is due to a Fox-News-esque desire to present a "fair and balanced" opinion.
I do not disagree that a Goko boycott would not change the course of online boardgaming. As I've said before, the fact of the matter is that several months from now, Goko naysayers will have been forgotten and the Dominion community will progress as it always has. There are simply too many people willing to pay $45 for a thoroughly mediocre product (because $45 is pocket change to most) for a boycott to effective, especially now that all alternatives to online Dominion have been shut down.
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I really don't think a boycott is going to accomplish much in this instance, which is why I am not on board. Some of the things I have seen people say in other places besides this forum look childish to me, and only give me more reason to distance myself from the red-hot Goko haters.
Whether Goko lives or dies or even thrives on its own merit remains yet to be seen. I just can't get that worked up about a game. A game!
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There are 3 new replies since I typed this out, so I'm just going to post this and worry about the other posts later.
OP is missing the point.
I do not understand why anyone would quit playing Dominion just because of Goko.
Oh, I don't know, because I can't afford it, both in terms of time and money?
Look, one of my pet peeves is when someone declares "please don't take this personally, but I'm going to insult you publicly." You're just covering your ass by trying to be nice.
You'll just have to take my word for it I meant no offense. I'm sorry my wording didn't convey that better.
As to your argument, time and money spent on Goko can be the same as the time and money you spent on Iso. I haven't paid for anything yet on Goko; you get the Base set for free. If you can't spend any time on Goko, then that's a perfect reason not to switch, but that would also mean you can't spend time on Iso either, and my arguments are not directed against you in the first place.
How is not understanding you an insult? You can play on Goko without spending any money, and it doesn't take more time than playing on iso. So I don't understand you either, sorry if that insults you.
The OP seems to suggest that all True Dominion Fans should want to make the switch to Goko, because True Dominion Fans love Dominion enough to play online no matter what (this is the insulting part). Those who don't switch are merely stubborn Isotropic fanboys or something (also insulting). As dondon clearly points out, this thing costs Actual Monies, and so any person could reasonably decide not to switch because they don't want to spend the cash if the product isn't up to their standards (whatever those standards may be).
I do agree with both of you that having to pay for the expansions is a perfectly valid reason to not switch to Goko, and I mistakenly failed to mention that in my first post. It makes you no less of a "true Dominion fan" if you don't switch. That's not what I'm saying at all, and I'm sorry it came across that way. Playing IRL is just as valid. If you stop playing altogether (permanently), online and IRL, then yes, I would question your love for the game.
The point of this thread was to share my perceptions on this situation and get feedback from other points of view to help clarify things, and that's what's been happening. I'm totally open to changing my opinions based on our discussion. Again, I would like to apologize to all those insulted my my words.
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If you can't spend any time on Goko, then that's a perfect reason not to switch, but that would also mean you can't spend time on Iso either, and my arguments are not directed against you in the first place.
This is false. Read my post again (though I understand that you may not have gotten to it yet, but I just want to point out that I've already established why Goko's time cost is different from Iso's time cost, the least of which is the fact that Goko is slower.)
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My perception is that Goko screwed things up royally by using an untested technology and they managed to somehow convince a lot of licsenors and licensees that HTML 5 was really more than a fad. News flash: it wasn't. And still isn't.
My perception is that game companies/designers were foolish to jump on that bandwagon. Many did, but not all. Chris C. didn't, and I'm glad that he didn't.
My perception is that if going with Goko really was as bad an idea as I feared, Jay T. and Donald X. will end up paying dearly for that bad choice one way or another. It will hurt a lot more than any organized boycott could.
My perception is that it will take time to know if Goko will be successful in any practical business sense. I believe the disastrous roll out last August hurt them, but for some reason, they're still around. Venture capitalists do like to at least recoup their investments.
My perception is that Dominion =/= Isotropic. Dominion is a solid game. Isotropic is a solid foundation for online board gaming. Perhaps, should he so choose, DougZ could go on to commercialize his platform somehow someday. I have had the privilege of playing Innovation on Isotropic, and I think Chris C. and Carl Chudyk are going to be occupying a lot of my time online whereas Jay T. and Donald X. used to, but Dominion itself is a solid product. I'd encourage my fellow gamers to remember that the GAME is not the PLATFORM, and vice versa.
