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Dominion => Dominion Online at Shuffle iT => Dominion General Discussion => Dominion Isotropic => Topic started by: mypetrock on June 17, 2011, 11:28:37 am

Title: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: mypetrock on June 17, 2011, 11:28:37 am
With the advent of the auto-matching algorithms on isotropic, I've noticed a notable decline in the amount of intra-player civility. At the start of the game, fewer people are making the effort to wish their opponent "Good luck" (or even "gl") at the start of the game or to wait to exchange a "Good game" (or even "gg") at the end of the game before leaving to the lobby. I get that wherever the internet is, trolls follow. What really brought it to a head for me was playing someone who skipped the pleasantries, offered expletive-filled comments when I got a 5/2 start, continued by berating me for slow play (was not slow), and then had some colorful sign off comments at the end of the game. And then he left the game and got to inflict himself on someone else.

Is this just a case of me being oversensitive? Or is this something that other people have noticed?

mypetrock
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 17, 2011, 11:31:31 am
I don't think it's really changed. There are just some people like this.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Taco Lobster on June 17, 2011, 11:38:03 am
The worst thing I saw was a guy using a picture of a naked chick as his icon.  I don't mean to be a prude, but I tend to catch a game or two at work when things are slow, and don't really need to have that up on the screen.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rrenaud on June 17, 2011, 11:43:33 am
tl:dr; manners are bullshit, but don't actively be a dick.

in my mind the gl/always gg stuff is basically vacuous.  If you hit me 5x in a row with a mountebank, honestly, I am not going to be happy.  And if you say gg 100% of the time, it's actually meaningless.  That gg contains almost no information.  But if you reserve it for only say, the 40% to 80% of the games that were actually good, then it now means something.

On the other hand, being a dick/crybaby/etc because things didn't go your way, even if it was just bad luck is annoying.

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on June 17, 2011, 12:49:46 pm
I think someone called me a childish name one time out of a few thousand games.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Axe Knight on June 17, 2011, 01:24:56 pm
Any time you have a competitive environment, there's going to be trash talkers and a-holes.  Get used to it.  Luckily, they seem to be few and far between on isotropic.  I can only remember one time that I was really ticked off by what someone said. 

My favorite interactions between myself and other isotropic players are always after a good game with a lot of good play where we talk about what we did, what we could have done differently, and sometimes, play again.  I don't ever expect it, but it's quite nice. 
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on June 17, 2011, 01:34:03 pm
I'm a little surprised to see that there is an expectation for GL and GG. I'll say them at times, but I don't automatically just type them in, and I generally don't rely on acronyms because GL and GG are just reflexes and look as sincere as someone saying, "bless you" when you sneeze.

But, jackassery simply needs to go away. I'll address such comments with either silence or something condescending, depending on my mood. In general, silence does a better job of pissing them off.

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Taco Lobster on June 17, 2011, 01:35:46 pm
I play a lot on my ipad, so I use the acronyms because typing on it is a PIA.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Blaeu on June 17, 2011, 01:52:49 pm
IMO, some have expectations of "gl" or "gg" due to other games they have played.  Consider Starcraft or Starcraft 2, when you are playing a match and realize you have no chance to win and with to quit, it is "proper" in the community to "gg" before you leave.  This is further driven into peoples heads because all SC pros do it (bar Idra).

Other games have similar mannerisms that stem from an online source, like watching skilled players do it.  I rarely have issues like this when playing in person.  That said, I think "gg" no longer means good game as much as it means that you have enough respect for your opponent to acknowledge him before leaving the match.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: drg on June 17, 2011, 02:41:31 pm
I agree with the people saying gg/gl are just irrelevant things that are expected to be typed but mean nothing.  There used to be people with very offensive names running around, those at least have vanished from what I've seen.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2011, 03:08:58 pm
Generally if I'm going to quit because I'm getting my ass handed to me so much its not worth it, I'll say something along the lines of "You've got this one, mind if I resign?" That seems like the polite thing to do to me.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Arya Stark on June 17, 2011, 03:27:59 pm
2 big thumbs up on everything rrenaud said!!!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Stoc on June 17, 2011, 05:01:22 pm
Generally if I'm going to quit because I'm getting my ass handed to me so much its not worth it, I'll say something along the lines of "You've got this one, mind if I resign?" That seems like the polite thing to do to me.
Has anyone asked you to stay? Sometimes I'd like to see where my deck goes (but I'd never ask someone to stay in a game where they're obviously not having fun). For that reason, I tend to stay and play out games even when it's clear I'm going to lose.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Taqman on June 17, 2011, 05:20:45 pm
I much prefer someone to be a dick than say "gl, hf" before every game.  I mean have fun?  Really??? Who started this silliness? 

And frankly, I hope that you get horrible luck when you face me, I'll need all the help I can get to break into the coveted top 25 spot.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: guided on June 17, 2011, 05:31:24 pm
gl (or hf) & gg are basically the "Hello" and "Goodbye" of online gaming. It's polite acknowledgement, analogous to the politeness you'd offer people you meet in real life by verbally greeting them. I acknowledge my isotropic opponents' existence by saying something to them before and after each match (at minimum), and I'm always a little put off when people say literally nothing the whole time.

If I don't think it was a good game, I find something else to say instead.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Blaeu on June 17, 2011, 05:33:49 pm
I much prefer someone to be a dick than say "gl, hf" before every game.  I mean have fun?  Really??? Who started this silliness? 

And frankly, I hope that you get horrible luck when you face me, I'll need all the help I can get to break into the coveted top 25 spot.

Although I do not disagree with you directly, I think you are overlooking the sportsmanship part of the game.  When I play, I want to win, and I want to have fun doing so.  However, I respect the fact that my opponent wants the same thing.  I will usually say "gg" when I win a match because I appreciate the fact that my opponent stayed in until the game was over, even though he was losing.  If it was a close game, then the "gg" actually has real meaning.

When I lose, I will also "gg" because I want to let the opponent know that even though I lost, those are the breaks and I don't hold anything against him.

Sure, all of this should be assumed, but it's not.  It does seem silly to wish you opponent "good luck" before the match starts, because as you said, you hope they have horrible luck and lose.  In the same light as "gg" tough, this is just a way to say, "we both want to win so lets both do our best."

Even when people do not realize they are implying this when they type "gl hf" and "gg," they are still actually implying it just because they chose to type it when they could have just said nothing.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jack Rudd on June 17, 2011, 05:41:06 pm
I think that next time I start a game on Isotropic, I shall say "I am alive and so are you". That is essentially the message conveyed there.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Elyv on June 17, 2011, 05:45:52 pm
I like to start games with hi hf; that way, I can be polite, but without the inconvenience of pretending that I want my opponent to get lucky.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Stoc on June 17, 2011, 05:47:22 pm
I've participated in a lot of online communities over the years, and I picked up "gl" and "gg" on Isotropic because that's what this community does. I agree with Blaeu, I say "gg" as another way of saying "no hard feelings" when I lose and as a nod of respect when I win. I have left games without saying "gg" in the past, usually when the opponent did or said something I thought was spiteful.

You may as well disdain the people at work who say "Hi" as you pass them in the hallway.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: theory on June 17, 2011, 05:48:21 pm
I much prefer someone to be a dick than say "gl, hf" before every game.  I mean have fun?  Really??? Who started this silliness?
Why do chess players shake hands before and after the match?  Why do fencers salute each other before the match?  Why do hockey players line up for the traditional team handshake after playoff series?  Why do Ultimate players cheer their opponents after the game?  Why do we say hello to our co-workers as we pass them in the hallway?  Why football coaches seek each other out after games to congratulate the winner?

Saying "GG" to your opponent is telling him that he played well.  It's respectful and polite.  The fact that you are bitter does not and should not take away from the fact that your opponent played well and defeated you.  If you don't believe in this philosophy then don't worry!  You need not worry about not appearing well-mannered and respectful, because you aren't.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: fp on June 17, 2011, 06:18:59 pm
Silly idea 1:

Why don't we create a simple list of "civility" rules that people can read and understand. Perhaps one of the issues about civility is that people don't know about or understand the unwritten rules. If we write them someone where people can find and read them, I suspect more people will be willing to follow them.

Question 2:

What are the civility issues regarding suggestions and advice? When is it okay to tell a player: Thief is a bad card (in 2 players), etc.?

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Blaeu on June 17, 2011, 06:28:56 pm
Silly idea 1:

Why don't we create a simple list of "civility" rules that people can read and understand. Perhaps one of the issues about civility is that people don't know about or understand the unwritten rules. If we write them someone where people can find and read them, I suspect more people will be willing to follow them.

Question 2:

What are the civility issues regarding suggestions and advice? When is it okay to tell a player: Thief is a bad card (in 2 players), etc.?



People who don't know about or understand the unwritten rules of being civil are typically people who just are not civil.  Making a list for people to follow wouldn't actually help anything, it would just try to force the issue.  Also, I don't want people to "gg" because they feel they have to, I want them to "gg" because they want to.  If they feel forced, it defeats the purpose.

People who want to be civil and don't know how will learn on their own.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: fp on June 17, 2011, 06:43:44 pm
People who don't know about or understand the unwritten rules of being civil are typically people who just are not civil.  Making a list for people to follow wouldn't actually help anything, it would just try to force the issue.  Also, I don't want people to "gg" because they feel they have to, I want them to "gg" because they want to.  If they feel forced, it defeats the purpose.

People who want to be civil and don't know how will learn on their own.


For the most part, I will not disagree- most people who are not civil just don't care. However, there are a small group of people who just do know any better through perhaps no fault of their own. At the very least it would not hurt to have a suggest list of civil "rules" so that those who are in that small group who honestly do not know any better can become informed.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Zaphod on June 17, 2011, 08:16:45 pm

Yeah, the rudeness factor does seem to be going up a little.  And I'm not talking about people not saying "gl hf" or "gg", because everyone forgets to do that once in awhile.


A couple of weeks ago, someone beat me on isotropic and then posted something like, "That was too easy.  A Fairgrounds strategy?  Really?  That was stupid."  That ticked me off a little.  When someone loses and posts a snarky remark, it doesn't typically bother me, because I've done it too (I'm not proud of it, but I have).  I find my anger in such situations is really directed at myself for having a poor strategy, not at my opponent.  As a rule, I try to avoid personal attacks, and I would like to see others do the same.


We all know that the internet is somewhat anonymous, and therefore people tend to be themselves more than they would in real life.  If someone would be polite in person for selfish reasons only, he probably won't bother to be polite online.  I feel compelled to remind these people of something Joss Whedon once said - "Always be yourself...unless you suck."
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on June 17, 2011, 10:26:47 pm
If I feel like it was a good game, I'll throw out a gg.  But I'm not going to say it if I didn't feel like it really was...  In that case you might get a "thanks for the game".

As for the beginning, gl, hf, etc seems crazy to me.  I'll stick with "Hello" or "Hi :)"

That way I'm not pretending to wish good luck, the whole point of being here is to have fun, and I still (hopefully) don't come across as being inconsiderate.

Sometimes if I'm playing against someone who isn't being friendly towards me, I'm not going to stick around to exchange false pleasantries afterwards.

That said, if I lose 115 to -3, and I say "gg"...you can assume that's a snarky comment.  Chances are what's coming out of my mouth doesn't start with g's...

As for intentionally being offensive, complaining about your slow play when you're not being slow, naked women in the avatars, etc.  I think that's crossing the line.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jack Monkey Squat on June 17, 2011, 11:26:28 pm
And frankly, I hope that you get horrible luck when you face me

This. 
Or at least, I prefer it when my opponents don't have especially good luck... in fact, I sometimes reply to a "gl" with something along the lines of "may your luck be a little worse than mine"... because y'know what?  all else being equal, I'd rather have the better luck... not that wishing for it makes a lick of difference anyway...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on June 18, 2011, 05:14:53 am
That said, if I lose 115 to -3, and I say "gg"...you can assume that's a snarky comment.  Chances are what's coming out of my mouth doesn't start with g's...

If I lose by such a big margin, I will 'gg' if it WAS a good game and I got outplayed. That is perfectly possible in a game with such a scoreline. However, if I lose by such a margin because of my opponent stalling for time with a goons engine when I've already taken 10 curses to his initial torturer chain when he could have easily just ended the game 20 turns ago, I won't 'gg'. Likelyhood is I'll 'bg'. And that's only if I haven't already resigned without asking permission.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Nimmy on June 18, 2011, 05:20:22 am
For me civility means acknowledging you're defeated before you resign (you don't *have* to ask if you can resign, though), and apologizing if you were slow for some reason (problem with your internet connection, a phone call, etc). If you don't want  to say "hi/gg" that's ok, but you're being rude.


For me, "hi/gg" is all about acknowledging you and your opponents are human beings. Anything is ok, really, the whole point is just to say something, anything, during the entire game so that your opponent doesn't feel like he is playing against an emotionless computer.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: PetterTB on June 18, 2011, 06:02:02 am
The worst thing I came across was a guy that said I was cheating. He had played his cards as best as possible, and I still had that mout or w.e. so he didn't win. So I was cheating. His finishing comment was:

"I won this one, you know that"

Another guy tried to "tip" me that contrabands should be the last treasure you play..

About the resign thing, I didn't know about the resign button before some days ago. So I stayed when I lost! In some few cases, wheere he had 6 provinces, I had 6 curses and a worse deck, and he still thought for ages about what to do, to be able to not only buy VP but also to give me more curses, and then even bought duchies! Then I simply left.

I don't allways type in the gl hf, and im almost allways the last one to do it, since I'm usually perusing the cards the first seconds. Still, if the opponent start chatting away, or discuss the game, I'm all in :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on June 18, 2011, 06:12:18 am
Another guy tried to "tip" me that contrabands should be the last treasure you play..

Love it!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Personman on June 18, 2011, 07:09:51 am
On the topic of the OP, yes, civility has declined significantly over time -- but maybe over a longer time scale than you think. In the very early days of isotropic, pre-rankings, pre-dominionstrategy.com, pre-BGGDL, I think I had fairly involved conversations with at least half the people I played with, and seriously EVERYONE was really nice. There also weren't very many of everyone :P

Isotropic remains one of the best-mannered and most friendly online gaming communities I've ever seen, but as always there is a cost to growth. I see people whine about bad luck a lot more often now, and there have been a few offensive user names/people spamming lobby chat with swear words, and VERY occasionally I've had someone actively rude to me in a game.

There is of course nothing anyone can do about it except to be polite yourself. I haven't done this recently, but I used to always take a bit of time out of a session to find a new player and help them figure out the website and welcome them to the community -- perhaps it's less useful now that it's so much bigger and a new player will easily find other new players to learn with, but still, I should do some more of that.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: theory on June 18, 2011, 07:36:15 am
And frankly, I hope that you get horrible luck when you face me

This. 
Or at least, I prefer it when my opponents don't have especially good luck... in fact, I sometimes reply to a "gl" with something along the lines of "may your luck be a little worse than mine"... because y'know what?  all else being equal, I'd rather have the better luck... not that wishing for it makes a lick of difference anyway...
I wonder if you say this in real life.  "Good luck on the exam!"  "I hope you fail so you can push down the curve and indirectly boost my grade."
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on June 18, 2011, 08:08:14 am
Well, my philosophy is this: I always say hi or GL and mean it, and I always say gg because it is respectful win or lose.  I resign when I feel I have no chance without asking permission because that is a valid way to end a game.  We are free to knock over our King whenever we choose.  Why would I ever ask permission for something that I am going to do no matter what the answer?  That would be completely insincere. 

I am sorry if it offends, but don't expect me to chat you up.  I am there to play a game.  If I wanted to etalk I would go to IM or a chat room or something.  That being said, if someone asks me a question or seeks some kind of insight I am happy to oblige.  I will never disparage anyone or be a bad winner or loser.  I am happy when I win and happy when I lose, providing I learned something.  Bad luck is just part of the game.

One more thing, I don't care for hf.  I wouldn't presume to tell you to enjoy anything.  It is kind of stupid.  It is not at all offensive, just stupid.  Hey person I don't know!  Enjoy this trouncing I am about to do my best to lay on you!  I mean it's not like we are having a contest to see who can give each other more Care Bears.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jack Rudd on June 18, 2011, 11:05:04 am
I tend to sign off with "wp" rather than "gg" when I've lost.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: painted_cow on June 18, 2011, 12:46:22 pm
I always start with "hi, gl hf", just because it seems standard to me in competitive 1on1 gaming.

Its clear that you dont really want your opponent to draw perfectly each turn, but it would be good when he doesnt have this really bad draws like Potion and 2 in Familar-games and no "doing nothing turns" at all. In Magic you also dont really want to win versus a screwed/flooded opponent. Its much better if both players get their strategy on like they wanted and then see, which strategy was better.

Saying "gg" is also standard. Only sometimes when i am really pissed i "forget" this. This can happen if you lose like 4 games in a row and you drew only 7$ in last turns :-)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jack Monkey Squat on June 18, 2011, 01:56:19 pm
I wonder if you say this in real life.  "Good luck on the exam!"  "I hope you fail so you can push down the curve and indirectly boost my grade."

if I'm in a competitive situation, I want to come out ahead... I especially don't want to lose simply because someone else better fortune than I do... that said, your example fails because the lack of good luck doesn't imply the presence of bad fortune... a more accurate sentiment would be "I hope you score one point worse than me" (aka: "I hope I score one point better than you"), and if I had been competitive about grades, maybe that would have been an accurate sentiment... but I wasn't, so it wasn't relevant...

but let's turn this around... do you really want all of your classmates to have good fortune on exams and end up with higher scores than you, pushing your grade down, no matter how proficient you are in the subject matter?  or, to put this back in the context of the game (where it really belongs), do you really want me to always have perfect draws?  always getting to play villages before smithies?  always having the right reaction card for your attacks?  always swindling/sabotaging your most critical cards?  I certainly wouldn't want that...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Death to Sea Hags on June 18, 2011, 03:20:49 pm
That said, if I lose 115 to -3, and I say "gg"...you can assume that's a snarky comment.  Chances are what's coming out of my mouth doesn't start with g's...

If I lose by such a big margin, I will 'gg' if it WAS a good game and I got outplayed. That is perfectly possible in a game with such a scoreline. However, if I lose by such a margin because of my opponent stalling for time with a goons engine when I've already taken 10 curses to his initial torturer chain when he could have easily just ended the game 20 turns ago, I won't 'gg'. Likelyhood is I'll 'bg'. And that's only if I haven't already resigned without asking permission.

This.

I dislike players taking too long to end an obviously-won game. Losing stinks, especially if you've had bad luck in a game, so I can understand some soreness from losers. But if you've already won, just end the game. If you only need to ironworks a $2 card to get a third pile, don't keep running your engine and buying VP. I can understand being worried that your thin deck is about to stall out, so you need to get enough points to prevent a comeback.  There's no points for margin of victory.  RUTSing is truly lame.


Just had a colony game where other player is up by 30+.  "You've got this one," I say, pop the score from the point counter. I try to be subtle: I buy three estates, so there's only two left. He buys a colony <i>and a silver</i>.  I buy another estate - and point out that he could've ended the game and won.  He buys a Province <i>and a duchy</i>.

I'll walk from that kind of game.  Just leave the window open and make him wait for the time-out.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rrenaud on June 18, 2011, 04:32:39 pm

This.

I dislike players taking too long to end an obviously-won game. Losing stinks, especially if you've had bad luck in a game, so I can understand some soreness from losers. But if you've already won, just end the game. If you only need to ironworks a $2 card to get a third pile, don't keep running your engine and buying VP. I can understand being worried that your thin deck is about to stall out, so you need to get enough points to prevent a comeback.  There's no points for margin of victory.  RUTSing is truly lame.


Just had a colony game where other player is up by 30+.  "You've got this one," I say, pop the score from the point counter. I try to be subtle: I buy three estates, so there's only two left. He buys a colony <i>and a silver</i>.  I buy another estate - and point out that he could've ended the game and won.  He buys a Province <i>and a duchy</i>.

I'll walk from that kind of game.  Just leave the window open and make him wait for the time-out.

That is assholery IMO.  If you've lost, just leave.  Don't take 5 minutes from this guys life.  The winner can't leave and get his win, but you can leave and get your loss.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on June 18, 2011, 05:02:01 pm

This.

I dislike players taking too long to end an obviously-won game. Losing stinks, especially if you've had bad luck in a game, so I can understand some soreness from losers. But if you've already won, just end the game. If you only need to ironworks a $2 card to get a third pile, don't keep running your engine and buying VP. I can understand being worried that your thin deck is about to stall out, so you need to get enough points to prevent a comeback.  There's no points for margin of victory.  RUTSing is truly lame.


Just had a colony game where other player is up by 30+.  "You've got this one," I say, pop the score from the point counter. I try to be subtle: I buy three estates, so there's only two left. He buys a colony and a silver.  I buy another estate - and point out that he could've ended the game and won.  He buys a Province and a duchy.

I'll walk from that kind of game.  Just leave the window open and make him wait for the time-out.

That is assholery IMO.  If you've lost, just leave.  Don't take 5 minutes from this guys life.  The winner can't leave and get his win, but you can leave and get your loss.


Sure, if you've lost, just leave, but by the same argument, if you've won, just win.  If the winning player is obviously intent on wasting the losing player's time just to be an ass, I think they deserve to have a bit of theirs wasted in return.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: nemryn on June 18, 2011, 05:48:28 pm

This.

I dislike players taking too long to end an obviously-won game. Losing stinks, especially if you've had bad luck in a game, so I can understand some soreness from losers. But if you've already won, just end the game. If you only need to ironworks a $2 card to get a third pile, don't keep running your engine and buying VP. I can understand being worried that your thin deck is about to stall out, so you need to get enough points to prevent a comeback.  There's no points for margin of victory.  RUTSing is truly lame.


Just had a colony game where other player is up by 30+.  "You've got this one," I say, pop the score from the point counter. I try to be subtle: I buy three estates, so there's only two left. He buys a colony and a silver.  I buy another estate - and point out that he could've ended the game and won.  He buys a Province and a duchy.

I'll walk from that kind of game.  Just leave the window open and make him wait for the time-out.
That is assholery IMO.  If you've lost, just leave.  Don't take 5 minutes from this guys life.  The winner can't leave and get his win, but you can leave and get your loss.
If it becomes known that being an ass means you'll have to wait an extra 5-10 minutes before you officially win, perhaps that will be an incentive to not be an ass.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: painted_cow on June 18, 2011, 06:06:08 pm

This.

I dislike players taking too long to end an obviously-won game. Losing stinks, especially if you've had bad luck in a game, so I can understand some soreness from losers. But if you've already won, just end the game. If you only need to ironworks a $2 card to get a third pile, don't keep running your engine and buying VP. I can understand being worried that your thin deck is about to stall out, so you need to get enough points to prevent a comeback.  There's no points for margin of victory.  RUTSing is truly lame.


Just had a colony game where other player is up by 30+.  "You've got this one," I say, pop the score from the point counter. I try to be subtle: I buy three estates, so there's only two left. He buys a colony <i>and a silver</i>.  I buy another estate - and point out that he could've ended the game and won.  He buys a Province <i>and a duchy</i>.

I'll walk from that kind of game.  Just leave the window open and make him wait for the time-out.

Imo not ending the game when it is clear like that and you even helped him  to buy Estates sucks hard! But timing ourself out isnt really much better anyway...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Personman on June 18, 2011, 08:55:40 pm
Do you guys know about the resign button? At the beginning of your turn you can click 'end turn' and it will appear. Try it out some time!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on June 19, 2011, 12:29:36 am
The point remains, if at any time you can end the game with a win you should immediately do so.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Personman on June 19, 2011, 12:45:11 am
I don't agree in the general case. In particular, I think it's very reasonable to play out a long last turn and try to buy as many VP as possible instead of just plunking down 8 and buying that last province.

I often to just buy the province, cause I've played out plenty of last turns and I don't really care that much. But doing so isn't terribly rude -- your opponent may even enjoy seeing you go off.

There's also a fine line between playing safely and dragging the game on uselessly. I've lost a number of games I was sure I had in the bag by trying to end them to quickly. Dominion is pretty high variance, and it's very possible for crazy come-from-behind wins to occur if you are not very careful. So think twice before you hate someone for dragging it out. They might think you have a chance -- and if you don't agree, you can always just resign.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Axe Knight on June 19, 2011, 01:12:47 am
Keep in mind, not everyone counts points, so they may not be aware that they could win.  I like to think that's the case when someone does that to me, rather than "running up" the score; there's so many games on isotropic, it probably doesn't do much if someone crushes me by 50 or squeaks by on a tiebreaker.  Up until I started playing isotropic, I was still stuck in "Must have as many Provinces as possible" mode.  Me personally, I'm scared to death of losing if I don't win as soon as I possibly can. 
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: PetterTB on June 19, 2011, 04:13:39 am
This does boil down to the good old "turn the other cheek" - dilemma.

He does asshattery to me, should I do asshattery to him? If it seems like he is playing with you, you have 1 province and a wrecked deck, he has 5 and an engine, and then starts buying gardens, then by all means tell him to end the game! I also find it offensive when someone leading by a mile desides to use 5min. on his turn to be entire sure he can buy that last estate :rolleyes:. Off course actually just leaving is reserved for intenses situations.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on June 19, 2011, 11:34:07 am
Keep in mind, not everyone counts points, so they may not be aware that they could win.  I like to think that's the case when someone does that to me, rather than "running up" the score; there's so many games on isotropic, it probably doesn't do much if someone crushes me by 50 or squeaks by on a tiebreaker.  Up until I started playing isotropic, I was still stuck in "Must have as many Provinces as possible" mode.  Me personally, I'm scared to death of losing if I don't win as soon as I possibly can.


If it's close I totally get it.  There's many games where I'm not sure if I'm ahead or not.  There's probably been many times I could have won it, but didn't because I wasn't sure if I should buy the last card or not.


But there's many games where it's very obvious who is winning and who is losing, and in those cases it's just rude of the winner to drag it out as long as possible.  (And one could make the argument that it's rude of the loser to keep dragging it out too.)


I propose a "resign" button that you can use when it's not your turn.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: guided on June 19, 2011, 01:21:56 pm
If you feel somebody is dragging out the game, make a polite comment about it to point out that they could win rather than continuing (maybe they didn't realize a 3-pile ending was available?), or resign on your turn. If you deliberately time out instead of resigning, you are a hundred times worse of a human being than somebody who fails to end the game at the first opportunity. Inexcusable, period.

Personally, I tend to get very paranoid about comebacks and will sometimes run up the score rather than working toward the fastest possible ending, even if I think I'm probably ahead. This especially applies to things like Goons games (where comebacks are all too possible if you start buying Coppers), and Vineyards games (where I have no F'ing clue what the score is). I have lost games because I didn't do this. But when I do this I make it a point to tell my opponent in the chat that I'm not drawing things out deliberately, just doing my best to ensure victory.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Fuu on June 19, 2011, 01:46:42 pm
Saying gg, gl every game may be vacuous, but it is civil. Playing a game without saying anything is just a bit unpleasant. You can at least say bg if it was totally one-sided. Oh, and rubbing it in if you're winning isn't very much fun - isotropic needs a 'disable chat' feature if it doesn't have one already.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rls22 on June 19, 2011, 02:02:01 pm
I agree with the folks that have said “hi, gl” and “gg”, are essentially “hello” and “goodbye” in my mind.  They don’t really mean anything, but it’s nice to acknowledge your opponent. 

I personally, am happy to chat if someone asks questions or wants to interact (I had someone ask me to critique their strategy post-game the other day, which was sort of odd, but I was happy to do it).  But, I’ll rarely start an interaction on chat, unless something funny or cool happens in the game.

On the topic of general civility, I haven’t experienced any change really since auto-match was implemented.  I’ve only had maybe 2-3 negative interactions in all of my games (mocking my strategy or calling me insulting names).  When I first started playing, I was actually shocked by how nice and civil everyone was.   I will say, there was a thread on BGG that made me think it would be nice to have a feature where I could make my own personal “blacklist” of people who are actively rude or extremely, extremely slow, but that’s sort of an idle desire, not something I think the community really needs.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Death to Sea Hags on June 19, 2011, 02:27:44 pm
Keep in mind, not everyone counts points, so they may not be aware that they could win.  I like to think that's the case when someone does that to me, rather than "running up" the score; there's so many games on isotropic, it probably doesn't do much if someone crushes me by 50 or squeaks by on a tiebreaker.  Up until I started playing isotropic, I was still stuck in "Must have as many Provinces as possible" mode.  Me personally, I'm scared to death of losing if I don't win as soon as I possibly can. 

Agreed.  But in the case I gave, I hit "!status" for the point counter, so we both knew exactly how many points there were.  And when your opponent buys three estates, down 30+pts, well, let's just say there's no comeback brewing.  This isn't a case of uncertainty, deck variance, etc.  This is, "you can end the game <i>this instant</i> and win."


Do you guys know about the resign button? At the beginning of your turn you can click 'end turn' and it will appear. Try it out some time!

Yup.   I'll resign when it's a lost cause, but the game had been reasonable up to that point, so I figured I'd just finish it out. Why bother resigning to avoid one turn? I save "resign" for times when I can see its going to be a long, slow, unpleasant game - destined for many more turns of pain.


If you feel somebody is dragging out the game, make a polite comment about it to point out that they could win rather than continuing (maybe they didn't realize a 3-pile ending was available?), or resign on your turn. If you deliberately time out instead of resigning, you are a hundred times worse of a human being than somebody who fails to end the game at the first opportunity. Inexcusable, period.

That's a pretty strong statement.  Even after polite comments, score displays, and attempts to end a game quickly short of resigning, the winner is <i>still</i> being a time-waster AND a jerk - but time-wasting by the loser, <i>in response</i> is "Inexcusable"? You're entitled to your opinion, but I doubt you'll find many to agree with it.


The point remains, if at any time you can end the game with a win you should immediately do so.

100%.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: guided on June 19, 2011, 02:55:28 pm
That's a pretty strong statement.  Even after polite comments, score displays, and attempts to end a game quickly short of resigning, the winner is still being a time-waster AND a jerk - but time-wasting by the loser, in response is "Inexcusable"? You're entitled to your opinion, but I doubt you'll find many to agree with it.

Your opponent was playing the game, even if you felt they were unnecessarily extending it. In contrast, you declined to play, declined the option of resigning immediately on your turn, and wasted their time on purpose purely for the sake of wasting their time. Yes, your behavior was petty and inexcusable, and it's shameful that you're still defending it.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on June 19, 2011, 05:58:05 pm
I've gotta throw my hat in with guided, theory and MMM.  Not saying anything during a match really does make one uncivil.  It doesn't matter that "gl hf" is basically similar to "hello."  If you don't want your opponent to have fun or have good luck, then at least say "Hi!"

This is basic civility in all of gaming--not just online stuff, but handshakes aren't exactly possible online.  Say hello, say gl hf, say what you like, but for goodness' sake acknowledge that you and your opponent are both humans.  Or, put another way:  I dislike playing against players who wouldn't pass a Turing test based on our game.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Donald X. on June 19, 2011, 07:06:13 pm
I am totally sympathetic towards the guy who wanted to see just how well his deck could perform, and totally unsympathetic towards the guy who made the other guy wait for the timeout.

Them being a jerk doesn't justify you being a jerk. The only time you being jerk is justified is when it's hilarious. And that takes an audience so it really can't apply here.

Timeouts may be honest, but I think the obvious trick is just, track the timeouts by player, and if a player tends to only timeout on later turns in losing positions, drop them from the leaderboard. The leaderboard is the only prize here, so that's as much as you can do. It's the internet; you will always be up against twelve-year-olds some of the time, and the system just has to deal with it as best it can.

Edit: Also I hate how this forum software adds blank lines.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: papaHav on June 19, 2011, 08:53:25 pm
I've taken 3-4 extra turns to try and win the pile driver achievement for colonys...
Worth it! and I appreciate a sport who will play on to try and deny it from me.
=D


Conversely, as the loser in a drawn out game, plenty of times I've stolen a win from a stalling player in the lead...
I'm happy when he stalls passing up the option to win. And obviously if I think my odds are still zero I always have the option to resign and save time, so why is the loser ever entitled to complain about others playing the game and punish them?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: RichyRich on June 19, 2011, 10:37:25 pm
I fail to see why someone wouldn't mention hf, or rather, wouldn't consider hf meaningful. Is anyone on isotropic making money off of a high ranking or w/l ratio? Is anyone earning remarkable accolades and fame within the higher circles of the world? Unless there's some unknown massive following for isotropic games, or there's some secret benefactor paying the top players, no one is earning anything from playing Dominion other than enjoyment and some sense of self-accomplishment. If you're not going to have fun, then why in the world are you playing this game?

As soon as the game is not fun, stop playing. Conversely, keep playing as long as you enjoy it. Good luck and have fun :D
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rls22 on June 19, 2011, 10:48:38 pm
On the resigning issue...  Real world problems aside (important phone call, etc.), my personal opinion is that the only time it's really appropriate to resign is when you have absolutely no chance and the game is progressing very slowly (either because the other person is just playing slowly, or because an incredibly long action chain causes 3 min. turns).  I don't get too worked up about it, really.  But it does really annoy me if it's a fast game, and there's only 1-2 provinces left, and the other person resigns.  I mean, come on.  It just seems spiteful not to let the other person take the "real" win, if it's only going to take 2 min. 

I will admit that occasionally, I just don't notice when I can end the game through piles or something like that.  I tend to do other things while playing so sometimes am just distracted (especially if it's not a close game).  So, I'm not being a dick, just absent-minded...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Death to Sea Hags on June 20, 2011, 07:32:52 am
Yes, there's a resign button, but I think most players frown on resigning one turn before game-end.  There have been lots of threads on BGG already about resigning, and given how often games reach objectively hopeless situations, there's a surprisingly low resignation rate. There's still an expectation that a game will be played out where reasonable to do so.  But part of that community norm is an expectation that the losing player's willingness to stay put and lose graciously is not going to be abused by the winner.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Nagetier on June 20, 2011, 08:31:40 am
my personal opinion is that the only time it's really appropriate to resign is when you have absolutely no chance [...] It just seems spiteful not to let the other person take the "real" win, if it's only going to take 2 min.

Opinion is fine, but I'm interested about why does it seem spiteful to you? There is just winning and losing in a 2-player game, nothing else. Resigning is actually a courtesy of the losing player to save both players from the likely boring last 2 minutes.

Quote from: Death to Sea Hags
But part of that community norm is an expectation that the losing player's willingness to stay put and lose graciously is not going to be abused by the winner.

I don't believe that such a norm can be established in sufficiently high-level play. There is no benefit to playing out decided games, but resigning them has an advantage. It's also is a well-established custom in most other game communities.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Death to Sea Hags on June 20, 2011, 10:14:28 am
my personal opinion is that the only time it's really appropriate to resign is when you have absolutely no chance [...] It just seems spiteful not to let the other person take the "real" win, if it's only going to take 2 min.

Opinion is fine, but I'm interested about why does it seem spiteful to you? There is just winning and losing in a 2-player game, nothing else. Resigning is actually a courtesy of the losing player to save both players from the likely boring last 2 minutes.

Quote from: Death to Sea Hags
But part of that community norm is an expectation that the losing player's willingness to stay put and lose graciously is not going to be abused by the winner.

I don't believe that such a norm can be established in sufficiently high-level play. There is no benefit to playing out decided games, but resigning them has an advantage. It's also is a well-established custom in most other game communities.


Five responses:
1.  In sufficiently high level play, you take the win when you can.  My example involved a player deliberately prolonging an already-won game, by multiple turns.  There's a lot of adjectives for that behavior.  "High-level" isn't one of them.
2.  Isotropic, in aggregate, is not a sufficiently high-level community.  The average play level is simply that - average.  I agree there might be different norms for BGGDL games, or lvl 30+, but then you're referring to a very small % of the total players.
3.  Resigning is NOT the community norm in Dominion or isotropic.  Apart from all the background disconnects, lags, and "crap-the-boss-is-coming" time-outs, I am certain that if we trawled councilroom we'd find that end-game resignations cluster around the cards and situations that people hate most: KC-Possessions, KC-Saboteurs, Torturer pins, or mass-Ambassador, persistent Ghost ships, and 8-2 curse splits with no trashing, etc.  Moreover, I expect that 98% or more of Province only games where one player has over 43 pts before the last turn are NOT resigned.  Ditto for nearly every other objective standard of points-based hopelessness where there is still a plausible end within 3-8 turns.*
4.  Beginners are least likely to resign. If you're reading this board then you're not a noob.  But you've played against lots of them, and many of those games are NOT close. And yet, noobs rarely resign when down 6 provinces to zero.  A "play-mean-until-he-rage-quits" norm will encourage far more bad behavior than a "tit-for-tat-be-a-good-sport-or-else" norm does, and the former will drive noobs away from the hobby. It's very bad for the community and the hobby to excuse abusive behavior by winners, but decry such behavior by losers.
5.  Good sportsmanship involves respecting the other player's enjoyment of the game. There is satisfaction in completing a game, for winner and loser alike.


*Thus excluding perpetual motion vp machines, like Goons-Watchtower, KC-Monument, or Bishop-Gold-Gold-Gold.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on June 20, 2011, 10:23:37 am
I will admit that occasionally, I just don't notice when I can end the game through piles or something like that.  I tend to do other things while playing so sometimes am just distracted (especially if it's not a close game).  So, I'm not being a dick, just absent-minded...


I do that too, so I understand.  I'm just thinking about the games where someone is playing 4 goons, a bunch of wharves, worker's village, etc. in a hand with 1 province left that you just can't seem to get enough coin to buy & end the miserable game, and he's sitting there just netting who knows how many points each turn instead of grabbing it himself.  There's no question that you're going to lose, and he's just trying to rub it in.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rrenaud on June 20, 2011, 10:49:07 am
I do that too, so I understand.  I'm just thinking about the games where someone is playing 4 goons, a bunch of wharves, worker's village, etc. in a hand with 1 province left that you just can't seem to get enough coin to buy & end the miserable game, and he's sitting there just netting who knows how many points each turn instead of grabbing it himself.  There's no question that you're going to lose, and he's just trying to rub it in.

I am with guided on this one.  Where is the border?  If I am set up for a long game (I have more goons, a better infrastructure, etc), and you aren't (maybe you bought coppers too early, and now you can only play one goons per turn and average $6/turn), it's your burden to end the game.  I am just going to keep getting bigger until you push the game close to end, and then I am going to unleash the 3 goons/5 buys turns that ends it.  I am happy for you to resign if see the writing on the wall and I'll even tell you that when I think it's clear that the game is basically hopeless for you, but don't get pissed at me for making the game go long, it's where I have the highest chance of winning.  Even if it's the difference between a 100% chance of winning (long) and a 98% chance of winning (short), I'll go long.

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on June 20, 2011, 11:20:34 am
I do that too, so I understand.  I'm just thinking about the games where someone is playing 4 goons, a bunch of wharves, worker's village, etc. in a hand with 1 province left that you just can't seem to get enough coin to buy & end the miserable game, and he's sitting there just netting who knows how many points each turn instead of grabbing it himself.  There's no question that you're going to lose, and he's just trying to rub it in.

I am with guided on this one.  Where is the border?  If I am set up for a long game (I have more goons, a better infrastructure, etc), and you aren't (maybe you bought coppers too early, and now you can only play one goons per turn and average $6/turn), it's your burden to end the game.  I am just going to keep getting bigger until you push the game close to end, and then I am going to unleash the 3 goons/5 buys turns that ends it.  I am happy for you to resign if see the writing on the wall and I'll even tell you that when I think it's clear that the game is basically hopeless for you, but don't get pissed at me for making the game go long, it's where I have the highest chance of winning.  Even if it's the difference between a 100% chance of winning (long) and a 98% chance of winning (short), I'll go long.


I agree if you have a better shot by going long, by all means go long.  I'm talking about when you have a %100 chance of winning by ending it right now by buying that one last card that your opponent cant, vs. a %100 chance of winning by dragging it out 30 minutes just to make the loser feel bad.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Anon79 on June 20, 2011, 11:23:10 am
Okay, I think there's two separate scenarios here.

One is the case where the game is almost but not quite 100% won for the leading player; in this case I argue that the leading player should be allowed to do whatever it takes to win the game. And if that means playing out a 3-minute-long chain and further bloating the deck, or running up the perpetual-combo VP tokens, etc, then so be it.

The other case is where the game has been 100% decided. In which case, I feel that the leading player should not drag the game out but should play towards a reasonably fast conclusion of the game. Sometimes the leading player may misjudge and play towards a slower ending, e.g. after a close Duchy+Estate dance, should the leading player build up the deck again to buy that last province, or work with the trailing player to empty a 3rd pile? Whichever he picks, if the trailing player picks otherwise then a misunderstanding might arise where the trailing player feels the leading player is dragging out the game, but the leading player is actually playing towards an alternate end.

As a subset of this 100% situation, the leading player may sometimes fail to realise that e.g. a 3-pile ending is possible, and start playing towards another end which is "obviously" longer. In such situations I argue that the leading player has no right to complain if the trailing player decides to resign 1 turn before the game ends, the rationale being that the leading player IS unnecessarily prolonging the game, albeit inadvertently, instead of bringing it to a swift end. The trailing player has no way of judging whether the leading player is absent-minded or just being mean, so is somewhat justified in resigning since the leading player is somewhat "at-fault" here.

