Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Game Reports => Topic started by: Robz888 on February 08, 2013, 06:37:24 pm
-
18:25 Bananaman: gg
18:25 Robz888: wow
18:26 Bananaman: Saboteur's are lots of fun sometimes
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201302/08/game-20130208-152529-2c14b2b2.html
cards in supply: Bishop, Counting House, Haven, Ironworks, Militia, Mining Village, Moneylender, Saboteur, Stash, and Witch
It shouldn't have worked.
I say to myself, this is pretty much a Witch Big Money set up. So I get Witch, sprinkle in Silvers and Gold, and plan to go with that. I'm first player, so everything should be fine. He opens Bishop/Silver to my Silver/Silver, which is okay, I think not as good, but fine.
With his first $5 hand, he passes on Witch for Saboteur. "That can't be right," I say. "There's no way the worst $5 card could possibly hold its own against the best $5 card on a board with very little ability to trash curses (Bishop helps your opponent trashes Curses better than it helps you!)."
He hits my Witch, fine, I buy another one. I head for Provinces. When he hits them, I turn them back into Gold, in order to buy back Provinces later. When we get toward the end, I know I'll take Duchy instead.
He does eventually get a Witch... and 2 more Saboteurs and a bunch of Havens and Mining Villages.
I am buying Silvers very liberally! And taking Gold so my economy doesn't die. And eventually Duchies, because he's destroyed my entire deck. And eventually those are turned into Estates, but I still have a huge lead! But then, when everything in my deck is worthless except my Duchies, he kills those 3 at a time, too. In the end, he doesn't buy like any Green, but he has 17 stupid Bishop points! And he kills me.
So, I know there were a bunch of little things I could have done better to hold my own. Ironworks should have helped. An earlier Militia might have really disrupted him. I could have used Havens to hide my valuables. I just didn't think any of that was necessary, because it's Saboteur vs. Witch.
-
Wow indeed.
Maybe there is a new combo out there: bishop/Sab (with village support). Maybe Sab/monument too?
Worth building some simulations to see how it does.
Ed
-
Yikes! :o
Well, TR-Sab and KC-Sab can be brutal. He got his deck thin enough where he was playing Sab twice, three times a turn consistently, so same effect. Without IW, you only have one buy/gain a turn so on net he was reducing the quality of your deck by quite a lot, to the point where you couldn't end the game. He just had to last long enough to get to that point. The fact that he didn't have to buy Provinces because of Bishop points helped lengthen the game. If it was a Province race, you had him. Had he not hit your Witch first you still probably would have clogged him up enough where he couldn't reach the tipping point of effectiveness fast enough, too. But one he got there....
-
He did get kinda lucky…he got your Witch before you could use it that much, and he got his deck pretty thin with only Bishop for support.
-
He did get kinda lucky…you didnt get a Witch until turn 7, he got your Witch before you could use it that much, and he got his deck pretty thin with only Bishop for support.
Robz got a Witch on turn 4.
In any case, I don't think that you are characterizing this matchup correctly. Witch-BM beats Sab-BM, yeah. But, you know, he kind of builds an engine, plus it's completely on you to empty out either Provinces or 3 piles. So I think that you didn't really adapt to your opponent's strategy. There are cheap piles, a Curse giver, Ironworks, plus some decent deck thinning and a spammable village. I think you easily could have tried building a sort of engine that tries to inundate your opponent with Curses while running down the piles and holding on to some Provinces. The Bishop could also possibly be valuable in preserving your points.
-
Should've bought Scout.
-
He did get kinda lucky…you didnt get a Witch until turn 7, he got your Witch before you could use it that much, and he got his deck pretty thin with only Bishop for support.
Robz got a Witch on turn 4.
heh. Lemme edit that...
-
What makes this kingdom quite interesting is the strange combination of witch/bishop/militia/saboteur that lets the engine builder create a saboteur/bishop deck but prevents the victim from taking a straight golden deck to counter it. I always think it's good when cards that are not bought are still able to influence the game.
-
It seems counter productive to me to buy a bishop just before buying witch. If your opponent trashes a curse when you bishop, you REALLY aren't gaining any significant benefit out of it. I think you helped his strategy to work by doing this. And ironworks could have helped you as well. Ironworks could produce mining villages, that if hit with sabs could be turned into havens. The havens can be used to protect your provinces potentially.
-
It seems counter productive to me to buy a bishop just before buying witch. If your opponent trashes a curse when you bishop, you REALLY aren't gaining any significant benefit out of it. I think you helped his strategy to work by doing this. And ironworks could have helped you as well. Ironworks could produce mining villages, that if hit with sabs could be turned into havens. The havens can be used to protect your provinces potentially.
I agree with you about the Ironworks, but I didn't buy Bishop. So I didn't help him trashes his Curses. He helped me trash some Curses.
-
I'll just put this here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDsSUrhogf4
EDIT: This is on-topic because Beyond Awesome nailed me with a Saboteur strategy I just didn't notice at first glance. I didn't understand why he opened Procession until my deck was in tatters.
-
I've been hit by this plenty of times. Just don't underestimate opponents, and NEVER, under any circumstances, underestimate an attack, especially if it depends on some degree of luck.
-
I've been hit by this plenty of times. Just don't underestimate opponents, and NEVER, under any circumstances, underestimate an attack, especially if it depends on some degree of luck.
Yeah I can second this. I've been brutalised by thieves and Saboteurs (after saying, "oh look a saboteur, I can ignore that") enough to realise that any attack can be powerful on the right board, especially if you can play it several times a turn.
-
It seems counter productive to me to buy a bishop just before buying witch. If your opponent trashes a curse when you bishop, you REALLY aren't gaining any significant benefit out of it. I think you helped his strategy to work by doing this. And ironworks could have helped you as well. Ironworks could produce mining villages, that if hit with sabs could be turned into havens. The havens can be used to protect your provinces potentially.
I agree with you about the Ironworks, but I didn't buy Bishop. So I didn't help him trashes his Curses. He helped me trash some Curses.
— Robz888's turn 3 —
Robz888 plays 4 Coppers.
Robz888 buys a Bishop.
(Robz888 draws: an Estate, 2 Silvers, and 2 Coppers.)
J'accuse!
-
Oh, guess I forgot about that. He Saboteured it.
-
cards in supply: Bishop, Counting House, Haven, Ironworks, Militia, Mining Village, Moneylender, Saboteur, Stash, and Witch
It shouldn't have worked.
I say to myself, this is pretty much a Witch Big Money set up.
I'm not sure why you think is this a Witch BM set up. There is a good gainer, good village, unlimited source of VPs, and multiple attacks. There has to be something interesting to build here. Now the question is if involves Sab. I'm not sure about that, but it just can't be a Witch BM game. Ironworks should probably help defend the Sab well enough, though if you find yourself without any villages left, you might have to resort to slogging, accepting Coppers from the Sab and using Counting House to buy Provinces...
-
Oh, guess I forgot about that. He Saboteured it.
After you helped him trash a curse, an estate and a copper with it.