Thirtyseven, I hope that whether this gives you any new insight or not, I at least sound reasonable. With all the screeching harpies out there whining about Donad X. being a "money-grubbing whore"(not my words! I actually saw that on a status in the Iso Dominion lobby!), I think we all need to step back and gain a little perspective. Dominion's not dying. And neither is Iso. They will both live and thrive in their own respective rights, just not as a part of one another.
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My perception is that Dominion =/= Isotropic. Dominion is a solid game. Isotropic is a solid foundation for online board gaming.
I think this statement is pretty grandiose - much of what you're calling "Isotropic" is likely quite specific to Dominion UI, and the parts that aren't don't seem particularly different from how internet game servers have run for a long time. I've looked briefly at Innovation (which I'm not familiar with) and it doesn't look nearly as amenable to the isotropic style UI that fits Dominion so well. More than most games I know, Dominion fits really well with being played online. (edit: That said, I'm now interested in learning Innovation, so mission accomplished there. We'll have to see if a remotely comparable player base ever gets established.)
I'm having a hard time imagining being offended over one's true Dominion fanhood being impugned. I guess that's a meta-insult.
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My perception is that Dominion =/= Isotropic. Dominion is a solid game. Isotropic is a solid foundation for online board gaming.
I think this statement is pretty grandiose - much of what you're calling "Isotropic" is likely quite specific to Dominion UI, and the parts that aren't don't seem particularly different from how internet game servers have run for a long time. I've looked briefly at Innovation (which I'm not familiar with) and it doesn't look nearly as amenable to the isotropic style UI that fits Dominion so well. More than most games I know, Dominion fits really well with being played online. (edit: That said, I'm now interested in learning Innovation, so mission accomplished there. We'll have to see if a remotely comparable player base ever gets established.)
I'm having a hard time imagining being offended over one's true Dominion fanhood being impugned. I guess that's a meta-insult.
I've had some people say that on the other hand, they believe that Innovation fits the Isotropic UI better. I'm agnostic on that point as I don't do online programming. I just know that I enjoy playing Dominion (which I played tabletop first), and I enjoy playing Innovation (which I have yet to play tabletop, but I intend to purchase a copy now). Innovation's existence as an Isotropic game is pretty strong evidence to me that the game doesn't equal the platform -- and that's coming from someone who thinks that Goko's rollout was a disaster, and whom has no intent of ever spending money there.
I don't find the OP here particularly galling or insulting. It's the childish anonymous insults I see being flung at RGG and Donald X. that really annoy me, but it says more about the whiny little "I'm entitled to free stuff" hippies than it says about what may yet turn out to be a poor business decision on RGG's part.
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If you can't spend any time on Goko, then that's a perfect reason not to switch, but that would also mean you can't spend time on Iso either, and my arguments are not directed against you in the first place.
This is false. Read my post again (though I understand that you may not have gotten to it yet, but I just want to point out that I've already established why Goko's time cost is different from Iso's time cost, the least of which is the fact that Goko is slower.)
Okay, fair enough (and I had yet to read your other post until now). I haven't tried matchmaking on Goko; I've only played there with bots or IRL friends. You make a good point, although the gameplay is fast enough for me personally. It's not as fast as Iso, but I don't think we should be comparing Goko and Iso (again, just my opinion).
Let's see where this apple analogy goes. Let me know if you (plural) would add or change anything:
You're used to getting these big, juicy apples for free, but all of a sudden they are no longer available at your favorite Grand Market. Everyone agrees that sucks. Now, another Market (which some say is Ruined!) is selling slightly smaller apples (to reflect the time cost difference btw/ Iso and Goko) for 500 applcoins per 1/3lb, a (really stupid) currency invented by the Market and translates to about $1.99/lb. Most agree that this is a fair price for apples, even though people used to get them for free. Oh yeah, and you can get an individual slice of apple for free, which satisfies some but not most.
If you say you love apples, but can't afford them, I can't and won't hold that against you and say you don't like apples. If you say you love apples, but you already have a lifetime supply of them at home so never go to the Market (IRL analogy), I can't and won't hold that against you and say you don't like apples. If you say you love apples, and can afford them, but never buy and eat them, then and only then will I accuse you of not liking apples.
Edit: added Gokoins to the analogy :P
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I like apples, I can afford them, I don't buy them if they have worms.
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I like apples, I can afford them, I don't buy them if they have worms.