TL;DR:
1) The border is whether the game is 100% won or not 100% won.
2) If you are being "absent-minded", but your behaviour is no different from someone who is "being a dick", you have no justification to be annoyed should your oppo resign 1 turn before the game ends. In a sense, you are the one who started behaving badly.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: theory on June 20, 2011, 11:40:23 am
A lot of arguments and disagreements come when people speculate on others' motives.  We tend to ascribe negative motives more readily to others than to ourselves.

Here, if you're really upset at what your opponent is doing and you are convinced that he is deliberately trying to make you suffer, it seems like you have a nice solution to this problem: the resign button.  The fact that you don't use it implies that you believe you have some small chance of success, in which case his play is more than justified and you should not ascribe him such malevolent motives.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: guided on June 20, 2011, 11:44:15 am
If you think the game is lost, and you want it to end, resign. That's what resignation is for. There is no defensible universe of ethics where it's not OK to click the "resign" button but it is OK to resign by deliberately timing out.

I don't toy with people on purpose, ever, but somebody who's built an awesome engine and wants to have fun riding it for a while is still playing the game. If it's unfun for you, again: resign and be done with it. If it's really unfun for you, don't play with them again, or try to convince them to be more considerate next time.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on June 20, 2011, 11:49:22 am
Here, if you're really upset at what your opponent is doing and you are convinced that he is deliberately trying to make you suffer, it seems like you have a nice solution to this problem: the resign button.  The fact that you don't use it implies that you believe you have some small chance of success, in which case his play is more than justified and you should not ascribe him such malevolent motives.


Just try to not get too frustrated while waiting 10 minutes while they play their completely unnecessary 45 move turn, waiting 2 minutes between clicks, until you *can* click the resign button.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: livious on June 20, 2011, 11:57:31 am
I'm indifferent to the pleasantries.  I'll respond to a greeting and usually say gg at the end, whatever.
I don't think there's anything wrong if somebody wants to play for the most points.  If they're trying to waste your time it's a pretty terrible method considering it only works if you've got some strange aversion to the concede button.  If anything I've felt vaguely bad sometimes when I've done the reverse and wasted someone's time by not scooping and letting them move on with their life when I'm in a clearly hopeless position.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on June 20, 2011, 12:01:40 pm
This is a no brainer folks.  It is never discourteous to resign from a game.  Ever.  As a matter of fact, it is more polite to resign when you have already lost.  It is not good courtesy to keep playing cards when you can make one move and win.  There is no reason whatsoever to do anything else when one move will end the game.  Just go to the buy phase and buy the Province.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Death to Sea Hags on June 20, 2011, 12:40:54 pm
The fact that you don't use it implies that you believe you have some small chance of success

This is a core assumption.  But its normative - not descriptive.  The vast majority of players do not resign the instant they know a game is lost.  As I said, look at how often you get to 43 points in a standard game but the other player doesn't resign on their next turn.

I completely agree that if a game is at all in doubt, play on.  If you want to save for a mega-turn, do it.  If you need to slog on until you've exhausted three piles, okay.  And maybe you just don't see the third pile - happens.  People LIKE to play to the end of a game, and self-evidently the vast majority of the players on Isotropic think it's enjoyable and courteous to do so.  I just think taking advantage of that courtesy is wrong.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 20, 2011, 12:49:42 pm
I like letting the games play out generally, particularly for the statistics-gathering sites. But if my opponent isn't ending it as quickly as I thought, or if it's going to be a long, painful course, I'll go ahead and resign.
The ggs and such I'll generally give if my opponent does, but I don't feel obligated, especially if they don't. I'll actually write something out if I think it was actually a particularly wonderful or interesting game.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rls22 on June 20, 2011, 12:52:23 pm
I think some of the differing opinions on resigning come down to whether you think "a win is a win, no matter if you get it through your opponent resigning or through actually completing the game" or whether you get some satisfaction out of actually completing the game.  I tend towards the latter (part of the fun of dominion is when your engine gets going and you get to see how what you've built plays out).  So, I think resigning can take away some of the enjoyment for the other person.  But, if the game is a long way from ending, I don't expect people to invest 5+ minutes solely in someone else's enjoyment.  Again, I usually don't get too worked up about it, because I know there's differing opinions.  But, to me, 1 province left in a fast game feels like you should just let it ride out for sportsmanship purposes, even if its mathematically impossible for you to win. 
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: chwhite on June 20, 2011, 12:59:24 pm
Personally, I much prefer to play until the end of a game, even when I know for sure I've lost.  Sometimes if I've been Torturer-pinned to utter oblivion and it's really no fun at all, then I'll resign (and if I resign I'll acknowledge my opponent with a "gg"), but normally I'll let my opponent play it out until the end, and I really don't mind at all if they spend a little extra time to show off what, for example, their multi-Goons engine can do.  Mega-turns are fun, it's more satisfying to play things to completion, and I don't want to deprive any opponents that feel the same.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: mischiefmaker on June 20, 2011, 02:38:36 pm
I am one of those who agrees that a "hi gl hf" and a "gg" make the game more pleasant, even if you don't think they mean anything. And I enjoy chatting about strategy afterward, if my opponent is like-minded, so if you're reading this and we meet...:)

On resigning: is it ok to point out to your opponent that they can resign? Not every new player knows it exists, and I often have the feeling that my opponent isn't having fun anymore (sometimes due to a snarky comment or two), but I also am not sure how to phrase this in a way that isn't demeaning or gloating (because saying it means you think your opponent has no chance, and he might be playing out the game to be polite to you).

I will usually say something like "I won't be offended if you resign", but I'm not sure if this is rude, and am interested to hear if anyone has ever suggested that their opponent resign, or received such a suggestion, and how it was phrased.


Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: guided on June 20, 2011, 02:58:32 pm
If somebody complains that they think I'm drawing out the game, I'll point out that they're free to resign. Otherwise I'll just finish the game, though as I mentioned before I will sometimes offer an explanation for why it might appear I'm running up the score--typically involving the word "paranoid"  ;)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on June 20, 2011, 03:16:34 pm
If somebody complains that they think I'm drawing out the game, I'll point out that they're free to resign. Otherwise I'll just finish the game, though as I mentioned before I will sometimes offer an explanation for why it might appear I'm running up the score--typically involving the word "paranoid"  ;)

Not that I've been in that situation, but if I could tell that the other player simply was not having fun, I'd put the possible offense on me.

Something like, "My feelings won't be hurt if you want to call it now." That would prompt a newbie to ask, "How do I do that?"
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 20, 2011, 03:18:15 pm
I am one of those who agrees that a "hi gl hf" and a "gg" make the game more pleasant, even if you don't think they mean anything. And I enjoy chatting about strategy afterward, if my opponent is like-minded, so if you're reading this and we meet... :)

On resigning: is it ok to point out to your opponent that they can resign? Not every new player knows it exists, and I often have the feeling that my opponent isn't having fun anymore (sometimes due to a snarky comment or two), but I also am not sure how to phrase this in a way that isn't demeaning or gloating (because saying it means you think your opponent has no chance, and he might be playing out the game to be polite to you).

I will usually say something like "I won't be offended if you resign", but I'm not sure if this is rude, and am interested to hear if anyone has ever suggested that their opponent resign, or received such a suggestion, and how it was phrased.




Never ever tell your opponent to resign. I play a good amount of chess, a game where resignation is expected and considered polite, and it's a huge no-no there to try to get your opponent to resign with anything other than your moves. Here it's much less a normal part of the game, and so you certainly shouldn't. On the other hand, if your opponent is complaining about how they can't resign or how the game is taking forever, please just end it, then you can point it out. But without this, no.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: theory on June 20, 2011, 03:22:56 pm
The fact that you don't use it implies that you believe you have some small chance of success

This is a core assumption.  But its normative - not descriptive.  The vast majority of players do not resign the instant they know a game is lost.  As I said, look at how often you get to 43 points in a standard game but the other player doesn't resign on their next turn.

I completely agree that if a game is at all in doubt, play on.  If you want to save for a mega-turn, do it.  If you need to slog on until you've exhausted three piles, okay.  And maybe you just don't see the third pile - happens.  People LIKE to play to the end of a game, and self-evidently the vast majority of the players on Isotropic think it's enjoyable and courteous to do so.  I just think taking advantage of that courtesy is wrong.
The complaint was that in an obviously won position, the other person deliberately extends the game (e.g. buys a Duchy instead of the last Province, or doesn't end the third pile).

But if you are in that situation, you are also in a position to have resigned in an obviously lost position.  So I have no sympathy for your complaint, because you chose to bring it upon yourself by choosing not to resign.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rrenaud on June 20, 2011, 03:32:51 pm
Never ever tell your opponent to resign. I play a good amount of chess, a game where resignation is expected and considered polite, and it's a huge no-no there to try to get your opponent to resign with anything other than your moves. Here it's much less a normal part of the game, and so you certainly shouldn't. On the other hand, if your opponent is complaining about how they can't resign or how the game is taking forever, please just end it, then you can point it out. But without this, no.

In chess, resigning is a lot more common place.  Further, i's different to tell your opponent to resign than it is to tell them that you are okay with them to resigning.  The first might be, "hey, you've lost noob!", and the second is more like, "hey, you've almost certainly lost and  I don't think this is fun for you anymore, you should feel free to go and do something more fun."
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 20, 2011, 03:54:41 pm
Never ever tell your opponent to resign. I play a good amount of chess, a game where resignation is expected and considered polite, and it's a huge no-no there to try to get your opponent to resign with anything other than your moves. Here it's much less a normal part of the game, and so you certainly shouldn't. On the other hand, if your opponent is complaining about how they can't resign or how the game is taking forever, please just end it, then you can point it out. But without this, no.

In chess, resigning is a lot more common place.  Further, i's different to tell your opponent to resign than it is to tell them that you are okay with them to resigning.  The first might be, "hey, you've lost noob!", and the second is more like, "hey, you've almost certainly lost and  I don't think this is fun for you anymore, you should feel free to go and do something more fun."
The first sentence of this makes me wonder if you even read my post through, because I basically said that.
To your second point, I think that telling them that you're okay with them resigning might be marginally better, but it essentially boils down to the same thing. The second hypothetical message you posted comes across as incredibly arrogant to me - how in the world would I know how much fun they're having better than they do?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rrenaud on June 20, 2011, 04:10:38 pm
I think tone is being lost in the text. 

I was mostly pointing out that starting from Chess, where resigning is common place and as far as I can tell, games rarely end in real checkmates, and then applying social norms from the chess community to Dominion, where resigning is much less common, and some people think it's bad form to ever resign doesn't make a great analogy.  In chess, where you expect the opponent to resign when they think the game is lost, the offer is certainly more arrogant in than in Dominion.

I think it's reasonable to believe that people prefer playing Dominion games which are yet undecided compared to playing games where they are almost certainly decided and the game will be a loss.  Most people say thanks, gg, when I make the offer to accept resignation.  I've never lost after I've made the offer.  And occasionally, some "never resign" players go and endure the beating and that's fine.  It's a little annoying if they both don't resign and expect me to play for a short end game, but hey, that's their pejorative (they aren't getting short end game until I can be certain that I win).  But it's not really arrogant on my part, I just gave them an option.  I don't do it to piss off my opponents, I just think the resignation is in our mutual interest, we both get to play the fun part of Dominion, where you don't actually know the outcome of a particular game yet.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ImperialStout on June 20, 2011, 05:54:25 pm
To the extent that Isotropic is a relatively new community with inchoate mores, I think it's more helpful to guide etiquette by how you would want people to act in your ideal online Dominion community, rather than what you believe is expected by others.  For instance, all things being equal, I would prefer that people "gg" for all games that were politely played and stay silent for rude players (like those who take 1:30 for each move and discard and then ask their opponents to hurry up, you know who you are) then peremptorily leaving in most cases and saving the "gg" for a select few games.  But then, I enjoy post game discussion after an interesting game, and that puts me in a vanishing minority.  At the end of the day, it's not very important whether people "gg" or not as long they aren't sandbagging or typing profanity in all caps or what have you.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: guided on June 20, 2011, 05:55:52 pm
But then, I enjoy post game discussion after an interesting game

Me too! Thanks again for playing (and discussing) today.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ImperialStout on June 20, 2011, 06:20:07 pm
Same to you!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Personman on June 21, 2011, 02:43:33 am
that's their pejorative

I believe you mean 'prerogative (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prerogative)', but what's really cool about that is that in correcting your usage, I also corrected my own spelling -- I was totally certain that 'pejorative (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pejorative)' was actually spelt 'perjorative', and was just wrong. So thanks! ;)


the actual content of your post


I totally agree. Especially because the Isotropic resign button is so out-of-the-way, in such situations I often say something like 'No offense at all, but do you know about the resign button? It's kind of hidden.' I've never gotten an angry response, though sometimes people seem to be confused about why I would want them to resign -- there does seem to be an oddly pervasive notion in the Dominion community that resigning is rude, and that most people would rather play out an obvious victory than move on to the next game. I sort of understand this in the case of a really cool combo deck that you want to see go off, but it's weird to me that so many people seem to think it's the normal thing.


WanderingWinder, it makes sense that you would see it how you do coming from the Chess community, but I do think the norms are pretty different here, where most people don't even know that resignation is an option, and many that do think it is impolite. I probably wouldn't suggest resigning to anyone I knew personally or who had resigned to me before, though.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Death to Sea Hags on June 21, 2011, 09:44:25 am
there does seem to be an oddly pervasive notion in the Dominion community that resigning is rude, and that most people would rather play out an obvious victory than move on to the next game. I sort of understand this in the case of a really cool combo deck that you want to see go off, but it's weird to me that so many people seem to think it's the normal thing.

I think it has to do with the tempo of the game. Dominion moves quickly and there's an expectation that even a hopeless game will end soon, so there's no great loss in sticking around to the end.

Except, of course, when that expectation is frustrated: the turns drag on, the other player plays "slowly", or the game takes far longer than it should. 

Our perceptions of time are colored by expectations.  In other games, a minute for a move might be totally reasonable - but here, it can feel like an eternity. The problem is that our subjective notions of time and our expectations of "typical" behavior then create situations where the frustration of our expectations causes unhappiness or dicsord. Civility and courtesy are thus about reducing that discord.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on June 21, 2011, 09:56:45 am
I totally agree. Especially because the Isotropic resign button is so out-of-the-way, in such situations I often say something like 'No offense at all, but do you know about the resign button? It's kind of hidden.'

You could always work it into an anecdote. After the opponent makes a play, tell a story (true or not) about how such a move defeated you. Something like, "I remember one game where the other guy had four Goons, and he played them every single turn with a Watchtower to trash the extra cards he bought. After he did that a couple of times, I had to click on Resign Game."

It gives advice on how a card can be exploited, and it lets the opponent know that the button exists. He might ask for it, or he might poke around on his own to try to find it. But, in either case, there should be zero chance that you'll offend the other person (unless he just doesn't like hearing your stories).

Tone is lost in text. While, "I won't be offended if you want to resign," can sound friendly with a pleasant tone of voice and body language, the text strips all that away, and tone is interpreted wholly by the reader and his mood. If the opponent is clearly losing the game, he might be frustrated by bad hand draws or Ghost Ship smacking him around. With such a sour mood, it's quite possible that such an innocuous statement could be taken the wrong way.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 21, 2011, 11:14:29 am
I'm maybe not so against making sure that resignation is possible, since the button isn't always sitting there (IMHO it should be), I just don't think you should suggest it unbidden.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on June 21, 2011, 11:15:48 am
I feel like the issue of people not knowing about the resign button could be resolved by having the "end turn" button read "end turn/resign" before you've played anything on your turn.  That would be something for DougZ to do though, and I don't know if he's taking requests.

(Of course, the actual resign button would still need to appear separately to not kill misclicks.)

(And if people read the FAQ, they'd know, but people don't really do that any more, do they?)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on June 21, 2011, 11:19:19 am
Email DougZ if you want something changed. He says it's fine for you to do so in the FAQ. I've emailed him twice in the past to suggest/recommend changes to the isotropic interface and in both cases the changes were implemented within a week or two. I have no idea if my emails influenced the changes or if there were being worked on anyway, but they happened.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Death to Sea Hags on June 21, 2011, 12:12:43 pm
Maybe just a headline in the lobby, or broadcast at the start of the game in the chat box would help.  It would be more impersonal, and would come at a less sensitive moment.  People are more likely to take offense if the resignation suggestion comes from the winner, at the end of the game when the loser may be feeling frustrated.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: theory on June 21, 2011, 12:36:23 pm
Clearly Isotropic should just automatically prompt you once you are sufficiently far behind.


"You look like you're really crapping the bed in this game.  You should probably just resign."
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Stoc on June 21, 2011, 01:21:43 pm
Clearly Isotropic should just automatically prompt you once you are sufficiently far behind.


"You look like you're really crapping the bed in this game.  You should probably just resign."
This made me spit out my water. :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on June 21, 2011, 01:45:09 pm
"You look like you're trying to win, and failing.  Would you like to resign?"

(http://blogs.zdnet.com/images/clippy.gif)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Axe Knight on June 21, 2011, 03:16:12 pm
It could let you know if it's impossible to win though.  "There aren't enough Victory Cards in the deck for you to win.  Resign?" 
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Amaranth on June 22, 2011, 01:23:01 pm
I'd just like to give a shoutout to zert for his good sportsmanship the other day. I played Throne Room on Masquerade, misclicked and accidentally sent him a Bridge, and he very kindly gave it back to me when it went off the second time. I'd been annoyed by a couple of people on isotropic recently and it's nice to see something like that.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: caesuric on June 23, 2011, 01:43:26 am
I think I'm especially unfond of people who end games with things like "gg 5/2" and then immediately hit exit.  Yes, Dominion has a random number generator.  It screws you sometimes, no doubt about it.  I'll bet these same people don't say "gg 5/2" when they win a game where the situation is reversed.

It strikes me as extremely impolite to complain about your luck to strangers on isotropic in anything but the most diplomatic terms.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: kn1tt3r on June 23, 2011, 06:12:54 am
Have you considered some sort of black list (maybe just open for this forum) for impolite/disrispectful/offensive players?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on June 23, 2011, 07:22:00 am
Public blacklists are too easily abused.  If you play with someone who offends you too much just make a note of it on your own personal blacklist.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: kn1tt3r on June 23, 2011, 08:14:54 am
That's what I thought, ty.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on June 23, 2011, 10:22:34 am
I'd love to see some way to implement a personal "ignore" list on isotropic, that would ignore someone's logged in account, not necessarily just their name that they're using since that's so easily changed. 

I hate to pester him for features though, for something freely given away, it's absolutely fantastic already.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Superdad on June 23, 2011, 04:01:37 pm
I'm new to online dominion, and fairly new to dominion in general. I have a long history of extremely competitive Magic the Gathering, WOW TCG, WoW online, SC, SC2, and League of Legends.

While I cannot comment on the decline (since I'm new), I can absolutely say that the dominion community is hands-down, clear-cut, the best and most polite community of any of the above games.

In a north american championship for MTG, an opponent literally spat at me, because I beat him on turn 1 with a combo deck. Literally spat on me. I've had opponents shuffle my deck and purposefully drop one card from my deck on the floor, then call a judge to report my deck for being under 60 cards.

In WoW online, I had one of my kids fall down 2 flights of stairs during a raid fight. I even had the curtosy of typing "emergency afk" before I left the keyboard. I was kicked from the guild for afk'ing on a boss fight, and called various insulting names.

League of Legends takes the cake though. Play League of Legends for 1 week and you will be shocked at the behaviour of the people playing that game (LOL is at the opposite side of the spectrum of the community-civility chart). In league of legends, someone else will make a critical error, then absolutely FLAME you for not bailing them out (say, if they intiate a 1v5 fight), then literally quit a game at the 30 minute mark, and leave their entire team helpless and in a state where victory is impossible. I've never seen a worse community in my life, so to me, Dominion is an absolute haven of civility.

Someone will die ONCE and some moron on your team will literally berrate him for 45 minutes calling him a retard non-stop. It's truly unbelievable to see people treating eachother the way they do on that game.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Personman on June 23, 2011, 04:22:40 pm
(LOL is at the opposite side of the spectrum of the community-civility chart)

But, but, Dreamhack was so awesome! Even HotShot was polite! :P
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Superdad on June 23, 2011, 04:31:24 pm
That's because he lost-out so early and didn't have anything else to do! haha
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ImperialStout on June 23, 2011, 04:53:28 pm
I would echo Superdad's comment; the Isotropic community is anomalously polite.  I strongly suspect (and have suspected for some time) that this is because the community grew organically from hardcore fans of a tabletop games, and tabletop gamers tend to socialize in a manner fundamentally different than those who communicate primarily or exclusively via the internet.  I.e. You kind of have to be polite or your gaming group stops inviting you over to their house.

Edit:  Of course this wouldn't explain why so many unpleasant types play Magic or Warhammer.  OK, maybe my theory has a few holes in it.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Superdad on June 23, 2011, 05:04:47 pm
I'll be completely blunt and to the point. i believe this community is kinder, simply because the average age of the player-base is higher.

This isn't a get-off-my-lawn statement coming from an old man. I've known tons of very polite, well-behaved young teenagers... but I think the internet age (faceless, anonymous social interactions) are breeding inpolite behaviour in the younger generation.

I grew up in an age where if you were in a social atmosphere with someone and called them a retard, you got your bell-rung. These days, with anonymous internet, and non face to face social interactions, there's no physical pain as a consequence of being a jerk to someone.

I've noticed a VERY strong correlation between age and civility in every game I've played, and MTG, LOL and WoW are probably all the worst communities. It's my opinion (and I'm very possibly completely out to lunch) that age has a huge factor to this.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ImperialStout on June 23, 2011, 05:12:22 pm
Very plausible!  In fact, the more I consider it, the more correct it seems.  The worst offenders (Counterstrike, DOTA-type games) all have very young average users.  Although I suspect that the age-civility linkage is less a generational thing (I know some baby boomers who are real pieces of work) and more a matter of teenagers being profoundly insecure, and consequently viewing online interactions in a more combative way.  Also young people tend to put a lot more weight in online interactions (particularly those who spend the majority of their time online) and older people tend to have more going on and so tend to care less -- although I realize that I am generalizing with abandon here and that there will be many exceptions.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: chwhite on June 23, 2011, 05:18:26 pm
I'll be completely blunt and to the point. i believe this community is kinder, simply because the average age of the player-base is higher.

This isn't a get-off-my-lawn statement coming from an old man. I've known tons of very polite, well-behaved young teenagers... but I think the internet age (faceless, anonymous social interactions) are breeding inpolite behaviour in the younger generation.

I grew up in an age where if you were in a social atmosphere with someone and called them a retard, you got your bell-rung. These days, with anonymous internet, and non face to face social interactions, there's no physical pain as a consequence of being a jerk to someone.

I've noticed a VERY strong correlation between age and civility in every game I've played, and MTG, LOL and WoW are probably all the worst communities. It's my opinion (and I'm very possibly completely out to lunch) that age has a huge factor to this.

Agree 100% that the higher age of the boardgame community (and, obviously by extension, Dominion players) is the main factor here.  And this is coming from someone who's probably quite a bit younger than you.

I do think, though, that its more an age than a generation thing- that most folks can be kinda rude and inconsiderate when they're young, but then just mellow and mature as they grow older.  I've seen increased politeness among my peers as they've gone from high school to college and post-college, and I know for a fact I've improved during that time as well (for reference, I'm in my mid-20s). 
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Teproc on June 24, 2011, 07:05:31 am
I'll be completely blunt and to the point. i believe this community is kinder, simply because the average age of the player-base is higher.

This isn't a get-off-my-lawn statement coming from an old man. I've known tons of very polite, well-behaved young teenagers... but I think the internet age (faceless, anonymous social interactions) are breeding inpolite behaviour in the younger generation.

I grew up in an age where if you were in a social atmosphere with someone and called them a retard, you got your bell-rung. These days, with anonymous internet, and non face to face social interactions, there's no physical pain as a consequence of being a jerk to someone.

I've noticed a VERY strong correlation between age and civility in every game I've played, and MTG, LOL and WoW are probably all the worst communities. It's my opinion (and I'm very possibly completely out to lunch) that age has a huge factor to this.

As a 18-year old, I completely agree. That being said, while there certainly is a generation effect, I also agree with chwhite that it's probably mainly a question of age rather than one of generation.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on June 24, 2011, 08:45:36 am
The worst offenders (Counterstrike, DOTA-type games) all have very young average users.

Absolute truth!

When I played Counter-Strike, I eventually joined a group called Crusty Old Fossil Rockers. The requirement was that you had to be at least 25 (kind of sad when that's a cut-off age for old people in online games). The main requirement was that you had to act your age. The COFR servers were very pleasant to play in. Not only were players civil, but the server also allowed friendly fire, which forced players to consider the consequences of their actions (for those who don't know, this means that you could accidentally kill your teammates with an errant shot). Those were some of my best games, and any time I went to a public server, I was appalled at some of the behavior there. It was also a reminder that the 25-year limit was fairly arbitrary.

I haven't spent as much time on Isotropic lately, but I do recall that it has been polite. I've heard the horror stories of asshat players, which I have had the fortune of not running into. Even the best of places will have their bad apples.

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Death to Sea Hags on June 24, 2011, 10:05:00 am
Absolute truth!

When I played Counter-Strike, I eventually joined a group called Crusty Old Fossil Rockers. The requirement was that you had to be at least 25 (kind of sad when that's a cut-off age for old people in online games). The main requirement was that you had to act your age. The COFR servers were very pleasant to play in. Not only were players civil, but the server also allowed friendly fire, which forced players to consider the consequences of their actions (for those who don't know, this means that you could accidentally kill your teammates with an errant shot). Those were some of my best games, and any time I went to a public server, I was appalled at some of the behavior there. It was also a reminder that the 25-year limit was fairly arbitrary.

Not as arbitrary as you think. 

At What Age Is the Human Brain Fully Developed? (http://www.ehow.com/facts_6371486_age-human-brain-fully-developed_.html)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on June 24, 2011, 10:42:00 am
The difference in politeness between most (online) game communities and isotropic is indeed huge.

But what makes it impressive to me is that the in-general good behavior here happens without any moderation, or mechanism for banning a player in place at all (or even getting a bad reputation, since you can change your name easily and anonymously).  Which tells me that it's just this simply this group's nature to act like they're over 12, and not some fear of any consequences.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: timchen on June 24, 2011, 12:27:45 pm
It's interesting to see people have so many different opinions on this issue, even among the most experienced players!

I am most inclined to what guided said. I always put "hf+gl" and "gg" at the start and the end of any game, sometimes even after noticing that my opponent has already left.

I think manners are important. Typing a few letters before  and after the game will not cost anything, and shows both respect and good will. On the other hand, a wordless game feels worse when you are hit by the bad luck.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Axe Knight on June 24, 2011, 12:56:52 pm
I'm sad to see us already going in the, "Well, in my day, it was like this..." direction...

Isotropic is going to bring all kinds of players from many different cultures with all different mores and outlooks who are collectively much different than you.  We can sit here and try to speculate on why this is, and write etiquette rules, etc., etc. but at the end of the day, you just can't let it bother you.  (I work in a job where I deal every day with the Federal Government and the military.  You want some serious, Grade A, first-class a-holes...?)  I just go on, play, and if someone wants to be a dick, they'll be a dick.  The only person who can get you bent out of shape is yourself.  For the most part, my opponents' words don't change my record, and whatever they say has no bearing on what I'm really there for: to get better at Dominion. 

Now, I'm NOT talking about things that affect the outcome.  I know in team games, there's opportunities for kingmaking, and situations like asking your opponent not to boot you because you're at work and may get a call, they agree...and then they do it anyway (as I've had happen).  I'm more talking about people getting offended when they don't get a "gg" or "gl" or "hf" or resorting to name calling/trash talking/stalling when the situation is hopeless.

"I've seen your games, you got lucky." 
"There's a reason I'm 20 levels higher than you." 
"Well, I guess I'll just wait for you to boot me so that way it looks like I got disconnected."

That's their problem.  They failed, and they're making a miserable attempt at compensating.  Hopefully, they can implement some form of ignore list, or come up with ways to discourage this type of behavior.  But in the meantime, why waste the energy over the behavior of others (that doesn't matter) that we can't control? 

For the record, when I enter a game, I simply say, "hi."  I leave it up to them where things go next. 

In a north american championship for MTG, an opponent literally spat at me, because I beat him on turn 1 with a combo deck. Literally spat on me. I've had opponents shuffle my deck and purposefully drop one card from my deck on the floor, then call a judge to report my deck for being under 60 cards.

In WoW online, I had one of my kids fall down 2 flights of stairs during a raid fight. I even had the curtosy of typing "emergency afk" before I left the keyboard. I was kicked from the guild for afk'ing on a boss fight, and called various insulting names.

Someone will die ONCE and some moron on your team will literally berrate him for 45 minutes calling him a retard non-stop. It's truly unbelievable to see people treating eachother the way they do on that game.

I'm very, very sorry to hear all this.  I think part of the reason that you don't see this stuff on isotropic is because there's really no opportunity for it, and I think Dominion tends to attract a certain type of person who's fine with a game that doesn't involve the possibility of backstabbing, trading, or having your team let you down.  There's some hardcore gamers I know who don't play Dominion because, well, you can't play like a dick and have it benefit you!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: fp on June 24, 2011, 01:57:34 pm
A lot of arguments and disagreements come when people speculate on others' motives.  We tend to ascribe negative motives more readily to others than to ourselves.

Here, if you're really upset at what your opponent is doing and you are convinced that he is deliberately trying to make you suffer, it seems like you have a nice solution to this problem: the resign button.  The fact that you don't use it implies that you believe you have some small chance of success, in which case his play is more than justified and you should not ascribe him such malevolent motives.

Sorry, have been away (literally no computer) for the past week, and this justifies a

"+1  :D"
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: spetznaz on June 24, 2011, 05:18:45 pm
I think isotropic is a very polite community. I play other games as well, mostly wow tcg on magic workstation, and to call the opponents there rude is a very nice way of putting it. But unfortunately there's a few players that doesn't understand civility... just had this a moment ago.

Me: gg
Opponent: very luvky boy
Me: ?
Opponent: normally i win
Me: ??
Opponent: lucky
Me: why?
Opponent: enjoy this moment
Opponent has returned to the lobby.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on June 24, 2011, 07:37:21 pm
Opponent: normally i win

Heh, I don't think this person realized what this statement implies. If he "normally wins" and you arrived with the minority, then that must mean you're better than him. *grin*

Some people just don't realize that 100% of games generally won't be won--not if you face any experienced, competent opponent. And even a newbie can win. That still doesn't excuse this guy's behavior, though.

If someone accuses me of being lucky, I acknowledge it. Sure, I had luck on my side. I easily could have had the worst hands ever, but I didn't.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Graystripe77 on June 24, 2011, 07:43:04 pm
I think isotropic is a very polite community. I play other games as well, mostly wow tcg on magic workstation, and to call the opponents there rude is a very nice way of putting it. But unfortunately there's a few players that doesn't understand civility... just had this a moment ago.

Me: gg
Opponent: very luvky boy
Me: ?
Opponent: normally i win
Me: ??
Opponent: lucky
Me: why?
Opponent: enjoy this moment
Opponent has returned to the lobby.

I've had the EXACT conversation before, what was the guy's name?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Teproc on June 24, 2011, 08:10:44 pm
I think isotropic is a very polite community. I play other games as well, mostly wow tcg on magic workstation, and to call the opponents there rude is a very nice way of putting it. But unfortunately there's a few players that doesn't understand civility... just had this a moment ago.

Me: gg
Opponent: very luvky boy
Me: ?
Opponent: normally i win
Me: ??
Opponent: lucky
Me: why?
Opponent: enjoy this moment
Opponent has returned to the lobby.

I've had the EXACT conversation before, what was the guy's name?

I've had that conversation too, possibly with the same guy, but I don't think we should call people being sore losers on this forum, because everybody can get frustrated. I generally wouldn't argue who got lucky or did not because it's pointless, but when you're playing a very frustrating game, sometimes you just do it, even if doesn't serve any purpose and is mostly annoying to the opponent. I don't think Isotropic really needs a black list.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: guided on June 24, 2011, 08:59:11 pm
Actually I would say somebody who says "enjoy this moment" to multiple people deserves to be called out by name :P

I have a sore-loser problem at times myself that I'm a little ashamed of--mostly complaining about really bad draws when they happen--but I don't go out of my way to belittle my opponent!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: spetznaz on June 25, 2011, 02:22:11 am
I've had the EXACT conversation before, what was the guy's name?

I don't like to give out names, that's not civil. And if there would be a list of "rude" players, they can just change names. I was just very surprised with the comment. If someone turns a game around and squeezes out a win when I have the better deck, it's almost never just luck. I give them a gg and a well played with a smiley and try to ask for a rematch
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Amaranth on June 25, 2011, 07:40:31 am
It's one thing to complain about your own bad draws (and I've definitely experienced some bad draws), but saying the other player got lucky is rude because it's putting down their skill. Unless it's like that time I got the 5/2 split and was able to open with Hamlet + Torturer. That was lucky.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: theory on June 25, 2011, 12:35:23 pm
People tend to overestimate their opponents' good luck and their own bad luck, and underestimate their opponents' bad luck and their own good luck.

It's very obvious when you draw two clashing terminals, but it's not as obvious when it happens to your opponent, since you only see him play one of them.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: def on June 25, 2011, 01:16:06 pm
People tend to overestimate their opponents' good luck and their own bad luck, and underestimate their opponents' bad luck and their own good luck.

Yeah. The human brain tends to put one bad experience over nine good or normal experiences, e.g. price changes - when they drop, it's good, we are happy for a moment and that's it. If they rise, most people get more angry than they were happy in the first case. So people get the impression, that everything is getting more expensive, which is strictly not true.

This is even more true for something that happens with a very small probability. I remember me getting upset this one time where my opponent managed to have a curse in his hand three times in a row when I was playing a mountebank, him having 30 cards and 2 curses in his deck. But I don't remember the twenty times where my mountebanks were successful.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: krawhitham on June 26, 2011, 06:08:13 am
People tend to overestimate their opponents' good luck and their own bad luck, and underestimate their opponents' bad luck and their own good luck.

It's very obvious when you draw two clashing terminals, but it's not as obvious when it happens to your opponent, since you only see him play one of them.

I actually go out of my way to acknowledge when I have been lucky.

Luck is a factor in Dominion but in the long run better players win.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rls22 on June 26, 2011, 02:56:18 pm
I also try to acknowledge when luck was a big factor in my win (particularly in the opening -- if I open 5/2 on a board with Witch or something).  And I never complain about my opponent's good luck -- that's totally rude.

One thing I've noticed in the past week or two (since this discussion started) is that I've had a lot more people resign on me.  A very noticeable difference in the number of people doing so, I think.  Most of them were totally legitimate (really far behind, the game wasn't close to being over), but I did have one person resign when there was only one turn left in the game (fast game, last pile was a $3, so presumably he could have ended it instead of resigning, and if not, I could have done so with one short turn).  That one fell into my "kind of annoying" category.  And today, someone resigned with a gg when I thought the outcome of the game was still very much up in the air, which I thought was weird.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Personman on June 26, 2011, 03:15:12 pm
And today, someone resigned with a gg when I thought the outcome of the game was still very much up in the air, which I thought was weird.

One thing to keep in mind is that sometimes real life intrudes, and you have to go deal with something immediately, with no time to type and explain. Resigning and mashing out gg is about as polite as you could possibly be under such circumstances :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Amaranth on June 26, 2011, 07:15:43 pm
People tend to overestimate their opponents' good luck and their own bad luck, and underestimate their opponents' bad luck and their own good luck.

It's very obvious when you draw two clashing terminals, but it's not as obvious when it happens to your opponent, since you only see him play one of them.
This is definitely the case, although the time I was thinking of was when on one pass through a deck, I drew two hands without Council Rooms, followed by a hand with 4 of them (needless to say, the other card wasn't a Village). I submit that that's a legitimate bad draw.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 26, 2011, 08:51:46 pm
People tend to overestimate their opponents' good luck and their own bad luck, and underestimate their opponents' bad luck and their own good luck.

It's very obvious when you draw two clashing terminals, but it's not as obvious when it happens to your opponent, since you only see him play one of them.
Hmmm, sometimes true, sometimes not. I missed when you turn-5ed your chapel against me when I did the same (and now I wonder how I wasn't paying so much attention), but I didn't realize how much the luck was on your side in the Amb/Amb v Amb/Silver game posted now in the game reports section until far afterwards.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: hughes on June 26, 2011, 09:48:05 pm
I also try to acknowledge when luck was a big factor in my win (particularly in the opening -- if I open 5/2 on a board with Witch or something).  And I never complain about my opponent's good luck -- that's totally rude.


This happened to me today after I locked down my opponent in a ghost ship/torturer deal.  I had two of each and some villages and he claimed I was 'super lucky' and rage quit on me.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: chwhite on June 26, 2011, 11:59:18 pm
The fact that you don't use it implies that you believe you have some small chance of success

This is a core assumption.  But its normative - not descriptive.  The vast majority of players do not resign the instant they know a game is lost.  As I said, look at how often you get to 43 points in a standard game but the other player doesn't resign on their next turn.

I completely agree that if a game is at all in doubt, play on.  If you want to save for a mega-turn, do it.  If you need to slog on until you've exhausted three piles, okay.  And maybe you just don't see the third pile - happens.  People LIKE to play to the end of a game, and self-evidently the vast majority of the players on Isotropic think it's enjoyable and courteous to do so.  I just think taking advantage of that courtesy is wrong.
The complaint was that in an obviously won position, the other person deliberately extends the game (e.g. buys a Duchy instead of the last Province, or doesn't end the third pile).

But if you are in that situation, you are also in a position to have resigned in an obviously lost position.  So I have no sympathy for your complaint, because you chose to bring it upon yourself by choosing not to resign.

Here's an interesting etiquette question:  Say there's a game where one player is using a point counter (or is just able to calculate it in their head easily) and the other isn't.  The player who isn't is ahead by enough that they could win by ending on piles, or last Province, or whatever.  And, obviously, the other player, who has a counter, knows this.  But if it's somewhat close, then it's entirely possible that the player who is ahead may not actually realize this and buy that Duchy because they think they need to catch up. 

What then? 

I ask because I'm pretty sure there have been times where I've been guilty of doing such a thing, because I don't generally use point counters and can sometimes lose track of the non-Province buys. 
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on June 27, 2011, 04:58:42 am
Well then the player with the point counter can either resign, or play on and try to turn it around. That has nothing to do with etiquette and isn't really an interesting question either =/
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Stoc on June 27, 2011, 12:05:30 pm
People tend to overestimate their opponents' good luck and their own bad luck, and underestimate their opponents' bad luck and their own good luck.

It's very obvious when you draw two clashing terminals, but it's not as obvious when it happens to your opponent, since you only see him play one of them.
Just yesterday, I had the following happen in a Colony game with KC and Mountebank.

So, this guy get's 5/2 and buys Mountebank on the first turn:
19:15 Stoc: hi, gl
19:15 Player2: hi
19:16 Stoc: ugh
19:16 Player2: yea
19:16 Player2: turn 1 kill
19:16 Stoc: I wish that box for same starting hands worked in automatch :)
19:16 Player2: yup

Then, I get my KC before him:
19:18 Player2: that was pretty ulcky
19:18 Stoc: yeah, guess it works both ways
19:18 Stoc: really the more I play, the more games I see decided by luck. Unless there's major skill dif

Then, the next shuffle, I draw my KC and Mountebank together:
19:20 Stoc: for example...
19:21 Player2 has returned to the lobby. (resigned)


I also had another guy berate me on my "totally undeserved win" due to the fact I had pulled Ambassador out of the Black Market before he rage quit.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110625-164457-2ada0f08.html (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110625-164457-2ada0f08.html)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: quartz on June 27, 2011, 01:08:07 pm
As a new player both on isotropic and as someone who's learned how to play this game only 2 weeks ago, this website makes me want to never play again.

1. Playing with someone around 20 levels below you who says they're learning and then making fun of them for losing is not cool. Making fun of anyone for losing isn't cool.

2. After the person lost with something like 60 to -4, saying "gg" just makes them upset. It wasn't a good game *for me*. Watching you play solitaire with your 6 possession cards is not fun. Just leave. Your gg sounds like you're just rubbing it in.

3. When they ask questions because they're unfamiliar with the interface or with some special cards, replying with "get f***ed" is not cool either.

This game seems like a fun game, but the rudeness just makes me want to quit. Why would anyone want to make the experience horrible for new players? What's the point of that?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rrenaud on June 27, 2011, 01:24:51 pm
I don't think that any of the posters here encourage either being assholes to new players who don't understand the interface or making fun of players for losing. 

I am one of the minority players who only says gg after actually good games, but saying gg isn't intended to antagonize in any case.

