Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: RTT on February 25, 2013, 06:38:49 am
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If my swindler turns up a Card like Spoils/Madman/Price ... with the costs of 0*
It will trash it but does it replace the card with a curse / Copper ?
thx for the help.
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Yes.
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ok so the swindler attack is extremly powerful on those cards . :-\
not sure if i like that ...
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Swindler is powerful versus them, but then other trashing cards like Saboteur and Knights can't touch them because they're below the minimum price threshold. Also, your opponent can't gain copies of your 0* card with Jester.
By the way, you can also swindle your opponent's Followers into Ruins, if there's a Looter. And of course, lay down 10 Highways and a Bridge, and you can even swindle a Colony into a Curse.
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I think the general rule is that if there are at least two cards at the same pay point such that one of them is really desirable and the other is not, then Swindler is often a good choice. Of course there's always Copper/Curse particularly if there's no easy way to get rid of the Curses, but the presence of 0* cards definitely sweetens the pot.
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I agree with RTT, I would prefer if prizes costed 6* or 7*. I get the idea behind prizes being 0$, it makes it easier to understand the rules, because you say, hey, surely Donald isn't going to let me buy Trusty Steed for 0$, let me have a look see at this italicized text.
But it produces counterintuitive and less interesting results when other cards try to interact with that cost. The choice of whether to Salvage your Followers isn't difficult at all. Your opponent's choice of whether he should try to use Saboteur on your Followers or invest in Horse Traders instead is not an interesting choice. The Swindler interaction that is the topic of this thread is nice in that it gives you a response to the ugly, asymmetric aspect of prizes, but most other interactions make me wish it wasn't 0*. It'd be nice if I could try to make a comeback against someone who took the two strongest prizes by using Apprentice on a Bag of Gold or something, but I can't.
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The only reason non-buyable cards like Spoils, Madman and Prizes have a cost is so that cards like Swindler know what to do with them.
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I agree with RTT, I would prefer if prizes costed 6* or 7*. I get the idea behind prizes being 0$, it makes it easier to understand the rules, because you say, hey, surely Donald isn't going to let me buy Trusty Steed for 0$, let me have a look see at this italicized text.
But it produces counterintuitive and less interesting results when other cards try to interact with that cost. The choice of whether to Salvage your Followers isn't difficult at all. Your opponent's choice of whether he should try to use Saboteur on your Followers or invest in Horse Traders instead is not an interesting choice. The Swindler interaction that is the topic of this thread is nice in that it gives you a response to the ugly, asymmetric aspect of prizes, but most other interactions make me wish it wasn't 0*. It'd be nice if I could try to make a comeback against someone who took the two strongest prizes by using Apprentice on a Bag of Gold or something, but I can't.
No, but if you want to Apprentice your to a comeback, Bag of Gold is still pretty nice.
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In the secret histories, Donald X mentions why he made them cost what they do:
There are various arguments for why they should have what cost, but I think a crucial one in favor of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/ae/Coin0star.png/16px-Coin0star.png) is, that it makes it extra clear that you cannot actually buy them. I also like that you don't think, "oh man the correct play is to Remodel my prize."
So for DXV, it was a feature and not a bug that they interact that way with your trash-for-benefit.
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In the secret histories, Donald X mentions why he made them cost what they do:
There are various arguments for why they should have what cost, but I think a crucial one in favor of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/ae/Coin0star.png/16px-Coin0star.png) is, that it makes it extra clear that you cannot actually buy them. I also like that you don't think, "oh man the correct play is to Remodel my prize."
So for DXV, it was a feature and not a bug that they interact that way with your trash-for-benefit.
Edge case time--find a game log where remodeling Trusty Steed into Estate won the game.
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In the secret histories, Donald X mentions why he made them cost what they do:
There are various arguments for why they should have what cost, but I think a crucial one in favor of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/ae/Coin0star.png/16px-Coin0star.png) is, that it makes it extra clear that you cannot actually buy them. I also like that you don't think, "oh man the correct play is to Remodel my prize."
So for DXV, it was a feature and not a bug that they interact that way with your trash-for-benefit.
Edge case time--find a game log where remodeling Trusty Steed into Estate won the game.
Easy. You are behind, there is no +buy, and the Estate will put you over the Silk Road threshold.
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In the secret histories, Donald X mentions why he made them cost what they do:
There are various arguments for why they should have what cost, but I think a crucial one in favor of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/ae/Coin0star.png/16px-Coin0star.png) is, that it makes it extra clear that you cannot actually buy them. I also like that you don't think, "oh man the correct play is to Remodel my prize."
So for DXV, it was a feature and not a bug that they interact that way with your trash-for-benefit.
Edge case time--find a game log where remodeling Trusty Steed into Estate won the game.
Easy. You are behind, there is no +buy, and the Estate will put you over the Silk Road threshold.
Did you find the log yet?
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Log rolls down stairs, alone or in pairs
Rolls over your neighbor's dog
Log's great for a snack and fits on your back.
But it sucks the fun out of pseudo-intellectual edge casing :-[
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More likely to find a case where taking the last Estate lets you three-pile while slightly ahead. What complicates things is that Remodel can turn literally any card into an Estate, and Trusty Steed could be played for +2C/+2A instead. But maybe they're the last two cards in your deck, or maybe you're using Farmland or Governor to do it.
None of the other edges I'm casing make any sense, though.
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Edge cases are specifically edge cases meaning that they are very unlikely to happen.
The act of finding an Edge Case isnt an Edge case! And actually the more logs you can find actually makes it less of an edge case!