Haha. IMO they're no Grand Market Gala apples, but they're not worm-infested, either. Maybe they were at first but not anymore.
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Another argument I can make is that we've all been blessed, and spoiled, by Isotropic Dominion. The rights holders to the game could have prevented dougz from making his own implementation in the first place. Iso was great while it lasted, but it was a bonus, not a given. I say we're entitled to be able to play online Dominion, and that we're not necessarily entitled to have a free, Iso-esque implementation of it. I think we have to let go of that high sense of entitlement.
If isotropic had not existed, then I might not have ever tried Goko at all. The chance of me spending money on Goko is much higher because isotropic exists. Given how bad Goko's singleplayer and match-making are, in a non-isotropic world, would I even have realized how fun competitive Dominion can be?
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It's not as fast as Iso, but I don't think we should be comparing Goko and Iso (again, just my opinion).
If I knew how good online Dominion could be, how could I not expect to be disappointed when an inferior product is forced upon me?
If you say you love apples, but can't afford them, I can't and won't hold that against you and say you don't like apples. If you say you love apples, but you already have a lifetime supply of them at home so never go to the Market (IRL analogy), I can't and won't hold that against you and say you don't like apples. If you say you love apples, and can afford them, but never buy and eat them, then and only then will I accuse you of not liking apples.
That's not all. I have pears too (Asian pears at that, and I love Asian pears), and those are free. Not just pears, too - clementines, kiwifruits, and cantaloupe, which are among my favorite fruits. Why pay for crappy apples when I have those?
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That's not all. I have pears too (Asian pears at that, and I love Asian pears), and those are free. Not just pears, too - clementines, kiwifruits, and cantaloupe, which are among my favorite fruits. Why pay for crappy apples when I have those?
I eat other fruit too, but there's something intrinsically awesome about the apple, and I crave apples enough that I don't mind that I've tasted better apples before.
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That's not all. I have pears too (Asian pears at that, and I love Asian pears), and those are free. Not just pears, too - clementines, kiwifruits, and cantaloupe, which are among my favorite fruits. Why pay for crappy apples when I have those?
I eat other fruit too, but there's something intrinsically awesome about the apple, and I crave apples enough that I don't mind that I've tasted better apples before.
I have no fruit analogy that works for me.
Isotopic works on tablets. Goko doesn't. Goko literally has given me no choice but to NOT switch and NOT give them my money.
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It's the childish anonymous insults I see being flung at RGG and Donald X. that really annoy me, but it says more about the whiny little "I'm entitled to free stuff" hippies than it says about what may yet turn out to be a poor business decision on RGG's part.
I guess I don't know that much about hippies, but I haven't ever heard that they thought they were entitled to free stuff.
I also find those insults tiring. It's hard to imagine a better creator/fanbase relationship than Donald has with the fans of Dominion. As he's said, he's there for us.
Isotopic works on tablets. Goko doesn't. Goko literally has given me no choice but to NOT switch and NOT give them my money.
Goko Dominion works great on my 4th-gen iPad. It's smooth as silk.
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I don't think Donald or RGG are money-hungry beasts or anything like that. I DO think they made a bad buiseness decision. Very bad. Even if it reports them money (I have no idea on how much money they are making with the Goko license, if any).
BTW, I don't think playing base game is a slice of the game. I like playing online, but I like IRL much better. I would play base IRL but I would not play only base online, is not competitive enough and also not fun socially as an IRL can be, so so much for the "free Goko" part.
And also, I agree that boycotting probably does not work on this case, but I personally do not like myself when I support people that do wrong. The more wrong they do, the less good I feel about it. I do eventually support people that does wrong to the world, because I buy their food in their supermarkets, but I have to buy food, so in that particular case their coercion power overcomes my ideological stands. This case is totally different, Dominion is great, but I can go play 7 Wonders for free in BSW as I used too before going into dominion.isotropic.
I do not think I'm entitled to free things, I just think pretty high about RGG and Donald and I'm sad they don't recognize this as a bad idea and maybe try to amend things (I'm not sure whether it was obviously a bad idea when they signed with Goko, but I think it should be clear now). I'm sad about this in a similar way I'm sad at Star Wars being sold to Disney. But I can probably find a way to watch Disney's Star Wars movie without supporting their evil ways (wink, wink).