Personally, I encourage you to simply say that you've lost and leave the game in resignation if you are in a hopeless situation (opp possesses you 6x is likely to qualify).
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rls22 on June 27, 2011, 01:31:30 pm
Sounds like you have had some not great experiences, quartz.  I do think they're a pretty rare occurrence on isotropic, though.  I've only had two flat out rude people, and they were both fairly early on after I started playing (one person mocked me for losing, the other called me a f*ggot after I won). 

On the "gg" after a trouncing thing...  I don't know.  As folks have said above in this thread, "gg" is basically the equivalent of "goodbye" on isotropic.  If it was truly a good game, people will usually make some extra comment about it (e.g., "well played").  So, I wouldn't be too offended by it.  Besides, from the winning player's perspective, what are they supposed to say instead of gg?  Occasionally (very occasionally), I've said something like "sorry that was so ugly", if my strategy was particularly attack-heavy or something.  But, since tone is lost in text, it's pretty tough to say anything else without sounding like you're gloating. 
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on June 27, 2011, 01:36:49 pm
2. After the person lost with something like 60 to -4, saying "gg" just makes them upset. It wasn't a good game *for me*. Watching you play solitaire with your 6 possession cards is not fun. Just leave. Your gg sounds like you're just rubbing it in.

I just never take "gg" literally. I know it means "good game," but it's so overused that I don't even take it to mean that. As others have stated, it's a standard closing message nowadays.

I personally hate "gg." I won't begrudge someone for using it, but I don't ever take it literally. For that reason, I never use it myself. I'll say anything else but "gg." If it was a tight match, I'll say, "That was a close one." If I got skunked, I'll say, "Nicely played." 

As for the other points, you described some first-class dickery there. I wouldn't want to play with those people either. Fortunately, I think those people are in the minority on Isotropic.

I just got back on Isotropic after a hiatus. I played a couple of games with pleasant enjoyable opponents. It felt good, though I did accidentally make myself to be the jerk because I forgot how to view VP chips and the point tracker was disabled. One opponent got his Goons engine going before I could get mine, so I overcompensated when my engine finally took off. He pointed out that I could have ended the game with a sure victory way earlier. I didn't catch the final score, but I'm sure he was right.

So, sorry, I ended up being "that" guy. I brushed up on my Isotropic FAQ so I won't do that again.

Edit: Holy crap! I just looked at Council Room and saw that I won that game 57 to 20 to 13. I really need to focus on counting points. It's one thing to lose a game because I haven't been paying attention, but now I can see why my opponent was miffed at how long I dragged the game out. 
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: quartz on June 27, 2011, 02:43:13 pm
Thanks for your responses guys. It's nice to hear that these aren't "normal" situations on isotropic.

Personally, I encourage you to simply say that you've lost and leave the game in resignation if you are in a hopeless situation (opp possesses you 6x is likely to qualify).

I found this feature to be great and one of the main reasons I chose isotropic over brettspielwelt. Most of the time I like watching how a good player plays and what they're buying, etc. It's a good way to learn I think. I know that learning means I'll be losing a lot. I just don't like some people acting like they were never noobs at anything =( I guess reaction to "gg" is reaction to negative experiences in general.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: dmk on June 27, 2011, 02:46:43 pm
As a new player both on isotropic and as someone who's learned how to play this game only 2 weeks ago, this website makes me want to never play again.

1. Playing with someone around 20 levels below you who says they're learning and then making fun of them for losing is not cool. Making fun of anyone for losing isn't cool.

2. After the person lost with something like 60 to -4, saying "gg" just makes them upset. It wasn't a good game *for me*. Watching you play solitaire with your 6 possession cards is not fun. Just leave. Your gg sounds like you're just rubbing it in.

3. When they ask questions because they're unfamiliar with the interface or with some special cards, replying with "get f***ed" is not cool either.

This game seems like a fun game, but the rudeness just makes me want to quit. Why would anyone want to make the experience horrible for new players? What's the point of that?

1) i believe those types of people are in the minority from the little i've played so far
2) gg is kind of just a habit that ppl type out. in a lot of games its considered bad manners to *not* say gg after a game. so don't take those personally
3) again, see 1

i'm still learning the newest 3 sets, i only own base/intrigue/seaside live. so i bias selection toward those 3 sets and when the game starts i usually say that i'm somewhat unfamiliar with some cards and i'll take a little longer on my turns. usually its met with a "no problem" and we're on our way.

i hope that the experience you described doesn't happen often - i don't think its the norm

i trust that if you find someone that regularly posts here and asked them for a game/assistance w/ some cards as you went, they'd be more than happy to do so
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Personman on June 27, 2011, 04:12:31 pm
Quartz, if you want some games that are guaranteed to be free of that kind of unpleasantness, keep an eye out for any of the Isotropic names you see on this forum -- I'm sure we'd all be glad to play a couple civil games with you, and we're probably more likely than average to be willing to discuss the game during/after if that's something you're interested in.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ImperialStout on June 28, 2011, 12:41:41 am
Just to add to the "gg is not gloating" point, the first gaming I ever did was tournament and club chess, where not shaking your opponent's hand after a game (be it a hard fought stalemate or a forced mate in the opening) is akin to spitting in your opponent's eye.  For me, saying gg is the analog to the chess handshake, and it feels unnatural not to type it regardless of how the game actually went.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Big Cheesesteak on June 29, 2011, 04:14:44 pm
My isotropic experience has been mostly positive, with a few notable exceptions. I have had a couple of (low ranked) opponents accuse of cheating while in the midst of stomping them. I suppose this was because their understanding of the game hadn't progressed to the point where they would see that deck thinning combined with aggressive buying of draw chain cards and control of the shuffle makes it extremely unlikely that you could _fail_ to draw your deck every turn. If they had been reasonable and stuck around I could have maybe explained this to them, but they rage quit without giving me the opportunity.

I don't mind a little soft whining about luck, but I did have one opponent, who is ranked high enough to know better, tell me my deck sucked and that they knew more about Dominion than I do and that I was getting insanely lucky. That last part might have been true, but last I checked I was still ranked 7 levels higher than that person. So again, fine, point out that I'm getting lucky ...it happens. Try not to be a jerk though.

Every time I get the urge to copy and paste the chat logs to create a wall of shame post, I take a deep breath and remember that everyone has bad days, it's just a game, time to move on.

I do wish there was a private ban button, or the like, so that I could have an easier time keeping track of the few people I want to avoid. Just something that would flag them so I don't get automatched with them, or maybe automatically rejects all game proposals, or even just puts a visual cue next to their name so that I can remember that this person was once a serious jerk to me.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Davio on June 29, 2011, 04:23:16 pm
Who's out of line, me (Davio) or Liver? You decide...

I'll copy the head of the game log to show what kind of game it was.

Davio wins!
All but one player has resigned.

cards in supply: Bank, Colony, Farming Village, Hoard, Lookout, Market, Mine, Minion, Platinum, Saboteur, Torturer, and Warehouse
Default card selection was used.
----------------------

#1 Davio: 71 points (7 Colonies and an Estate); 23 turns
       opening: nothing / Torturer
       [27 cards] 5 Farming Villages, 4 Markets, 3 Torturers, 1 Bank, 1 Lookout, 3 Coppers, 1 Gold, 1 Platinum, 1 Estate, 7 Colonies

#2 liver: resigned (1st); 23 turns
       opening: Silver / Farming Village
       [36 cards] 5 Farming Villages, 3 Markets, 2 Banks, 1 Lookout, 1 Torturer, 6 Coppers, 1 Silver, 1 Gold, 1 Platinum, 7 Estates, 8 Curses

21:51 Davio: gl

--> I was lucky enough to open 5/2 and buy a Torturer straight away to start menacing. I don't like to be hassled myself and if I feel the game balance has already shifted too much in my opponent's favor, I usually just resign and say GG, no need to drag it along for both of us. A lot of games between similar skilled opponents are just shuffle luck races...

21:52 liver: big fan of the curse, huh
21:53 liver: i'll just gain all the curses
21:53 liver: and trash em
21:53 liver: big waste of both our time
21:56 liver: such a stupid strategy
21:56 Davio: you play yours, i play mine

--> I thought replying would only add fuel to the fire, but I couldn't resist, I tried to be somewhat courteous.

21:56 liver: problem is, yours annoys people
21:57 liver: for no reason
21:57 Davio: not really
21:57 liver: there, now we can play --> Curses are gone
21:59 liver: tough choice
21:59 liver: give me a second to decide
22:00 Davio: well, i play it for the card draw
22:00 Davio: i don't care that the curses have run out

--> Trying to explain myself, don't know why. It's a shame you still have to press "Gain a Curse in hand" when you are tortured and all Curses are gone, but I guess in some rare cases (Library) you would still willingly discard 2 cards

22:00 liver: u've been annoying for 10 mins
22:00 liver: i'll be annoying now
22:01 Davio: go ahead
22:01 liver: oh i am

--> Now he starts stalling every turn; I just wait and try to finish the game.

22:03 liver: boy, so many fun options
22:04 liver: fucken shit dude
22:04 liver: do me a favor and resign --> ???
22:04 Davio: i'll just buy all the colonies
22:05 liver: i'm letting you win, to prove i dont give a shit
22:05 liver: i play the game cuz its fun --> ORLY?
22:05 liver: so when douchebags play it annoying
22:05 liver: shows me how gay you are
22:09 liver: dont ever play me again. idiot.
22:10 Davio: don't worry --> Won't happen anytime soon
22:10 liver has returned to the lobby. --> He finally resigns


I'm sure I have been somewhat rude many times and I often just feel ashamed afterwards, but never like this.

How about a blacklist on Isotropic?

I also very much support the "Identical Starting Hands in AutoMatch" option.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: quartz on June 29, 2011, 04:45:09 pm

I don't mind a little soft whining about luck, but I did have one opponent, who is ranked high enough to know better, tell me my deck sucked and that they knew more about Dominion than I do and that I was getting insanely lucky. That last part might have been true, but last I checked I was still ranked 7 levels higher than that person. So again, fine, point out that I'm getting lucky ...it happens. Try not to be a jerk though.

Whining about luck... yeah luck is a big part of this game. But I've now had about 3 opponents who're clearly winning and I get one lucky draw where I make them discard and they start whining in chat and stuff. One's winning and complaining that even though I have 10 curses and can't do anything for turns and I get *one* lucky turn. Pointing out that I'm "getting lucky" when they're crushing me completely... what can I say.

I only wish I could find people to play with me in RL because, as much as this game looks interesting, I have to give it up because getting trolled by your opponents is just not my idea of "hf". Even if they're minority on the site, it's upsetting enough to just not bother. Maybe if the site had some sort of a blacklist option then it would work better.

=(
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 29, 2011, 09:12:06 pm
I will note that I've noticed an uptick in cursing recently. This bugs me because I'd like to think that this game is family-friendly, but 2% of the people clearly make the site not :/
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on June 30, 2011, 10:30:08 am
2. After the person lost with something like 60 to -4, saying "gg" just makes them upset. It wasn't a good game *for me*. Watching you play solitaire with your 6 possession cards is not fun. Just leave. Your gg sounds like you're just rubbing it in.

That one gets to me too...  If I get totally smashed by someone, and then get a "gg", that's just offensive.  A good game is one where each (or at least two) players had a chance.

If I beat someone that badly, To try and maintain a friendly environment, I'll tell them something like "thanks for the game", instead of trying to rub it in by pretending it was "good".   Even though my opponent is probably cursing at me from behind their screen.  (Unless my opponent is acting like a jerk about it, then I have no problem giving him a "gg" after beating him 90 to 4)

As for being a new player, there are a lot of people on here who are very polite and helpful.  They've taught me a lot.  i try to return the favor when I get matched with someone new and be as helpful and patient as possible.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 30, 2011, 10:51:56 am
Eh, but I've played some games that were blowouts pointwise like that, but totally up in the air until the last turn or two (usually from a big combo)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on June 30, 2011, 11:01:45 am
Eh, but I've played some games that were blowouts pointwise like that, but totally up in the air until the last turn or two (usually from a big combo)

In games like that I'd say both players had a chance :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Taco Lobster on June 30, 2011, 06:27:58 pm
I've got no problem taking my lumps, and if I lose -4 to 30, I'm not offended by someone saying gg.  If I'm the one giving the beatdown, I might wait for my opponent to say gg first.  Usually, they're out of the room before I can say gg anyway, so it's a moot point.  I do my best to say gg when I lose -4 to 30, but it can be hard - particularly if you spend most of the game under a ghost ship pin or on the receiving end of a torturer chain.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Nitsuj on July 01, 2011, 11:54:29 am
I'm not sure how you guys even have time to get a "GG" in.  A lot of players I play with just bail from the game almost immediately.

I try to type out my messages, instead of using the abbreviations - especially the initial greeting and a "good game" or "close one!" or a "thanks for the game" depending on if it was indeed a good game, indeed a close one, or indeed a blowout where they took a lot of punches but carried on to the end.

But usually, while I'm typing - they are going back to the lobby!  So, I hope they don't think I'm rude and ignoring them!

Yesterday, I did my typical greeting "Good luck, have fun" - and proceeded to play against someone and got a lucky "Possession" early, and proceeded to dominate him with it.  Everytime I possessed him, he had his possession in hand!  So, then he started chatting in a foreign language (I think it was Italian) and eventually quit.  I have no idea what he was saying, and BabelFish wasn't much good for translating it.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Elysium on July 01, 2011, 02:02:05 pm
I'm not sure how you guys even have time to get a "GG" in.  A lot of players I play with just bail from the game almost immediately.

You have to get your GG in fast, because then if they do quit without saying anything, your GG becomes a handy taunt that they will have to look at in their chatlog.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on July 01, 2011, 02:12:39 pm
I'm not sure how you guys even have time to get a "GG" in.  A lot of players I play with just bail from the game almost immediately.

If the other player leaves that quickly, then he's not interested in any post-game chatter, so there's no offense to give. A person has no right to be offended at me if he leaves before I could congratulate him.

And since over 99.9% of my chats are more than 2 letters, I'm not going to feel bad if someone leaves before I could finish typing, "well played."
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on July 01, 2011, 04:26:02 pm
Hah...  I just got automatched with someone who 9 turns in told me "play someone your own level maybe next time" and then rage quit...

As if I had any say in the automatch, and as if he was forced to accept the match.

So, I'm writing this to kill time while the timer runs out.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: hughes on July 02, 2011, 08:29:08 am
yay, we've been found by spambots
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Donald X. on July 02, 2011, 01:55:35 pm
So a good trick for stopping forum spambots is, require everyone to make one post in a particular subforum, before they can post in other forums.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Garion on July 04, 2011, 10:31:21 am
Your status is "up for post-game discussion and learning".

I set my status to the above today. Suddenly people were proposing games to me left and right, and were talking (in a friendly manner) both during and after the games. I had a good time :-)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Razzishi on July 06, 2011, 12:47:03 am
I had a quite interesting exchange with someone who was apparently not thrilled with their luck.

0:21 buddycthulhu: howdy
0:21 hatch coltraine: hello
0:25 hatch coltraine: jesus christ
0:25 hatch coltraine: how does it feel getting good shuffles?
0:26 hatch coltraine: because I wouldnt know
0:32 hatch coltraine: btw, where did you get the code?
0:32 buddycthulhu: what?
0:32 hatch coltraine: dont play stupid. the code

I end up finally managing to empty 3 piles after getting 2 do-nothing hands right before the last couple lines.  I then leave as he didn't seem particularly interested in civil discussion.  He then immediately proposes another game with me, and I accept thinking maybe he just wants a rematch.  Nope:

0:34 hatch coltraine: tell me where you got it
0:34 buddycthulhu: what?
0:34 hatch coltraine: if you wanna get kicked off isotropic, ask me "what" again
0:34 hatch coltraine: now where did you get it?
0:35 buddycthulhu: so I take it you think I'm cheating, or at least are going overboard complaining about your luck in the previous game
0:35 hatch coltraine: are you going to answer me?
0:37 hatch coltraine: or are you going to wait for the signal for me to resign?
0:37 buddycthulhu: so you didn't even want to play another game, you just want to "interrogate" me?
0:37 hatch coltraine: alright, then Rob will decide.
0:37 hatch coltraine has returned to the lobby.

His resignation timer had indeed come up, but I hadn't hit it.  He instead resigns without playing a card.  I don't even know what to imagine this person is trying to do, but it really frustrates me when people do bullshit like this.  Was he just thinking that he could scare some idiot into saying something they regretted?  It makes no sense, especially given that the guy is in the teens in level and so not just someone doing drive-by trolling.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: minced on July 06, 2011, 01:51:20 am
1:45 minced: hi gl
1:47 I love you: fckin rigged
1:49 I love you: youre so fucking lucky

... same old song. I apparently "rigged" the game by buying native villages (initially for the pseudo-trashing so i could cycle mountebank) over silver and buying minions when the other player bought silvers and spammed mountebank. I think it's the same guy, and he's just a colossal prick who would complain that a game of chess was rigged.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ImperialStout on July 06, 2011, 03:20:59 am
I enjoy how this thread has become a complaint-fest.  Allow me to join in!  I just had an opponent stay mute until I took more than 10 seconds to make a move at which point I got the marvelously eloquent "....", and then rage-quit at turn 11 or 12 when he was down 7 provinces to 0.  Everyday, I yearn for that blacklist a little more!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jack Rudd on July 06, 2011, 05:25:06 pm
I had a quite interesting exchange with someone who was apparently not thrilled with their luck.
A-ha-hum. I just looked through that game. Some of his decisions were... interesting, to say the least.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: jayarsea on July 06, 2011, 06:04:22 pm
1:45 minced: hi gl
1:47 I love you: fckin rigged
1:49 I love you: youre so fucking lucky

... same old song. I apparently "rigged" the game by buying native villages (initially for the pseudo-trashing so i could cycle mountebank) over silver and buying minions when the other player bought silvers and spammed mountebank. I think it's the same guy, and he's just a colossal prick who would complain that a game of chess was rigged.

I just had an experience with the same player:

18:00 I love you: never knew you could just buy those
18:00 jayarsea: yea
18:00 I love you: i hope you get cancer and die slow faggot

After buying a duchy and 3 curses [with a goons played] to empty the curse pile and win by one point.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Donald X. on July 06, 2011, 08:57:02 pm
This stuff perhaps seems less newsworthy when you realize you may be playing against kids.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jack Rudd on July 06, 2011, 09:04:21 pm
I've played Dominion against actual children in real life, and they've been unfailingly polite. (And rather good at picking up on things. "Oooh, Witch. That looks like a good card.")
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on July 06, 2011, 09:14:40 pm
This stuff perhaps seems less newsworthy when you realize you may be playing against kids.

Depends on whether you mean 10-year-olds or 22-year-olds as kids. If the former, some seems less newsworthy, but a lot of it is more concerning.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on July 06, 2011, 09:44:03 pm
I swear, I'm going to start making a list of people who just plain don't talk during a game.  At least acknowledge you're not a damned robot!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rls22 on July 06, 2011, 10:02:10 pm
Thanks for the warning on "I love you". I just declined a game with him....  Should be an easy one to remember not to play with.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: krawhitham on July 06, 2011, 10:10:21 pm
I swear, I'm going to start making a list of people who just plain don't talk during a game.  At least acknowledge you're not a damned robot!

Actually spam bots can talk.

I do know exactly what you mean though, sure I can understand you don't want a conversation but some form of "hello" and "goodbye" really isn't much to expect.

But then you have to remind yourself that it's not the end of the world. Insults and agressive behavior are more of a concern, I have not experienced any myself and it sounds like it is a tiny minority on Isotropic.

I think all we can do is keep being as polite as possible and just stay silent when someone starts the trash talk.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on July 08, 2011, 10:51:37 am
So here's another one:

9:44 The Kingslayer: wp idk why i didnt forge
9:44 WanderingWinder: gg
9:44 WanderingWinder: dunno
9:44 WanderingWinder: but
9:44 WanderingWinder: i think hoard was a pretty big problem here
9:45 The Kingslayer: i think your FACE was a pretty big problem
9:45 WanderingWinder: that's nice

As you can see, I'm trying to have a nice post-game strategy chat after winning, and we get stuff like this.
I do want to stress that this is rare on isotropic.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on July 08, 2011, 11:18:12 am
lol

Your mum/face jokes never get old.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on July 08, 2011, 02:40:28 pm
Your mum/face jokes never get old.

That's what your mom said.

/OK childishness over, sorry.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ShuffleNCut on July 09, 2011, 10:11:00 am
I chat a lot and I am always up for discussion during or after games.  I also complain a lot but I tell people to ignore me because I am a hardened and bitter person.  I never insult people and I always offer pre and post game salutations.

If someone wants to insult me, my mother, my play, or the president of Burundi I reserve the right to ignore their messages or even deny their game requests.  I will certainly not deny them their right to free speech.

In Poker the people who relentlessly spout off when things are going badly for them are my favorite table mates.  They essentially wear a sign over their head that lights up and flashes when they are on tilt.  I must admit that I have encouraged such tirades in the past.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Axe Knight on July 10, 2011, 09:44:36 pm
Someone today informed me that they "normally win" and that I'm a "lucky boy."  They were also a Level 1 player who happened to be about 120 games below .500.  I think the best policy, as I wrote in a long paragraph earlier in this thread, is: ignore them.  Some of it is thoroughly juvenile and rancorous, but...who cares in the end?  They obviously have flaws in their game and they're making up for it in a pitiful way.  It won't change the outcome.  Everyone I've played on isotropic who also posts on this forum is extremely civil and a pleasure to compete with, mainly because the people on this forum tend to have very solid games of some degree, and don't need to resort to personal attacks.

Also, I'd vote against posting the actual screen names of the people who have offended you on here...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on July 10, 2011, 10:03:47 pm
I see your point about posting screen names, and it's a concern, but if it's actually copy/pasting what they said, I don't have a problem. I mean, they said it.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Nitsuj on July 11, 2011, 03:41:22 pm
Someone today informed me that they "normally win" and that I'm a "lucky boy."  They were also a Level 1 player who happened to be about 120 games below .500.  I think the best policy, as I wrote in a long paragraph earlier in this thread, is: ignore them.  Some of it is thoroughly juvenile and rancorous, but...who cares in the end?  They obviously have flaws in their game and they're making up for it in a pitiful way.  It won't change the outcome.  Everyone I've played on isotropic who also posts on this forum is extremely civil and a pleasure to compete with, mainly because the people on this forum tend to have very solid games of some degree, and don't need to resort to personal attacks.

Also, I'd vote against posting the actual screen names of the people who have offended you on here...

I bumped into that guy once!  Exact same thing happened, then I went to CouncilRoom.com and saw that he wasn't just a Level 1 player who was just starting - he was a Level 1 player with an atrocious record.  It was at that point that I didn't give him any more thought.

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Graystripe77 on July 11, 2011, 09:15:37 pm
I've recieved the same kind of bull, but from a level 31!  I mean, you would think it would only be a little something, like ' don't buy that' , but no, he called me a possession noob, whatever that is.  I asked him what he meant, and he said that only newbs buy possession because they can't build a deck.  So now i have a reason to make a blacklist >:(
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: PetterTB on July 12, 2011, 07:32:22 am
Someone today informed me that they "normally win" and that I'm a "lucky boy."

I've met him as well. Professor x?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: def on July 12, 2011, 08:00:54 am
I've met him too, but didn't we agree on not having a public blacklist here?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on July 12, 2011, 09:17:19 am
I've met him too, but didn't we agree on not having a public blacklist here?

That really is up to Theory, since this is his board. I don't recall him weighing in on this, but I suspect (only suspect, mind you) that he runs this board with a laissez-faire attitude. As long as you're civil in your posts and use the proper spoiler in puzzles, maybe anything goes. I don't know the guy, so please accept my assessment with a grain of salt.

That being said, this is the same kind of talk that you could see in the lobby of Isotropic. People are warning others of bad players. You only have their word that they experienced those negative interactions. Granted, it's more permanent here, but the concept is still the same.

Although, it's worth pointing out (or reminding) that names on Isotropic are not permanent. The bad players you lambast could have easily changed names and made your warning pointless. Even worse, if that problem player used the name of a common term or movie or character, then you may be blacklisting an innocent person. For example, someone mentioned Professor X. He's a great character, so fans tend to use his name. If the jerk who went as Professor X decided to change his name to Magneto, then the next person who decides to take Professor X could be shunned. And let's not forget variants. What is someone goes as Prof X? Technically, the name is different, but we humans just remember that it's the name of the head of the X-Men. That person might get blacklisted too.

Such talk is useful, but we all need to be aware that it's not perfect. In fact, I'd be willing to wager that if a few days have passed, it may be worth giving that name a second chance. Of course, if the same name burns you twice across a length of time, then it may be safe to assume that this name will always be a dick, but it's still only an assumption.

I wonder, though, if someone's name could be snatched up on Isotropic? Is the name reserved for your e-mail address until you request a new one? I'd hate to think that someone could log in as Theory and try to trash his good name (or take advantage of his higher level).
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on July 12, 2011, 09:30:01 am
Quote from: Isotropic faq
Why do I have to log in?
You don't, you can click the play without logging in button on the login screen. Logging in offers some benefits, though:
- the nickname you choose is reserved; no one else can use it. (You can change it at any time, but only the most recently-used one is reserved to your account.)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: theory on July 12, 2011, 09:57:40 am
I tend to agree that creating a "shame list" is uncouth.  It definitely encourages offenders to just change their login name.  Besides, the worst that happens if you play someone with a bad attitude is you get cursed out for beating them, and I frankly kind of enjoy that.

It's different if there's someone out there that's really causing trouble (e.g., hacking Isotropic (doubtful) or deliberately taking as long as possible (more likely)).
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on July 13, 2011, 05:04:50 pm
As long as we're posting amusing stories of sore losers...  I had a pleasant exchange today.

I should learn to take the advice posted above and just not talk...but I couldn't help myself.


14:49 (anonymous jerk): lol copy my tactic and it works better for you. figures
14:49 Eagle: yeah I totally couldn't have came up with an ambassador strategy all by my self
14:50 (anonymous jerk): its using 2 ambassadors and you woulda been fucked if i hadn't had a hand of 3 estates with no ambass in the first 4 turns
14:51 Eagle: ok I totally couldn't have thought to use 2 ambassadors all by myself..  my mental capacity just isn't that advanced
14:51 (anonymous jerk): apparently not since you didn't
14:51 Eagle: go look at some of my past games & see if I've ever bought 2 of them in the passt
14:51 (anonymous jerk): because that's possible
14:51 Eagle: what?
14:51 (anonymous jerk): you only bought an ambassador after you saw me buy 2
14:52 Eagle: because I thought a fishing village might be important to be able to play them both in the same hand
14:53 (anonymous jerk): you got lucky is what it comes down to
14:53 Eagle: whatever
14:53 (anonymous jerk): if my cards worked with the ambassadors, you would never have gotten started
14:53 (anonymous jerk): 2 ambassador start almost alwasy wins it
14:53 Eagle: which is why I've done it so many times...  like I said, go look if you think I "copied" you
14:54 (anonymous jerk): lol you can say that all you want. only evidence we have is the shitty caravan you purchased
14:54 (anonymous jerk) has returned to the lobby.


I'd like to add that:  No, the only evidence we have is the insane amount of past games that are cataloged at isotropic and councilroom.com.  Thanks...

The funny thing about the whole discussion is that even though I got accused of copying his strategy, I really didn't, because he bought two terminals right off the bat, and I mixed in a caravan for the draw, and a fishing village for the actions, then bought my 2nd ambassador.  That hardly feels like the same strategy to me.

And even if I hadn't planned on buying the 2nd ambassador at the beginning, I would have been stupid not to after he did, just so I could keep up on the card swapping.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: fp on July 13, 2011, 07:27:57 pm
Recent Comments:

Quote
/gaggot

In response to winning (he won)) a Possession/Masquerade/King's Court game

At first, I thought it was a typo, then my curious and brave soul ventured to Urban Dictionary. Not a typo.

Quote
fuuuuuck should have just bought a province instead of minioning you :(

This one is a little understandable, but still unnecessary.

This is density of vulgar comments is news to me!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Donald X. on July 13, 2011, 07:51:43 pm
The important thing is the memories we're making.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on July 13, 2011, 08:34:36 pm
The important thing is the memories we're making.

Absolutely...  Hahah..
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on July 14, 2011, 01:17:56 am
The important thing is the memories we're making.

Anyone else read that in GLaDOS's voice?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on July 14, 2011, 10:13:34 am
The important thing is the memories we're making.

Anyone else read that in GLaDOS's voice?

Not at first, but now that I have, it's freakin' hilarious.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on July 14, 2011, 10:25:19 am
The important thing is the memories we're making.

Anyone else read that in GLaDOS's voice?

Donald...GlaDOS....    Hmmmmmm
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Zaphod on July 26, 2011, 06:26:39 pm
Someone today informed me that they "normally win" and that I'm a "lucky boy."

I've met him as well. Professor x?

I got this from someone today..."very lucky boy, normally I win...enjoy this moment".  I looked him up, and he's 8-16.  It wasn't the handle you mentioned, but all his games have been played in the last 10 days, so it's possible that guy created a new account.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on July 30, 2011, 08:53:35 pm
I love people.  Guy says nothing during the match, no gl hf or anything, then:

20:39 Kirian: Heya gl hf
20:51 Kirian: gg
20:51 [jerk]: go fuck yourself
20:51 [jerk] has returned to the lobby.

Now this was a 33-13 game, but come on, dude.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: eggnoir on August 07, 2011, 06:25:42 pm
Get enough people together for anything and there will always be at least a couple of arseholes. The decline in civility is directly related to an increase in Isotropic's playerbase - no bad thing, i'm sure we can all agree. While losing to a rude person can be infuriating, do bear in mind that anyone who has to pretend to be a badass to random strangers on an online card game is surely not worthy of your time, emotions or thoughts. Just say 'gg' and move on.

On the subject of supposedly worthless abbreviated greetings and farewells, what exactly is wrong with wishing your opponent good luck? Are you seriously suggesting that you'd rather win because you're a lucksack and the shuffler screws your opponent? I know that I would rather play tight against a skilled opponent and come out on top, than have them lose because of hideously unlucky draws. Even though luck is how I win a significant percentage of my games ;)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Graystripe77 on August 11, 2011, 08:14:01 pm
Personal Fav:

Person: Nice Gold Hack.

Me: Hack??

Person: You never bought gold, you have four now.

Me: Treasure Map gave me gold, i trashed two.

Person: Bullshit. (ragequit)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 11, 2011, 09:25:13 pm
Someone today informed me that they "normally win" and that I'm a "lucky boy."

I've met him as well. Professor x?

I got this from someone today..."very lucky boy, normally I win...enjoy this moment".  I looked him up, and he's 8-16.  It wasn't the handle you mentioned, but all his games have been played in the last 10 days, so it's possible that guy created a new account.

I love this dude - he's auto wins!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on August 11, 2011, 10:01:48 pm
I have met him as well, after I had seen him mentioned here.  Lolz.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Fangz on August 11, 2011, 10:52:43 pm
2:30 [idiot]: ...
2:30 [idiot]: lucky fucking cunty
2:31 [idiot]: you faget bitch
2:31 Fang: er, thanks
2:32 [idiot]: fuck you and your cheap ass warehouse bitch
2:32 Fang: why not buy a warehouse yourself?
2:32 Fang: instead of terminals like rabble?
2:32 [idiot] has returned to the lobby.

So uh warehouse is cheap now?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 11, 2011, 10:59:01 pm
Yeah, Fangz, it's not that hard to get to $3... that's pretty cheap ;)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on August 12, 2011, 02:00:25 am
Every once in a while I think about trying isotropic again, then I get an email about a new post in this topic and remember why I swore it off.  It's unfortunate...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: guided on August 12, 2011, 08:02:25 am
Every once in a while I think about trying isotropic again, then I get an email about a new post in this topic and remember why I swore it off.  It's unfortunate...
That's silly.

Maybe 2% of games I've played on isotropic have involved any sort of problem like the stuff in this thread.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Nitsuj on August 12, 2011, 10:31:58 am
Every once in a while I think about trying isotropic again, then I get an email about a new post in this topic and remember why I swore it off.  It's unfortunate...
That's silly.

Maybe 2% of games I've played on isotropic have involved any sort of problem like the stuff in this thread.

I'd say that even 2% is a gross over-estimate for how often this sort of stuff happens.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on August 12, 2011, 10:41:03 am

Person: Nice Gold Hack.


The next time we get Treasure Map on the board, I'm going to call it a Gold Hax. That's awesome.

I wonder if we should break this off into a new thread called, "Vent Against Clueless Players." This thread is clearly needed for the benefit of venting frustration.

I kind of wish I played more Isotropic just to meet these yahoos. I love internet rage.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Taqman on August 12, 2011, 11:16:11 am

Person: Nice Gold Hack.


I kind of wish I played more Isotropic just to meet these yahoos. I love internet rage.

Exactly!  I don't know why so many people are bothered by this hilariousness.  I love facing crazies!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on August 12, 2011, 09:26:57 pm
Last time i checked I have played more Dominion games on Isotropic than anyone else on the leaderboard, and I could count the number of extremely rude encounters on two hands.  This is really a very polite and mature player base for an internet game.  And thank you for reading my shameless brag about having played more games of Dominion games on Isotropic than anyone else on the leaderboard.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on August 12, 2011, 09:47:01 pm
I'm glad you guys are having a better experience than I have.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 12, 2011, 10:38:15 pm
I have I think the second most games on the board, and I think I've had 3 people be jerks.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on August 13, 2011, 05:24:38 am
lol u guys hav no life.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Davio on August 15, 2011, 12:05:00 pm
Just a quick warning: High rank does not equal politeness.

I played "wombat madness (35)" today as a lvl 31 myself.

It was a high variance kingdom with Sea Hag, Tournament and Apprentice.
I dealt the first blow with Sea Hag, discarding his and the wailing started.

When this happens I always think (and sometimes say): "I've had it happen to me plenty of times."
I think anyone with ~1000 (geez, did I really waste so much time of my life with this game?) games will have had his share of luck for and against him.

It got worse when I strung some Tournaments together for the first Province and got the Trusty Steed + Bag of Gold while he was still at 0 prizes.
He ragequitted after some more luck remarks.

I guess the old formula still applies: Normal Person + Anonimity = Douchebag
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 15, 2011, 12:13:51 pm
lol u guys hav no life.
I probably spend more time on chess than I do dominion!

@Davio, I disagree with your final premise, though I do want to add that I've had an even stronger player be the most... uncivil player I've dealt with.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Davio on August 15, 2011, 02:01:55 pm
Well, the formula is as scientific as it is accurate.

It's just a shame that some people think they have to let go of their manners when they're online, even if they are still communicating with human beings.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 15, 2011, 03:10:31 pm
lol u guys hav no life.
I probably spend more time on chess than I do dominion!

@Davio, I disagree with your final premise, though I do want to add that I've had an even stronger player be the most... uncivil player I've dealt with.

Was it me?  I have been known to whine and drive the Whaaambulance from time to time - hopefully in good fun for all, but I hope that I wasn't the most uncivil ever.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 15, 2011, 03:11:53 pm
No, not at all. I don't think I've ever had any problem with you, and I think the person in question probably knows who he is.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on August 15, 2011, 07:41:52 pm
It's heartening that the problems one sees on isotropic haven't seemed to extend over to this forum.  A forum with this many users, it's a breath of fresh air that we haven't had moderators having to edit posts etc.

@Frisk:  I think there's a major difference between whining and being uncivil.  I find more and more on iso that when I whine, I tend to go more with laughing at my own mistakes (or bad luck) because, frankly, it's more fun that way.  But a little bit of whining is different from calling someone a cheater or an asshole.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 17, 2011, 10:27:28 am
No, not at all. I don't think I've ever had any problem with you, and I think the person in question probably knows who he is.
The only reason why I thought it might be me is that you always seemed to be in turbo mode, so maybe I had offended you at one point, but you didn't want to reject games because... hey... its dominion.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Destry on August 17, 2011, 01:06:17 pm
The one pet peeve I have is when someone quits out of a 3 or 4 player game, especially without warning. I'm building my deck, and suddenly cursing cards get much more powerful (too many curses) and card like jester and pirate ship get much weaker (fewer targets).
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Elysium on August 19, 2011, 02:26:02 pm
Some crybaby named Frozyme accused me of hacking the point counter extension so I could sneak it into an automatch game where it is disabled or something.  This is more likely the result of the recent software change for the lobbies breaking something, but no, I am a cheating hacker, that is the likeliest scenario.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: puddleduck on August 23, 2011, 10:16:50 am
I don't find it to be a consistent problem.  But there is one user in particular who I avoid.  He's just rude ... makes nasty comments along the lines of "loser", "gay noob" etc ...

I try to avoid him, or if I find myself playing him by accident I just resign to avoid the hassle.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on August 24, 2011, 03:07:23 am
I like the guy named "You".  His name screws up the Chrome extension so that only he can get an accurate point and card count.  Not so bad now that there is a built in point counter but it is still kind of a cheap shot.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: How Bazaar on August 26, 2011, 05:21:52 pm
Only ever had a problem with this guy named "th2wo" or something like that.  Just was always rude.

It's really not a problem, let alone widespread, at all.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on August 26, 2011, 09:23:56 pm
Huh, that is pretty funny.  th2wo has beat me repeatedly, I am 1-7 against him.  Maybe that is why he isn't rude to me. :D
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: michaeljb on August 30, 2011, 04:09:58 pm
I just had an odd experience yesterday...(and this post became longer than I anticipated, summary at the bottom)

I had just entered the lobby, trying to get an auto-match game, not getting one after a couple auto-proposals with the same guy (he was level 6, I'm guessing he declined because I was level 33) so I unchecked the 2p box. Then I was proposed a game by a level 39 player and gladly accepted. King's Court, Laboratory, Bishop, and Possession were available, and I thought it would be fun to try to build a deck with only those cards, so it'd be good at Possessing and getting me VP tokens but nothing else. Didn't quite succeed in that regard, but when I played KC-Possession the first time, my opponent said this:

22:20 [opponent]: right
22:20 [opponent]: i hate possession
22:22 [opponent]: shame on me for not rejecting the game i suppose
22:22 michaeljb: King's Court makes it much worse
22:22 [opponent]: the card just sucks

A couple minutes later I had a bit of a big KC/Lab turn going, and while there were no Cursers in the supply, Black Market and Ambassador were also in the game, and I had picked up a couple Cursers from there (on a Possession turn) while my opponent had bought a Curse for his Ambassador. The Curses had run out, as well as the King's Courts and the Labs were just about to run out, but I honestly had not realized the Curse stack was out so I wasn't thinking about the 3 piles so much (there were also no +Buys).

He was understandably frustrated that I was taking a long turn when I could have ended it...

22:26 [opponent]: just buy a lab and end it

I didn't actually see this message till I played a couple other cards, including a KC'd Bishop, and the third time the Bishop played

22:26 [opponent]: dude
22:26 [opponent]: either end it or i log out and come back
22:26 michaeljb: i'd already hit bishop before i saw your message
22:27 michaeljb: ...and what would that accomplish?

tl;dr The best I can come up with that logging out and coming back would accomplish would be I would be sitting there for a couple minutes or something I guess, but more importantly then that I was just surprised that a higher level player would respond to Possession the way he did, namely 1) not prohibiting it in a game which he proposed, and 2) ignoring the card's presence and complaining about it when his opponent doesn't.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on August 31, 2011, 04:19:30 am
I think logging out and coming back can let you effectively resign during an opponent's turn. I don't know for sure, because I've not done it, but I've had games where my opponent has VERY quickly discarded to Militia or not trashed to Bishop or whatever and I thought "huh, that's strange" and then when it gets to their turn they instantly resign. I assume this happens when they leave during my turn, but as I say, I don't know for sure.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: dougz on August 31, 2011, 10:42:08 am
If you're in a game where an opponent is being particularly obnoxious in the chat window, you can now stop listening to them:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/faq/#mute
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: How Bazaar on August 31, 2011, 07:31:21 pm
If you're in a game where an opponent is being particularly obnoxious in the chat window, you can now stop listening to them:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/faq/#mute

Eggcellent option!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Dave970 on September 01, 2011, 04:55:39 pm
Huh, that is pretty funny.  th2wo has beat me repeatedly, I am 1-7 against him.  Maybe that is why he isn't rude to me. :D

I beat this person a long time ago, when my rank was probably in the low teens (don't pay too much attention to it, if anyone recalls the discussion in the "I don't know what this thread has become" thread).  He/she was pissed about it, and wanted an immediate rematch, and I asked if he/she could wait a couple minutes, because I had to attend to my laundry.  Some manner of insult was thrown at me, plus some sort of threat of never getting to play this person again, as if it was some kind of privilege for a lowly person such as myself.  Sorry, "th2wo", not my loss.  I do get a chuckle when I see him/her logged in.  I always auto-match... wonder if the veiled threat would still apply...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: PerdHapley on September 03, 2011, 02:00:28 am
I came here to vent my frustrations about this game in particular: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201109/02/game-20110902-224843-e88df382.html (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201109/02/game-20110902-224843-e88df382.html).