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It's the childish anonymous insults I see being flung at RGG and Donald X. that really annoy me, but it says more about the whiny little "I'm entitled to free stuff" hippies than it says about what may yet turn out to be a poor business decision on RGG's part.
I guess I don't know that much about hippies, but I haven't ever heard that they thought they were entitled to free stuff.
I also find those insults tiring. It's hard to imagine a better creator/fanbase relationship than Donald has with the fans of Dominion. As he's said, he's there for us.
Isotopic works on tablets. Goko doesn't. Goko literally has given me no choice but to NOT switch and NOT give them my money.
Goko Dominion works great on my 4th-gen iPad. It's smooth as silk.
I guess my brand new iPad Mini is out of date and broken, because I can't see the whole play area, the animations are jumpy and lag, and I get a giant pop up warning that says Goko isn't going to work very well.
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I don't think Donald or RGG are money-hungry beasts or anything like that. I DO think they made a bad buiseness decision. Very bad. Even if it reports them money (I have no idea on how much money they are making with the Goko license, if any).
I do not have a contract of any kind with Goko. It is popular to believe I must, but I don't.
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I don't think Donald or RGG are money-hungry beasts or anything like that. I DO think they made a bad buiseness decision. Very bad. Even if it reports them money (I have no idea on how much money they are making with the Goko license, if any).
I do not have a contract of any kind with Goko. It is popular to believe I must, but I don't.
Eventually, you will be really sick of saying that. You must have a lot of patience, because I would be plenty sick of saying it by now.
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The only reason why people believe that is because Goko is such a raw deal.
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I don't think Donald or RGG are money-hungry beasts or anything like that. I DO think they made a bad buiseness decision. Very bad. Even if it reports them money (I have no idea on how much money they are making with the Goko license, if any).
I do not have a contract of any kind with Goko. It is popular to believe I must, but I don't.
I guess I just used to believe that because there was some mention of you testing their implementation, and I assumed it was at least partly your job because of some contract. Still, the point was clearly not on putting the finger on anyone in particular, just saying "whoever decided this should be at the very least regretting it". And also, you being the creator of the game, I guess I also assumed you had some sort of consultational power over what things other than selling boxes in diverse languages were done with the game. I know for a fact some book authors do have that with their editorial.
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The only reason why people believe that is because Goko is such a raw deal.
Evidence in other arenas suggests otherwise. People routinely blame Mark Rosewater for things he didn't do, because he is "the face of Magic."
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The only reason why people believe that is because Goko is such a raw deal.
Evidence in other arenas suggests otherwise. People routinely blame Mark Rosewater for things he didn't do, because he is "the face of Magic."
Does Goko inform you of how well they're doing? Does the money paid for each expansion on Goko somehow trickle down to you?
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The only reason why people believe that is because Goko is such a raw deal.
Evidence in other arenas suggests otherwise. People routinely blame Mark Rosewater for things he didn't do, because he is "the face of Magic."
Success comes at quite a steep price, eh? I like to think I take kind of a moderate stance on all this. I won't be spending money at Goko, might play there very occasionally with whatever I can do for free, and I still intend to buy Guilds for tabletop play. I think Dominion is a superior product, and being able to play it on Isotropic was nice while it lasted. Thank you, Donald X. Thank you Jay Tummelson. Now it's on to the next big online thing for me: INNOVATION. ;D
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Does Goko inform you of how well they're doing? Does the money paid for each expansion on Goko somehow trickle down to you?
My contract with RGG gives me a % of the take for any digital implementation.
Goko sometimes sends Jay a status report, and sometimes I see it. They tell me when stuff has been updated for me to test.
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Evidence in other arenas suggests otherwise. People routinely blame Mark Rosewater for things he didn't do, because he is "the face of Magic."
Let me clarify what I meant: there would not be as many people blaming you for being greedy, etc. if this transition to Goko weren't so fraught with dissatisfaction on the side of the users. I don't disagree with you that the easiest person to associate with Dominion is the guy who made it. (I'm also not blaming anyone in this post.)
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Success comes at quite a steep price, eh?
No, I would say success has been pretty positive so far. I can always not frequent Dominion forums if I don't want to hear people complain about Goko.
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Success comes at quite a steep price, eh?
No, I would say success has been pretty positive so far. I can always not frequent Dominion forums if I don't want to hear people complain about Goko.
That's good. In the end, I suppose the best you can hope for is to look back and say it was worth it. :) BTW, while I have your attention, is there a projected release date for Guilds yet?