After turn 12, this happens:

22:45 ddubois: nice luck fag
22:46 perdhapley: is that really necessary?
22:46 ddubois: no your rfucking luck is not necessaery

...And then, well, you can see the log. At the end of the game he immediately returned to the lobby. I don't believe I played this game particularly well or anything, but I certainly wasn't the only lucky one.

It really bums me out to see such unprovoked attacks, however rare they may be. Isotropic is such a friendly place most of the time that I never know how to deal with these kind of people when I encounter them.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rspeer on September 03, 2011, 05:22:25 am
I hope we all agree that when playing Dominion online, you never complain about your opponent's luck. That conversation goes nowhere good, especially in a pseudonymous, emotionless chat box. It makes you look bad no matter how innocently you meant it.

If someone brings it up casually, I'll point that out. And next time I run into someone who's clearly being hostile about my luck, I'm going to try replying with a generous assumption about why they're complaining:

"Oh, I'm sorry! I should have warned you this game has luck in it. I thought you had played Dominion before."
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Arya Stark on September 03, 2011, 07:56:28 am


"Oh, I'm sorry! I should have warned you this game has luck in it. I thought you had played Dominion before."

haha, Love it!  ;D
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ackack on September 03, 2011, 11:28:57 am
I hope we all agree that when playing Dominion online, you never complain about your opponent's luck. That conversation goes nowhere good, especially in a pseudonymous, emotionless chat box. It makes you look bad no matter how innocently you meant it.

If someone brings it up casually, I'll point that out. And next time I run into someone who's clearly being hostile about my luck, I'm going to try replying with a generous assumption about why they're complaining:

"Oh, I'm sorry! I should have warned you this game has luck in it. I thought you had played Dominion before."

Of course the flipside of this is that there doesn't seem to be much reason to get offended if somebody points out that you've been lucky, because there's a very good chance that you actually were. It's pretty rare that somebody tells me that I was lucky and I disagree with them. And given that you've mentioned that whining about luck makes you look bad (which I'll agree, it almost always looks whiny) I can't say that passive aggressive responses of this sort make you look good either.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ehunt on September 03, 2011, 12:27:03 pm
Actually I find that almost always, when someone complains that I'm lucky, they've played the game wrong (especially true when I've bought a light trasher like lookout or trade route - yes, my scrying pools draw more cards than yours on average- who knew? cool silvers, by the way). At any rate, even when I am lucky, I don't want to hear it. The classy thing to do is tell your opponent outright if you think you're getting extraordinarily lucky. Of course we all think we're lucky less often than we are, but...

Flip-side: if you actually DO get lucky and your opponent whines about it, it can be fun to find some infinitesimal difference between how you played and how your opponent did and argue against all evidence that this is the key reason that you are winning.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: biopower on September 03, 2011, 12:56:38 pm
I came here to vent my frustrations about this game in particular: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201109/02/game-20110902-224843-e88df382.html (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201109/02/game-20110902-224843-e88df382.html).

After turn 12, this happens:

22:45 ddubois: nice luck fag
22:46 perdhapley: is that really necessary?
22:46 ddubois: no your rfucking luck is not necessaery

...And then, well, you can see the log. At the end of the game he immediately returned to the lobby. I don't believe I played this game particularly well or anything, but I certainly wasn't the only lucky one.

It really bums me out to see such unprovoked attacks, however rare they may be. Isotropic is such a friendly place most of the time that I never know how to deal with these kind of people when I encounter them.

This guy is the only culprit I've actually had to deal with in the past month of being extremely uncivil. He acted similarly when I won a Minion split 6-4, claiming he played better but I was just lucky, then resigning.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: biopower on September 04, 2011, 02:24:18 am
There's a guy called "Plenty of Horny" who continually comes online only to challenge spam everybody in the room (checks everyone, proposes game with, continues ad infinitum just to troll). Is there some way to deal with people like him?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Graystripe77 on September 04, 2011, 05:05:42 pm
A person called 'duh minion' is usually insulting when i play him:

Me: Nice Watchtower defense  ( it was good, i was serious )
Him: Nice buying a province every turn
Me: Thanks
Him: lucky bastard
Me: what?
Him: you heard me.
Me: but how am i getting lucky?
Him: 'cause ( obviously he couldn't back it up )
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: PerdHapley on September 04, 2011, 05:21:26 pm
There's a guy called "Plenty of Horny" who continually comes online only to challenge spam everybody in the room (checks everyone, proposes game with, continues ad infinitum just to troll). Is there some way to deal with people like him?

Ha I've been in the lobby when he's done that, there's almost always a few people who call him out. The only defense against that, I think, is to have auto match checked and swat his proposal away until a real one comes or to quickly propose a game with whoever else has quickly rejected his before he can do it again.

I'd be curious to know his reasoning behind doing that, he's registered and lvl 16-ish, and I don't get why you'd consistently troll everyone like that when you actually want to play games..
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: The Adventurer on September 04, 2011, 08:27:04 pm
I hope we all agree that when playing Dominion online, you never complain about your opponent's luck. That conversation goes nowhere good, especially in a pseudonymous, emotionless chat box. It makes you look bad no matter how innocently you meant it.

If someone brings it up casually, I'll point that out. And next time I run into someone who's clearly being hostile about my luck, I'm going to try replying with a generous assumption about why they're complaining:

"Oh, I'm sorry! I should have warned you this game has luck in it. I thought you had played Dominion before."

Of course the flipside of this is that there doesn't seem to be much reason to get offended if somebody points out that you've been lucky, because there's a very good chance that you actually were. It's pretty rare that somebody tells me that I was lucky and I disagree with them. And given that you've mentioned that whining about luck makes you look bad (which I'll agree, it almost always looks whiny) I can't say that passive aggressive responses of this sort make you look good either.

The reason to be offended by it is because it depossesses you of any skill or good play you might've put into a game and puts it all on luck. It is offensive for the reason that it insults the person on the receiving end as being unskilled, idiotic, and though, yes, some read too much into it, when it is followed by a classy "bastard" or "f***er", I'm pretty sure that it's never innocent...

So it's a sore loser thing to do. And 3 ppl did that to me today. So yea: decline of civility, maybe...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DG on September 04, 2011, 09:32:46 pm
It is annoying when people say you've been lucky when in fact you've managed the possible draws a bit better. Quite often though Dominion players like to analyse the game and see where it's going wrong. Some even like to share that insight with their fellow players. You can give people a little leeway if they're just getting frustrated "I drew four walled villages last turn and now four torturers this turn without a village!". Better they type out some anger than throw the monitor out of the window.

Just to cheer people up, look at my lucky draws today! http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201109/04/game-20110904-175353-c1b43dc5.html (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201109/04/game-20110904-175353-c1b43dc5.html)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: kn1tt3r on September 05, 2011, 01:04:34 am
Just to cheer people up, look at my lucky draws today! http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201109/04/game-20110904-175353-c1b43dc5.html (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201109/04/game-20110904-175353-c1b43dc5.html)

Sometimes Dominion is like a walk in the park...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: CTMorling on September 08, 2011, 07:10:25 pm
There's something about the tracking of rank and "skill level" that totally changes the dynamic of resigning for me. I've played other online games where opponents resigning really annoys me -- at least when the game isn't a total lock -- but as soon as a rating is introduced I change my opinion. When there's no consequence for winning or losing, resigning strikes me as rude, but when my opponents' resignations mean that I get to steal a few hundredths of a rating point from them, I love it when they rage-quit.

This despite the fact that those ratings points don't really matter.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: biopower on September 08, 2011, 08:54:41 pm
There's something about the tracking of rank and "skill level" that totally changes the dynamic of resigning for me. I've played other online games where opponents resigning really annoys me -- at least when the game isn't a total lock -- but as soon as a rating is introduced I change my opinion. When there's no consequence for winning or losing, resigning strikes me as rude, but when my opponents' resignations mean that I get to steal a few hundredths of a rating point from them, I love it when they rage-quit.

This despite the fact that those ratings points don't really matter.

What do you mean epeen isn't everything? :P
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on September 12, 2011, 02:37:01 pm
"Oh, I'm sorry! I should have warned you this game has luck in it. I thought you had played Dominion before."

I'm being an Internet Tough Guy (tm) since I don't even play Isotropic that often, but I would be tempted to respond with, "Sorry, I'm a newbie. I started playing this game after they introduced luck."

I'd find it satisfyingly passive-aggressive, and it might just confound the other person enough to make him shut up.

And who knows? Maybe it'll give him a chuckle, and all is right in the world. Okay, probably not.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on September 12, 2011, 02:44:08 pm
"Oh, I'm sorry! I should have warned you this game has luck in it. I thought you had played Dominion before."

I'm being an Internet Tough Guy (tm) since I don't even play Isotropic that often, but I would be tempted to respond with, "Sorry, I'm a newbie. I started playing this game after they introduced luck."

I'd find it satisfyingly passive-aggressive, and it might just confound the other person enough to make him shut up.

And who knows? Maybe it'll give him a chuckle, and all is right in the world. Okay, probably not.


Yeah, people really complained about the lack of luck for like the first four months, and they added it in with like Patch 1.5, after which of course people QQd about the luck.  Of course luck is still unbalanced, except for Druids; ours is fine.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on September 12, 2011, 03:20:45 pm
I only complain about luck when it happens before my opponent has possibly made any intelligent decisions to earn it.  Like, 2/5 Mountebank hamlet with no trash, etc.  Am I allowed that?

I'm not ridiculous about it..
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jack Rudd on September 13, 2011, 07:43:28 pm
A gentleman by the name of "poo" decided that my play in the final turn of this game (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201109/13/game-20110913-163958-769939da.html) warranted these comments:

"Your so fucking lucky"
"Fuck you"

To which there is only one thing that can be said:

(http://wikka.moreawesomethanyou.com/images/4/49/You%27re_cat.png)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rrenaud on September 13, 2011, 08:01:37 pm
AFAIK, we could just blend all of the your, your's, and you're together and have a language that is basically not one bit more ambiguous, so who really cares?

I think the right answer to the "you are fucking lucky" problem should be an mandatory offer of a money based best of 9 bet.  If you accuse someone of being lucky, they have the chance of taking you up for a $50 best of 9.  I think people would learn really quickly to stop accusing others of being lucky, unless they want to con some poor schmo into losing $50 ;).
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ackack on September 13, 2011, 08:37:48 pm
Gambling on Dominion would be fun, but:

- the leaderboard ruins any honest action with a real edge
- as an e-penis measuring contest, the sample sizes that people will assent to are way too small to prove anything.

Just challenging them to a rematch should be fine. If you think you weren't lucky and you manfully outskilled them, then keep taking their points.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: tlloyd on September 14, 2011, 12:35:30 am
21:21 tlloyd: good luck!
21:21 ddubois: hi
21:21 ddubois: ty
21:26 ddubois: I wish I coudl cast vill eveyr turn
21:26 tlloyd: ?
21:26 ddubois: like you
21:27 tlloyd: cast vill? I don't know what you mean.
21:29 tlloyd: we both seem to get lots of villages one turn and lots of wharves the next
21:29 ddubois: oh shut up
21:30 tlloyd: why are you so rude? it's just a game, man
21:31 ddubois has returned to the lobby.

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on September 14, 2011, 05:08:23 am
Here's my really (not) exciting story:

The other day I had a veto game and my opponent vetoed Sea Hag (the only curser). I opened Black Market and soon pulled a Mountebank out and obviously bought it. My opponent told me "your homo" and resigned. I wanted to ask him what had happened with my homo but alas, he had already returned to the lobby =[
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Dave970 on September 17, 2011, 05:01:42 pm
Here's another guy: oaishdoiahsda

Real brilliant conversationalist.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: matiez on September 20, 2011, 11:52:42 am
I haven't had the above experiences on Iso. Though, there are times were I am the above guy (Sab my only province 3 times in a row, and I'm not too happy, lol).

One thing I have noticed, though, is the lack of humanity on Isotropic. Over the last 10 games I've played, over half the people didn't say a single word. And then when the game is over, they immediately return to the lobby. What is the point of playing dominion if I'm not allowed to talk about the game that just happened?!?

The biggest reason I play dominion online is to improve my skills for multiplayer on my home set. I enjoy being beat by high-lvl opponents, especially when they explain what happened during the game. Instead, I keep getting Automatched with people who don't have personalities. It's like I'm playing an AI.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Brando Commando on September 20, 2011, 12:08:46 pm
The biggest reason I play dominion online is to improve my skills for multiplayer on my home set. I enjoy being beat by high-lvl opponents, especially when they explain what happened during the game. Instead, I keep getting Automatched with people who don't have personalities. It's like I'm playing an AI.

I can count the number of lower ranked players who have asked my advice after/during a game on one hand. Maybe this is why they aren't better? I would just tell them, but I don't want to beat them over the head with it.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on September 20, 2011, 01:38:12 pm
I haven't had the above experiences on Iso. Though, there are times were I am the above guy (Sab my only province 3 times in a row, and I'm not too happy, lol).

One thing I have noticed, though, is the lack of humanity on Isotropic. Over the last 10 games I've played, over half the people didn't say a single word. And then when the game is over, they immediately return to the lobby. What is the point of playing dominion if I'm not allowed to talk about the game that just happened?!?

The biggest reason I play dominion online is to improve my skills for multiplayer on my home set. I enjoy being beat by high-lvl opponents, especially when they explain what happened during the game. Instead, I keep getting Automatched with people who don't have personalities. It's like I'm playing an AI.

I'm mostly just playing a lot of games when I play. If you want me to talk to you, talk to me. I find most people are ambivalent and/or 'say' short acronyms that are so overused that they lose all meaning.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: greatexpectations on September 20, 2011, 01:58:32 pm
One thing I have noticed, though, is the lack of humanity on Isotropic. Over the last 10 games I've played, over half the people didn't say a single word. And then when the game is over, they immediately return to the lobby. What is the point of playing dominion if I'm not allowed to talk about the game that just happened?!?

The biggest reason I play dominion online is to improve my skills for multiplayer on my home set. I enjoy being beat by high-lvl opponents, especially when they explain what happened during the game. Instead, I keep getting Automatched with people who don't have personalities. It's like I'm playing an AI.

i think part of this is the typical one and done nature of most of the gaming on isotropic.  you play someone and then move on to someone new next game. you really don't have time for much conversation in that setting, unless either one of the participants forces conversation or unless a curiosity of the game necessitates it.

i have found that the better conversations i have had are usually the result of requesting a second match/best of 3 with someone i enjoyed playing with. for that matter, i think the same can be said for getting matched up with the same person a few games in a row via automatch.  familiarity and more time spent is enough to spark some conversation in many cases.

as an extension of this, maybe a new feature to request on isotropic would be a preference for either a single match or a best of n set against the player.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Dave970 on September 20, 2011, 02:24:58 pm
as an extension of this, maybe a new feature to request on isotropic would be a preference for either a single match or a best of n set against the player.

Interesting thought.  I think I'd probably check off "best of 3" in my preferences.  I think I also find that multiple games in a row against the same person leads to a small bit of conversation.  More than a best of three, though, I'm not sure I'd check off.  Like most, I'm looking to play a variety of players.  Giving a drop-down option for the number, is certainly better for functionality, however.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DStu on September 20, 2011, 03:34:01 pm
Usually a good method to get people to talk is just to say something yourself. Even if it's just a small remark towards the end of the game like: "OK, think I have been lucky with XYZ" shows your opponent that you are not one of these guys who doesn't say anything, so he may stay a little bit longer after the game.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on September 20, 2011, 04:17:58 pm
What is the point of playing dominion if I'm not allowed to talk about the game that just happened?!?

To have fun playing the game of Dominion? If you want to talk, talk. If you want to talk to someone who will talk back, find a chat room. If you want to play Dominion, play Dominion.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: treasuremapisforcretins on October 04, 2011, 10:07:18 pm
To the compulsive sayers of "GG," here's some food for thought. In some gaming cultures, it's considered extremely rude in 99% of games for the winner to say "Good Game" first. The proper etiquette is for the loser to say it (if they feel like it), and for the winner to reciprocate. The truth is that most games of Dominion between people of similar skill levels are determined primarily by variance, and in games of chance, the person on the losing end is likely unhappy about it. Saying "GG" after you happen to win a game thanks to some fortunate draws with tournament basically amounts to throwing it in your opponent's face.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rod- on October 04, 2011, 11:43:42 pm
To the compulsive sayers of "GG," here's some food for thought. In some gaming cultures, it's considered extremely rude in 99% of games for the winner to say "Good Game" first.
I dont think i've ever heard someone say "good game" after playing a game RL that wasn't freaking little league baseball.  Grow up, internet!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ftl on October 05, 2011, 01:05:01 am
I dont think i've ever heard someone say "good game" after playing a game RL that wasn't freaking little league baseball.  Grow up, internet!

Tennis.

After a match, you go up and shake your opponent's hand, and it's fairly customary to exchange the usual meaningless pleasantries like "well played" or "nice match", regardless of score.

Dunno about other competitive cultures, but that's the one I come from, so a 'gg' after each game, win or lose or whatever, feels entirely natural.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on October 05, 2011, 03:02:46 am
I think there are a lot of Dominion players (like me) who have been insulated from the "abuse" of the phrase 'gg' by the video game crowd.  At the risk of remotely psychoanalyzing an entire population of gamers, I suspect this alternate, insulting definition of 'gg' stems mostly from sour grapes by the defeated rather than gloating by the victorious.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: treasuremapisforcretins on October 05, 2011, 09:42:50 am
The point is that your intentions are meaningless to the other person. If you are going to say GG at the end of every game because "you're just trying to be polite," regardless of how your comment is going to be received, you are not being polite. You are being rude.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DStu on October 05, 2011, 09:50:53 am
The point is that your intentions are meaningless to the other person. If you are going to say GG at the end of every game because "you're just trying to be polite," regardless of how your comment is going to be received, you are not being polite. You are being rude.

Don't know what you want to say. Usually people on this platform say something like "gg" after every game. If you are new to the platform, you can possibly think after the first two games that you have met some idiots who just want to insult you, but somewhen after this you might reconsider your position and might possibly start to think that you have mistaken them, and that this is the usual behaviour in this social sphere.
You of course can just ignore this and think that everybody is a dick and insults you, because you consider "gg" as an insult, and you can as well consider "good bye" as an insult for whatever reason and think everybody irl is insulting you. In this case, hf...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Reyk on October 05, 2011, 10:34:38 am
For me "GG" from the loser is like offering hands in Chess and a good end of the game. I agree however on this one:

To the compulsive sayers of "GG," here's some food for thought. In some gaming cultures, it's considered extremely rude in 99% of games for the winner to say "Good Game" first.

Even worse if the winner says it at the begin of a very long turn using additional buys for copper or the like without goons/gardens.

Strange too if someone says GG after your 5/2 start or maybe after an unlucky draw at turn 6 only to play on (maybe even win).
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Buggz on October 05, 2011, 10:47:28 am
To me "gg" is a way to humbly admit defeat, simply leaving a game saying nothing is often considered a ragequit.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on October 05, 2011, 11:01:48 am
The only one that annoys me is when someone says gg at the start of my turn, then gets annoyed if I don't end the game quickly enough.

If you are so sure that I've won and don't want to sit through another turn, why didn't you resign during yours?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Brando Commando on October 05, 2011, 11:27:52 am
About "gg" as gratuitous and unnecessary: While it's true that "gg" doesn't seem to serve much function, I think it makes a difference in a medium where you can't actually see the person you're playing. In a F2F tournament, at the very least you would say hello and goodbye to your opponent and look them in the eye. "GG" is like that.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ChaosRed on October 05, 2011, 02:03:18 pm
The only one that annoys me is when someone says gg at the start of my turn, then gets annoyed if I don't end the game quickly enough.

If you are so sure that I've won and don't want to sit through another turn, why didn't you resign during yours?

I am guilty of this, I usually do it midway through a turn, when I see the money to end the game, (either a 3-pile buy or last province). To me the more important question is, if you've already won, why prolong it? It seems to me, the more courteous response is to end the game, accept victory gracefully and let us both move on.

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on October 05, 2011, 02:04:51 pm
If you just absolutely cream someone, it is impolite to type "gg".  The correct thing to say is "noob".
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ChaosRed on October 05, 2011, 02:09:03 pm
About "gg" as gratuitous and unnecessary: While it's true that "gg" doesn't seem to serve much function, I think it makes a difference in a medium where you can't actually see the person you're playing. In a F2F tournament, at the very least you would say hello and goodbye to your opponent and look them in the eye. "GG" is like that.

I think it recognizes the other opponent, its a simple, effective way to show gratitude for having engaged in a fair game without malice or slander. It's not only harmless, I appreciate it when I see it. Simple social recognition, like eye-contact, a nod or a "hello" can also be argued as "gratuitous and unnecessary" but many of us do these things anyway, because it just helps us remember there's another human being you're interacting with.

The intertubes are chalk full of the anti-social 4Chan crowd, who constantly measure their ePeen by how much bravado they can display in a medium that's completely anonymous and insulated. A "GG" is a small, small break from that awful, cold world. :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: biopower on October 05, 2011, 11:23:01 pm
I think it recognizes the other opponent, its a simple, effective way to show gratitude for having engaged in a fair game without malice or slander. It's not only harmless, I appreciate it when I see it. Simple social recognition, like eye-contact, a nod or a "hello" can also be argued as "gratuitous and unnecessary" but many of us do these things anyway, because it just helps us remember there's another human being you're interacting with.

The intertubes are chalk full of the anti-social 4Chan crowd, who constantly measure their ePeen by how much bravado they can display in a medium that's completely anonymous and insulated. A "GG" is a small, small break from that awful, cold world. :)

It's an awful case of false dichotomy to insinuate that you either say "gg" or you're a /b/tard.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ChaosRed on October 06, 2011, 02:45:46 pm
It's an awful case of false dichotomy to insinuate that you either say "gg" or you're a /b/tard.

I'm still chewing those words you put in my mouth. They don't taste very good. :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: biopower on October 06, 2011, 03:05:36 pm
Sorry if you felt that way; it's just that 4chan and "gg" are just so hugely unrelated. /b/ gives a bad name to the other boards on 4chan, and refusing to say "gg" will hardly be seen as a show of bravado to any of the Anons. Thankfully, the awful cold world which is /b/ can't be generalized to the rest of the (searchable) internet.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on October 06, 2011, 05:24:10 pm
If you just absolutely cream someone, it is impolite to type "gg".  The correct thing to say is "noob".

OK, I laughed.

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Geronimoo on October 09, 2011, 06:09:51 pm
Just now this level 0 was savagely outplaying me and I got a little mad:

Geronimoo: f u :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Farm: what does f u mean?

... a few seconds go by...

Farm: oh
Farm: really?

He won the game and "f u"-d me right back and left before I cooled down and could apologize. So to that guy, sorry for my behaviour :(
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Epoch on October 10, 2011, 04:58:17 pm
If you feel hugely insulted because someone said "gg" to you at the end of the game, it may be time for you to, like, investigate your anger issues or something.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ddubois on October 12, 2011, 06:12:18 am
I apologize to everyone I've called a shitbag. :)

I have tilt issues. :(
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on October 12, 2011, 08:11:19 am
I actually had someone pull the 'wait 179 seconds between each action' trick on me yesterday.

He opened with 'Aloha' and I wasn't feeling talkative so I didn't respond. Next turn 'Gutentag', then 'Buenos dias', etc.
I was getting a little fed up with it, so when he said something like 'Too busy to be courteous, eh?', I responded with 'Hurry up and lose :)' which apparently touched a nerve.

We actually ended up having a nice chat about differing ideas of courtesy when we should have been playing. Unfortunately I couldn't fully indulge my stubbornness as I had somewhere to be and was forced to time out.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: mathguy on October 12, 2011, 08:46:40 pm
I will 'gg' on my turn as a way of saying 'I will end the game this turn, you can stop thinking about your next turn'.

In ~800 games, not one person has been rude to me. In a large percentage (90%) of games we both exchange hello/gg and in the other 10% we have an interesting conversation (about math or dominion).

One thing that might help is I acknowledge the rare (or lucky?) things that happen in the games I play. My Jester hits your gold on my turn 4 I'll say "rough". Your swindler hits nothing but my coppers while mine hits only your estates: "you should give that swindler a raise, mine's a bum".

Similarly, you Tactician on turn 5 into a platinum: "wow!".

Also, I can't remember the last time I lost to a level <20 player based solely on my opponent's good luck.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rod- on October 12, 2011, 09:54:40 pm
I will 'gg' on my turn as a way of saying 'I will end the game this turn, you can stop thinking about your next turn'.
I'll often 'gg' on my opponent's turn as a way of saying "if you hadn't noticed it, you have a win on the table".
Then i feel really bad when i'm in the middle of typing it and they finish their turn without bothering to win.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ChaosRed on October 13, 2011, 02:05:59 pm
I find I run into two players:

1. Those who, like me, don't mind taking a few seconds to say hello and genuinely engage the opponent.

2. Those who shut up, never say anything, ever and tend to be matched up again within seconds of losing/winning.

The first type of player, always produces a more interesting game, because they are more likely to comment on moves they (or I) made and this helps not only make the game more cordial, but interesting. I wish there was a way to flag players as agreeable to your play style, because they make playing the game much more interesting.

The second type of player genuinely seem hungry for ratings. Only because they are madly trying to squeeze as many games in as possible. If these players say anything at all, it when you do hit a very lucky streak and that turns the tide in the game. At which point, they swear or curse your luck, but not much else.

I tend to get luckier than my opponents. Or at least, I recognize my own luck more often. Having only one gold early and seeing it come up again on the very next draw of a reshuffle, can really move me forward.

The most unlucky I ever seem to get is with Saboteur, which seems to always find my Provinces (even if I have only one), but never seems to find my Silver.

Anyway, I most definitely enjoy a more social player, and a brief discussion of the board/game after its conclusion is most welcome.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: chwhite on October 13, 2011, 02:35:38 pm
I'm usually quite happy to discuss strategy etc. but tend not to talk much beyond the simple courtesy of "hi gl/gg" unless my opponent(s) demonstrate an interest and start talking first. 

I imagine this is fairly common.

If I notice that my opponent(s) have just had something particularly unlucky happen to them (e.g. Swindling a 5-cost) then I'll often acknowledge it with an "oof" or "I'm sorry".
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Epoch on October 13, 2011, 02:51:54 pm
I often just straight-up don't notice a comment in the chat window if things didn't start off chatty.  I've had a few games where when I looked down to chat to type "gg," I saw some comment from my opponent that probably happened 5 minutes ago.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ChaosRed on October 13, 2011, 04:00:04 pm
I'm usually quite happy to discuss strategy etc. but tend not to talk much beyond the simple courtesy of "hi gl/gg" unless my opponent(s) demonstrate an interest and start talking first. 

I imagine this is fairly common.

If I notice that my opponent(s) have just had something particularly unlucky happen to them (e.g. Swindling a 5-cost) then I'll often acknowledge it with an "oof" or "I'm sorry".

It is common, I always make an extended comment at the start to signal I am open to discussing the game, but like the post after yours suggests, some people miss them for a long period, as they rightly focus on the board and start counting cards and VPs.

I spose I could always put some games up on this forum for discussion too. Part of the "agenda" here of course is to teach myself how to play the game at a decent level, as opposed to the noobish level I am at now.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Anon79 on October 13, 2011, 10:04:09 pm
The second type of player genuinely seem hungry for ratings.
No, not for ratings, for more games and more practice. Some of us just take this game a lot more seriously than others.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on October 14, 2011, 08:30:48 am
Some guy just had a go at me for getting lucky when he went 4-0 up on Provinces and then I hammered the Gardens stack. Seriously, if I get 2 Bureacrats in the first 4 turns and then spend the next 8-10 turns loading up on Villages and Wharfs, you need to block the Gardens or you're going to lose. No luck involved.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ChaosRed on October 14, 2011, 12:51:09 pm
The "you got lucky" comment is pretty common for me too. Sometimes its deserved, but mostly it just seems kind of petty. I tell you also, its the people who don't even spare you an opening greeting that seem more likely to blow up when they lose. I think some people are just a tad too tense when they play.

But I'll concede I am a very, very casual player, looking for laughs more than victories. It's why I hang out here and design variants, to have a laugh or two, discuss the game and enjoy the "meta" part of the meta-game. :)

Doesn't make me a superior player of course (possibly even an inferior player), but it does explain why I am more willing to engage in some light chat during a game.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on October 14, 2011, 06:54:12 pm
The "you got lucky" comment is pretty common for me too. Sometimes its deserved, but mostly it just seems kind of petty. I tell you also, its the people who don't even spare you an opening greeting that seem more likely to blow up when they lose. I think some people are just a tad too tense when they play.

But I'll concede I am a very, very casual player, looking for laughs more than victories. It's why I hang out here and design variants, to have a laugh or two, discuss the game and enjoy the "meta" part of the meta-game. :)

Doesn't make me a superior player of course (possibly even an inferior player), but it does explain why I am more willing to engage in some light chat during a game.

Hate to break it to you.. but if you even know of this forum's existence you are in no way a 'casual' player.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ChaosRed on October 14, 2011, 07:20:01 pm
Heh, well I should have said "poor player" perhaps?

Just got the "lucky crap wins" comment on a victory. It was because one of one my Saboteur plays nailed a Province. The thing is, he had nailed several of my Gold earlier, and the real reason I won was because I upgraded two 4s to Dutchies, then 3-piling on one of his Sabotage plays.

In other words, yeah I got a bit lucky, but I also handled some aspects of the game well enough to win.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: sweettea on October 15, 2011, 06:33:07 pm
Once, there was a person who attempted cybersex with me while playing.

Nothing like that has happened anytime recently.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Tombolo on October 16, 2011, 01:09:53 am
So I am likely to be offending people with "GG"?  I don't wait or anything, I generally just say it or something similar as soon as the game ends.  Should...should I not when I win?

I feel the civility has declined a bit over the last couple of weeks but it is still generally neutral or good experiences.  I DID have somebody whine and ragequit the other day, but most of my games have proceeded without incident, if not tons of friendly banter.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: pooka on October 16, 2011, 01:57:25 am
Once, there was a person who attempted cybersex with me while playing.

Nothing like that has happened anytime recently.
Yeah, I see some of the user names and statuses and it makes me reticent to instigate conversation.  But there is that ignore option mentioned in the FAQ.  On the upside, you can meet people from all over the world on isotropic. 
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on October 17, 2011, 01:23:16 pm
Once, there was a person who attempted cybersex with me while playing.

Nothing like that has happened anytime recently.

Did he ask you to three-pile him?

(I have no idea what that means)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Epoch on October 17, 2011, 03:10:06 pm
So I am likely to be offending people with "GG"?  I don't wait or anything, I generally just say it or something similar as soon as the game ends.  Should...should I not when I win?

No.  Look, the internet standard is to say "gg" at the end of the game.  People who get offended when someone says "good game" to them are being ridiculous.  I mean, sure, if you want to make the point that in your ideal world, people would take a different standard for the end of the game, okay, fine.  You may have a point.

But if you get OFFENDED when people say a polite, meaningless phrase at the end of the game, that's your problem, not your opponent's.  It's similar to if you get OFFENDED if people say "God bless you" after you sneeze.  Sure, maybe that phrase isn't the ideal, but it's well-meant and ultimately not a big deal.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on October 17, 2011, 04:11:12 pm
I think I've been offended once or twice when 'gg' was said to me at any point, and that's only when it was clearly sarcastic, as they'd been personally ripping into me beforehand.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Copernicus on October 18, 2011, 12:16:31 am
23:14 o_O: gg db

Somehow, I don't think that's the proper meaning of gg.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ftl on October 18, 2011, 01:41:28 am
What's db? Or is it a smiley?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: biopower on October 18, 2011, 02:41:06 am
What's db? Or is it a smiley?

douchebag
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ftl on October 18, 2011, 02:58:40 am
Oh. :(
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on October 18, 2011, 10:10:51 am
23:14 o_O: gg db

Somehow, I don't think that's the proper meaning of gg.

Quite often when I type "gg", that's exactly what I'm thinking.  :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on October 19, 2011, 11:55:53 am
23:14 o_O: gg db

Somehow, I don't think that's the proper meaning of gg.

Quite often when I type "gg", that's exactly what I'm thinking.  :)

Whenever I see someone type an acronym, I just assume that it is something insulting or humiliating.

So, on Isotropic, I get offended when someone calls me a "Greedy Goat" or starts off a game by calling me "Halibut Face."

Okay, tnt*, but I might start doing that.

* That's Not True, or you could assume it means Totally Needless Troll.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ChaosRed on October 19, 2011, 12:15:42 pm
I tend to talk in actual sentences, but I will return a "GG" if that's what was offered to me. So I'll usually type, "thanks for the game", but if they already initiated a GG, I'll return "GG", kinda like how in some languages its considered good etiquette to return the exact same kind of informal greeting.

Meh, you know, it doesn't really matter. I think what matters is that we recognize that isotropic has a few douche bags, but they are the extreme minority. And that, taking an extra 10 seconds to thank your opponent, isn't such a terrible thing. I tend to gauge my opponent's willingness to chat. I don't turn it into "coffee talk" or anything, but if I see the opponent willing to type a sentence, I'll sometimes comment on my moves (or his), particularly when I feel I've made a mistake, I'll call it out. For one thing, typing out the mistake, helps me remember it for next time.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Fangz on October 20, 2011, 07:56:12 pm
A game just now.
Quote
0:42 theron: simpel 2/5 start end viktory
0:42 Fang: you could have gone watchtower
0:42 Fang: that's a hard counter to margrave
0:43 Fang: instead of black market and no trashers
0:43 theron: ???
0:43 Fang: there was for example no point you picking up crossroads
0:44 Fang: If I was you, I'd have gone for watchtower and hamlets asap
0:44 Fang: and gone for the margrave with my first $5 instead of laboratory
0:44 theron: hey you get the Margrave and tje Hamlet and also the most Peddler what the fuck tell you for a shit???
0:44 Fang: I'm just giving you some friendly advice
0:45 Fang: there are things you could have done
0:45 theron: you telling simply shit i had no chance in this game because of your 2/5 start thjats the simple true
0:45 Fang: that's not even slightly true.
0:46 theron: if i had the 2/5 star i will witrh this cards simply win
0:46 Fang: really.
0:46 theron: and you too
0:46 Fang: I hate players like you
0:47 Fang: who blame luck when they plainly had no idea what they are doing
0:47 Fang: when you bought poition/bm... why?
0:47 Fang: potion
0:47 theron: and i hate players like you
0:47 Fang: for learning the game?
0:47 Fang: resign now then, and rematch
0:48 theron: make your turn ready than i can give up and you can be proud of your wisdomm
He then refused to play a rematch with identical starting hands.

Grr, yes, something you get bad shuffle luck, but people who use that as an excuse when they played badly throughout... so damn annoying.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/20/game-20111020-164827-cc1d3235.html
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ackack on October 20, 2011, 08:19:41 pm
Sure, he didn't play well. Of course you're also going for the Potion pretty early on this particular board, and I'm inclined to think he's also right that being second player with 4/3 against first player with 5/2 on that board will be a loss 80+% of the time. To compete in the Peddler race it's not enough that Watchtower lets him draw to 6 - he needs to be starting Hamlet/Watchtower, otherwise he's just boned. And that's not going to happen enough early on to contend, meaning you're going to get a massively powerful deck quite quickly with plenty of time to pick up Pools once you're chock full of actions.

So, I'd say that you should also accept that this was indeed a very lucky game for you, and then challenge him to that rematch.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Fangz on October 20, 2011, 08:59:11 pm
There's three keys to that game - trashing to get rid of coppers and estates, +buy, and attacking pressure with margrave/defending from that. His starting buys - potion/blackmarket just don't help with that at all. If he had gone silver-steward, or steward-watchtower, he could have gotten a margrave in response as early as turn 4, (and gotten another $5 card in turn 5), he could have acquired hamlets and trashed coppers and done actually useful things in the meantime.  I would have had a grand total of 1 margrave use more than him, and for that margrave I only bought a potion anyway. If he bought the right things, by turn 5 our decks could have been completely identical. (My buy phase monies for the first 5 turns were 2,5,3,4,3. His were 3,4,4,3-5 depending on card choice, 5) Heck, he could have capitalised on his chance to open steward and trashed two more cards than me.

Instead, he did a course of action that began with a bad opening, continued with a silver buy that was useless for peddler acquisition, and ended with him actually buying none of the hamlets and margraves that he complained about me getting. Instead he gets a laboratory and a crossroad for his deck with one terminal in it, and never picks up a trasher or a +buy. There's one thing blaming bad luck if you tried your best and fought for it, and quite another when you did things that were quite simply actively horrible.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ChaosRed on October 20, 2011, 10:21:13 pm
I woulda gone Scrying Pool, Hamlet and Peddler. I would have bought one Steward early to trash Copper and just one Silver to get me over the hump early. I would have bought two Potions fairly early to get 3-4 Scrying Pools. I would have only bought the Watchtower if I saw a grab for Margrave.

Solo, I get to all 8 Provinces in  21 Turns, bet I could even get better than that, as the Scrying Pool/Peddler engine can generate 16$ with just two Silver and a Steward to help it out for money.

It wasn't that hard a board to read...Scrying Pool/Peddler and Hamlet work pretty well together.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kenuru on October 22, 2011, 01:56:40 am
Essentially, this person I played (who went by '/' and was unregistered) starting berating me for my "slow" play. I tried to explain by saying that my internet wasn't very good at my friend's house, but he wouldn't have any of that. Logic, reasoning? Nah. He continued to berate me, calling me silly things like "retarded" and whatnot until he finally resigned because I "put him to sleep."

I think it was because he was unregistered that he didn't care what he's doing to another human being--he can easily change names (or not), hide behind his veil of anonymity, and go on with his business again. I'll go back to playing rated matches.

As idiotic as this guy was, he still somewhat got to me because this was the first verbal attack I've ever witnessed in my months of playing. I wouldn't mind having thicker skin.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: mathguy on October 25, 2011, 12:19:05 am
As idiotic as this guy was, he still somewhat got to me because this was the first verbal attack I've ever witnessed in my months of playing. I wouldn't mind having thicker skin.

Hey Kenuru, you're a nice guy. I hope you play a game of Dominion with me. You're also full of good ideas. And really, next time you think of posting here: please do, because it was insightful.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Graystripe77 on October 28, 2011, 06:35:40 pm
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/28/game-20111028-153415-2d7bdb3d.html

Prior to resigning from this game, my opponent had this to say:

indomitable: hey you faggot 34 year old. get a fucking life
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jimmmmm on October 28, 2011, 09:26:39 pm
Moneylender / Chapel was an interesting opening...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Arya Stark on October 29, 2011, 01:47:57 am
hey graystripe, they same person said i was a lucky bitch and i was dead
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Graystripe77 on October 29, 2011, 09:02:05 am
hey graystripe, they same person said i was a lucky bitch and i was dead

when did you die?  :P
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Reyk on October 29, 2011, 11:52:59 am
Moneylender / Chapel was an interesting opening...

It's not so stupid in general if you wanted to say so. There are threads about this.
If no other reasonable 2$ cost card is out  - like haven - a chapel/silver clash is as bad as a chapel/moneylender clash.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jimmmmm on October 29, 2011, 06:52:52 pm
Moneylender / Chapel was an interesting opening...

It's not so stupid in general if you wanted to say so. There are threads about this.
If no other reasonable 2$ cost card is out  - like haven - a chapel/silver clash is as bad as a chapel/moneylender clash.

I don't know, Moneylender just seems a bit redundant. How long is your deck actually going to have Copper for?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Reyk on October 30, 2011, 03:20:36 am
Moneylender / Chapel was an interesting opening...

It's not so stupid in general if you wanted to say so. There are threads about this.
If no other reasonable 2$ cost card is out  - like haven - a chapel/silver clash is as bad as a chapel/moneylender clash.

I don't know, Moneylender just seems a bit redundant. How long is your deck actually going to have Copper for?

Of course there is no long term use and you will chapel him after say second use. But in ideal case you trash faster than your opponent and can buy some useful card in a moneylender turn on the way. It's not the best thing in th world and risky, but not totally stupid.
I didn't come across this opening for a very long time. So the discussion was more basic/intrigue that time. But chapel/baron is a similar idea with baron for a quick gold and then trash him.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on November 05, 2011, 02:34:03 am
Doesn't a bureacrat-chapel opening seem stronger if you wanted to win the trash race and improve your deck?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: painted_cow on November 05, 2011, 12:27:56 pm
Yes it is in a chapel-mirror-match. Its basically the same thought like Chapel/Moneylender. We had a whole thread about this issue in the German Dominion Forum like 1 year ago  8)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: olneyce on November 06, 2011, 04:40:53 am
The major change I've noticed over the last couple weeks is the number of people who just resign once they start losing.  Now, I don't have a problem with that in the abstract.  I've certainly resigned once or twice.  But it seems like it's only good form to say something before you do it.  How hard is it to type: "Way behind, not going to catch up, gg"?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on November 06, 2011, 09:21:30 am
The major change I've noticed over the last couple weeks is the number of people who just resign once they start losing.  Now, I don't have a problem with that in the abstract.  I've certainly resigned once or twice.  But it seems like it's only good form to say something before you do it.  How hard is it to type: "Way behind, not going to catch up, gg"?
Why do they need to do this? I mean, I obviously have no problem with doing this, I just don't understand why it would be necessary.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: biopower on November 06, 2011, 10:01:56 am
The major change I've noticed over the last couple weeks is the number of people who just resign once they start losing.  Now, I don't have a problem with that in the abstract.  I've certainly resigned once or twice.  But it seems like it's only good form to say something before you do it.  How hard is it to type: "Way behind, not going to catch up, gg"?