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BTW, while I have your attention, is there a projected release date for Guilds yet?
I don't know, but I'm sure as soon as there's any non-secret information it will be on BGG and I will probably find out about it there myself.
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How is not understanding you an insult? You can play on Goko without spending any money, and it doesn't take more time than playing on iso. So I don't understand you either, sorry if that insults you.
There are studies that if you say "Don't take that as X, but...", more people will take it as X as if you would just have said what you wanted...
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If isotropic had not existed, then I might not have ever tried Goko at all.
This is so true (about me)! I like a lot of board games and card games, but haven't tried playing them on BSW or whatever other servers there are where I can play them. It's just not something that seems that interesting to me, even though I don't know; maybe there is something out there I would love to do. In spite of that I actually tried out Goko a little. That I certainly hadn't done if it wasn't for Isotropic. (Probably I wouldn't know it existed.)
Earlier I've had spells of playing a lot of Scrabble on the net, and after that a lot of Mahjong. That was something I did everyday, like Dominion on Isotropic now, but that I later totally ended without really missing. I suppose it will be the same this time. And maybe some later time I will start playing some other game somewhere. As all previous times probably something that is free so I don't have to decided that This Is Something I Want To Do, but something that I just start doing and then realize is really addictive.
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If i had under my control a game of Dominion, and someone gave me the choice of an online version for a wad of cash, or a free version people could play.
Honestly, who wouldn't sell out in a heartbeat!
I dont particularily like the Goko for many things, but i fail to see a bad decision made by RGG
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If i had under my control a game of Dominion, and someone gave me the choice of an online version for a wad of cash, or a free version people could play.
Honestly, who wouldn't sell out in a heartbeat!
I dont particularily like the Goko for many things, but i fail to see a bad decision made by RGG
Time will tell. Goko did itself no favors with that absolutely disastrous roll out last August, but who really knows what will happen going forward, right?
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If i had under my control a game of Dominion, and someone gave me the choice of an online version for a wad of cash, or a free version people could play.
Honestly, who wouldn't sell out in a heartbeat!
I dont particularily like the Goko for many things, but i fail to see a bad decision made by RGG
Time will tell. Goko did itself no favors with that absolutely disastrous roll out last August, but who really knows what will happen going forward, right?
Unless you know that RGG had other decent offers for online Dominion, I fail to see how time will tell? Goko did itself no favours, but still think it was not a bad decision for RGG
It will be a limited contract with Goko, when that runs out RGG have had their money and can go elsewhere.
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It will be a limited contract with Goko, when that runs out RGG have had their money and can go elsewhere.
Is that right? I haven't read that anywhere so far.
In any case, I think dominion.isotropic contributes to the success of Dominion overall, which also reports money to RGG by increasing physical cards sets and also improving Dominion's name which of course resounds positively on RGG's name and therefore increases the number of games they are offered by good designer, the number of future games, the a-priori appeal of their games by us players, etc.
I'm much more likely to investigate the game if I like many other games of that publisher, in the same sense as I would do from a game author. At some point my "trust" on the publisher decisions is higher because of past experiences, so I give them some sort of credit that they chose to publish a good product when deciding a buy.
I have read somewhere (sorry I can't provide a reference now, ignore this part if that pisses you off) that RGG did not want Iso itself to be the official version because its look was really far from the original game (and Goko's implementation is or intends to be much closer), so it certainly looks like the decision is not made solely on "amount of cash we will get".
Would you sell out your life's work to someone that is going to do things you dislike with it? I know I wouldn't, provided that I have no desperate economical situation that takes priority, which I don't think its the case here. As bad as it may sound to many liberal economists, money is not the only variable in the world and not everything can be reduced to money.
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Donalds contract with RGG is time limited I am sure, and thus the IP of Dominion is limited. (Possibly read this in Ask Donald thread)
"Would you sell out your life's work to someone that is going to do things you dislike with it? "
You seem to be one of the people suffer the misconception that Donald sold Dominion to Goko, he didnt, he sold rights to RGG, whose decision it was to use GOKO, not Donald's at all. Who knows what decision Donald will make when the rights contract comes up.
And if I am running a Company whose Job it is to make money, and someone comes along for one of my intellectual licences and offers me a big wedge of cash. Too Right I would sell.