Some of the time, the reason for a forfeit is precisely because it wasn't a very good game. Think Alchemist or Familiar games where the potion is delayed to Turn 5 or you don't make $3P. I'd throw out a gg if my opponent simply played better, but there is no incentive to do so if they didn't.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Empathy on November 06, 2011, 10:20:59 am
The major change I've noticed over the last couple weeks is the number of people who just resign once they start losing.  Now, I don't have a problem with that in the abstract.  I've certainly resigned once or twice.  But it seems like it's only good form to say something before you do it.  How hard is it to type: "Way behind, not going to catch up, gg"?

Some of the time, the reason for a forfeit is precisely because it wasn't a very good game. Think Alchemist or Familiar games where the potion is delayed to Turn 5 or you don't make $3P. I'd throw out a gg if my opponent simply played better, but there is no incentive to do so if they didn't.

Agreed. I finish losing games unless I feel that they are dragging for too long *and* were mostly the consequence of luck. I never quit before the winner is clear, however. So don't take me quitting in towards the end as a particular sign of anger. You probably played well, but I have nothing to add to the game (nor really any particularly positive comments to make) in such a situation. A bot could finish for me.

On the flip side however, being a cautious player, I do tend to drag on winning games for too long. Not to gloat on the victory or get badges or whatever, but really to minimize the chances of a miracle comeback. And I completely understand if you want to quit in the middle of that.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: olneyce on November 06, 2011, 12:39:18 pm
Why do they need to do this? I mean, I obviously have no problem with doing this, I just don't understand why it would be necessary.
Because you're playing the game with another human being.  I don't know, this just seems obvious to me. 

It's a game. It's satisfying to actually play games out to conclusion.  It's not just about winning; it's about the process of playing.  Which, as I said, doesn't mean that quitting is in and of itself terrible.  I completely agree that it can be frustrating to just sit there while someone racks up a 50 point lead.  I just think if you're going to leave, it's nice to acknowledge this.  It's obviously not the worst thing in the world, but it does seem like the modestly civil thing to do.

I mean, if you were playing face to face with your friends, you wouldn't just get up and leave in the middle of the game.  You would say "man, I am losing.  Let's just call it a game" or something.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Geronimoo on November 06, 2011, 03:15:39 pm
If I'm playing a lower ranked player and see I'm going to lose I'll say something like "I can't win anymore, I'm going to resign" because some of these players are going to get angry that I stopped them from completing their awesome engine. If I'm playing a +30 I'll just resign, because I know they'll mostly be happy to start a new game faster.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ChaosRed on November 06, 2011, 03:31:41 pm
I'm kinda with olneyce on this, and its one of the reasons playing online isn't half the fun as playing with friends in a real game. I get why, for the sake of efficiency, you dump the game, (don't even bother to congratulate sometimes) and move on to work on your rating. I get the efficiency of that and I even concede that there's no real need to continue, but it certainly is one of the reasons why playing on isotropic is much more sterile experience than playing with friends with a beer and some chips.

I guess it comes down to what you value when playing, for some its clearly to assert dominance on a leader board and to play as many games as possible (and win them hopefully) during the time spent. To some of us, gaming is first and foremost about entertainment and amusement, and those are largely social goals, not competitive ones.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ftl on November 06, 2011, 03:52:00 pm
To some of us, gaming is first and foremost about entertainment and amusement,

Exactly, which is why some of us would leave a game that is no longer entertaining or amusing, to start a new one which might be. Not for 'ratings'.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on November 06, 2011, 05:59:07 pm


It's a game. It's satisfying to actually play games out to conclusion.  It's not just about winning; it's about the process of playing. 

I see people tip their king over in chess all the time instead of playing their game to completion when they know they're going to lose.  I don't play competitive chess, but I'm guessing it would be considered rude to keep playing instead of resigning when it's obvious your opponent is going to beat you.

but then, to many people, chess is all about winning and improving your rank...huh
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 06, 2011, 06:05:32 pm


It's a game. It's satisfying to actually play games out to conclusion.  It's not just about winning; it's about the process of playing. 

I see people tip their king over in chess all the time instead of playing their game to completion when they know they're going to lose.  I don't play competitive chess, but I'm guessing it would be considered rude to keep playing instead of resigning when it's obvious your opponent is going to beat you.

It depends on the situation. If your opponent has launched a mating attack, it's not usually considered rude to play on a couple more moves and let him have his checkmate. If, on the other hand, he's a piece up for nothing and will eventually grind you down in an endgame, it's usually considered a bit discourteous to stretch it out for another 30 moves or so.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: olneyce on November 06, 2011, 07:39:39 pm


It's a game. It's satisfying to actually play games out to conclusion.  It's not just about winning; it's about the process of playing. 

I see people tip their king over in chess all the time instead of playing their game to completion when they know they're going to lose.  I don't play competitive chess, but I'm guessing it would be considered rude to keep playing instead of resigning when it's obvious your opponent is going to beat you.

but then, to many people, chess is all about winning and improving your rank...huh

Sure.  Again, my point was not that resigning is itself the problem.  I just get annoyed when people can't be bothered to mention that they're doing so.  It's just a simple courtesy that communicates the basic message: 'hey, you may be getting some fun out of this, or are learning something about endgames with a big engine, but it's pretty dull on my side so I'm going to check out.'

EDIT: I think the corollary here is that it's a bit rude to keep running out the game to maximize points when you can simply end it on piles or something.  But I would have no problem with someone just saying they would like to play it to the conclusion.  It's the acknowledgement more than the act itself that matters.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on November 06, 2011, 09:50:58 pm
I think it is a bit silly and trite to be bothered by someone resigning without explaining themselves.  It is not at all equitable to running up the score when you could end the game in a win.

If you want to see the decline of civility on the internet go read the comment section of any Yahoo political article.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on November 06, 2011, 11:56:06 pm
23:33 Mean Mr Mustard: >> Point counter disabled.
23:45 Mean Mr Mustard: u mad
23:46 indomitable: nah just wasting time
23:47 Mean Mr Mustard: why are you wasting my time?\
23:47 indomitable: punishment for winning
23:47 Mean Mr Mustard: i haven't done anything to you
23:48 indomitable: you beat me mean Mean Mr. Mustard
23:48 Mean Mr Mustard: i am reporting you to dougz
23:49 indomitable: like i give a shit. its easy to make a new account
23:50 indomitable: you'll probably honestly help me be more productive
23:50 indomitable: this game wastes too much time
23:50 indomitable: so please do it
23:50 Mean Mr Mustard: nice troll.
23:50 indomitable: trollololololollolololol
23:50 indomitable: how does it feel being powerless?
23:50 Mean Mr Mustard: hah
23:51 indomitable: heh
23:51 Mean Mr Mustard: are you outside my house with a tank?
23:51 Mean Mr Mustard: asshat
23:51 indomitable: as much as i'd like to have access to a tank, unfortunately no
23:52 indomitable: is that a common occurrence where you live? do you live in Afghanistan?
23:53 indomitable: i pity the lifestyle you are forced to lead if you do
23:53 indomitable: anyways gg brosephino
23:53 indomitable has returned to the lobby.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: tlloyd on November 07, 2011, 03:26:26 am
I've noticed a lot more early resigning lately. And while I generally agree that people have the right to resign whenever they feel like it, I think the question of courtesy is not so easily answered--especially when it comes to Isotropic. Here are some of the principles that I subscribe to:

1. It is not rude to want to keep playing even after your victory is fairly well-assured.
There's more to playing the game of dominion than reaching the earliest point at which one player has a decisive advantage. The game is not over just because I got more Grand Markets than you. I play not just to win or lose, but to play. That means that if I happen to win the Grand Market race (whether out of luck or skill or the combination), I actually enjoy getting to use the strong deck I've built. That's part of the game! Just because turns 1-10 have left me in a much better position to win doesn't make it rude if I want to play turns 10-16 anyway. This is especially true if the turns are relatively short, so that playing to the end doesn't require a huge sacrifice of anyone's time.

A corollary principle is that it is not necessarily rude to continue racing for big VP cards when you could win by emptying piles. In the group I play with IRL, three-piling is seen as spoiling the game just so you can win. Obviously that's not true generally, and I don't think ending on piles is rude, but I also have no problem with a person who enjoys playing the "let's see who can get the most Provinces" game instead of the "let's see who can force the game to end while they have a narrow lead" game.

A caveat: This principle is only valid if the game is moving to a conclusion at some appreciable pace. If my stronger deck is some nightmare Goons + Watchtower engine where I can continue to rack up points for a long time without actually moving the game towards a resolution (not buying Provinces, let alone three-piling), then dragging the game out starts to feel like rubbing the other guy's nose in your victory--which is obviously bad form. Of course you might feel like my distinction is arbitrary (why can't we play the "let's see how many points I can get" game?), but that's the way I feel.

2. Resigning because you are at a disadvantage can be rude.
When my opponent resigns in this circumstance, it really comes across as their throwing a tantrum because they didn't get to win. Like they're trying to deny me the satisfaction of playing the stronger deck that I was fortunate enough to build. The other day I found myself in a position of having won the race to GMs and the race for Highways. I was set up for a couple massive turns, but the game itself would have taken only a minute or so longer to finish. My opponent's resigning had less to do with how important that minute was to him, and more to do with not wanting me to have the satisfaction of what could have been a very fun couple of turns to play. That's just rude.

Caveat: If you are in the likely-to-lose position, the polite thing to do would be to congratulate your opponent on his play and ask for permission to resign. If it's a long painful curse-filled game, the likely winner is likely to be all-too-happy to accept. If on the other hand the game is nearly over, or if your opponent is on the verge of a mega-turn, he may politely ask that the game continue for another turn or two. It would not be polite, of course, to insist that the opponent continue if the game was either long and painful or (returning to the Goons example) not remotely approaching an end-point.

Corollary to the Caveat: While asking to resign is always preferable to simply resigning, sometimes asking to resign is also preferable to playing on. I have played games to their conclusions that began with my missing out on Familiar the first three times that the potion came through my deck. Those games were painful, and I lost badly. But for as bad a time as I was having, my opponent was having fun. It sucks to get ten curses handed to you, but it sure can be fun to dish out that many. But once I knew I couldn't win, I asked if he wanted to play on. He did, so we did. That's the deal you make when you offer/accept a game of dominion. But if he had no interest in playing out a very slow game with a certain outcome, it was the least I could do to offer my resignation. Was his insistence rude? Maybe. But sometimes courtesy requires disregarding others' discourtesies.

Anyway, that's my take on the resigning issue. It boils down to two points: Dominion is about playing your deck, not just building one. And ask for permission before you resign, because your own immediate fun or frustration is not all that matters.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Geronimoo on November 07, 2011, 04:13:34 am
1. It is not rude to want to keep playing even after your victory is fairly well-assured.
Agree, the opponent can always resign if he wants.
2. Resigning because you are at a disadvantage can be rude.
This conflicts with your first point: It's not rude to drag the game on, but it is rude to put an end to the dragging?
I didn't expect this attitude from a lvl 35. In all competitive games I've played it's the normal thing to do to resign if you're going to lose.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on November 07, 2011, 04:18:05 am
I like to play a certain way, and anyone who doesn't accommodate the way I think Dominion should be played is a sore loser.  Everyone who plays with me makes an unspoken agreement to watch me build and play engines even when there is no chance for them to win.  Furthermore, it would be unacceptable for them to complain while I run up the score instead of making a clean kill.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: chwhite on November 07, 2011, 10:21:04 am
1. It is not rude to want to keep playing even after your victory is fairly well-assured.
Agree, the opponent can always resign if he wants.
2. Resigning because you are at a disadvantage can be rude.
This conflicts with your first point: It's not rude to drag the game on, but it is rude to put an end to the dragging?
I didn't expect this attitude from a lvl 35. In all competitive games I've played it's the normal thing to do to resign if you're going to lose.


I much prefer to play until the end, even in cases where I know I'm going to lose; for me I simply get far more enjoyment out of seeing things through.  I don't begrudge when other people resign, and I get why people do it in games like chess, but that's not my background and each match of Dominion is over so quickly, so why not finish?

I do think that three-piling when you know you're ahead is the courteous thing to do; if I know I can end the game this turn by running out piles then I'll try to do so.  OTOH I don't think it's an unpardonable offense if I (or my opponent) misses that; for instance, in games without point counters the person who's leading may not be secure enough in their knowledge of that to end the game prematurely, and I'm sure most of us have had turns where we're going on autopilot and just flat-out miss the chance to end it.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ackack on November 07, 2011, 10:50:54 am
Yeah, I really wonder how much of it is people's previous chess background. Having played a lot of internet chess back in the day, resigning in hopeless spots seems super natural to me.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Geronimoo on November 07, 2011, 11:17:33 am
If not chess, than Magic the Gathering where it's also commonly accepted (and desired) to concede when you're going to lose.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: tlloyd on November 07, 2011, 12:28:02 pm
1. It is not rude to want to keep playing even after your victory is fairly well-assured.
Agree, the opponent can always resign if he wants.
2. Resigning because you are at a disadvantage can be rude.
This conflicts with your first point: It's not rude to drag the game on, but it is rude to put an end to the dragging?

I don't know what else to say other than that there is clearly not a conflict between saying "it's not rude to play on" and "it can be rude to cut the game short."

Quote
I didn't expect this attitude from a lvl 35. In all competitive games I've played it's the normal thing to do to resign if you're going to lose.

This is the view I was trying to address by saying that there is more to the game than reaching the point where the ending seems certain. There is also, you know, playing the game. I don't expect everyone to feel the same way--that's why I posted in the first place. Given that some people want to play to the end just for the fun, and others want the game to end as soon as the outcome is sure, the two principles I explained help us play with each other civilly. If you are no longer interested in the rest of the game, you have the right to unilaterally end it--but that doesn't mean that doing so would be courteous.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: tlloyd on November 07, 2011, 12:40:14 pm
I like to play a certain way, and anyone who doesn't accommodate the way I think Dominion should be played is a sore loser.  Everyone who plays with me makes an unspoken agreement to watch me build and play engines even when there is no chance for them to win.  Furthermore, it would be unacceptable for them to complain while I run up the score instead of making a clean kill.

If you have a real disagreement with what I said, express it like a grown-up. Your tone here confirms my suspicion that most early resignations are really in the form of pouting.

What I actually said was that a player who feels sure he is going to lose and no longer wants to play should politely ask to resign rather than doing so unilaterally. That's courteous, because the other player may want the game to continue for valid reasons. Having made the request, I would imagine in most cases the winning player would happily accept and the game would end just as the losing player wanted. The difference is the manner in which it happened, which is of course what courtesy is all about.

If the game is very nearly over, or if the winning player wants to enjoy his mega-turn that he's been building up to the whole game, the winning player may ask for the game to continue for a short while. That is not rude. I don't see that continuing for another minute or so is imposing a great inconvenience on the losing player, who after all agreed to play a game of dominion! However, it would be rude for the winning player to insist that the game continue if the ending is nowhere in sight.

I think in general if you can win the game on your turn, you should--rather than dragging the game on. But I am happy to forgive someone who fails to see the three-pile ending because his paradigm is "buy the most provinces."
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on November 07, 2011, 12:46:23 pm

should politely ask to resign rather than doing so unilaterally.

Just so you all know, if I ever start playing online again, you never need to ask my permission to instantly force me to win the game.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ChaosRed on November 07, 2011, 01:00:13 pm
There's a machismo to gaming culture. I get that and its been part of gaming since I've been involved in it (and that goes back a few decades now).

It's not why I game though, while I love a little friendly-smack talk, it's pretty meaningless to me, if it isn't laid down with a lot of mutual respect and some genuine admiration for your opponent. At that point, it becomes hilarious, because there's a real friendship underneath that makes the barbs more playful and part of the "meta-game" which I've always enjoyed.

But that's just "how I roll", I've always seen gaming as a social exercise. The game itself is secondary (and really I can substitute any number of them just as happily). To others, what I just typed seems like an affront to what they see as valuable and worthwhile to gaming. To them, they have something to prove, something to vital to prove and their play is an extension of that. They resent players who don't "commit" to the game like they do. They value acumen and a professional quality when gaming. I get that, I even admire it to a degree, but I don't like to game that way. I like to WORK that way, but when I play, I like to bust out the beer and pretzels.

I have resigned from games. I have done so, when I've fucked up badly. When I do that, I fear I'm giving my opponent a lousy game. I simply ask if I may resign, and if they agree, we move on. But I've also seen people want to resign around turn 10, simply because I got a couple of lucky draws, or because they got a few bad ones. Some isotropic users want to rack up as many wins, in as short a time as possible. This "efficiency" is a large part of their focus.

I think that's all well-and-good, but its not why I game. I game for a few laughs and some intrigue and to enjoy a well-designed, well-balanced game. I don't think my attitude is superior (far from it, in many ways, my approach makes the game secondary, so you could argue its an inferior attitude), but I also think we all need to recognize people game for different reasons, with different personality-types.

I just tend to remember the laughs and friendships more than the actual results of the game, over the long haul.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on November 07, 2011, 02:10:53 pm

should politely ask to resign rather than doing so unilaterally.

Just so you all know, if I ever start playing online again, you never need to ask my permission to instantly force me to win the game.

I loll'ed

tlloyd, I think you're looking at things wrong.  It's very often possible that the odds of you winning the game comes to zero or scientific insignificance.  If you want me to stay at the table and play my cards, how do you want me to do so?  Do you want me to play them in a way that mimics how you play in games that could go either way, or do you want me to buy curses every turn?  If there's no way I can win, it's no longer possible to play the game.  I can consider buying a militia to slow you down but lose to duchies or to buy a duchy and lose to your provinces, but either way I lose and once I know that I can't apply a value judgment and select choices based on maximizing my odds of winning, which is what playing a game is.  If you want to play your big crazy engine, play it after I leave the table.  Petition isotropic to allow turns and plays to continue after the game ends.  There's no longer any need for a human opponent for you to get any value out of the rest of the game, so I no longer feel a need to be there.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: greatexpectations on November 07, 2011, 02:51:24 pm
a few of my thoughts on the subjects being discussed. as a note, i don't have any background with chess or magic. my competitive background is based largely in baseball, track, and having brothers.

- outside of when real life situations dictated, i don't think i have ever resigned more than 3 or 4 games. i will scrap and fight to the very end.  once i am mathematically out of it though i won't drag things out, i will usually just help end the game. playing out games, even a bad loss, doesn't usually bother me. (though to be fair i didn't even know how to resign until i had played a few hundred games) i have found i can learn useful things by changing my strategies when behind and observing what my opponent did.

- that being said, i don't care at all if you resign or whether you acknowledge me at all in doing so. we have all had stinkers of games, and though we play against strangers we do have our pride. i can see the rationale of just wanting to duck out if you are getting stomped or if you are frustrated by some rough luck.

- you built a cool engine and want to see it play out?  note the cards of that board and then go play solitaire mode. wanting your opponent to stick around so that you can have a grand climax to certain victory is little more than vanity.  you know how it is going to play out; you had some idea of what the result would be when you designed the engine after all.

- i think that if you can win the game on piles you should. if you have a decisive lead, respect your opponent's pride and time and move to end the game quickly. the better players out there should have a good eye for what the score is and how close the game is to ending anyway.

- i feel silly for having to bring this up, but treat others like you want to be treated.  you will win more people to your style of respect/disrespect by regularly displaying it in your gameplay than you will by discussing it here. if you want to see change, lead the way every time. when resigning, compliment your opponent on their superior strategy and don't ever use the word luck. thank people for playing when you win. i doubt people started saying "gg" because they read it on a forum.  they probably saw a large number of other players use it and determined it was an appropriate and courteous response.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on November 07, 2011, 04:59:41 pm
I like to play a certain way, and anyone who doesn't accommodate the way I think Dominion should be played is a sore loser.  Everyone who plays with me makes an unspoken agreement to watch me build and play engines even when there is no chance for them to win.  Furthermore, it would be unacceptable for them to complain while I run up the score instead of making a clean kill.

Man, if this board were tolerant of image macros, I'd totally throw up a some sort of troll face right here.  Well-played, sir. :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on November 07, 2011, 05:44:24 pm
I like to play a certain way, and anyone who doesn't accommodate the way I think Dominion should be played is a sore loser.  Everyone who plays with me makes an unspoken agreement to watch me build and play engines even when there is no chance for them to win.  Furthermore, it would be unacceptable for them to complain while I run up the score instead of making a clean kill.

You're almost right... except it's anyone who doesn't accommodate *me*!!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on November 07, 2011, 07:00:16 pm
No brah, it's my rules.  No resigning until the end, except for if you have lots of curses, or one person got drowned by pirate ships, or if I'm militiaing you every turn.  (but not if I'm goonsing you every turn, then you need to ask permission to leave and I might say, "No, I want you to sit and watch me score 25 points in one turn").

If you were playing engine and I totally busted it apart with an Ambassador engine, you can leave, but first you have to tell me how good at dominion I am and how clever I was to take your nobles deck apart with coppers.

But if I'm upset because you Saboteured one of my Provinces, it's totally fine for me to leave without asking, that's just a given.

EDIT: It's hard to parody when the source material is already so exaggerated..
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: tlloyd on November 07, 2011, 08:20:04 pm
You guys lose all credibility on the topic of civility when you can't even discuss the topic civilly. Being sarcastic doesn't make your opinion any more important or correct. You can go on resigning whenever it pleases you, without regard to what your opponent thinks, but if you don't care about what your opponent thinks, then why are you wasting everyone's time trolling a discussion on civility?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rrenaud on November 07, 2011, 08:30:14 pm
Keep in mind that this is a textual discussion on the internet.  The tone in jokes is often missed, lots of information is lost when messages are textualized.  It's the reason emoticons exist.  Comments made in a not totally serious manner are often misinterpreted to be completely serious.

For the most part ( :) ), you are all reasonable people.  Act in good faith.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on November 07, 2011, 08:45:21 pm
tlloyd, i think you're mostly a pretty reasonable guy.  I assure you that if you had the background i have, you would be unable to take tlloyd seriously.  It's just, not possible.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: guided on November 07, 2011, 09:14:40 pm
There is no room in my worldview for the idea that prompt (unilateral) resignation on isotropic is ever less than OK. It's simply not my prerogative to force anyone to spend their time losing the game on my terms, no matter how disappointed I might be if I'm not allowed to complete my plans for some neat engine I'm building.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on November 07, 2011, 09:29:13 pm
This is what this discussion makes me think of:
http://basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2007/2/18/how-to-exhibit-good-form.html

But seriously tlloyd, you really think that a losing player needs to ask "May I please resign?"
In what circumstances would it possibly be justified / civil for someone to say "No, I refuse to accept your resignation."?
And if the question can only have one answer, why bother asking it?

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: dondon151 on November 07, 2011, 09:30:41 pm
Well, I think that requesting a resignation doesn't communicate the air of "ragequit" that a sudden resignation does, and both parties will walk off a little happier. Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on November 07, 2011, 09:32:49 pm
I am 5-8-1 against you tlloyd and I would welcome a game with you anytime, but please don't be offended if I resign.  Take it instead as a <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110626-015004-1b5b44c6.html>sign of respect.</a>
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on November 07, 2011, 09:37:38 pm
tlloyd very clearly indicated in his posts that he thinks it is acceptable to refuse someone's request for resignation.

Please pay attention.  We have to fully understand the delusions to cure them.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Aeglos on November 08, 2011, 12:31:09 am
Just played someone who was slow-playing so blatantly, and by his own admission, that I felt like I had to note it somewhere, and I couldn't find a "report abuse" button.  So I created an account here.  I reproduce for you, below, the entirety of what he said to me during our game.

0:11 indomitable: since you'll win it next turn by caravan and bazaar, i'll make sure to drag this turn out niiiiiiiice and long
0:13 indomitable: alright i'm heading off. enjoy the wait to make me resign
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jimmmmm on November 08, 2011, 12:39:45 am
This guy seems like a real class act. You're the third person who's reported having problems with him.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ftl on November 08, 2011, 12:59:28 am
Now *that's* what 'decline of civility' is like. :(

That seems even more annoying than Paralyzed to me, who at least played the game. Do people get banned off isotropic?

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: biopower on November 08, 2011, 01:06:56 am
Now *that's* what 'decline of civility' is like. :(

That seems even more annoying than Paralyzed to me, who at least played the game. Do people get banned off isotropic?

The problem with bans on the internet: it affects either
A)the account, in which case a new one may simply be made, or
B)the IP address, in which case a new one may easily be acquired.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on November 08, 2011, 01:24:34 am
You force a reset on his rank, at least.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jimmmmm on November 08, 2011, 01:30:30 am
True. Given that he's level 31, he's probably not going to be happy with starting from 0 again. Could even be enough to scare him away, who knows.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on November 08, 2011, 01:37:14 am
Send some league of legends and world of warcraft ads to his email account for good measure.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ftl on November 08, 2011, 01:48:53 am
No, please don't do that. He's being a jerk, but that's no reason to violate his privacy and share his email address with marketers.

I actually was curious whether isotropic has anything in particular in place to deal with guys like this. I guess I'll just remember not to accept any games with him.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: tlloyd on November 08, 2011, 02:14:46 am
tlloyd very clearly indicated in his posts that he thinks it is acceptable to refuse someone's request for resignation.

Please pay attention.  We have to fully understand the delusions to cure them.

I also very clearly indicated when it might be legitimate to do "refuse," though I did not use that term, and when it would be just as rude as resigning unilaterally. Either you guys aren't bothering to read my whole posts, or you are deliberately ignoring aspects that don't make me look like a total raving lunatic. Here's a recap:

If A resigns unilaterally, B may legitimately feel slighted. Maybe not. Who knows. The point of courtesy is to take into consideration what others may feel and act as if those feelings matter.

If A offers to resign (rather than doing so unilaterally), and B accepts, the outcome is no different but the manner in which it was conducted is very different. [see Dondon151's response to Barsooma]. You may not feel that way, but if you can't understand that someone else might feel that way, there's probably no point in your continuing to participate in a discussion of courtesy.

If A offers to resign, B may ask that A allow the game to continue briefly. Why would he do such a terrible thing? Maybe he knows that he can end the game on his turn. Maybe he can't, but wants to actually enjoy playing with the deck that he has successfully built. Who knows. My point is that (1) wanting to continue is not illegitimate in all circumstances, and (2) when the game will only continue for a minute or two, the losing player has not been unfairly burdened.

Of course, in many circumstances refusing a request to resign would discourteous (and futile). There's no hard and fast rule for this--all I am suggesting is that the players talk about it before ending the game on their own terms (I'm not suggesting you have to ask permission to buy the last province).

If your stance is "I will resign whenever I please without regard to whether my opponent would prefer the game to continue for some reasonable amount of time, AND I refuse even to politely ask to withdraw before doing so," you are well within your rights. But it's hard to see how that can be courteous, given how little effort it takes to (1) ask to resign and (2) possibly play for another minute.

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: biopower on November 08, 2011, 03:10:29 am
Either you guys aren't bothering to read my whole posts, or [...] me look like a total raving lunatic.

Joking aside, the problem is that your advocacy is simply not competitive with unilateral resignation. The disadvantage to unilateral resignation (the opponent feels slighted) is simply too unlikely to be considered. You could advocate consulting your best friend before every move on the basis that s/he might feel slighted if left out, but the probability that the friend feels slighted is too miniscule to consider. In the same way, it's improbable that someone will feel slighted after an unilateral resignation simply because this specific instance of resignation is not unique; people resign unilaterally all the time for reasons other than losing.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on November 08, 2011, 03:13:13 am
I feel like it is dishonest for me to ask for permission to resign if I'm going to do it anyway if you say no.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on November 08, 2011, 03:21:31 am
I will say that I find resigning without comment at all a bit rude/uncivil.  At least type gg as you resign; it shows you're not ragequitting.  Or, in other words:  Don't be Idra.

But unilateral resignation itself should never be considered uncivil.  We all should feel free to do so.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: dondon151 on November 08, 2011, 03:32:06 am
I feel like it is dishonest for me to ask for permission to resign if I'm going to do it anyway if you say no.

The response that you receive isn't the important part. When you meet someone and ask them "what's up," do you actually want to know exactly what's up? It's the gesture that matters.

Reminds me a little bit of those Budweiser commercials where a bunch of guys say "how ya' doin'" to each other and a newcomer actually responds to their question seriously and comes off as a tool as a result.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on November 08, 2011, 04:38:53 am
I mean what's up whenever i ask someone what's up..
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: octopus on November 08, 2011, 05:16:07 am
I only get annoyed if someone quits by hitting exit and then timing out so I have to force resign them.  This is my understanding of a ragequit.  If they actually take the time to wait for the beginning of their turn to hit the resign button, I already consider that a courtesy, regardless of whether or not they say gg.  The problem seems worse in 3p/4p games. 

Afterthought: In some cases it might be due to players not knowing how to resign.  A permanently visible resign button might help that.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on November 08, 2011, 09:44:16 am
I feel like it is dishonest for me to ask for permission to resign if I'm going to do it anyway if you say no.

I can understand tlloyd's point.

I would not be interested in asking if I may resign, because what would I do if the winner says "no"? I'd either have to endure his game, whether I want to or not, or I'd have to be a dick and resign anyway.

Instead, I would make an open-ended comment. I'd say, "You've got this one. I'll save us both the trouble and resign." But, I wouldn't resign right away. Give the opponent sufficient time to read that and respond. If he doesn't come back with, "Would you mind if I finish up these last two turns?" then I'd resign.

That at least puts the onus on the winner. He can ask the loser for permission to finish up the game. The loser can either accommodate the winner and let him play out his awesome hand, or the loser can politely decline and resign anyway.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: chwhite on November 08, 2011, 09:52:20 am
The problem seems worse in 3p/4p games. 

Ah, multiplayer!  I don't so much have a problem with people resigning in 2p (though, as mentioned above, I personally find it unnatural and don't really ever do it myself), but resigning in 3p/4p is legitimately discourteous, pretty much always- because the game doesn't end, but multiple people have to keep playing, with a stack of 12 Provinces to empty and possibly running a deck specifically tailored to multiplayer games.  I think people who are advocating that resignation is always okay need to step back and think about the 3p/4p case, and also consider that us non-resigning people may be coming from a background of mostly multiplayer games, rather than competitive chess or Magic.

FWIW if it's 2p and one person wants to resign I think the courteous thing to do is ask permission or at least inform the other player, but I do agree that if the player who's leading says "no I wanna keep playing" then yeah that's pretty much always a dick move. 
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Reyk on November 08, 2011, 10:18:49 am
The problem seems worse in 3p/4p games. 
I think people who are advocating that resignation is always okay need to step back and think about the 3p/4p case

It is always ok in 2p games (the vast majority of games on iso and that's what people are advocating). And it is never ok in 3p/4p (except force majeure etc.) -> one of my reasons to play 2p games with only few exceptions. Imho pretty straight forward.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: guided on November 08, 2011, 10:52:33 am
I firmly disagree that it would ever be courteous to refuse somebody's resignation. Again: It's not my prerogative to expect you to play out a losing game. My feeling slighted out of a turn or three of my rad engine is not inherently more virtuous than your boredom or dejection about playing out a losing string; it would simply be presumptuous for me to assign my feelings more virtue than yours.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Copernicus on November 08, 2011, 11:03:38 am
I only get annoyed if someone quits by hitting exit and then timing out so I have to force resign them.  This is my understanding of a ragequit.  If they actually take the time to wait for the beginning of their turn to hit the resign button, I already consider that a courtesy, regardless of whether or not they say gg.  The problem seems worse in 3p/4p games. 

Afterthought: In some cases it might be due to players not knowing how to resign.  A permanently visible resign button might help that.

I thought exit auto-resigned the player as soon as it was an option for them to do so.  I've also had people resign on me as soon as the game gave them a choice (in the middle of my long action string that ended with an attack), which I assumed was from previously hitting exit.


And yes, resigning in 3/4 player games is a problem due to how many cards are available and the power level of various cards that change.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: chwhite on November 08, 2011, 11:31:27 am
I firmly disagree that it would ever be courteous to refuse somebody's resignation. Again: It's not my prerogative to expect you to play out a losing game. My feeling slighted out of a turn or three of my rad engine is not inherently more virtuous than your boredom or dejection about playing out a losing string; it would simply be presumptuous for me to assign my feelings more virtue than yours.

If it's a 2p game, I more or less agree with you.  In multiplayer, no way.  If you resign in mulitplayer, you're not just making your opponent "slighted out of a turn or three of my rad engine", you're upsetting the game balance for more than one other players, who presumably have to keep playing in an artifical environment (2p 12 Provinces!) that they didn't sign up for (because they agreed to play a specifically 3 or 4 player game).  In that case, you're assigning your feelings more virtue than the feelings of at least two other people.

Slightly OT: I wish multiplayer games were more frequent on Iso, btw.  It's a different experience and I do feel that playing exclusively 2p means you're missing a big part of Dominion.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Karrow on November 08, 2011, 11:37:25 am
There's not much that is more more game-changing than an early drop in 3-player.  I've been stuck in a few curse games that had the 3rd player drop early.  20 curses and 12 provinces can be painful.

But i just shrug it off.  His mom probably just told him it's bedtime and closed his laptop on him.  It's just another kingdom variant.  The winner will be the one who best adapts to the board and plays the best strategy, just like every other kingdom.

I think the big thing to remember in all of this is that it's just a game, have fun.

Rage-quitters can be fun too.  I remember in Magic the Gathering when there was finally enough different counterspell forms to make a 100% counterspell deck (+mana of course).  I built it, and I was undefeated with it.  Keep in mind the deck had no way to win.  Not one single card in it was for the purpose of winning.  I repeatedly refused advice to at least put a single creature or graveyard recycling card in it.  It wan't needed.  It was simply a metagaming tool against the rage-quitters.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ChaosRed on November 08, 2011, 11:41:39 am
For the record, I do decline invites sometimes. Most of the time, its because its a Colony game and I'm just not at that skill level to handle it, (and in general I dislike Colony games, I feel they warp the game's elegance and simplicity). I'd be more communicative about the decline, but that's not the easiest thing to communicate on isotropic. If the same opponent comes back with an invite without Colony I'll gladly accept.

I feel I should have some control over what games I indulge in. I don't want to be rude, but Prosperity is not a set I care to learn right now, and even when I do, I can tell you it will easily remain my most disliked set.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Buggz on November 08, 2011, 11:51:50 am
its because its a Colony game and I'm just not at that skill level to handle it
You know, there's one excellent way to fix that..  :P
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 08, 2011, 11:52:25 am
I think I'd like to play you at some point, ChaosRed. Our playstyles seem to be different enough to make it a really fascinating clash of approaches.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ChaosRed on November 08, 2011, 12:09:16 pm
You know, there's one excellent way to fix that..  :P

Yeah, I could learn to tolerate pain better by pouring iodine into a paper cut too. :)

I don't like the design of Prosperity. In MLB Showdown we banned the cards generated in 2002 in our local league. In GOSU we have a house rule about how many turns you can take when your opponent passes. In Pathfinder, we simplified some of the combat rules for faster, leaner combat and we generally skew our sessions to lower levels. In MMOs, I tend to exclusively hang out on RP servers and ignore power-gaming completely. I guess I'm used to (and feel entitled to) cater my gaming experience to taste.

I would be more civil about the refusal, if there was a simpler mechanism to do that. But I feel I have some right to ensure the game I'm about to play is enjoyable and Colony games, are not to my taste. Actually, when I originally started I biased my selection to base set (its my favorite set by far, because I find it simple and elegant). I did really well when I did this. But then I felt this was a tad unfair, so I changed this.

I do wind up playing Colony games sometimes, when I am offered a veto game. When I get a veto game, I always veto "random", so that I am not purposely vetoing nasty attacks. So that's when I get "stuck" with a Colony game.

I hope that doesn't come across as arrogant, it's just a preference thing.

I think I'd like to play you at some point, ChaosRed. Our playstyles seem to be different enough to make it a really fascinating clash of approaches.

Of course, I'd love that! You'd likely kick my ass though. I have two types of wins:

1. I play a player clearly less skilled than me, usually several levels lower and clearly from the outset not quite ready to truly compete on isotropic, even with the likes of me.

2. The board is easy to read and in this case, if I win, I win narrowly, or I win because I got the slightly luckier draw at the end to grab the win. I win a lot by just 1 or 2 points in games like this.

I tend to lose when the board has a subtle or complex engine I don't see, or I fuck up (which happens a lot). My play style is usually pretty simple. I rarely build a complex engine, I usually reach for obvious and well-known tactics (I recently won with double JOAT+BM), and I tend to lean towards treasure heavily (in fact I tend to lose most when I fail to do that). I think this is why I often get accused of being "lucky" by higher-ranked players, because it's usually pretty obvious what I am up to and its rarely elegant or subtle...but if I'm lucky it is sometimes effective.

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ackack on November 08, 2011, 12:26:02 pm
It is always ok in 2p games (the vast majority of games on iso and that's what people are advocating). And it is never ok in 3p/4p (except force majeure etc.) -> one of my reasons to play 2p games with only few exceptions. Imho pretty straight forward.

Seems about right.

As an aside, Dominion feels a lot like Scrabble to me. You can play both multiplayer, but the multiplayer experience seems a lot more random and less competitive. I'd give multi more of a shot if there were separate ratings for it (or if I were playing live) but since I'm primarily interested in the 2p game I haven't felt the need to really experiment with it.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on November 08, 2011, 02:20:00 pm
I firmly disagree that it would ever be courteous to refuse somebody's resignation. Again: It's not my prerogative to expect you to play out a losing game. My feeling slighted out of a turn or three of my rad engine is not inherently more virtuous than your boredom or dejection about playing out a losing string; it would simply be presumptuous for me to assign my feelings more virtue than yours.

Well put. 


I'll happily stick around to play out a multiplayer game, if I somehow got into the multiplayer game in the first place (they're not my favorite).  I can understand wanting someone to make things play out mor normally.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on November 08, 2011, 02:22:14 pm
its because its a Colony game and I'm just not at that skill level to handle it
You know, there's one excellent way to fix that..  :P
Realize that colony games DON'T require more skill than non-colony games, just  somewhat different set of skills?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ChaosRed on November 08, 2011, 02:52:54 pm
The fact that it is different, makes it more difficult for a novice player like me. Also the design becomes warped (in my opinion), to a rather fast, elegant pursuit of Provinces, to a rather laborious and cumbersome accumulation of both Provinces and Colonies. Prosperity also tends to reward the "mega-turn" deck, which I find really boring. It's a matter of taste really, rather than debate. We can argue until we're blue in the face as to whether a corporate Molson in a brown bottle is vastly inferior to some dusty micro-brew on tap. The beer snob can point to all kinds of reasoning and argument, but my taste buds will still disagree with him. :)

At some point I may acquire the taste, but right now, I am simply not interested.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on November 08, 2011, 02:53:58 pm
its because its a Colony game and I'm just not at that skill level to handle it
You know, there's one excellent way to fix that..  :P
Realize that colony games DON'T require more skill than non-colony games, just  somewhat different set of skills?

None of which I have :(

Since there's a tangent here anyway, do you think colony games are more variant or less variant than province games?  I ask this not to whine, but because I want to know how much doubt to cast on the success/failure of a strategy I try out.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rrenaud on November 08, 2011, 02:56:35 pm
I am pretty convinced there is more skill in a Colony game than a Province game for basically the same reason that there is more skill involved in winning a best of 3 series of Dominion games than just a single Dominion game.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: guided on November 08, 2011, 02:57:34 pm
If it's a 2p game, I more or less agree with you.
That's all I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on November 08, 2011, 02:59:24 pm
That's not "more skill", as in, a broader body of knowledge you need to master.  It's "less variant" or "better sample size" or "better skill:luck ratio in game result".

I'll stick to workshops against colonies, then.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ackack on November 08, 2011, 03:02:57 pm
I am pretty convinced there is more skill in a Colony game than a Province game for basically the same reason that there is more skill involved in winning a best of 3 series of Dominion games than just a single Dominion game.
Extending the average length of the game a couple of turns is not going to be a big contribution. And this also neglects that Platinum likely increases the swinginess. (added: as another example of this sort of thing, Mountebank games will be quite a bit longer than an average no-attack Province game. But I bet they also reward the skilled player less than average, even though there are a few more turns for things to even out.)

I think WanderingWinder is right that Colony games and Province games reward slightly different skill sets. I also think that most good Dominion players are inclined toward finding the engine-biased Colony game more interesting and more exemplary of what they consider skill.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: octopus on November 08, 2011, 05:01:47 pm
I have a 2p account and got it up to the mid-20's, but then I found I was obsessing over my rank too much and so decided to play a bunch of unranked games under this new alias.  I soon found I enjoyed the 3p/4p games quite a lot, and so decided to register the account, and my ranking soon shot back up to the mid-20's.  All of my ranked games with it are 3p/4p.  It's especially convenient with the gmail and yahoo options: gmail is 2p, yahoo is 3p/4p, and I just click on the account type I want. 