"I have read somewhere (sorry I can't provide a reference now, ignore this part if that pisses you off) that RGG did not want Iso itself to be the official version because its look was really far from the original game (and Goko's implementation is or intends to be much closer), so it certainly looks like the decision is not made solely on "amount of cash we will get"."
Dougz, creater of Isotropic was offered money to make the official version but turned it down.
People who tell me that the company will lose sales because Iso is free and Goko is rubbish need to actually back that up with actual figures from somewhere rather than a gut feeling of people (which includes me) that have never been privy to such a situation before. Otherwise its a 'gut feeling' and my 'gut feeling' says different.
I wonder what the sales figures were of Dominion, before and after Isotropic got popular....
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To try and clarify, I am trying to defend Donald/RGG here, not Goko, we all know Goko is a bit shite.
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"Would you sell out your life's work to someone that is going to do things you dislike with it? "
You seem to be one of the people suffer the misconception that Donald sold Dominion to Goko, he didnt, he sold rights to RGG, whose decision it was to use GOKO, not Donald's at all. Who knows what decision Donald will make when the rights contract comes up.
And if I am running a Company whose Job it is to make money, and someone comes along for one of my intellectual licences and offers me a big wedge of cash. Too Right I would sell.
I don't, this was clarified earlier on this thread so I sure have it in mind. I was talking about RGG. I don't think RGG is only about making money. So, I probably won't like your companies should you have one some day.
People who tell me that the company will lose sales because Iso is free and Goko is rubbish need to actually back that up with actual figures from somewhere rather than a gut feeling of people (which includes me) that have never been privy to such a situation before. Otherwise its a 'gut feeling' and my 'gut feeling' says different.
I wonder what the sales figures were of Dominion, before and after Isotropic got popular....
I also wonder about the figures. It was claimed Goko did make them money without providing any figures, and I was answering that, so I thought it was ok to answer without data also. At least is a balanced opposition.
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"Would you sell out your life's work to someone that is going to do things you dislike with it? "
You seem to be one of the people suffer the misconception that Donald sold Dominion to Goko, he didnt, he sold rights to RGG, whose decision it was to use GOKO, not Donald's at all. Who knows what decision Donald will make when the rights contract comes up.
And if I am running a Company whose Job it is to make money, and someone comes along for one of my intellectual licences and offers me a big wedge of cash. Too Right I would sell.
I don't, this was clarified earlier on this thread so I sure have it in mind. I was talking about RGG. I don't think RGG is only about making money. So, I probably won't like your companies should you have one some day.
Don't worry, I seriously doubt i'll ever run a company any day.
Also, if you don't partake of visiting companies whose sole purpose is making money......you must suffer a massive guilt trip every single time you go to the shops!
Also, again in defence of RGG, getting sucked in to GOKO's sales pitch, which was probably very slick and attention grabbing, isnt akin to the 'selling out' you are accusing them off
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I mean, time will tell if Goko is successful or not. No skin off my nose. Nobody's forcing me to spend money there, and chances are probably pretty good that I won't.
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Also, if you don't partake of visiting companies whose sole purpose is making money......you must suffer a massive guilt trip every single time you go to the shops!
Well, given that I have the need to go into some shops for food, clothing and other necessities, I don't have any guilt in doing so. I do try to avoid some companies when I have the alternatives.
Also, again in defence of RGG, getting sucked in to GOKO's sales pitch, which was probably very slick and attention grabbing, isnt akin to the 'selling out' you are accusing them off
I don't think they are "sell outs", because there is a whole story I don't know about (it is likely they did not know what Goko was going to be at the point when they sold the rights). I was just trying to show that "a wad of cash" is not the only thing to consider and since many people tend to think their life's work was not only a money-making machinery, it seemed like a good example. From Jay's interview in this forum, it seems that he does not see RGG as just a money-making machinery, so I would guess that decision making in RGG does consider other things as well.
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Afaik a huge concern for jay was that the implementation would be cross-platform and that there were no pay-to-win possibilities in multiplayer. I'm pretty sure goko didn't tell him they would take ages to develop an implementation that is ok, and even longer to manure one that its actually good.
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Note: I am just freely expressing my personal opinions here. If you identify with the group I'm ranting on, please don't take it personally. It could be I'm just reading you wrong. I'd love to hear your points of view for us to discuss as a community.