I find that player psychology is a lot more important in multiplayer games.  The lowest-ranked player can end up being a kingmaker, and being aware of this adds a neat dynamic.  If that includes them resigning, then so be it... at least it means I won't come in last place.  The 12 provinces or colonies vs. 8 isn't such a big deal, you just have to accomodate more cards in your deck.  Besides, if there's 2 people left, I get to play 50% of the time, and that can be a slight quality-of-play bonus. 

There are games I've lost in 3rd place against two level 0's that I would never lose in 2p.  I wouldn't say it's because 3p/4p is more swingy, it's just that you generally need more than card counting and minmaxing to win.  I wish more high-level players would play 3p/4p... then I could restrict the opponent rank to +/- 5 levels like I do with 2p.  Things I like about multiplayer are that all attack cards become more interesting, and choices about cards that involve the player to your left or right are also interesting, because their effect can depend on the skill of those players, e.g. smugglers, possession, and even envoy.

Back on topic: the only type of resign I find aggravating, even in multiplayer games, is when I have to wait for 3 minutes.  It's possibly worse in multiplayer games because then 2 or 3 people have to wait for 3 minutes.  I think that in an unknown number of cases it isn't because the person is being passive aggressive, so I'm not going to comment on whether they're being rude or not.  Maybe they just close the tab without thinking about it.  I'm not sure what the exit link does.  If it's the same as resigning, why bother having the resign button at all?  (I've never resigned from a game except once when my connection died.)  And since I can force resign people in the middle of my turn, I think anyone should be able to resign at any point in the game; having to wait for the beginning of your turn seems arbitrary and more likely to induce the 3-minute timeouts.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: fp on November 10, 2011, 09:10:45 am
I just want to confess that I've certainly thrown my mouth at players who start to berate me for playing too slow when I am able to draw my whole deck (and in general they are not).

Anyone else lost it in this case?

The funny thing is that I tell them I am one of the fastest players around, and they laugh at me.

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on November 11, 2011, 09:48:25 pm
I am very happy to report that tlloyd and I played a three game match last night and he was a great sport.  Respec.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on November 13, 2011, 01:58:29 am
I am very happy to report that tlloyd and I played a three game match last night and he was a great sport.  Respec.

Respec?  But I like playing feral!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Graystripe77 on November 15, 2011, 01:56:58 pm
And another, i made him resign, he didn't say anything until right after i resigned him:

13:52 th2w0: wow
13:53 th2w0: GRAY
13:53 th2w0: FUCK YOU
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Epoch on November 15, 2011, 02:32:57 pm
Yeah, anybody who expects me to ask permission to resign is going to be sadly disappointed.  In 2p, which is all I play.  On the flip-side, I don't like to ask people to hurry through their turn so that I can resign more quickly, either.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: fellowmartian on November 21, 2011, 06:56:42 am
A game just now.
Quote
0:42 theron: simpel 2/5 start end viktory
0:42 Fang: you could have gone watchtower
0:42 Fang: that's a hard counter to margrave
0:43 Fang: instead of black market and no trashers
0:43 theron: ???
0:43 Fang: there was for example no point you picking up crossroads
0:44 Fang: If I was you, I'd have gone for watchtower and hamlets asap
0:44 Fang: and gone for the margrave with my first $5 instead of laboratory
0:44 theron: hey you get the Margrave and tje Hamlet and also the most Peddler what the fuck tell you for a shit???
0:44 Fang: I'm just giving you some friendly advice
0:45 Fang: there are things you could have done
0:45 theron: you telling simply shit i had no chance in this game because of your 2/5 start thjats the simple true
0:45 Fang: that's not even slightly true.
0:46 theron: if i had the 2/5 star i will witrh this cards simply win
0:46 Fang: really.
0:46 theron: and you too
0:46 Fang: I hate players like you
0:47 Fang: who blame luck when they plainly had no idea what they are doing
0:47 Fang: when you bought poition/bm... why?
0:47 Fang: potion
0:47 theron: and i hate players like you
0:47 Fang: for learning the game?
0:47 Fang: resign now then, and rematch
0:48 theron: make your turn ready than i can give up and you can be proud of your wisdomm
He then refused to play a rematch with identical starting hands.

Grr, yes, something you get bad shuffle luck, but people who use that as an excuse when they played badly throughout... so damn annoying.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/20/game-20111020-164827-cc1d3235.html

Yeah I had an odd one from that player. On a 5/2 I opened with Embargo/Ghost Ship while s/he went for a potion. When I embargoed the Alchemists, s/he accused me of being aggressive (okay, maybe slightly but understandably), said I just play dominion to make the  other player feel small and myself powerful, and basically said players like me spoil the game.

S/he then proceeded to buy more Ghost ships and attack cards and beat me, lol...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Lekkit on November 21, 2011, 07:30:42 am
Just played this game (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/21/game-20111121-042219-e5ccec59.html), which I won and my opponent wanted to have a little chat with me.

13:22 Bubs: stupid novice
13:22 Lekkit: ?
13:22 Bubs has returned to the lobby.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: AJD on November 23, 2011, 01:33:52 am
This isn't a "civility" issue per se, but my opponent bought the last Province and the following baffling exchange happened:

Quote
The game is over! (All Provinces are gone.)
AJD has 24 points (4 Provinces) and took 12 turns.
v3ck has 20 points (4 Provinces and 4 Curses) and took 12 turns.

1:28 v3ck: ? ? ? ? ? ?
1:28 AJD: ...What do you mean?
1:28 v3ck: weird shuffles?
1:29 v3ck has returned to the lobby.

No, v3ck, it wasn't weird shuffles; it was I bought a Witch and you didn't. What did you think was going to happen?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jack Rudd on November 25, 2011, 04:11:00 pm
21:06 Rambo888: what a piece of shit you are
21:08 Rambo888: lol
21:09 Rambo888: faggot , got scared
21:09 Rambo888: aww
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mergus on November 30, 2011, 11:49:36 pm
21:36 Copper-nicus: f u!
21:36 [MAD] Mergus: ?
21:36 Copper-nicus: JEW HEARD ME!
21:38 Copper-nicus: !!!
21:38 Copper-nicus: focus!
21:44 Copper-nicus: [MAD] Gay
21:46 Copper-nicus: [MAD] Slow
21:46 Copper-nicus: [MAD] Retarded
21:46 Copper-nicus: haha
21:47 Copper-nicus: [MAD] Sucky
21:47 Copper-nicus: Do any of these handles appeal to you?
21:47 Copper-nicus: I'm thinking of changing mine so I can fit in...
21:48 Copper-nicus: [MAD] Indecisive
21:48 Copper-nicus: haha
21:48 Copper-nicus: fag
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: permanoob on December 01, 2011, 12:35:45 am
When Isotropic is replaced with some method of playing dominion that requires payment, I assume most of these people will be gone.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: v3ck on December 01, 2011, 01:53:36 am
This isn't a "civility" issue per se, but my opponent bought the last Province and the following baffling exchange happened:

Quote
The game is over! (All Provinces are gone.)
AJD has 24 points (4 Provinces) and took 12 turns.
v3ck has 20 points (4 Provinces and 4 Curses) and took 12 turns.

1:28 v3ck: ? ? ? ? ? ?
1:28 AJD: ...What do you mean?
1:28 v3ck: weird shuffles?
1:29 v3ck has returned to the lobby.

No, v3ck, it wasn't weird shuffles; it was I bought a Witch and you didn't. What did you think was going to happen?

I was distracted and something got mixed up in my head, then said something rather odd. I admit that I do that occasionally. However, it really doesn't belong in this thread (even if you say it isn't really a civility issue). I don't appreciate being disgraced by being quoted among the people saying things like "fuck you", "faggot", and "piece of shit".
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: AJD on December 01, 2011, 02:10:49 am
This isn't a "civility" issue per se, but my opponent bought the last Province and the following baffling exchange happened:

Quote
The game is over! (All Provinces are gone.)
AJD has 24 points (4 Provinces) and took 12 turns.
v3ck has 20 points (4 Provinces and 4 Curses) and took 12 turns.

1:28 v3ck: ? ? ? ? ? ?
1:28 AJD: ...What do you mean?
1:28 v3ck: weird shuffles?
1:29 v3ck has returned to the lobby.

No, v3ck, it wasn't weird shuffles; it was I bought a Witch and you didn't. What did you think was going to happen?

I was distracted and something got mixed up in my head, then said something rather odd. I admit that I do that occasionally. However, it really doesn't belong in this thread (even if you say it isn't really a civility issue). I don't appreciate being disgraced by being quoted among the people saying things like "fuck you", "faggot", and "piece of shit".

I apologize for that, v3ck; you don't deserve that. In my defense, perhaps, I did note at the top of my post that you hadn't been uncivil; I was just perplexed by your comment.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Manto on December 01, 2011, 02:35:32 am
Whats your guys take on offering advice to new players?

For example, sometime ago I played against someone who is registered but not yet ranked.  He proceeded to load up on villages and caravans and didn't pick up any Gold until I've started greening, which was a common mistake new players make.  When the game ended, he made a comment that he had bad shuffles and didn't get good draws.

I pondered for a bit, debating if I should offer some unsolicited advice.  I figured he is a fairly new player, so I ended up telling him that "rememberto buy treasure as well as building your engine".  He wasn't offended, though he also didn't really take my advice.  We left the game after exchanging 'gg'.

In real life, I like to engage in conversation and sometimes it leads to giving advice when I know my fellow player is pretty new to the game.  However, I feel that it may come off as inappropriate more often online since the in-game exchange is so short that it usually is very impersonal.

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Qvist on December 01, 2011, 02:48:30 am
Whats your guys take on offering advice to new players?

For example, sometime ago I played against someone who is registered but not yet ranked.  He proceeded to load up on villages and caravans and didn't pick up any Gold until I've started greening, which was a common mistake new players make.  When the game ended, he made a comment that he had bad shuffles and didn't get good draws.

I pondered for a bit, debating if I should offer some unsolicited advice.  I figured he is a fairly new player, so I ended up telling him that "rememberto buy treasure as well as building your engine".  He wasn't offended, though he also didn't really take my advice.  We left the game after exchanging 'gg'.

In real life, I like to engage in conversation and sometimes it leads to giving advice when I know my fellow player is pretty new to the game.  However, I feel that it may come off as inappropriate more often online since the in-game exchange is so short that it usually is very impersonal.

What do you guys think?

It happened to me once as I played a against a Newbie (at least it seemed so), I gave him an advice. But he felt offended like "How dare I to give HIM an advice?"
I think, there's no problem to give an advice, but at least ask for permission, because not everyone likes advices. They may feel criticized and may not see, we want to help. They may also think we just want to brag and show how good we are. So, at least, ask "May I give you some well meant advice?"
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: FarHorizon on December 03, 2011, 08:45:13 pm
Avoid 22/7 (http://councilroom.com/player?player=22%2F7)

I played a game with him today & around turn 7 he started asking me to play faster (I'm not the fastest player out there, but I've only had one other complaint about speed & that was during a scrying pool game).  A few turns later he just starting cussing at me with all the sophistication of a 12 year old. 

Shortly he resigned by becoming unresponsive.  I glanced at his game history and a significant % of his games end with " 22/7 resigns from the game (client disconnected or unresponsive)."  I wonder why these people even bother ..
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Scott on December 04, 2011, 03:17:36 pm
When Isotropic is replaced with some method of playing dominion that requires payment, I assume most of these people will be gone.

FYP
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Tombolo on December 05, 2011, 03:05:11 pm
My favorites are the people who complain about luck....but wait until after the game, then return really quickly before anybody can say anything back to them. XD
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on December 05, 2011, 03:14:03 pm
My favorites are the people who complain about luck....but wait until after the game, then return really quickly before anybody can say anything back to them. XD

Or the people who complain about luck during the game and then go on to win it...

/me looks at tournament opponent.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: GendoIkari on December 05, 2011, 03:23:55 pm
My favorites are the people who complain about luck....but wait until after the game, then return really quickly before anybody can say anything back to them. XD

Or the people who complain about luck during the game and then go on to win it...

I had the opposite of this experience... a guy who was explaining to me why my play wasn't very good, as he went on to lose!

It was a Treasure Map game with no +buy. I made an early mistake of buying Scheme to top-deck my Treasure Maps after each hand, then realized of course that I can only top-deck cards I've played, not in hand. Anyway, he hit his Treasure Maps by buying 3 or 4 of them, and kept buying Treasure Maps even on the turn after his Treasure Maps hit. I eventually hit my 2 Treasure Maps and proceded to buy Provinces when I could. By the time he was buying a Province every turn, I was also buying them with my 4 Gold and able to get half of them. Right near the end, he commented that I started buying Provinces too soon, because his deck was already stronger, and I was just making mine even worse.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on December 06, 2011, 09:37:41 pm
That's not something to complain about really, depending on how he offered the criticism.  The game has plenty of luck, and suboptimal strategies win all the time.  Sometimes it's hard to say what's suboptimal and what's not, if it were never hard to say we probably wouldn't want to play Dominion.

I had an opponent open Fool's Gold, Fool's Gold on a Familiar board the other day, no trashing either iirc.  I remarked that his play was unusual, opened Silver/Potion, and went on to draw my potion with less than 3$ two or three consecutive times and lose.  I still think his play was bad.  He probably thinks it's good.  Unless I have a sketch of a mathematical proof to show him, I'm not going to argue about it, I'm going to agree to disagree.  But I don't have to concede all my opinions about the game because I lost.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: GendoIkari on December 07, 2011, 12:27:31 pm
That's not something to complain about really, depending on how he offered the criticism.  The game has plenty of luck, and suboptimal strategies win all the time.  Sometimes it's hard to say what's suboptimal and what's not, if it were never hard to say we probably wouldn't want to play Dominion.

I had an opponent open Fool's Gold, Fool's Gold on a Familiar board the other day, no trashing either iirc.  I remarked that his play was unusual, opened Silver/Potion, and went on to draw my potion with less than 3$ two or three consecutive times and lose.  I still think his play was bad.  He probably thinks it's good.  Unless I have a sketch of a mathematical proof to show him, I'm not going to argue about it, I'm going to agree to disagree.  But I don't have to concede all my opinions about the game because I lost.
True enough, but I'd have to say (in my opinion), that his play was quite suboptimal on the specific aspect that he was criticizing me on. It was a board with no +buy, and he continued to get more gold when he had plenty and could have started buying provinces. To not take a Province whenever you can on that kind of board is a pretty big mistake, I think. I don't think you can argue that I was going for Provinces too early.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Ferrouswheel on December 09, 2011, 11:11:48 am
I had an amusing match yesterday, a three player game where one of the players d/ced about ~9ish turns in while I had Sea Haged 5 curses to each player (I was the only person to have bought Sea Hag). Confronted with the fact that he could now end up with 15 curses, he began to start cursing me out in no small fashion. After an insult to my parentage, I informed him that I did not have parents and was the result of an AI robotics project, and started typing in binary. Amusingly, not only did this stop the insults, but he began communing in binary as well.

01101011 01101001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01100001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01101000 01110101 01101101 01100001 01101110 01110011
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on December 10, 2011, 01:30:08 am
During a Minion, Peddler, Hamlet game:

 1:23 lazmaster: go fuck yourself
 1:23 lazmaster: this is obnoxious
 1:23 lazmaster: and not fun
 1:23 Mean Mr Mustard: resign or stay and learn something, I do not care
 1:24 lazmaster: listen you egotistical prick, i'll wipe your ass with this game in person in base and prosperity...never played with cartographer, swindler and minion until today
 1:25 Mean Mr Mustard: why the anger?
 1:26 lazmaster: each turn is obnoxiously long
 1:27 lazmaster has returned to the lobby.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ecq on December 11, 2011, 02:49:52 pm
Quote
1:26 lazmaster: each turn is obnoxiously long

So, his behavior was completely unacceptable, but I understand the intense frustration.  It's very annoying to be the other guy when one player buys 8 hamlets.  Minion only compounds things.  Play all money, buy gold, go surf the web for 5 mins while the other guy clicks through all his decisions.  Come back to find a 4 card hand with few options.  Rinse and repeat.

I wish there were a way to track how long each player is taking, and/or have a chess clock type of system.  It does suck to want to play a few quick games only to spend half an hour where you are personally only playing for 5 mins.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on December 11, 2011, 03:06:49 pm
Quote
1:26 lazmaster: each turn is obnoxiously long

So, his behavior was completely unacceptable, but I understand the intense frustration.  It's very annoying to be the other guy when one player buys 8 hamlets.  Minion only compounds things.  Play all money, buy gold, go surf the web for 5 mins while the other guy clicks through all his decisions.  Come back to find a 4 card hand with few options.  Rinse and repeat.

I wish there were a way to track how long each player is taking, and/or have a chess clock type of system.  It does suck to want to play a few quick games only to spend half an hour where you are personally only playing for 5 mins.

Just imagine if you were playing IRL!
You can't have any sort of system which penalizes long turns without completely altering the strategic landscape of the game, which I think is completely unwarranted.
What would be nice is a better notification system so it's easier to do other things while they're playing their turn.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ecq on December 11, 2011, 04:44:40 pm
Quote
You can't have any sort of system which penalizes long turns without completely altering the strategic landscape of the game, which I think is completely unwarranted.  What would be nice is a better notification system so it's easier to do other things while they're playing their turn.

Yeah, it's difficult.  If I'm playing Dominion, I want to be playing Dominion, not surfing the web in another tab.  If I have 30 mins to play, I want to play 3 games, not one.  It's why many people veto Torturer, Witch, etc.  They make games drag.  I've never spent so long waiting to play as with Hamlet + Peddlers.  It's excruciating with a new player or someone who's lagging.  I've been tempted to play 2 games at once, but that seems rude.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to derail, but I'm just saying that the guy may have been legitimately extremely frustrated (as I have been), though his response was inappropriate.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on December 11, 2011, 05:05:04 pm
Quote
1:26 lazmaster: each turn is obnoxiously long

So, his behavior was completely unacceptable, but I understand the intense frustration.  It's very annoying to be the other guy when one player buys 8 hamlets.  Minion only compounds things.  Play all money, buy gold, go surf the web for 5 mins while the other guy clicks through all his decisions.  Come back to find a 4 card hand with few options.  Rinse and repeat.

I wish there were a way to track how long each player is taking, and/or have a chess clock type of system.  It does suck to want to play a few quick games only to spend half an hour where you are personally only playing for 5 mins.

Just imagine if you were playing IRL!

Actually, Hamlet is much better in person than online, in a comparative sense--i.e., Hamlet takes three times as long as Lab online but only about 1.5 times as long as Lab in person.  Unless the person goes the serious AP route, which is going to be bad either way.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: brokoli on December 12, 2011, 06:32:26 am
I played a game today, and I really enjoyed it. I went for baron, silk road and Inn/Horse traders.
My opponent was losing, and said "fuck you" before resigning.

I don't know if it often happens, but I hate this kind of behavior...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on December 12, 2011, 10:43:50 am
Just played a game where my opponent built a lovely chapelled draw engine using crossroads / great hall.
However somehow he missed me picking up two noble brigands.

Right after he used !details:
10:28 Taidon: I have no treasure......wtf

Later, just before he bought the last province for a loss:
10:39 Taidon: btw, your a complete asshole for using attack cards.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jack Rudd on December 13, 2011, 09:16:37 am
By the way, I'd like to apologise to hungryhungryhippo for my laggy connection earlier - it genuinely wasn't showing the moves in a timely fashion.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on December 16, 2011, 08:37:59 pm
Not terribly uncivil, but he did ragequit and it amused me how worked up he got.

20:09 me: are you a bot?
20:09 me: you played those fishing villages ridiculously fast
20:11 him: what?
20:11 him: am i a bot
20:12 him: wait do you acutally think a bot could play dominon at the level of 40+? rofl
20:12 him: that would require thousands of hours of study
20:12 him: i play this game for fun and competition
20:12 him: !!
20:13 me: ok no need to blow your conversation circuits
20:13 him has returned to the lobby.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Fabian on December 16, 2011, 09:07:03 pm
..so you're here to report yourself? I don't get it.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on December 16, 2011, 09:37:10 pm
..so you're here to report yourself? I don't get it.

Nah, mainly just posted because I found the conversation and his reaction amusing..
I do think though it goes to show that it's not just low-rankers who can be very touchy.

EDIT: not gonna say who this was, but he was indeed 40+, and after searching here I see some other people have had encounters with him as well.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Fabian on December 16, 2011, 10:34:10 pm
What I'm saying is, if there's anyone in that conversation who's rude or uncivil, it's not the level 40+ dude. Imo.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on December 16, 2011, 11:02:21 pm
What I'm saying is, if there's anyone in that conversation who's rude or uncivil, it's not the level 40+ dude. Imo.
Yeah, I got that thanks. Hope I don't play you or anyone else who's had their sense of humor removed anytime soon.

EDIT: Perhaps I should clarify that I don't think his ragequit had anything to do with our conversation, but rather being on the losing end of an ambassador war. And he really did play 4 fishing villages inhumanly fast, but that was probably a net glitch.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on December 17, 2011, 04:18:24 am
Or just... you know... clicking four times in a row. I'm betting most computer-literates can do that in less than 0.25 of a second.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on December 17, 2011, 09:26:48 am
Or just... you know... clicking four times in a row. I'm betting most computer-literates can do that in less than 0.25 of a second.

Maybe it's just my connection, but the fastest I can play cards is barely over 1 per second.. You have to wait for one to disappear before you can click on the one below it, which requires waiting for some AJAX magic with the server to happen. I could imagine writing a bot which can fire play requests nearly simultaneously though.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Hunting Party of One on December 17, 2011, 10:10:50 am
I too have experienced a pretty severe lack in sportsmanship when playing on isotropic.  A few manners (hello, hf, etc.) go a long way to making the game that much more fun.  And at the end, saying good game is the least that everybody could do.  It's just a game, people, and an extremely fun one at that.  Let's not diminish it by taking it so seriously.  You win some, you lose some.  Say good game and give that virtual handshake at the end of the game.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: guided on December 17, 2011, 05:45:15 pm
Yeah, I got that thanks. Hope I don't play you or anyone else who's had their sense of humor removed anytime soon.
You were being rude, not funny.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on December 17, 2011, 05:55:07 pm
Yeah, I got that thanks. Hope I don't play you or anyone else who's had their sense of humor removed anytime soon.
You were being rude, not funny.
Whatever dude. I guess all you 40+ take yourselves way too seriously.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: olneyce on December 17, 2011, 07:19:24 pm
Yeah, I got that thanks. Hope I don't play you or anyone else who's had their sense of humor removed anytime soon.
You were being rude, not funny.
Whatever dude. I guess all you 40+ take yourselves way too seriously.
You are posting on the 'civility' thread.  Cognitive dissonance much?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Fabian on December 17, 2011, 07:25:15 pm
olneyce, you're not a level 40+ player (on today's leaderboard anyway), so clearly you have no right to be so rude to him, like we are!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ackack on December 17, 2011, 11:18:40 pm
I too have experienced a pretty severe lack in sportsmanship when playing on isotropic.  A few manners (hello, hf, etc.) go a long way to making the game that much more fun.  And at the end, saying good game is the least that everybody could do.  It's just a game, people, and an extremely fun one at that.  Let's not diminish it by taking it so seriously.  You win some, you lose some.  Say good game and give that virtual handshake at the end of the game.

It's worth considering that not everybody finds perfunctory greetings a la "hf gl" and "gg" to be super awesome fun. 80% of "gg"s also seem to be deployed right before an immediate exit back to the lobby. In general I wish people would communicate more - I'm pretty sure I'm in the top decile of chatters during a game - but this level of stuff doesn't really add much.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on December 18, 2011, 01:00:44 am
I too have experienced a pretty severe lack in sportsmanship when playing on isotropic.  A few manners (hello, hf, etc.) go a long way to making the game that much more fun.  And at the end, saying good game is the least that everybody could do.  It's just a game, people, and an extremely fun one at that.  Let's not diminish it by taking it so seriously.  You win some, you lose some.  Say good game and give that virtual handshake at the end of the game.

It's worth considering that not everybody finds perfunctory greetings a la "hf gl" and "gg" to be super awesome fun. 80% of "gg"s also seem to be deployed right before an immediate exit back to the lobby. In general I wish people would communicate more - I'm pretty sure I'm in the top decile of chatters during a game - but this level of stuff doesn't really add much.

Yeah, but if you say anything besides the banalities, nice fellows get pissed at you.

I'm not going to bother defending my sense of humor to you, but please explain to me how exactly asking a tongue in cheek question and making a statement of fact are considered rude?

And guided, I'm calling you out: I think rage quitting is far more rude than anything said that doesn't involve profanity.
Do you disagree?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: olneyce on December 18, 2011, 02:01:30 am
Yeah, but if you say anything besides the banalities, nice fellows get pissed at you.

I'm not going to bother defending my sense of humor to you, but please explain to me how exactly asking a tongue in cheek question and making a statement of fact are considered rude?
You can't get mad at us.  We're just making tongue in cheek comments about your post. 

What?  You don't get the humor?  Hmmm, you must be a bot.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ^_^_^_^ on December 18, 2011, 08:12:15 am
Yeah, I got that thanks. Hope I don't play you or anyone else who's had their sense of humor removed anytime soon.
You were being rude, not funny.
Whatever dude. I guess all you 40+ take yourselves way too seriously.
You were being rude to him. This is coming from a level 0. Please think about what you would've thought if someone said "Hope I don't play you or anyone else who's had their sense of humor removed anytime soon." to you. Think about that until you understand how it is rude, until then, please don't respond.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: theory on December 18, 2011, 08:21:21 am
I can't believe this thread got worse than it already was.

No more discussion on barsooma's game, please.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on December 19, 2011, 12:49:26 am
I can't believe this thread got worse than it already was.

That said, we do at least have a place where 90% of the incivility on the board has been concentrated.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on December 19, 2011, 04:24:55 pm
One thing that I've learned in my 24 years being online is that text is a terrible medium to convey tone. Jokes don't always go over so well.

For example, in a real-life game, if one person has a 5/2 split while I have a 4/3, I'll jokingly exclaim, "Hax!" If I did that in Isotropic—especially to a complete stranger—I would not be surprised if he took it poorly. I wouldn't mean to insult him, but my assumption that he would find that as humorous may well be my folly.

When someone looks to be rude, that might not be his intention. He may be trying to convey a joke, or he may not have a perfect grasp of English, or maybe it's even a combination of both. It's the listener's job to comprehend the message, but it's also the sender's job to ensure the message is easily and universally comprehended. Humor in a textual format is difficult to pull off, and it's very easy for the other person to interpret it as something else.

Of course, if there is a string of profanity, then I'm less likely to give that person the benefit of the doubt and just assume he's really that angry at me.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jimmmmm on December 19, 2011, 08:53:29 pm
One thing that I've learned in my 24 years being online is that text is a terrible medium to convey tone. Jokes don't always go over so well.

For example, in a real-life game, if one person has a 5/2 split while I have a 4/3, I'll jokingly exclaim, "Hax!" If I did that in Isotropic—especially to a complete stranger—I would not be surprised if he took it poorly. I wouldn't mean to insult him, but my assumption that he would find that as humorous may well be my folly.

When someone looks to be rude, that might not be his intention. He may be trying to convey a joke, or he may not have a perfect grasp of English, or maybe it's even a combination of both. It's the listener's job to comprehend the message, but it's also the sender's job to ensure the message is easily and universally comprehended. Humor in a textual format is difficult to pull off, and it's very easy for the other person to interpret it as something else.

Of course, if there is a string of profanity, then I'm less likely to give that person the benefit of the doubt and just assume he's really that angry at me.

That's what smilies are for.

"Hax! :P" or "Hax! ;)" should do nicely. :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ^_^_^_^ on December 20, 2011, 03:03:41 pm
One thing that I've learned in my 24 years being online is that text is a terrible medium to convey tone. Jokes don't always go over so well.

For example, in a real-life game, if one person has a 5/2 split while I have a 4/3, I'll jokingly exclaim, "Hax!" If I did that in Isotropic—especially to a complete stranger—I would not be surprised if he took it poorly. I wouldn't mean to insult him, but my assumption that he would find that as humorous may well be my folly.

When someone looks to be rude, that might not be his intention. He may be trying to convey a joke, or he may not have a perfect grasp of English, or maybe it's even a combination of both. It's the listener's job to comprehend the message, but it's also the sender's job to ensure the message is easily and universally comprehended. Humor in a textual format is difficult to pull off, and it's very easy for the other person to interpret it as something else.

Of course, if there is a string of profanity, then I'm less likely to give that person the benefit of the doubt and just assume he's really that angry at me.

That's what smilies are for.

"Hax! :P" or "Hax! ;)" should do nicely. :)
Nope. I've tried it. Some people haven't seen a smily before. Also, you would be surprised how many haven't seen :P or XD or xD or even -_-.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jimmmmm on December 20, 2011, 07:41:50 pm
One thing that I've learned in my 24 years being online is that text is a terrible medium to convey tone. Jokes don't always go over so well.

For example, in a real-life game, if one person has a 5/2 split while I have a 4/3, I'll jokingly exclaim, "Hax!" If I did that in Isotropic—especially to a complete stranger—I would not be surprised if he took it poorly. I wouldn't mean to insult him, but my assumption that he would find that as humorous may well be my folly.

When someone looks to be rude, that might not be his intention. He may be trying to convey a joke, or he may not have a perfect grasp of English, or maybe it's even a combination of both. It's the listener's job to comprehend the message, but it's also the sender's job to ensure the message is easily and universally comprehended. Humor in a textual format is difficult to pull off, and it's very easy for the other person to interpret it as something else.

Of course, if there is a string of profanity, then I'm less likely to give that person the benefit of the doubt and just assume he's really that angry at me.

That's what smilies are for.

"Hax! :P" or "Hax! ;)" should do nicely. :)
Nope. I've tried it. Some people haven't seen a smily before. Also, you would be surprised how many haven't seen :P or XD or xD or even -_-.

Well if people don't know common internet lingo, that's not your fault it's theirs. What can you do?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ^_^_^_^ on December 20, 2011, 07:54:31 pm
One thing that I've learned in my 24 years being online is that text is a terrible medium to convey tone. Jokes don't always go over so well.

For example, in a real-life game, if one person has a 5/2 split while I have a 4/3, I'll jokingly exclaim, "Hax!" If I did that in Isotropic—especially to a complete stranger—I would not be surprised if he took it poorly. I wouldn't mean to insult him, but my assumption that he would find that as humorous may well be my folly.

When someone looks to be rude, that might not be his intention. He may be trying to convey a joke, or he may not have a perfect grasp of English, or maybe it's even a combination of both. It's the listener's job to comprehend the message, but it's also the sender's job to ensure the message is easily and universally comprehended. Humor in a textual format is difficult to pull off, and it's very easy for the other person to interpret it as something else.

Of course, if there is a string of profanity, then I'm less likely to give that person the benefit of the doubt and just assume he's really that angry at me.

That's what smilies are for.

"Hax! :P" or "Hax! ;)" should do nicely. :)
Nope. I've tried it. Some people haven't seen a smily before. Also, you would be surprised how many haven't seen :P or XD or xD or even -_-.

Well if people don't know common internet lingo, that's not your fault it's theirs. What can you do?
Don't say Hax. That, and link them to something like http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=239640
/shameless self-advertisement :P
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Lekkit on December 22, 2011, 11:48:53 am
Just played a game where my opponent left the game after about 12 turns of Ambassador play saying:

Quote
fuck you I hate playing high rnaked players who don't veto Ambassador.

He vetoed Margrave and I vetoed random. Also, he was 6 levels below me, so lvl 25.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kahryl on December 29, 2011, 03:17:09 pm
Just played a game as Karr where I was trouncing someone with a village/Rabble/Margrave chain. I was drawing/playing my whole deck but was clicking pretty quickly.. but then:

15:13 ∞: play faster
15:13 Karr: I was waiting for you to discard!
15:13 ∞: you are just sitting there now
15:13 Karr: I was typing!
15:13 Karr: TO YOU
15:13 ∞: just play - you type and play too slowly
15:14 ∞: later, you should stick to table games
15:14 ∞ has returned to the lobby.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ^_^_^_^ on December 30, 2011, 03:58:16 pm
played a guy by the name of YAHWEH. He said "YAHWEH" and returned to the lobby lol. Free win, I won't complain :).
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Brando Commando on December 30, 2011, 09:01:19 pm
I know some games get dragged out totally unnecessarily and somebody should just quit and I usually do, but if they "gg" before you voluntarily quit...isn't that kind of dickish? I mean, if he had just asked me, I would have given up.

This just happened to me. Then he (she?) and I had a snippy argument about whether what he did was dickish.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: chogg on December 31, 2011, 09:49:10 am
It's human nature to get really upset and defensive when losing, so it's important to remember where people are coming from.  Not responding in kind can do wonders for the online atmosphere.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: michaeljb on December 31, 2011, 02:03:00 pm
That's pretty awesome. Way to be a good guy greg (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1204.msg21272#msg21272).
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: KMueller on January 05, 2012, 05:59:28 am
It's human nature to get really upset and defensive when losing, so it's important to remember where people are coming from.  Not responding in kind can do wonders for the online atmosphere.

I agree: Here was my good morning game dialog:

 5:51 KMueller: gg
 5:51 S******: lucky f%$#
 5:51 KMueller: yeah
 5:51 S******: grosss
 5:51 S******: you play like s^%$
 5:51 S******: and get rewarded
 5:51 KMueller: love you too
 5:51 Shroomchild has returned to the lobby.

We played a very similar game, the only difference I bought a Remodel one shuffle before him and grabbed the last Prov. using it and a gold.

I agree that the gg, gl, hf are not the be all end all, but they at least indicate a willingness to chat, if the other person is interested.

Edit: Cartoon profanities to replace his
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on January 05, 2012, 06:01:50 am
I don't think anybody on this forum has ever successfully censored an opponent's name in any kind of log... I find it kind of funny.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on January 05, 2012, 08:54:34 pm
I don't think anybody on this forum has ever successfully censored an opponent's name in any kind of log... I find it kind of funny.

I think chogg got it right, a couple posts up.

Sure, you could spend your time searching for a game chogg played that had Harem and Chapel, but are you really going to do that?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ftl on January 05, 2012, 09:12:16 pm
Yes, I did, actually. Was pretty simple. I was curious, in part because of the censoring :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Graystripe77 on January 09, 2012, 02:04:04 pm
Packman97 just cursed me out for an epic scrying pool/NV/torturer engine I just built.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: chwhite on January 09, 2012, 03:52:00 pm
Strangest exchange I've ever had on isotropic:

14:59 chwhite: hi gl
15:00 ****: of course
15:01 ****: gg
15:04 ****: what is it with folks that won't gg back?
15:04 ****: it's over and you know it
15:06 ****: fucking asshole
15:06 chwhite: sorry, I was goign to gg when the game was actually over?
15:06 chwhite: *going
15:06 ****: it's been over for a long time
15:07 chwhite: I've always thought it was poor form to gg when it was still goign on, sorry
15:07 ****: only if you are winning and do it first
15:08 ****: do you honestly think I'm going to come back and beat you?
15:10 chwhite: gg
15:10 ****: asshole

The first "gg" was given immediately after I pulled Tournament out of the Black Market deck (or perhaps it was after the first or second province, in either case it was fairly early on).  The game was by no means over, though admittedly I did hit the BM jackpot and it would be hard for my opponent to come back.  But... I've never in all my time here seen someone give a premature gg when the game was still in doubt AND THEN flip out about not having it returned at a point in the game when doing so would be IMO be taunting!

Or maybe I'm crazy, I dunno.  My rushed and poor typing is evidence in that direction. :P
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on January 09, 2012, 04:42:46 pm
I'm telling you, it never pays to talk to people... most only want to talk when they are so upset with the game that they'd rather rant than play.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Fabian on January 09, 2012, 07:24:46 pm
I have something of an irrational hatred for premature gg's, as my opponents somehow seem to win 98%* of the games where they say it to me. I don't know how that's possible, maybe the gg tilts me into making terrible decisions or something.

*Exaggeration
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on January 09, 2012, 08:13:25 pm
I have something of an irrational hatred for premature gg's, as my opponents somehow seem to win 98%* of the games where they say it to me. I don't know how that's possible, maybe the gg tilts me into making terrible decisions or something.

*Exaggeration

To me, a pre-ending gg carries with it an expectation that the person is going to resign when they next have the chance... I am always baffled when someone says it then carries on with the game. Maybe they are looking for extra congratulations if they manage to pull off a comeback?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Voltgloss on January 09, 2012, 08:17:56 pm
Strangest exchange I've ever had on isotropic:

14:59 chwhite: hi gl
15:00 ****: of course
15:01 ****: gg
15:04 ****: what is it with folks that won't gg back?
15:04 ****: it's over and you know it
15:06 ****: fucking asshole
15:06 chwhite: sorry, I was goign to gg when the game was actually over?
15:06 chwhite: *going
15:06 ****: it's been over for a long time
15:07 chwhite: I've always thought it was poor form to gg when it was still goign on, sorry
15:07 ****: only if you are winning and do it first
15:08 ****: do you honestly think I'm going to come back and beat you?
15:10 chwhite: gg
15:10 ****: asshole

So if the opponent's "gg" was when you bought Tournament from the BM deck... was your "gg" when you paired it with a Province?  Bonus hilarity points if so. 
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Forge!!! on January 09, 2012, 08:50:59 pm
If I felt like people actually ever meant it when they said "gl" or "gg", I wouldn't mind it, but it's such a formality that it just annoys the heck out of me. I generally try to avoid ever saying it unless I really mean it, and have probably annoyed a few people due to my dislike of them. Oh well.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: chwhite on January 09, 2012, 08:55:00 pm
Strangest exchange I've ever had on isotropic:

14:59 chwhite: hi gl
15:00 ****: of course
15:01 ****: gg
15:04 ****: what is it with folks that won't gg back?
15:04 ****: it's over and you know it
15:06 ****: fucking asshole
15:06 chwhite: sorry, I was goign to gg when the game was actually over?
15:06 chwhite: *going
15:06 ****: it's been over for a long time
15:07 chwhite: I've always thought it was poor form to gg when it was still goign on, sorry
15:07 ****: only if you are winning and do it first
15:08 ****: do you honestly think I'm going to come back and beat you?
15:10 chwhite: gg
15:10 ****: asshole

So if the opponent's "gg" was when you bought Tournament from the BM deck... was your "gg" when you paired it with a Province?  Bonus hilarity points if so. 

Nah, my "gg" was when the game was when the last Province was bought and the game was over (I won, but not actually by all that much).  Had I said "gg" when I paired the Tournament with a Province, then well that would be a jerk move and my opponent would have every reason to complain about me here!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Fabian on January 09, 2012, 09:01:16 pm
I have something of an irrational hatred for premature gg's, as my opponents somehow seem to win 98%* of the games where they say it to me. I don't know how that's possible, maybe the gg tilts me into making terrible decisions or something.

*Exaggeration

To me, a pre-ending gg carries with it an expectation that the person is going to resign when they next have the chance... I am always baffled when someone says it then carries on with the game. Maybe they are looking for extra congratulations if they manage to pull off a comeback?


Yup same here. That's the non-irrational part of my dislike about premature gg's though, I guess :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Axxle on January 09, 2012, 09:12:12 pm
If I felt like people actually ever meant it when they said "gl" or "gg", I wouldn't mind it, but it's such a formality that it just annoys the heck out of me. I generally try to avoid ever saying it unless I really mean it, and have probably annoyed a few people due to my dislike of them. Oh well.

I always mean it when I say hf... maybe not so much gl though, I want to save some luck for myself! :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: sjelkjd on January 09, 2012, 09:45:03 pm
Strangest exchange I've ever had on isotropic:
...

Pretty weird.  Dominion reminds me of StarCraft as far as gg etiquette goes, but if someone ggs I expect they'll resign immediately or they're being sarcastic.  In this case since he didn't resign on his next turn but kept playing I would have assumed he was either making a joke or trolling you.   Saying gg and then continuing to play is pretty stupid.  Now, in StarCraft, when you resign you leave the game, so it's typical to wait for the reply(*edit if you are expecting one) and then resign, but on isotropic, you can just hang out in the room for a little bit.  Maybe he wasn't aware of that?

tldr: ignore the jerk
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on January 10, 2012, 01:34:30 am
If I felt like people actually ever meant it when they said "gl" or "gg", I wouldn't mind it, but it's such a formality that it just annoys the heck out of me. I generally try to avoid ever saying it unless I really mean it, and have probably annoyed a few people due to my dislike of them. Oh well.

I always mean it when I say hf... maybe not so much gl though, I want to save some luck for myself! :)

Personally, I want both my opponent and me to have exactly the same amount of good luck.  If either of us gets incredibly lucky/unlucky, the game just doesn't feel as good to win/lose.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Axxle on January 10, 2012, 01:54:18 pm
If I felt like people actually ever meant it when they said "gl" or "gg", I wouldn't mind it, but it's such a formality that it just annoys the heck out of me. I generally try to avoid ever saying it unless I really mean it, and have probably annoyed a few people due to my dislike of them. Oh well.

I always mean it when I say hf... maybe not so much gl though, I want to save some luck for myself! :)

Personally, I want both my opponent and me to have exactly the same amount of good luck.  If either of us gets incredibly lucky/unlucky, the game just doesn't feel as good to win/lose.

That's what I meant.  I guess I just didn't explain myself well.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DrHades on January 10, 2012, 10:33:08 pm
I don't really care whether my opponent talks at all, but what I hate is when all he types is "hf gl" and then "gg" and leaves. Ok, sometimes the game was not interesting and there is nothing to say, but I take his "hf", "hello" or whatever as an conversation starter, so I am expacting that he will answer when I say something.

My point: If you don't wanna talk at all, typing "gl" isn't polite, but more rude then saying nothing. Polite is to to talk about the game when one of you has something interesting to say (even if it is just "maaan, I am sooo unlucky :(((", I think it is nice to say "yes, you are, sorry :(")
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on January 10, 2012, 10:52:04 pm
but if someone ggs I expect they'll resign immediately or they're being sarcastic.  In this case since he didn't resign on his next turn but kept playing I would have assumed he was either making a joke or trolling you.   Saying gg and then continuing to play is pretty stupid. 

I am guilty of this.  I prematurely gg sometimes when I expect I am about to lose, but then don't.  Or I have decided to resign but then my opponent makes a massive blunder that gives me a chance.  No sarcasm intended.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: glasser on January 11, 2012, 01:09:14 am
I am guilty of this.  I prematurely gg sometimes when I expect I am about to lose, but then don't.  Or I have decided to resign but then my opponent makes a massive blunder that gives me a chance.  No sarcasm intended.

Yeah, I got a gg from an opponent today after I played a relatively early KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge.
Which is really quite a different beast from KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge :)  I went on to lose.
(The other key cards on the board were Chapel and Tactician; Tactician was the only card doing anything like nonterminal draw, and I really should have bought one earlier, since otherwise even if my deck consists entirely of KCs, Bridges, and a Chapel, the chance of getting the magic hand is pretty low...)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Anon79 on January 11, 2012, 02:54:31 am
But with King's Courts, you don't need non-terminal draws to achieve the magic combo.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on January 11, 2012, 09:27:34 am
I don't really care whether my opponent talks at all, but what I hate is when all he types is "hf gl" and then "gg" and leaves. Ok, sometimes the game was not interesting and there is nothing to say, but I take his "hf", "hello" or whatever as an conversation starter, so I am expacting that he will answer when I say something.

My point: If you don't wanna talk at all, typing "gl" isn't polite, but more rude then saying nothing.

This conversation again!

In general, in online gaming communities, acknowledging the presence of an opponent is good form.  "gl/hf" or some variant thereof is common in multiple online games, including BSW, which is the closest thing we have to a "precursor" to isotropic.  (In fact, about a third of the time on BSW you get vg/vs[(viel Glück, viel Spass] instead of gl/hf.)

Gl/hf is not rude at all.  It is, in fact, standard.  Some, including myself, find it rude when people fail to acknowledge there's another human being at the other end of the connection rather than an AI.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DrHades on January 11, 2012, 10:20:14 am
I don't really care whether my opponent talks at all, but what I hate is when all he types is "hf gl" and then "gg" and leaves. Ok, sometimes the game was not interesting and there is nothing to say, but I take his "hf", "hello" or whatever as an conversation starter, so I am expacting that he will answer when I say something.

My point: If you don't wanna talk at all, typing "gl" isn't polite, but more rude then saying nothing.

This conversation again!

In general, in online gaming communities, acknowledging the presence of an opponent is good form.  "gl/hf" or some variant thereof is common in multiple online games, including BSW, which is the closest thing we have to a "precursor" to isotropic.  (In fact, about a third of the time on BSW you get vg/vs[(viel Glück, viel Spass] instead of gl/hf.)

Gl/hf is not rude at all.  It is, in fact, standard.  Some, including myself, find it rude when people fail to acknowledge there's another human being at the other end of the connection rather than an AI.

I think you understand me incorrectly. I don't believe that moral and ethics laws are absolute and objective, so I am just saying my opinion. Yes, if 90% of people in a community agrees that something is polite, then it is polite (e.g. in chess, it is very rude to not handshake with your opponent at the start and at the end of the game), but I don't think your opinion is the opinion of 90% of the community...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on January 11, 2012, 10:34:12 am
I don't really care whether my opponent talks at all, but what I hate is when all he types is "hf gl" and then "gg" and leaves. Ok, sometimes the game was not interesting and there is nothing to say, but I take his "hf", "hello" or whatever as an conversation starter, so I am expacting that he will answer when I say something.

My point: If you don't wanna talk at all, typing "gl" isn't polite, but more rude then saying nothing.

This conversation again!

In general, in online gaming communities, acknowledging the presence of an opponent is good form.  "gl/hf" or some variant thereof is common in multiple online games, including BSW, which is the closest thing we have to a "precursor" to isotropic.  (In fact, about a third of the time on BSW you get vg/vs[(viel Glück, viel Spass] instead of gl/hf.)

Gl/hf is not rude at all.  It is, in fact, standard.  Some, including myself, find it rude when people fail to acknowledge there's another human being at the other end of the connection rather than an AI.

I think you understand me incorrectly. I don't believe that moral and ethics laws are absolute and objective, so I am just saying my opinion. Yes, if 90% of people in a community agrees that something is polite, then it is polite (e.g. in chess, it is very rude to not handshake with your opponent at the start and at the end of the game), but I don't think your opinion is the opinion of 90% of the community...
Morality is objective. Polity is different entirely, and is not objective.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DrHades on January 11, 2012, 10:59:25 am
I don't really care whether my opponent talks at all, but what I hate is when all he types is "hf gl" and then "gg" and leaves. Ok, sometimes the game was not interesting and there is nothing to say, but I take his "hf", "hello" or whatever as an conversation starter, so I am expacting that he will answer when I say something.

My point: If you don't wanna talk at all, typing "gl" isn't polite, but more rude then saying nothing.

This conversation again!

In general, in online gaming communities, acknowledging the presence of an opponent is good form.  "gl/hf" or some variant thereof is common in multiple online games, including BSW, which is the closest thing we have to a "precursor" to isotropic.  (In fact, about a third of the time on BSW you get vg/vs[(viel Glück, viel Spass] instead of gl/hf.)

Gl/hf is not rude at all.  It is, in fact, standard.  Some, including myself, find it rude when people fail to acknowledge there's another human being at the other end of the connection rather than an AI.

I think you understand me incorrectly. I don't believe that moral and ethics laws are absolute and objective, so I am just saying my opinion. Yes, if 90% of people in a community agrees that something is polite, then it is polite (e.g. in chess, it is very rude to not handshake with your opponent at the start and at the end of the game), but I don't think your opinion is the opinion of 90% of the community...
Morality is objective. Polity is different entirely, and is not objective.
I am not a native speaker so I really don't understand how could this be true :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on January 11, 2012, 12:14:07 pm
I think you understand me incorrectly. I don't believe that moral and ethics laws are absolute and objective, so I am just saying my opinion. Yes, if 90% of people in a community agrees that something is polite, then it is polite (e.g. in chess, it is very rude to not handshake with your opponent at the start and at the end of the game), but I don't think your opinion is the opinion of 90% of the community...

I don't have hard numbers, obviously, but I suspect the first half of my opinion (i.e., it's standard) is shared by a supermajority of the community.  Finding the lack of it rude, probably not as much.

Morality is objective. Polity is different entirely, and is not objective.

No!  No more worm cans in this thread.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: chogg on January 11, 2012, 12:25:41 pm
No!  No more worm cans in this thread.

Rats!  I was just about to Abortion the Gay Marriage before Religioning the Politics.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rotundo on January 11, 2012, 01:14:24 pm
Just played a game as Karr where I was trouncing someone with a village/Rabble/Margrave chain. I was drawing/playing my whole deck but was clicking pretty quickly.. but then:

15:13 ∞: play faster
15:13 Karr: I was waiting for you to discard!
15:13 ∞: you are just sitting there now
15:13 Karr: I was typing!
15:13 Karr: TO YOU
15:13 ∞: just play - you type and play too slowly
15:14 ∞: later, you should stick to table games
15:14 ∞ has returned to the lobby.

∞ is a clown. He bought the last province to beat me 33-25 once. Before I could even "gg" him, he types "owned" and disappears to the lobby. If you check his profile, you'll notice he's lost 229 games. His score was -100 in 157 of them.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eagle on January 11, 2012, 02:06:06 pm
If I felt like people actually ever meant it when they said "gl" or "gg", I wouldn't mind it, but it's such a formality that it just annoys the heck out of me. I generally try to avoid ever saying it unless I really mean it, and have probably annoyed a few people due to my dislike of them. Oh well.

Agreed, I find it very obnoxious actually.  What's wrong with a simple "Hello"?  that way you're still acknowledging that there's a person there, but you're not being fake, wishing "good luck" when you'd really rather they didn't have better luck than you anyway.

As for "gg"..  if it was *actually* a good game, then fine..  but it's obvious when the game wasn't good by any definition of the term, and if you just beat me 130 to 5 due to an insane goons engine that I couldn't get out from under, then the game was not "good", don't insult me by claiming that it was.  There's no way you'll ever convince me that a "gg" in that circumstance shouldn't be considered incredibly rude.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: olneyce on January 11, 2012, 04:32:08 pm
If I felt like people actually ever meant it when they said "gl" or "gg", I wouldn't mind it, but it's such a formality that it just annoys the heck out of me. I generally try to avoid ever saying it unless I really mean it, and have probably annoyed a few people due to my dislike of them. Oh well.

Agreed, I find it very obnoxious actually.  What's wrong with a simple "Hello"?  that way you're still acknowledging that there's a person there, but you're not being fake, wishing "good luck" when you'd really rather they didn't have better luck than you anyway.

As for "gg"..  if it was *actually* a good game, then fine..  but it's obvious when the game wasn't good by any definition of the term, and if you just beat me 130 to 5 due to an insane goons engine that I couldn't get out from under, then the game was not "good", don't insult me by claiming that it was.  There's no way you'll ever convince me that a "gg" in that circumstance shouldn't be considered incredibly rude.
gg doesn't mean 'Well, friend, that was a really excellent game of Dominion we just played.'  It means 'I acknowledge that you, a human being, just played a game with me.  We both hoped to win, but only one of us did (unless it was a tie).  Thank you for your time.'
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ^_^_^_^ on January 11, 2012, 04:43:46 pm
If I felt like people actually ever meant it when they said "gl" or "gg", I wouldn't mind it, but it's such a formality that it just annoys the heck out of me. I generally try to avoid ever saying it unless I really mean it, and have probably annoyed a few people due to my dislike of them. Oh well.

Agreed, I find it very obnoxious actually.  What's wrong with a simple "Hello"?  that way you're still acknowledging that there's a person there, but you're not being fake, wishing "good luck" when you'd really rather they didn't have better luck than you anyway.

As for "gg"..  if it was *actually* a good game, then fine..  but it's obvious when the game wasn't good by any definition of the term, and if you just beat me 130 to 5 due to an insane goons engine that I couldn't get out from under, then the game was not "good", don't insult me by claiming that it was.  There's no way you'll ever convince me that a "gg" in that circumstance shouldn't be considered incredibly rude.
gg doesn't mean 'Well, friend, that was a really excellent game of Dominion we just played.'  It means 'I acknowledge that you, a human being, just played a game with me.  We both hoped to win, but only one of us did (unless it was a tie).  Thank you for your time.'
gg means good game. How you interpret it is completely up to you.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: olneyce on January 11, 2012, 05:18:10 pm
If I felt like people actually ever meant it when they said "gl" or "gg", I wouldn't mind it, but it's such a formality that it just annoys the heck out of me. I generally try to avoid ever saying it unless I really mean it, and have probably annoyed a few people due to my dislike of them. Oh well.

Agreed, I find it very obnoxious actually.  What's wrong with a simple "Hello"?  that way you're still acknowledging that there's a person there, but you're not being fake, wishing "good luck" when you'd really rather they didn't have better luck than you anyway.

As for "gg"..  if it was *actually* a good game, then fine..  but it's obvious when the game wasn't good by any definition of the term, and if you just beat me 130 to 5 due to an insane goons engine that I couldn't get out from under, then the game was not "good", don't insult me by claiming that it was.  There's no way you'll ever convince me that a "gg" in that circumstance shouldn't be considered incredibly rude.
gg doesn't mean 'Well, friend, that was a really excellent game of Dominion we just played.'  It means 'I acknowledge that you, a human being, just played a game with me.  We both hoped to win, but only one of us did (unless it was a tie).  Thank you for your time.'
gg means good game. How you interpret it is completely up to you.
This is both true and unhelpful.  The literal meaning of a phrase often has very little to do with its social meaning.  'Break a leg' for example, clearly doesn't mean 'I want you to badly injure yourself.'

I think, in most cases, you'll find your life to make more sense if you interpret gg to mean what I said it means.  The same goes with 'how's it going?' and 'nice to meet you' and a bunch of other relatively vacuous social niceties.  People say them because it signals that you're willing to devote the modicum of interest necessary to get along in a social world.  The literal meaning is almost completely irrelevant.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on January 11, 2012, 05:33:18 pm
If I felt like people actually ever meant it when they said "gl" or "gg", I wouldn't mind it, but it's such a formality that it just annoys the heck out of me. I generally try to avoid ever saying it unless I really mean it, and have probably annoyed a few people due to my dislike of them. Oh well.

Agreed, I find it very obnoxious actually.  What's wrong with a simple "Hello"?  that way you're still acknowledging that there's a person there, but you're not being fake, wishing "good luck" when you'd really rather they didn't have better luck than you anyway.

As for "gg"..  if it was *actually* a good game, then fine..  but it's obvious when the game wasn't good by any definition of the term, and if you just beat me 130 to 5 due to an insane goons engine that I couldn't get out from under, then the game was not "good", don't insult me by claiming that it was.  There's no way you'll ever convince me that a "gg" in that circumstance shouldn't be considered incredibly rude.
gg doesn't mean 'Well, friend, that was a really excellent game of Dominion we just played.'  It means 'I acknowledge that you, a human being, just played a game with me.  We both hoped to win, but only one of us did (unless it was a tie).  Thank you for your time.'
gg means good game. How you interpret it is completely up to you.
This is both true and unhelpful.  The literal meaning of a phrase often has very little to do with its social meaning.  'Break a leg' for example, clearly doesn't mean 'I want you to badly injure yourself.'

I think, in most cases, you'll find your life to make more sense if you interpret gg to mean what I said it means.  The same goes with 'how's it going?' and 'nice to meet you' and a bunch of other relatively vacuous social niceties.  People say them because it signals that you're willing to devote the modicum of interest necessary to get along in a social world.  The literal meaning is almost completely irrelevant.
I disagree, but I realize I'm in a vast minority.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ^_^_^_^ on January 11, 2012, 06:20:22 pm
If I felt like people actually ever meant it when they said "gl" or "gg", I wouldn't mind it, but it's such a formality that it just annoys the heck out of me. I generally try to avoid ever saying it unless I really mean it, and have probably annoyed a few people due to my dislike of them. Oh well.

Agreed, I find it very obnoxious actually.  What's wrong with a simple "Hello"?  that way you're still acknowledging that there's a person there, but you're not being fake, wishing "good luck" when you'd really rather they didn't have better luck than you anyway.

As for "gg"..  if it was *actually* a good game, then fine..  but it's obvious when the game wasn't good by any definition of the term, and if you just beat me 130 to 5 due to an insane goons engine that I couldn't get out from under, then the game was not "good", don't insult me by claiming that it was.  There's no way you'll ever convince me that a "gg" in that circumstance shouldn't be considered incredibly rude.
gg doesn't mean 'Well, friend, that was a really excellent game of Dominion we just played.'  It means 'I acknowledge that you, a human being, just played a game with me.  We both hoped to win, but only one of us did (unless it was a tie).  Thank you for your time.'
gg means good game. How you interpret it is completely up to you.
This is both true and unhelpful.  The literal meaning of a phrase often has very little to do with its social meaning.  'Break a leg' for example, clearly doesn't mean 'I want you to badly injure yourself.'

I think, in most cases, you'll find your life to make more sense if you interpret gg to mean what I said it means.  The same goes with 'how's it going?' and 'nice to meet you' and a bunch of other relatively vacuous social niceties.  People say them because it signals that you're willing to devote the modicum of interest necessary to get along in a social world.  The literal meaning is almost completely irrelevant.
I disagree, but I realize I'm in a vast minority.
You aren't alone.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DrHades on January 11, 2012, 09:06:18 pm
If I felt like people actually ever meant it when they said "gl" or "gg", I wouldn't mind it, but it's such a formality that it just annoys the heck out of me. I generally try to avoid ever saying it unless I really mean it, and have probably annoyed a few people due to my dislike of them. Oh well.

Agreed, I find it very obnoxious actually.  What's wrong with a simple "Hello"?  that way you're still acknowledging that there's a person there, but you're not being fake, wishing "good luck" when you'd really rather they didn't have better luck than you anyway.

As for "gg"..  if it was *actually* a good game, then fine..  but it's obvious when the game wasn't good by any definition of the term, and if you just beat me 130 to 5 due to an insane goons engine that I couldn't get out from under, then the game was not "good", don't insult me by claiming that it was.  There's no way you'll ever convince me that a "gg" in that circumstance shouldn't be considered incredibly rude.
gg doesn't mean 'Well, friend, that was a really excellent game of Dominion we just played.'  It means 'I acknowledge that you, a human being, just played a game with me.  We both hoped to win, but only one of us did (unless it was a tie).  Thank you for your time.'
gg means good game. How you interpret it is completely up to you.
This is both true and unhelpful.  The literal meaning of a phrase often has very little to do with its social meaning.  'Break a leg' for example, clearly doesn't mean 'I want you to badly injure yourself.'

I think, in most cases, you'll find your life to make more sense if you interpret gg to mean what I said it means.  The same goes with 'how's it going?' and 'nice to meet you' and a bunch of other relatively vacuous social niceties.  People say them because it signals that you're willing to devote the modicum of interest necessary to get along in a social world.  The literal meaning is almost completely irrelevant.

"Break a leg" acctually MEANS "I want you to badly injure yourself." This is because actors thinks that wishes like "good luck" are briging bad luck, so they started to say stuff like "break a leg" and it came to normal speech.
"How|s it going?" - It is an option for the other one to come up with something interesting that happened to them.
"Nice to meet you" - Aren't you? Really? It's nice to meet people, isn't it?

"Good game" - If the game was bad, it may even sound like mocking.

Edit: Minority? Right now it is 3-1 for us...but we might be just lucky to meet here and now ;D
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DsnowMan on January 11, 2012, 09:21:05 pm
Some (many? most?) people say "How's it going" and don't actually want to know the answer. Or, at least, hope you say "Fine, and you?".

I'm with the social convention crowd. I say "gg" to acknowledge the other person. I don't know them, I usually don't care to speak to them, but I will carry on a pleasant conversation if they initiate. Finally, I really don't care if they are offended because the game wasn't good.

I have real friends I play games with, and things are very different. With the anonymous avatars online... gg = thanks for the game.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DrHades on January 11, 2012, 09:54:51 pm
Some (many? most?) people say "How's it going" and don't actually want to know the answer. Or, at least, hope you say "Fine, and you?".

I am not saying that they give a crap about how are you doing, but they are giving you space to say e.g. "My grandma just died" so they won't come with their thing first if you have something important like this.

I'm with the social convention crowd. I say "gg" to acknowledge the other person. I don't know them, I usually don't care to speak to them, but I will carry on a pleasant conversation if they initiate. Finally, I really don't care if they are offended because the game wasn't good.

I have real friends I play games with, and things are very different. With the anonymous avatars online... gg = thanks for the game.

Ok, so you have real friends and you don't care about chatting with me, but you feel obligated to "acknowledge" me? What the hell do I have from your acknowledgement? I came here to play Dominion and of course it is nice to chat about the game if it was interesting, but I get literally nothing from a "gg".

Question for all you who thinks "gl...gg" and nothing else is polite:

You meet your neighbor in the building and say "Hello." just to be polite. But she is an old lonely lady and likes to talk to other people, so she starts telling you lots of stuff and you really don't care. Isn't it a bit impolite to just walk by her while she is talking?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ftl on January 11, 2012, 10:35:01 pm
For reference - I find the perfunctory gg completely fine. I play tennis, and in that it's also customary to shake your opponent's hand and say something along the lines of 'good game' or 'nice match' or something like that, regardless of the score or how the game actually went. Seems roughly equivalent to the end-game 'gg wp' which is common in online gaming.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: jonts26 on January 11, 2012, 11:00:28 pm
Anyone who did little league knows that after every game you get the inevitable line-up and good game and high five the other team thing. And there was always that brat who would obnoxiously say 'bad game' and punch your palm. I don't really care where you fall on the whole gg etiquette. Just don't be that kid. He was a prick.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on January 12, 2012, 01:47:15 am
Question for all you who thinks "gl...gg" and nothing else is polite:

You meet your neighbor in the building and say "Hello." just to be polite. But she is an old lonely lady and likes to talk to other people, so she starts telling you lots of stuff and you really don't care. Isn't it a bit impolite to just walk by her while she is talking?

You've introduced a different situation though.  I consider that "gl/hf... gg" to be polite (and the lack thereof to be somewhat impolite).  But if my opponent decides to start a conversation with me about the game, or other Dominion-related stuff, I'll happily join such a conversation.  To not do so would also be a bit impolite.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DrHades on January 12, 2012, 07:22:35 am
Question for all you who thinks "gl...gg" and nothing else is polite:

You meet your neighbor in the building and say "Hello." just to be polite. But she is an old lonely lady and likes to talk to other people, so she starts telling you lots of stuff and you really don't care. Isn't it a bit impolite to just walk by her while she is talking?

You've introduced a different situation though.  I consider that "gl/hf... gg" to be polite (and the lack thereof to be somewhat impolite).  But if my opponent decides to start a conversation with me about the game, or other Dominion-related stuff, I'll happily join such a conversation.  To not do so would also be a bit impolite.

If you read my first post, you'll see that I didn't introduce different situation ;)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rls22 on January 12, 2012, 03:56:11 pm
DrHades, I really think your view that saying only "hello, gl" is rude, is an outlier here.  The analogy to your little old lady scenario is if I say hello, and the other player says hello and then wants to chat about the game/strategy and I ignore them (which would be kind of rude).  It's perfectly common to just pass your neighbors in the hallway and say hello and nothing else...

My view, for what it's worth...

Greeting:  I almost always say something along the lines of "hi there, gl", unless I'm distracted at the beginning of the game and forget.  If I forget, I'm not offended at all if the other person doesn't say anything.  But, I do find it a little weird when I greet someone and they don't greet me back.   

Conversation mid-game:  I almost never talk, but don't mind chatting if the other person wants to.

GG:  I am with olneyce and DsnowMan.  In this community, it basically means, thanks for the game (I do like the Little League analogy too - even if you really hated to lose, you had to say good game...).  So, I almost always say it.  If I really trounce the other person, sometimes I'll say "thanks for the game" (recognizing that the other person might view "gg" as rubbing it in).  If it actually was a particularly great game (maybe 5% of the time?) I will say something more to acknowledge that.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: toaster on January 12, 2012, 05:15:08 pm
If someone says "gg" to a game that wasn't actually good, I'll often say "nah, it really wasn't".  I will however follow that up with a "thanks for the game though".  If typing the phrase "thanks for the game" is too much effort, then a silent exit works just as well with me..."gg" demonstrates to me nothing more than that the person has developed a learned three keystroke reflex, perhaps some people mean it sincerely each time they type it, but there's no way to meaningfully distinguish that from the case where it's just a thoughtless habit.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ^_^_^_^ on January 12, 2012, 06:11:21 pm
If someone says "gg" to a game that wasn't actually good, I'll often say "nah, it really wasn't".  I will however follow that up with a "thanks for the game though".  If typing the phrase "thanks for the game" is too much effort, then a silent exit works just as well with me..."gg" demonstrates to me nothing more than that the person has developed a learned three keystroke reflex, perhaps some people mean it sincerely each time they type it, but there's no way to meaningfully distinguish that from the case where it's just a thoughtless habit.
The problem for me(and others) with that is it takes too long. Others will either leave or say gg then consider you rude and leave because you didn't say gg back fast etc.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ackack on January 12, 2012, 06:16:26 pm
"gg" demonstrates to me nothing more than that the person has developed a learned three keystroke reflex, perhaps some people mean it sincerely each time they type it, but there's no way to meaningfully distinguish that from the case where it's just a thoughtless habit.

I think that's the thing. Comparing this to face to face interactions is rough because in face to face interactions there are other channels of communication beyond the perfunctory language.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: toaster on January 12, 2012, 06:48:33 pm
The problem for me(and others) with that is it takes too long. Others will either leave or say gg then consider you rude and leave because you didn't say gg back fast etc.

Well, that's kind of my point.  If anyone isn't willing to spend five seconds at the end of the game to thank the other person, then the whole exercise is really rather a sham: I'd just as soon leave silently at that point, and I hardly think it's reasonable to consider someone rude for not responding if they don't reply to a "gg" within a second or two.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DrHades on January 12, 2012, 07:56:09 pm
DrHades, I really think your view that saying only "hello, gl" is rude, is an outlier here.  The analogy to your little old lady scenario is if I say hello, and the other player says hello and then wants to chat about the game/strategy and I ignore them (which would be kind of rude).  It's perfectly common to just pass your neighbors in the hallway and say hello and nothing else...

My view, for what it's worth...

Greeting:  I almost always say something along the lines of "hi there, gl", unless I'm distracted at the beginning of the game and forget.  If I forget, I'm not offended at all if the other person doesn't say anything.  But, I do find it a little weird when I greet someone and they don't greet me back.   

Conversation mid-game:  I almost never talk, but don't mind chatting if the other person wants to.

GG:  I am with olneyce and DsnowMan.  In this community, it basically means, thanks for the game (I do like the Little League analogy too - even if you really hated to lose, you had to say good game...).  So, I almost always say it.  If I really trounce the other person, sometimes I'll say "thanks for the game" (recognizing that the other person might view "gg" as rubbing it in).  If it actually was a particularly great game (maybe 5% of the time?) I will say something more to acknowledge that.

Again - I don't find gg rude (after a bad game it is funny, but not rude). I think that "hello-gg" is very rude if you don't answer to whatever giberish your opponent says in the middle. That's my point all the time, but sometimes I have problem to make myself clear (even in my native language)  ;D
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on January 12, 2012, 09:40:19 pm
You've introduced a different situation though....
If you read my first post, you'll see that I didn't introduce different situation ;)
Ah, going back a page or two, I see that.  Someone who says "gl hf" and "gg" and nothing else is, IMO, just fine if the other player engages in no other conversation.  It rubs me the wrong way when I do try to add more to the conversation and there's no response, so I can agree with you on that point.

However, if the entire conversation is "glhf... gg" from both players, I find that in no way impolite.  It looks a bit strange to those not otherwise into computer games, I suppose.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: popsofctown on January 13, 2012, 04:12:21 am
To me I think gg has kind of changed to mean, "thanks for spending the time to compete with me, no one cheated, it was an honorable game."  I see people saying "bg" as exploiting a semantic technicality.

It's silly to hold gg to the standard that it has to be an assessment of the quality of the game.  The winner can honestly miss where luck favored him heavily, or disagree that it did, or perhaps even think it did when the loser feels that he lost due to poor strategy and felt it really was a good game and learning experience.


It's ok to substitute "thanks for playing" instead of gg if you want to.  Just don't be the guy that refuses to shake my hand because you drafted 22 crappy black cards and a Grave Titan and think it's lady fortune's fault you lost when the Titan is halfway through your deck.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: chogg on January 13, 2012, 05:40:28 am
To me I think gg has kind of changed to mean, "thanks for spending the time to compete with me, no one cheated, it was an honorable game."

Yes, I think you nailed it here.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kahryl on January 13, 2012, 01:05:29 pm
gg means "I value your presence at least enough to type three characters that are not necessary for me to play the game".  It's not a LOT, but it is different from a thoughtless reflex because you could abandon it and still play Dominion just fine.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: permanoob on January 13, 2012, 08:53:07 pm
17:44 Kaplow!: gay
17:44 Permanoob: don't say gat
17:44 Permanoob: gay
17:44 Kaplow!: y?
17:45 Permanoob: it's not nice to homosexuals
17:45 Kaplow!: fine
17:45 Kaplow!: fag
17:45 Kaplow!: i am gay cocksucker
17:45 Permanoob: Fag is also a curse word
17:46 Kaplow!: PLAY
17:46 Permanoob: also I really don't care if you're gay
17:47 Kaplow!: FASTER
17:48 Permanoob: you're being impolite
17:50 Kaplow!: you're being a sore loser. you suck at this game!
17:50 Kaplow! has returned to the lobby.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/13/game-20120113-175012-99aac32b.html

Here's the game log. I was one point behind. I hate this guy so much.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on January 13, 2012, 09:00:27 pm
17:44 Kaplow!: gay
17:44 Permanoob: don't say gat
17:44 Permanoob: gay
17:44 Kaplow!: y?
17:45 Permanoob: it's not nice to homosexuals
17:45 Kaplow!: fine
17:45 Kaplow!: fag
17:45 Kaplow!: i am gay cocksucker
17:45 Permanoob: Fag is also a curse word
17:46 Kaplow!: PLAY
17:46 Permanoob: also I really don't care if you're gay
17:47 Kaplow!: FASTER
17:48 Permanoob: you're being impolite
17:50 Kaplow!: you're being a sore loser. you suck at this game!
17:50 Kaplow! has returned to the lobby.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/13/game-20120113-175012-99aac32b.html

Here's the game log. I was one point behind. I hate this guy so much.

That's why you always use a point counter.
Must be especially annoying since in hindsight you would've won if you didn't take that last curse.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ^_^_^_^ on January 14, 2012, 12:05:53 am
17:44 Kaplow!: gay
17:44 Permanoob: don't say gat
17:44 Permanoob: gay
17:44 Kaplow!: y?
17:45 Permanoob: it's not nice to homosexuals
17:45 Kaplow!: fine
17:45 Kaplow!: fag
17:45 Kaplow!: i am gay cocksucker
17:45 Permanoob: Fag is also a curse word
17:46 Kaplow!: PLAY
17:46 Permanoob: also I really don't care if you're gay
17:47 Kaplow!: FASTER
17:48 Permanoob: you're being impolite
17:50 Kaplow!: you're being a sore loser. you suck at this game!
17:50 Kaplow! has returned to the lobby.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/13/game-20120113-175012-99aac32b.html

Here's the game log. I was one point behind. I hate this guy so much.
Honestly, the line "don't say gay" on the internet is the worst thing to say. That line causes bad conversations lol. And is leaving bait for trolls.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Anon79 on January 14, 2012, 05:05:57 am
What's with revealing the Trader 3 times?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on January 14, 2012, 08:36:33 am
17:44 Kaplow!: gay
17:44 Permanoob: don't say gat
17:44 Permanoob: gay
17:44 Kaplow!: y?
17:45 Permanoob: it's not nice to homosexuals
17:45 Kaplow!: fine
17:45 Kaplow!: fag
17:45 Kaplow!: i am gay cocksucker
17:45 Permanoob: Fag is also a curse word
17:46 Kaplow!: PLAY
17:46 Permanoob: also I really don't care if you're gay
17:47 Kaplow!: FASTER
17:48 Permanoob: you're being impolite
17:50 Kaplow!: you're being a sore loser. you suck at this game!
17:50 Kaplow! has returned to the lobby.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/13/game-20120113-175012-99aac32b.html

Here's the game log. I was one point behind. I hate this guy so much.
Honestly, the line "don't say gay" on the internet is the worst thing to say.

Please tell me you aren't serious....
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ^_^_^_^ on January 14, 2012, 08:42:53 am
17:44 Kaplow!: gay
17:44 Permanoob: don't say gat
17:44 Permanoob: gay
17:44 Kaplow!: y?
17:45 Permanoob: it's not nice to homosexuals
17:45 Kaplow!: fine
17:45 Kaplow!: fag
17:45 Kaplow!: i am gay cocksucker
17:45 Permanoob: Fag is also a curse word
17:46 Kaplow!: PLAY
17:46 Permanoob: also I really don't care if you're gay
17:47 Kaplow!: FASTER
17:48 Permanoob: you're being impolite
17:50 Kaplow!: you're being a sore loser. you suck at this game!
17:50 Kaplow! has returned to the lobby.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/13/game-20120113-175012-99aac32b.html

Here's the game log. I was one point behind. I hate this guy so much.
Honestly, the line "don't say gay" on the internet is the worst thing to say.

Please tell me you aren't serious....
Actually I am. Anyone that wants to troll/flame can easily do so with a line like that baiting them to. It is just so easy to go "trololol" to that line. The chat is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: rrenaud on January 14, 2012, 10:08:49 am
New forum rule exclusively for ^_^_^_^.

You aren't allowed to start meta discussion.  You can post about Dominion, but you can't post about other posts, unless directly replying to their content.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on January 17, 2012, 01:39:21 pm
Please tell me you aren't serious....
Actually I am. Anyone that wants to troll/flame can easily do so with a line like that baiting them to. It is just so easy to go "trololol" to that line. The chat is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's the worst thing to say, but I do agree that trying to correct someone's online behavior by saying, "Don't say gay," is just feeding the trolls.

By saying that, you've exposed yourself as someone who does not appreciate speech that derogates gays. This sets the stage for the guy to do his best to piss you off, and he has a whole library of slurs to throw at you.

People who are sensitive to homosexuals already know not to say, "That's so gay." In my experience, there is a tiny sliver of the "That's so gay" population who honestly don't realize how hurtful it can be and would actually change their ways if this were brought to their attention. It's noble to try to change this tiny section of the users, but usually you end up with mega-troll. If you're willing to accept the abuse that is likely to happen, then go ahead and chide them. Otherwise, it's like chiding a brick wall.

If I feel like addressing that at all, I go a different tack. I may say something like, "You're wrong. The Duchess is not gay because she has a baby. Duh." By taking it literally, I demonstrate how stupid the phrase is. Granted, that pretty much goes over the heads of most of the people who are apt to say, "That's so gay."

Alternatively, I could counter with, "You're right. It's FABULOUS!"
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on January 17, 2012, 10:28:42 pm
Don't say gay.  Say Takei!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: permanoob on January 19, 2012, 09:54:52 pm
Just played another game with Kaplow! He was very polite and explained to me that his roomate sometimes uses his laptop and doesn't sign out. I've seen people use that excuse before and then later be revealed to be lying but I guess I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now. Also I lost to his jerkface roomate by a single point and took a landslide victory against him so that's decent evidence I suppose.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: metzgerism on January 25, 2012, 02:01:46 am
It's human nature to get really upset and defensive when losing, so it's important to remember where people are coming from.  Not responding in kind can do wonders for the online atmosphere.

I agree: Here was my good morning game dialog:

 5:51 KMueller: gg
 5:51 S******: lucky f%$#
 5:51 KMueller: yeah
 5:51 S******: grosss
 5:51 S******: you play like s^%$
 5:51 S******: and get rewarded
 5:51 KMueller: love you too
 5:51 Shroomchild has returned to the lobby.

We played a very similar game, the only difference I bought a Remodel one shuffle before him and grabbed the last Prov. using it and a gold.

I agree that the gg, gl, hf are not the be all end all, but they at least indicate a willingness to chat, if the other person is interested.

Edit: Cartoon profanities to replace his
Got a game against this jerk (shroomchild) just now.
Yep, called me an f-ing idiot. Specifically for (successfully) switching to a Gardens strategy when I noticed he was going to do it.

Don't play with him if you have the opportunity.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Piemaster on January 25, 2012, 04:23:48 am
Fun game I just had on Iso...

 — Piemaster's turn 3 —
   Piemaster plays 4 Coppers.
   Piemaster buys a Sea Hag.
   (Piemaster draws: a Market, 2 Coppers, a Moat, and an Estate.)

9:17 Shroomchild: You going to do that sea hag bullshit?
9:17 Piemaster: What, you mean 'playing Seahag'?
9:18 Shroomchild: Yeah
9:18 Piemaster: No, I brought it because of the pretty picture
9:18 Shroomchild: Get ready scumfuck

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/25/game-20120125-012102-5533242c.html
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on January 27, 2012, 07:57:43 pm
So, uh, ready to play the bronze match, with 'tournament games only' as my status, in Secret Chamber, just had a guy propose several consecutive games to me (of course I declined), then say this:

18:52 KlanPower: PLAY ME MOTHERFUCKER
18:52 WanderingWinder: Dude, KlanPower
18:52 KlanPower: I'M BETTER THAN YOU
18:52 WanderingWinder: Chill
18:52 KlanPower: seriously
18:52 KlanPower: play my ass
18:52 WanderingWinder: whether you are or not, I'm here to play someone else
18:52 KlanPower: ill kick your black ass
18:52 WanderingWinder: as it says in my status
18:53 KlanPower: who gives a fuck
18:53 KlanPower: ill kick your ass so fast it wont even matter
18:53 KlanPower: you can get your pussyass tournament games in
18:53 NICKELBACK IS GOD: Anyone got tickets to the new Nickelback tour?
18:53 NICKELBACK IS GOD: I'M SO EXCITED!
18:53 KlanPower: nickelback sucks massive
18:53 KlanPower: dick
18:54 KlanPower: theyre just a shitty white boy band
18:54 NICKELBACK IS GOD: THEIR NOT A WHITE BOY BAND THERE HARD RAWK
18:54 zerovoice: ...
18:55 KlanPower: hey shut the fuck up faggot
18:55 zerovoice: ...
18:55 KlanPower: I SAID SHUT THE FUCK UP
18:55 zerovoice: ...
18:55 KlanPower: THE HOLOCAUST WAS EXAGGERATED
18:55 NICKELBACK IS GOD: I'M GONNA SING MY HEART'S SONG


And every yay-so-often, he's proposing a game again.

By far the worst thing I've ever seen on there. The dude's unregistered, if you were curious.

Oh, and then a couple minutes later:

zerovoice, NICKELBACK IS GOD, and KlanPower begin a game.

Yeah...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DrHades on January 27, 2012, 08:11:24 pm
So, uh, ready to play the bronze match, with 'tournament games only' as my status, in Secret Chamber, just had a guy propose several consecutive games to me (of course I declined), then say this:

18:52 KlanPower: PLAY ME MOTHERFUCKER
18:52 WanderingWinder: Dude, KlanPower
18:52 KlanPower: I'M BETTER THAN YOU
18:52 WanderingWinder: Chill
18:52 KlanPower: seriously
18:52 KlanPower: play my ass
18:52 WanderingWinder: whether you are or not, I'm here to play someone else
18:52 KlanPower: ill kick your black ass
18:52 WanderingWinder: as it says in my status
18:53 KlanPower: who gives a fuck
18:53 KlanPower: ill kick your ass so fast it wont even matter
18:53 KlanPower: you can get your pussyass tournament games in
18:53 NICKELBACK IS GOD: Anyone got tickets to the new Nickelback tour?
18:53 NICKELBACK IS GOD: I'M SO EXCITED!
18:53 KlanPower: nickelback sucks massive
18:53 KlanPower: dick
18:54 KlanPower: theyre just a shitty white boy band
18:54 NICKELBACK IS GOD: THEIR NOT A WHITE BOY BAND THERE HARD RAWK
18:54 zerovoice: ...
18:55 KlanPower: hey shut the fuck up faggot
18:55 zerovoice: ...
18:55 KlanPower: I SAID SHUT THE FUCK UP
18:55 zerovoice: ...
18:55 KlanPower: THE HOLOCAUST WAS EXAGGERATED
18:55 NICKELBACK IS GOD: I'M GONNA SING MY HEART'S SONG


And every yay-so-often, he's proposing a game again.

By far the worst thing I've ever seen on there. The dude's unregistered, if you were curious.

Oh, and then a couple minutes later:

zerovoice, NICKELBACK IS GOD, and KlanPower begin a game.

Yeah...

I wouldn't be surprised if it was just one really bored really sad person...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Lekkit on January 27, 2012, 11:49:07 pm
Quote from: WanderingWinder
A really long quote

Then I realized...

So, uh, ready to play the bronze match

... And quickly headed over to WW's Livestream, not even stopping by the DomStrat-part of the forum, finding the first game in the series, without watching how many there were to be able to watch them without getting the result spoiled.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ^_^_^_^ on January 28, 2012, 03:47:54 am
Lol WW I have to bookmark that post now. So hilarious :D. The ending is the best part. If that happened to me I would pretend to be afk and actually just go read the forum. :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on January 30, 2012, 10:37:00 am
18:52 KlanPower: PLAY ME MOTHERFUCKER
........
18:55 KlanPower: THE HOLOCAUST WAS EXAGGERATED

I'm usually one to say that you should be the better person and not intentionally be a douche AFKer as retribution for someone else's bad behavior.