I'm switching to Goko because I love playing Dominion. Of course I am annoyed by some aspects of Goko, such as the chat box and the avatars. Of course I think Isotropic Dominion is better. But the game of Dominion---the love of the game---is what will make me happily switch to Goko. I like Goko because there you can play Dominion, the game I get a lot of enjoyment out of. I do not understand why anyone would quit playing Dominion just because of Goko. Unless you're playing Dominion IRL, you're giving up playing the game I thought you enjoyed. I don't understand how people seem to love the website Isotropic more than the game Dominion. It should be about the game, not the website it's on.
Have you ever tried playing Dominion on BSW? Do that, and tell me it still doesn't matter how it's implemented. And that even has some cards from each expansion for free.
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Also, if you don't partake of visiting companies whose sole purpose is making money......you must suffer a massive guilt trip every single time you go to the shops!
Well, given that I have the need to go into some shops for food, clothing and other necessities, I don't have any guilt in doing so. I do try to avoid some companies when I have the alternatives.
Also, again in defence of RGG, getting sucked in to GOKO's sales pitch, which was probably very slick and attention grabbing, isnt akin to the 'selling out' you are accusing them off
I don't think they are "sell outs", because there is a whole story I don't know about (it is likely they did not know what Goko was going to be at the point when they sold the rights). I was just trying to show that "a wad of cash" is not the only thing to consider and since many people tend to think their life's work was not only a money-making machinery, it seemed like a good example. From Jay's interview in this forum, it seems that he does not see RGG as just a money-making machinery, so I would guess that decision making in RGG does consider other things as well.
Hang on....
RGG had a free version and a company to run.
Someone came along and said 'We can pay you money and produce a flashy online version that will generate more money'. You can then plough that money back into your company and do more of the things you love.
Now, you seem to be saying you wouldn't have taken that money based on some sort of ethical principles and imagined sales figures on your part.
Ethical principles you say Jay seems to have, which is excellent.
ERGO, if there was nothing unethical about it, then it was a monetary decision. Jay figured he could get more money from Goko than he could from Isotropic fan sales, and as he is the only one here that runs a sucessful game company, I reckon he knows what he is doing, and when the contract comes up for renewal, he will revisit and decide again.
Now, when I say I would have also taken Gokos offer if I was in his place, im apparently unethical and my imaginary company ill never own is to be avoided like some sort of Strip Mining Company destroying Native Villages!
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Afaik a huge concern for jay was that the implementation would be cross-platform and that there were no pay-to-win possibilities in multiplayer. I'm pretty sure goko didn't tell him they would take ages to develop an implementation that is ok, and even longer to manure one that its actually good.
Freudian slip or Autocorrect?
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Also, if you don't partake of visiting companies whose sole purpose is making money......you must suffer a massive guilt trip every single time you go to the shops!
Well, given that I have the need to go into some shops for food, clothing and other necessities, I don't have any guilt in doing so. I do try to avoid some companies when I have the alternatives.
Also, again in defence of RGG, getting sucked in to GOKO's sales pitch, which was probably very slick and attention grabbing, isnt akin to the 'selling out' you are accusing them off
I don't think they are "sell outs", because there is a whole story I don't know about (it is likely they did not know what Goko was going to be at the point when they sold the rights). I was just trying to show that "a wad of cash" is not the only thing to consider and since many people tend to think their life's work was not only a money-making machinery, it seemed like a good example. From Jay's interview in this forum, it seems that he does not see RGG as just a money-making machinery, so I would guess that decision making in RGG does consider other things as well.
Hang on....
RGG had a free version and a company to run.
Someone came along and said 'We can pay you money and produce a flashy online version that will generate more money'. You can then plough that money back into your company and do more of the things you love.
Now, you seem to be saying you wouldn't have taken that money based on some sort of ethical principles and imagined sales figures on your part.
Ethical principles you say Jay seems to have, which is excellent.
ERGO, if there was nothing unethical about it, then it was a monetary decision. Jay figured he could get more money from Goko than he could from Isotropic fan sales, and as he is the only one here that runs a sucessful game company, I reckon he knows what he is doing, and when the contract comes up for renewal, he will revisit and decide again.
Now, when I say I would have also taken Gokos offer if I was in his place, im apparently unethical and my imaginary company ill never own is to be avoided like some sort of Strip Mining Company destroying Native Villages!
It's all speculation. I can't say what I'd have done in Jay's place because I don't know. One thing I do know is that not everyone Goko tried to sell to took the bait. Chris C. of Asmadi games, for one.
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Its precisely all speculation, thats exactly my point!
Nobody here knows what the deal was, so people saying that it will cost RGG money in the long have no idea what they are talking about
Money wise, the expert here is RGG.
No ones questioning RGGs ethics hopefully, so we are good on that front.
So the people saying it was a bad decision, clearly have not a leg to stand on. Just a useless 'gut feeling'
im just getting a little bit tired of people going round slating Donald or RGG for what seems to be a perfectly sound decision on thier parts!
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Afaik a huge concern for jay was that the implementation would be cross-platform and that there were no pay-to-win possibilities in multiplayer. I'm pretty sure goko didn't tell him they would take ages to develop an implementation that is ok, and even longer to manure one that its actually good.
Freudian slip or Autocorrect?
Autocorrect, was supposed to be make.
I'd be kinda surprised if Jay was happy with how the Goko thing turned out.
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No ones questioning RGGs ethics hopefully, so we are good on that front.
The only one mentioning ethics here was you, I certainly did not say anthing about the ethics of hypothetical or actual decisions. I don't think is always unethical to put money above other things, and I'm sure it is not unethical for Jay to take Goko's offer. I'm just saying I don't think any amount of money is worth compromising the company and/or the game name with such a bad product. Of course, they may not have anticipated the product was going to be bad, but that does not change the outcome (notice that I am not trying to judge Jay or RGG in general, nor his habilities at decision making, just saying that this decision was bad because the outcome is bad, may have been unlucky or a mistake or a misjudgemente or any number of other things).
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No ones questioning RGGs ethics hopefully, so we are good on that front.
The only one mentioning ethics here was you, I certainly did not say anthing about the ethics of hypothetical or actual decisions. I don't think is always unethical to put money above other things, and I'm sure it is not unethical for Jay to take Goko's offer. I'm just saying I don't think any amount of money is worth compromising the company and/or the game name with such a bad product. Of course, they may not have anticipated the product was going to be bad, but that does not change the outcome (notice that I am not trying to judge Jay or RGG in general, nor his habilities at decision making, just saying that this decision was bad because the outcome is bad, may have been unlucky or a mistake or a misjudgemente or any number of other things).
Again, how do you know the outcome is bad?
Also
"Would you sell out your life's work to someone that is going to do things you dislike with it? "
You seem to be one of the people suffer the misconception that Donald sold Dominion to Goko, he didnt, he sold rights to RGG, whose decision it was to use GOKO, not Donald's at all. Who knows what decision Donald will make when the rights contract comes up.
And if I am running a Company whose Job it is to make money, and someone comes along for one of my intellectual licences and offers me a big wedge of cash. Too Right I would sell.
I don't, this was clarified earlier on this thread so I sure have it in mind. I was talking about RGG. I don't think RGG is only about making money. So, I probably won't like your companies should you have one some day.
If thats not questioning my ethics, you and I have a very different definition of the words ethics!
I said I would make the same decision as RGG and got told " I probably won't like your companies should you have one some day."
Im failing to see the difference....especially as when i mentioned it as ethics and you carried on the discussion,.
Anyways, I think I get the point, we both agree RGG is all fine and dandy, you think they have made a bad decisions. I am saying I dont think we know anything about the decision making process so I get fed up with people saying they have a bad decision.
no one is going to budge from that positions for some time, so lets move on?
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Again, how do you know the outcome is bad?
Well its bad from my point of view so its a bad decision from my point of view as well.
I said I would make the same decision as RGG and got told " I probably won't like your companies should you have one some day."
My problem with companies is basing decisions only on money, there are plenty of other things that could have happened here. Also, making one decision based solely on money is not the same as basing the entire companies politics on that, which was what I was discussing at the time of saying that.
In any case, there is big difference between not liking or not agreeing with something and considering it unethical (I guess unethical implies disliking and disagreeing, but not the other way around).
no one is going to budge from that positions for some time, so lets move on?
Yes, totally.
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The only reason why people believe that is because Goko is such a raw deal.
Evidence in other arenas suggests otherwise. People routinely blame Mark Rosewater for things he didn't do, because he is "the face of Magic."
Well, he was the lead designer of the set that spawned Dredge and Urza's Something, and you have to blame somebody for both :P