If this happened to me, I'd be pretty tempted to engage in douchy behavior. The justification would be easy enough: The guy is only there to troll people, not play games.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: GendoIkari on January 30, 2012, 10:45:19 am
Fun game I just had on Iso...

 — Piemaster's turn 3 —
   Piemaster plays 4 Coppers.
   Piemaster buys a Sea Hag.
   (Piemaster draws: a Market, 2 Coppers, a Moat, and an Estate.)

9:17 Shroomchild: You going to do that sea hag bullshit?
9:17 Piemaster: What, you mean 'playing Seahag'?
9:18 Shroomchild: Yeah
9:18 Piemaster: No, I brought it because of the pretty picture
9:18 Shroomchild: Get ready scumfuck

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/25/game-20120125-012102-5533242c.html

The guy bought a Village on turn 1 and on turn 3. His opponent playing Sea Hag is the least of his Dominion worries...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on January 30, 2012, 10:47:56 am
Fun game I just had on Iso...

 — Piemaster's turn 3 —
   Piemaster plays 4 Coppers.
   Piemaster buys a Sea Hag.
   (Piemaster draws: a Market, 2 Coppers, a Moat, and an Estate.)

9:17 Shroomchild: You going to do that sea hag bullshit?
9:17 Piemaster: What, you mean 'playing Seahag'?
9:18 Shroomchild: Yeah
9:18 Piemaster: No, I brought it because of the pretty picture
9:18 Shroomchild: Get ready scumfuck

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/25/game-20120125-012102-5533242c.html

The guy bought a Village on turn 1 and on turn 3. His opponent playing Sea Hag is the least of his Dominion worries...
But Village is like the BEST CARD. It lets you play MORE ACTIONS. And its so CHEAP!!!!!!!
;)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Lekkit on January 30, 2012, 10:54:15 am
As a TCG player, this is most certainly true. At least it was at first. I mean... "Look at all them cards I'm playing on my turn! This must give me an advantage! I better buy more Villages and more Markets!"
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Piemaster on January 31, 2012, 05:44:06 am
10:35 Piemaster: gg
10:35 fish: fuck you die in a fire

I wouldn't mind if the game had been particularly bad tempered, but these were the first words exchanged by either player all game.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: blueblimp on February 08, 2012, 04:18:58 am
I'm fairly new to isotropic and generally I've had really good luck with civility, especially compared to a lot of other online games (where people are mostly assholes). In fact, lots of people are willing to discuss strategy after games, sometimes even if they lost, which is really nice for improving when they are a high-level player.

The worst incivility I've encountered so far was after some KC-Swindler shenanigans. (To be fair, that's about as rage-inducing as anything in Dominion.)

Quote
18:45 Bengoshi: man, has anyone ever told you that you are a jackass who dserves to be shot at close range in the head?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Dave970 on February 08, 2012, 10:46:06 am
...The worst incivility I've encountered so far was after some KC-Swindler shenanigans...

eeeeeeeeeevil shenanigans!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Dave970 on February 13, 2012, 01:14:53 am
"Player 1" likes to leave you with a nice "fuck u" after you beat him.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Ozle on February 13, 2012, 10:09:16 am
Hillarious rants by opposition players always amuses me as they are either
A) Just swearing and ranting
or sometimes
B) Carefully constructed funny rants

I'd rather someone went off on one than just say 'gg' because at least i know then that they cared! hehe

Plus, Id rather have an opponent tell me where I went wrong, my ego can take it (Even if they gloat when they do it)

But a bit of cheeky banter in game wouldn't go amiss
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Ozle on February 13, 2012, 10:12:01 am
Oh and gg and gl are pointless.
Especially as I wouldn't mean the GL

Why on earth would you want your opponent to have good luck? Thats crazy!

NL for neutral luck would be much more realistic!

Anyway, i usually start with 'Hiya'
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: olneyce on February 13, 2012, 10:29:39 am
Why on earth would you want your opponent to have good luck? Thats crazy!
Because it's a game, not a war. 
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Ozle on February 13, 2012, 10:31:10 am
Why on earth would you want your opponent to have good luck? Thats crazy!
Because it's a game, not a war.

So because I don't want an opponent to get lucky on me it makes it like a war?!

Not wanting him to have bad luck isn't the same as wanting him to have good luck.
Surely you want equal luck for everybody, that way the game is more likely based on skill than luck?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DStu on February 13, 2012, 10:37:26 am
Why on earth would you want your opponent to have good luck? Thats crazy!
Because it's a game, not a war.

So because I don't want an opponent to get lucky on me it makes it like a war?!

On a related topic... (http://www.xkcd.com/945/)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Ozle on February 13, 2012, 10:39:29 am
Exactly!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Piemaster on February 14, 2012, 01:35:46 am
I think it's pretty much accepted on any online game that gl and gg don't really mean much, they are just a way of acknowledging your opponent without giving the impression that you necessarily want to start a conversation (like 'hi' sometimes does).  If someone says gg to me when it clearly wasn't a good game, I might make a joke of it, or just say gg back, but I certainly won't take offence.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ecq on February 14, 2012, 09:18:47 am
"A way of acknowledging your opponent" hits the nail on the head for me.  If wishing someone good luck seems disingenuous, then don't.  If saying "gg" seems vacuous, don't say that either.  Do say something cordial, though.  Your opponent is a real person taking a few minutes out of his/her life to sit down and play a game with you.  It's fine if you're not feeling conversational, but you can at least acknowledge that fact.

In terms of "gg" in particular, I see it as sort of the post-game handshake, not an actual statement about the quality of the game.  In that context, leaving immediately after the game without saying anything strikes me as rude and unsporting.  So, saying nothing says something.  If "gg" feels vacuous, say something respectful that doesn't.  If it was a particularly bad game, well, hate the game, not the player.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Echo354 on February 14, 2012, 02:17:10 pm
I generally don't say "hf" or "gl" to open a game, not because I'm offended by them in any way, but because I don't really think about it. I don't mind if my opponent and I don't talk; I'm not a particularly talkative person myself. If they do provide something, though (be it "gg", "gl", "hf", "hi", or whatever else) I'll respond (often with something like a "you too"). Lately I've commented on games more often, if I've had particularly good or bad luck I might mention it, or if a strategy of mine works particularly well or poorly I'll say something. I don't get offended if my opponent doesn't respond, they might just not feel like talking, which is cool. I always end the game with "gg", though.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Cheese on February 14, 2012, 09:35:16 pm
In terms of "gg" in particular, I see it as sort of the post-game handshake, not an actual statement about the quality of the game.  In that context, leaving immediately after the game without saying anything strikes me as rude and unsporting.  So, saying nothing says something.  If "gg" feels vacuous, say something respectful that doesn't.  If it was a particularly bad game, well, hate the game, not the player.

I think this is precisely correct. I think anyone who believes these gestures are vacuous is looking at it through the lens of friendliness rather than that of respect.

Friendliness is when you are happy, energetic, and engaging. It is hugging. It is smiley faces and exaggerated positivity. It is generally a given among, well, friends, but certainly not restricted to them.

Respect is when you are courteous and acknowledge that the person you are interacting with is neither above nor below you. It is shaking hands. It is "please" and "thank you", "sir" and "ma'am".

Friendliness can be great, but respect is mandatory. When we go out to eat, my sister is friendly but disrespectful. She is always bubbly and engaging, but she calls waiters "hon" or "sweetie" and generally wastes their time. I am the exact opposite. I am terse and rarely engage the staff in any meaningful way, but I am always extremely polite and never get visibly upset about anything. She has at least three stories of waiters or waitresses who had "attitude"; I eat out far more often and have never had anything close to such an issue.

tl;dr Just say "gg", it's a respect thing. If you want to be friendly, which is a choice, of course there's no harm in going the extra step.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on February 14, 2012, 10:30:47 pm
Friendliness can be great, but respect is mandatory.

Well put, I like it.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jack Rudd on March 05, 2012, 05:12:43 pm
22:11 Jack Rudd: gg
22:12 Dr.AnulSniffer: faggot fucker
22:12 Dr.AnulSniffer: let me win bitch
22:12 Dr.AnulSniffer has returned to the lobby.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Axxle on March 05, 2012, 08:09:28 pm
22:11 Jack Rudd: gg
22:12 Dr.AnulSniffer: faggot fucker
22:12 Dr.AnulSniffer: let me win bitch
22:12 Dr.AnulSniffer has returned to the lobby.

If there was ever a reason to judge a book by its cover...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Ozle on March 06, 2012, 06:32:40 am

He could have been going down the road of A Nul Sniffer, possibly to set up a "My dog has no nose" joke....
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 07, 2012, 06:43:09 am
While not too offensive, here is a posting of comments after I won the game. It was a Goons game with Menagerie and no +action, and I ended up buying all ten Menageries, and yet the guy was calling me a noob even though he ran more Goons than he should have and ignored Menagerie altogether. Like I said, not too bad, but still.

 3:24 Beyond Awesome: gg
 3:35 Yaz: gg lucksac novice
 3:35 Yaz: nice drawing
 3:35 Beyond Awesome: Thanks
 3:35 Yaz: noob
 3:35 Beyond Awesome: I figured to just run one Goons that way they don't collide
 3:35 Yaz: keep typing
 3:35 Beyond Awesome: And, Menagerie helps counter Goons
 3:36 Beyond Awesome: So, why you calling me a noob
 3:36 Beyond Awesome: Well...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 07, 2012, 08:30:32 am
While not too offensive, here is a posting of comments after I won the game. It was a Goons game with Menagerie and no +action, and I ended up buying all ten Menageries, and yet the guy was calling me a noob even though he ran more Goons than he should have and ignored Menagerie altogether. Like I said, not too bad, but still.

 3:24 Beyond Awesome: gg
 3:35 Yaz: gg lucksac novice
 3:35 Yaz: nice drawing
 3:35 Beyond Awesome: Thanks
 3:35 Yaz: noob
 3:35 Beyond Awesome: I figured to just run one Goons that way they don't collide
 3:35 Yaz: keep typing
 3:35 Beyond Awesome: And, Menagerie helps counter Goons
 3:36 Beyond Awesome: So, why you calling me a noob
 3:36 Beyond Awesome: Well...
To be fair, you should buy more than one goons there, even with menageries.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on March 07, 2012, 11:36:40 am
lucksac novice

Lucksac novice might need to be my new internet handle.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on March 07, 2012, 03:48:51 pm
A level 21 calling a level 22 a "noob" is just priceless.

That said, WW is right, two or three Goons would have been better there.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 08, 2012, 04:12:05 am
A level 21 calling a level 22 a "noob" is just priceless.

That said, WW is right, two or three Goons would have been better there.

Well, there was no +action, and Highway was also on the board which is why I ran one. I wanted to draw as many highways to go with my goons as possible.

Actually, since there was no +action, the optimal strategy may have been to go BM w/Menageries to counter the Goons discard and just buy Province and Duchy.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 08, 2012, 08:35:26 am
A level 21 calling a level 22 a "noob" is just priceless.

That said, WW is right, two or three Goons would have been better there.

Well, there was no +action, and Highway was also on the board which is why I ran one. I wanted to draw as many highways to go with my goons as possible.

Actually, since there was no +action, the optimal strategy may have been to go BM w/Menageries to counter the Goons discard and just buy Province and Duchy.
Except it's not. You still want multiple goons, for sure. Which of course doesn't excuse behaviour, but yeah, you want more goons, even with all this other stuff.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Tahtweasel on March 09, 2012, 01:49:12 pm
A level 21 calling a level 22 a "noob" is just priceless.

That said, WW is right, two or three Goons would have been better there.
I've been called "lucky" for winning against someone 1,793 spots below me on the isotropic leaderboard. It was a board that had Witch, and he didn't buy Witch.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: GendoIkari on March 09, 2012, 01:55:07 pm
A level 21 calling a level 22 a "noob" is just priceless.

That said, WW is right, two or three Goons would have been better there.
I've been called "lucky" for winning against someone 1,793 spots below me on the isotropic leaderboard. It was a board that had Witch, and he didn't buy Witch.

You were just lucky that you managed to draw your Witch. :P
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ftl on March 09, 2012, 02:29:28 pm
Hah, I just had Yaz give me the same treatment. He left and made me wait for the timeout, too.

He complained that I got lucky draws - that's after I got two ambassadors to his one, got rid of everything unnecessary, and had like 5 labs in my deck. Yeah, I'll get lucky draws after there's nothing bad left to draw...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: GendoIkari on March 09, 2012, 02:41:38 pm
Hah, I just had Yaz give me the same treatment. He left and made me wait for the timeout, too.

He complained that I got lucky draws - that's after I got two ambassadors to his one, got rid of everything unnecessary, and had like 5 labs in my deck. Yeah, I'll get lucky draws after there's nothing bad left to draw...

I played double-Ambassador a few weeks ago and lost horribly... not sure if it was bad luck or if I misjudged the board, but afterwards my opponent asked me if I was actually trying at all that game. I told him yes, that normally double-Ambassador is quite strong. He said he'd never heard of such a strategy.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Tahtweasel on March 09, 2012, 03:03:42 pm
Double Ambassador is quite luck-dependent, but very strong on average.

The ideal draws for turns 3 and 4 are AEECC followed by AECCC. On the triple-copper hand, you send the estate and buy a silver.

With a single Ambassador, AECCC usually means sending the two coppers.

But with two Ambassadors, it's different; you have two terminals, no buying power, and a fast-thinning deck.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 10, 2012, 07:36:34 am
I've had a level 42 tell me THIS WEEK that he had 0 chance of winning on turn 0, because of the opening split, and then later revised it to 5%...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Ozle on March 10, 2012, 07:39:30 am
I've had a level 42 tell me THIS WEEK that he had 0 chance of winning on turn 0, because of the opening split, and then later revised it to 5%...

Ahhh, but did he win?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 10, 2012, 07:45:12 am
I've had a level 42 tell me THIS WEEK that he had 0 chance of winning on turn 0, because of the opening split, and then later revised it to 5%...

Ahhh, but did he win?
No.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on March 12, 2012, 08:42:43 am
I've had a level 42 tell me THIS WEEK that he had 0 chance of winning on turn 0, because of the opening split, and then later revised it to 5%...

Ahhh, but did he win?
No.

I kind of wonder if that was a self-fulfilling prophecy. He felt he wouldn't win, so his mind was no longer fully on the game.

Although, it's also likely that you just beat him with skill.

Still, at least he lost after having said that. There's one guy in my group that usually laments decisions he made and says that they'll cost him the game. Several times he pulls ahead and wins the game. Very annoying to hear someone complain about how he's going to lose and then be trounced by him.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: GendoIkari on March 12, 2012, 09:21:53 am
I've had a level 42 tell me THIS WEEK that he had 0 chance of winning on turn 0, because of the opening split, and then later revised it to 5%...

Ahhh, but did he win?
No.

I kind of wonder if that was a self-fulfilling prophecy. He felt he wouldn't win, so his mind was no longer fully on the game.

Although, it's also likely that you just beat him with skill.

Still, at least he lost after having said that. There's one guy in my group that usually laments decisions he made and says that they'll cost him the game. Several times he pulls ahead and wins the game. Very annoying to hear someone complain about how he's going to lose and then be trounced by him.

In a game with more politics, like Settlers of Catan, it's usually important to say things like that to get people to think you are behind. ;D Not so much in Dominion, though.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 12, 2012, 09:24:32 am
I've had a level 42 tell me THIS WEEK that he had 0 chance of winning on turn 0, because of the opening split, and then later revised it to 5%...

Ahhh, but did he win?
No.

I kind of wonder if that was a self-fulfilling prophecy. He felt he wouldn't win, so his mind was no longer fully on the game.

Although, it's also likely that you just beat him with skill.

Still, at least he lost after having said that. There's one guy in my group that usually laments decisions he made and says that they'll cost him the game. Several times he pulls ahead and wins the game. Very annoying to hear someone complain about how he's going to lose and then be trounced by him.

Okay, to be fair to him, I definitely had a big advantage from shuffle luck early on. It's just, there's no way that the first shuffle gives you THAT much advantage. Like, I think I played well enough, he played pretty close to optimally, and I won anyway. Okay, this is actually a big part of the game.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on March 12, 2012, 02:45:44 pm
Okay, to be fair to him, I definitely had a big advantage from shuffle luck early on. It's just, there's no way that the first shuffle gives you THAT much advantage. Like, I think I played well enough, he played pretty close to optimally, and I won anyway. Okay, this is actually a big part of the game.

I think it's quite possible for the opening split to bring one's chances of winning to 10-20%.  Opening Mountebank/Chapel or Witch/Chapel vs. Silver/Chapel is not a guaranteed win, but it sure it close.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on March 12, 2012, 02:58:27 pm
Okay, to be fair to him, I definitely had a big advantage from shuffle luck early on. It's just, there's no way that the first shuffle gives you THAT much advantage. Like, I think I played well enough, he played pretty close to optimally, and I won anyway. Okay, this is actually a big part of the game.

I think it's quite possible for the opening split to bring one's chances of winning to 10-20%.  Opening Mountebank/Chapel or Witch/Chapel vs. Silver/Chapel is not a guaranteed win, but it sure it close.
Nope. That's not even 2-1 (basically 3-2), according to the sims, and I can't think they play them THAT badly.
The game in question was highway/chapel vs silver/chapel.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: shMerker on March 12, 2012, 04:24:28 pm
I haven't read this whole thread yet but I just wanted to throw in that I usually just take it as a compliment when the other player resigns. I didn't just win, I proved to the other player that he couldn't stop me. To me that's an extra victory. I don't specifically shoot for resignations--I wouldn't try setting up a relentless attack if I don't think it's also the most effective way to win, for instance--but I'm never offended by them.

If you feel like your opponent's complaints after that point are rude remember that it's possible you just caused him to feel a bit of despair. That's not pleasant even when the stakes are as low as they are in a friendly game. It takes practice to learn how to lose gracefully and learn from it and games like this are a good instrument for that growth of character.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Diving Pikachu on March 28, 2012, 11:20:13 pm
A strange exchange:

Quote
16:04 Vermont: Howdy
16:05 Vermont: Greetings
16:07 Vermont: Bonjour
16:08 Vermont: Guten tag
16:09 Vermont: Aloha?
16:10 Vermont: You do realize you are playing a person and not the computer, right?
16:11 cornucopoo-ah: i've never encountered a bot on isotropic....
16:11 cornucopoo-ah: have you?
16:11 Vermont: oh good, you are just rude then
16:11 Vermont: Good to know  :)
16:12 cornucopoo-ah: not talking is not rude
16:12 Vermont: Actually, it is. I can't imagine you completely ignoring someone that says hello to you.
16:13 Vermont: There are solitaire apps online that may be a better fit for you.

I eventually get the upperhand, and he starts playing very slowly...

Quote
16:21 cornucopoo-ah: Are you lagging or do you have some difficult decisions to make?
16:21 cornucopoo-ah: Or is there something else preoccupying you?
16:21 Vermont: slow playing is not rude
16:32 cornucopoo-ah: Langsames Spielen ist nicht unhöflich?
16:35 cornucopoo-ah: You were going so slow I had the chance to make you resign.
16:36 Vermont: Yup; doing other stuff.
16:37 cornucopoo-ah: I see the button right now.
16:37 cornucopoo-ah: You have ten seconds to press something
16:38 Vermont: lol. Why on earth would you want this to go longer? I'm just doing other work and delaying as long as I can.
16:38 Vermont: I figure we should both be rude.

We went on for a bit before he eventually disconnected.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: RisingJaguar on March 29, 2012, 12:22:00 am
A strange exchange:

Quote
16:04 Vermont: Howdy
16:05 Vermont: Greetings
16:07 Vermont: Bonjour
16:08 Vermont: Guten tag
16:09 Vermont: Aloha?
16:10 Vermont: You do realize you are playing a person and not the computer, right?
16:11 cornucopoo-ah: i've never encountered a bot on isotropic....
16:11 cornucopoo-ah: have you?
16:11 Vermont: oh good, you are just rude then
16:11 Vermont: Good to know  :)
16:12 cornucopoo-ah: not talking is not rude
16:12 Vermont: Actually, it is. I can't imagine you completely ignoring someone that says hello to you.
16:13 Vermont: There are solitaire apps online that may be a better fit for you.

I eventually get the upperhand, and he starts playing very slowly...

Quote
16:21 cornucopoo-ah: Are you lagging or do you have some difficult decisions to make?
16:21 cornucopoo-ah: Or is there something else preoccupying you?
16:21 Vermont: slow playing is not rude
16:32 cornucopoo-ah: Langsames Spielen ist nicht unhöflich?
16:35 cornucopoo-ah: You were going so slow I had the chance to make you resign.
16:36 Vermont: Yup; doing other stuff.
16:37 cornucopoo-ah: I see the button right now.
16:37 cornucopoo-ah: You have ten seconds to press something
16:38 Vermont: lol. Why on earth would you want this to go longer? I'm just doing other work and delaying as long as I can.
16:38 Vermont: I figure we should both be rude.

We went on for a bit before he eventually disconnected.
I'm not sure if its just me, but its hard for me to tell who you're trying to say is rude...

Edit: Nvm... I thought you were Vermont :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Piemaster on March 29, 2012, 07:06:24 am
I'm not sure if this qualifies as lack of civility or a very elaborate joke or just completely batshit crazy.  Either way it is by far the most hilarious game I have ever played on Isotropic.  I've left the conversation in its entirity.  The details of the game are not important except for saying that it was a three-player Colony/Hunting Party/Scrying Pool game so it went on for a very long time.

11:22 Piemaster: Hi all
11:22 #OccupyCouncilRoom: I DEMAND MORE PIE.
11:22 * #OccupyCouncilRoom takes pie.
11:22 Piemaster: Is this a joke account? :)
11:22 #OccupyCouncilRoom: I will be destroying your pie shop.
11:22 Piemaster: Noes, not my pie shop!!!
11:23 #OccupyCouncilRoom: You will be exploited for the highest amount of short term pie possible.
11:23 #OccupyCouncilRoom: We do things like businesses here.
11:23 Piemaster: Just for the record is this an ironic account or do you actually believe that Occupy crap?
11:25 (#OccupyCouncilRoom has muted your chat messages.)
11:26 #OccupyCouncilRoom: Just goes to show you, elitists are inferior. Maybe if they learned to have fun I wouldn't feel the need to shit all over them by muting their messages.
11:27 Piemaster: LOL, you're funny :)
11:28 potluck: wow interesting observation... all that insight from a name... that is very insightful...
11:28 #OccupyCouncilRoom: Is he ranting now?
11:29 #OccupyCouncilRoom: Dear gawd. What an inferior being.
11:30 #OccupyCouncilRoom: Can't wait until we cleanse the Earth of that scaly business-degree slave-race.
11:30 Piemaster: This has to be the most surreal rant I have ever heard on CR
11:42 #OccupyCouncilRoom: I wonder if the pie-maker's going to figure out that being in control of something doesn't make you better.
11:43 #OccupyCouncilRoom: Those who cannot yield when needed break.
11:45 potluck: a rolling stone gathers no moss, you don't always get you want, never judge a book by its cover....
11:45 #OccupyCouncilRoom: I'm glad I muted him. I don't need to put up with the mie-maker's nonsense.
11:45 #OccupyCouncilRoom: I tried to joke around with him, but then - like all members of the slave-race - he lost his temper.
11:46 Piemaster: Now I'm mildly curious whether he actually has muted me or not...
11:46 #OccupyCouncilRoom: Incidentally, you can mute by using "/mute before" & you won't have to see his ranting either.
11:46 #OccupyCouncilRoom: Ugh... hand full of Victory points. Hate that.
11:47 potluck: I will most likey loose, but it has been fun playing with you to.... this would have to be one of the most interesting discussions I have been apart of..... thankyou for the entertainment
11:48 #OccupyCouncilRoom: All about kindness.
11:48 Piemaster: Nice playing with you potluck and, um... interesting playing with you Occupy
11:49 #OccupyCouncilRoom: If your day has been improved I am gladdened.
11:49 potluck: hahahaha..... this is why I love the internets......
11:49 #OccupyCouncilRoom: Is he still ranting?
11:49 #OccupyCouncilRoom: Gawd.
11:50 potluck: [wipes tears from eyes... while laughing]
11:50 #OccupyCouncilRoom: He must really know that the #Occupy movement is correct if a name on a web site makes him that crazy.
11:50 Piemaster: I am actually laughing IRL now
11:51 #OccupyCouncilRoom: Cognitive dissonance is a terrible thing. Totally convinces people that they couldn't possibly be wrong. That's what all people who support the 1% are... wrong.
11:52 #OccupyCouncilRoom: Sometimes just relaxing & letting them embarass themselves is the best approach.
11:53 potluck: welll... you can lead a horse to water... but you can not give it milk
11:53 Piemaster: I don't think I want to buy that last Colony, this game is just so amusing
11:53 #OccupyCouncilRoom: I would be lying if I said I didn't wish that pie-maker could rise above their heritage. Isn't the pie-maker's fault that they're from an obsolete bloodline.
11:54 potluck: hey.. why is that horse drinking milk? Its occupying the water hole... man I need to master the situation.. that will make me lucky
11:55 * #OccupyCouncilRoom utterly dominates the pie-maker.
11:55 Piemaster: Sorry guys I'm going to have to buy the last Colony.  It's been... well, something, probably good :)
11:56 * #OccupyCouncilRoom wins; moral victory.
11:56 potluck: well played you two...
11:56 #OccupyCouncilRoom has returned to the lobby.
11:56 potluck has returned to the lobby.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: barsooma on March 29, 2012, 07:27:45 am
A strange exchange:

Quote
16:04 Vermont: Howdy
16:05 Vermont: Greetings
16:07 Vermont: Bonjour
16:08 Vermont: Guten tag
16:09 Vermont: Aloha?
16:10 Vermont: You do realize you are playing a person and not the computer, right?
16:11 cornucopoo-ah: i've never encountered a bot on isotropic....
16:11 cornucopoo-ah: have you?
16:11 Vermont: oh good, you are just rude then
16:11 Vermont: Good to know  :)
16:12 cornucopoo-ah: not talking is not rude
16:12 Vermont: Actually, it is. I can't imagine you completely ignoring someone that says hello to you.
16:13 Vermont: There are solitaire apps online that may be a better fit for you.

I eventually get the upperhand, and he starts playing very slowly...

Quote
16:21 cornucopoo-ah: Are you lagging or do you have some difficult decisions to make?
16:21 cornucopoo-ah: Or is there something else preoccupying you?
16:21 Vermont: slow playing is not rude
16:32 cornucopoo-ah: Langsames Spielen ist nicht unhöflich?
16:35 cornucopoo-ah: You were going so slow I had the chance to make you resign.
16:36 Vermont: Yup; doing other stuff.
16:37 cornucopoo-ah: I see the button right now.
16:37 cornucopoo-ah: You have ten seconds to press something
16:38 Vermont: lol. Why on earth would you want this to go longer? I'm just doing other work and delaying as long as I can.
16:38 Vermont: I figure we should both be rude.

We went on for a bit before he eventually disconnected.

Yep, I've run into this guy before.
In my case he was saying his greetings about 30s apart, but on his turn and not doing any playing in the meantime.
I also didn't say anything except finally "Hurry up and lose ;)" (Obviously joking since hadn't even finished opening yet).
He then proceeded to slowplay to "Teach me a lesson about rudeness".
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on March 29, 2012, 09:22:45 am
11:23 Piemaster: Just for the record is this an ironic account or do you actually believe that Occupy crap?

Actually, I think this is uncivil. There are movements and beliefs that people hold dear. Dismissing those beliefs as crap is fine in some venues, but I don't really see it as being appropriate in a game. If I wandered into a game and, based on someone's username, said, "You believe in that pro-life/gay marriage rights/gun rights/health care reform crap," then I shouldn't be surprised if that other person goes off on me.

The guy had a humorous username. Maybe he believed in Occupy Wall Street. Maybe he was just taking the piss. In any case, you made it personal. Looks like no harm was done. The guy was clearly just dicking around having a grand ole time. The other player didn't take offense, but he could just as easily have been a supporter of OWS and been offended.

Regardless, it was a humorous exchange, but I can see how it could have turned ugly. That has the potential of turning ugly any time someone introduces a politically charged statement.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: theory on March 29, 2012, 09:36:38 am
I can't tell if "Occupy Council Room" is inherently ironic or unintentionally fitting, given that Council Room is essentially redistributive (knowledge-wise) but made by two IRL 1%ers.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Piemaster on March 29, 2012, 10:39:03 am
11:23 Piemaster: Just for the record is this an ironic account or do you actually believe that Occupy crap?

Actually, I think this is uncivil. There are movements and beliefs that people hold dear. Dismissing those beliefs as crap is fine in some venues, but I don't really see it as being appropriate in a game.
To be honest, I would probably agree with you if I had used that sentence as an opener.  But by then he had already made fun of my own username and started ramming his beliefs down my throat.  I didn't know if he was joking or not (I still don't really) so I felt my reply served to both find out if he was joking and, if he wasn't, make it clear that I didn't share his beliefs and didn't appreciate him trying to bludgeon me with them.  I think people's beliefs (of any kind) are fair game when they slap them on the table in this manner.

Nevertheless I'm not trying to play the victim here, I acknowledge I might have been more tactful, I just thought it was a humourous 'conversation' that's all. :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on March 29, 2012, 10:47:39 am
Fair enough. It was quite an exchange, and I have no idea if the guy was continuing to be facetious later on or really was taking offense. I suspect he was goofing around and saw a chink in your armor that he decided to exploit. Anyone who refers to a movement/belief as crap has revealed how he feels about it.

And come off it, theory. We all know that OccupyCouncilRoom is your alt. Don't hide it.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on March 29, 2012, 11:27:05 am
I can't tell if "Occupy Council Room" is inherently ironic or unintentionally fitting, given that Council Room is essentially redistributive (knowledge-wise) but made by two IRL 1%ers.

A newly-minted lawyer makes enough to get into the 1%?  That would be surprising.  (No idea what rrenaud does.  Just pointing out that a lot of people who "feel" like they're in the 1% really aren't... which points out how incredibly high the 1% is.)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Piemaster on March 29, 2012, 11:36:49 am
Depends what you mean by 1%.  On a global scale, I think you only need to earn $35,000 per year to be in the top 1%.  Ironically this likely includes large numbers of the Occupy movement :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: theory on March 29, 2012, 11:42:55 am
I can't tell if "Occupy Council Room" is inherently ironic or unintentionally fitting, given that Council Room is essentially redistributive (knowledge-wise) but made by two IRL 1%ers.

A newly-minted lawyer makes enough to get into the 1%?  That would be surprising.  (No idea what rrenaud does.  Just pointing out that a lot of people who "feel" like they're in the 1% really aren't... which points out how incredibly high the 1% is.)
I meant it more figuratively than literally.  After some research (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html) I think 5% nationally and 10% NYC is a closer estimate.

rrenaud is a software engineer, and rather overpaid as well (his words, not mine), though I think his salary is much more justifiable than mine.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Ozle on March 29, 2012, 11:48:13 am
11:23 Piemaster: Just for the record is this an ironic account or do you actually believe that Occupy crap?

Actually, I think this is uncivil. There are movements and beliefs that people hold dear. Dismissing those beliefs as crap is fine in some venues, but I don't really see it as being appropriate in a game. If I wandered into a game and, based on someone's username, said, "You believe in that pro-life/gay marriage rights/gun rights/health care reform crap," then I shouldn't be surprised if that other person goes off on me.

The guy had a humorous username. Maybe he believed in Occupy Wall Street. Maybe he was just taking the piss. In any case, you made it personal. Looks like no harm was done. The guy was clearly just dicking around having a grand ole time. The other player didn't take offense, but he could just as easily have been a supporter of OWS and been offended.

Regardless, it was a humorous exchange, but I can see how it could have turned ugly. That has the potential of turning ugly any time someone introduces a politically charged statement.

Surely the first person to bring up the political statement was the guy having the username in the first place! If I didn't want to discuss an emotionally charged subject with people then I wouldn't stick it in my username!


According to us census in 2005, 1.5% of us people earned 250k+
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Ozle on March 29, 2012, 11:50:58 am
Owning $500k puts you in richest 1% of the world according to an in citable source
Earning 50k+ puts you in that top warning bracket
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kuildeous on March 29, 2012, 01:49:10 pm
Surely the first person to bring up the political statement was the guy having the username in the first place! If I didn't want to discuss an emotionally charged subject with people then I wouldn't stick it in my username!

Invitation for a discussion? Probably. Invitation to attack a belief? I wouldn't think so. OCR is a pretty neutral satirizing name. You have no idea from reading it where that person stands on the topic. He took a national icon and added a Dominion twist to it. There are tons of Occupy satires out there. Even Star Wars fans have gotten into the game (http://occupycoruscant.org/). The name OCR makes no statement about whether the movement is good or bad. If, on the other hand, someone came in with the name of "AbortionIsMurder" or "IAmThe99%" or "LetGaysMarry" then a very specific statement is being made, and I would agree that the person with that name started it.

Of course, making up such a joke name means that it should come as no surprise if someone brings it up, and this guy clearly was ready for a response. But he didn't insult someone's ideology off the bat. If someone has the username of JesusChristSuperstar, that could mean any number of things, but I don't think any of those things is that he's stating an opinion about religion. If I say, "What's with your username? Are you one of those stupid Christians?" then I have started the polarizing argument.

My thoughts, of course. Unless a name clearly contains something incendiary or opinionated, I treat it as just a name. I have no idea what motivated him to come up with that name, but I won't discuss that name in a derogatory fashion unless I'm prepared for a fight (and really I just want to play the game).
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Ozle on March 29, 2012, 02:01:27 pm
Its a funny username, but you got to realise that it might put peoples backs up if they really don't like the Occupy movement (I would imagine there are quite a few) and be prepared for it, especially if you are going to go round being a little bit crazy!

Personally I thought it was quite funny (Although If I saw one more banner of someone saying 'We are the 99%' then i'd want to shove it down thier throat and point out some basic maths and life lessons to them)

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: large wooden badger on April 01, 2012, 05:10:48 pm
Hi.

I understand some of your concerns.  It does seem like more users were more polite and chatty 6+ months ago, but I don't think that everybody agrees on what is polite.  To me, "gl" or "good luck" sometimes implies that I'll need it.  I think that "gg" is just a way of politely being sportsmanlike and ending the conversation to go back to the queue or exit the site rather than talk about it.  If I've routed someone, I usually say "thanks for the game" instead of "gg" (which I often take the time to type out completely) but perhaps that seems snarky to some, so there will always be differences of opinions and some people's intentions misunderstood.

Automatch does play a role in one respect, in my opinion: Why isn't there an automatch option to have identical opening hands, as there is in the proposal tool?  Getting, say, a Margrave and a Crossroads vs. silver/silver is naturally going to frustrate the one with the 3/4 or 4/3 combo in those games.  It's an aspect of the game that could and should be better online than with the boxed cards (and I think that DXV should consider amending the basic rules for that in upcoming editions also).  If not identical starting hands, then how about randomizing which player goes first and the other player chooses his/her opening hands?

Regarding inappropriate usernames and icons, I could not agree more.  It shows no originality or class, so choose something better.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Piemaster on April 02, 2012, 01:55:52 am
To be honest, the fact that we are even debating whether or not it is polite to say 'gg' or sincere to say 'gl' indicates that the community on Isotropic is far better than 90% of other communities in similar games.  In a lot of games I consider myself lucky if I leave the table not having cancer wished on me and/or my family.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Graystripe77 on April 10, 2012, 12:36:49 pm
I wouldn't say this is really a decline in civility, but I just saw the funniest thing:

theory and domionionstrategy.com is poorly written begin a game.

That's pretty ironic.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: theory on April 10, 2012, 12:54:50 pm
Well, I was supposed to go to lunch, but just had to check out what he had to say.  Turns out it was just a misunderstanding (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2171.msg33992#msg33992) :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: jsh357 on April 10, 2012, 12:58:44 pm
Well, I was supposed to go to lunch, but just had to check out what he had to say.  Turns out it was just a misunderstanding (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2171.msg33992#msg33992) :)

I keep seeing that other blogger in the Great Hall.  He seems awfully new to the game to be giving out tips!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Taco Lobster on April 10, 2012, 04:57:55 pm
I can't tell if "Occupy Council Room" is inherently ironic or unintentionally fitting, given that Council Room is essentially redistributive (knowledge-wise) but made by two IRL 1%ers.

A newly-minted lawyer makes enough to get into the 1%?  That would be surprising.  (No idea what rrenaud does.  Just pointing out that a lot of people who "feel" like they're in the 1% really aren't... which points out how incredibly high the 1% is.)
I meant it more figuratively than literally.  After some research (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html) I think 5% nationally and 10% NYC is a closer estimate.

rrenaud is a software engineer, and rather overpaid as well (his words, not mine), though I think his salary is much more justifiable than mine.

As a first year attorney, you're not even an accredited investor, much less a member of the 1%.  ;) 

Edit: Hooray, based on that NY Times map, I can still claim my proletariat status! 
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Papa Luigi on April 12, 2012, 05:18:21 pm
I'd just like to apologize to the guy I resigned on last night without warning. Timinion, I knew we were just revving up a potentially good Minion game, but nature called, and then the wife called. I realize that it would have been more considerate of me to at least say "gotta go, sorry" before leaving, but I at least tried to spare you the frustration of waiting 2 minutes for me to drop out.

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt when they leave or time out, or even when they just play slowly. Luckily for me I haven't encountered anyone who was actively a jerk in chat or anything. Usually people aren't that talkative, but I never interpret the lack of a "gg" as rudeness.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: large wooden badger on April 15, 2012, 01:25:37 am
I just had another textbook example:

 0:18 large wooden badger: Good game
 0:18 Dr.AnulSniffer: fuck u
 0:18 Dr.AnulSniffer has returned to the lobby.

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Axxle on April 15, 2012, 03:42:56 am
I just had another textbook example:

 0:18 large wooden badger: Good game
 0:18 Dr.AnulSniffer: fuck u
 0:18 Dr.AnulSniffer has returned to the lobby.
22:11 Jack Rudd: gg
22:12 Dr.AnulSniffer: faggot fucker
22:12 Dr.AnulSniffer: let me win bitch
22:12 Dr.AnulSniffer has returned to the lobby.

If there was ever a reason to judge a book by its cover...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Davio on April 15, 2012, 08:19:31 am
This was one of the most courteous insults I've gotten:
Quote
14:16 taka0: bye airhead

And this was even after triple Torturing him for just the third time in a row.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: mDuo13 on April 16, 2012, 02:15:05 am
I try to offer "gl hf" and "gg" as traditional sportsmanship messages, but I don't always get them in. Not that I mind if someone omits them; sometimes you're in a hurry or preoccupied, after all. Or you might just be a jerk; but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

The only thing that bothers me is when people complain that I didn't greet them or chat. I play a lot at work; I don't always have time for a conversation in every game. If they're just whining about how I beat them with a "jerk" strategy (e.g. King's Court megaturns), I mostly just dismiss it.

On a particularly good game, or one in which my opponent crushed me handily (and not just due to my mistakes), I'll offer a "gg wp" (good game, well played) instead. Other times I might use the chat to gripe about exceptionally bad luck (like the world's worst Loan (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2201.0)) Sometimes this leads to a friendly conversation about the game, which is very satisfying. I also was quite impressed recently with the manners of a player who apologized after breaking out and running away with a Tournament game after a mirrored opening. That's going above and beyond common courtesy, and I was glad to tell him I bore him no hard feelings (runaway leader is the face of Tournament games, after all).

tl;dr I don't think there's been a decline in civility; feels like there's about the same mix as there has been for a while. A little bit of everything.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Lekkit on April 20, 2012, 07:30:56 am
Sooooo... Reviving one of the most liked threads on this forum. I was just playing a real nice guy who spammed the chat with empty messages and zzz's as soon as I wasn't clicking on my cards faster than my fingers would allow. Now this isn't something I'm really whining about, but it made me think. When is it ok to start to ask your opponent to play faster?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on April 20, 2012, 07:49:38 am
Never. If they're playing slow enough you can force resign them.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: bozzball on April 20, 2012, 08:14:03 am
I can't tell if "Occupy Council Room" is inherently ironic or unintentionally fitting, given that Council Room is essentially redistributive (knowledge-wise) but made by two IRL 1%ers.

I assumed it was because 80% of the cards were going to 50% of the people.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Deadlock39 on April 20, 2012, 10:25:40 am
I can't tell if "Occupy Council Room" is inherently ironic or unintentionally fitting, given that Council Room is essentially redistributive (knowledge-wise) but made by two IRL 1%ers.

I assumed it was because 80% of the cards were going to 50% of the people.

Well it looks like the 1%ers are at about level 36 and up (and theory and rrenaud just happen to be there).  It is an outrage that the top 1% of the Isotropic leader board is gaining 35% of the Provinces.  I fell that that they should give some of their victory points to those that are less fortunate.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Papa Luigi on April 20, 2012, 10:53:46 am
Sooooo... Reviving one of the most liked threads on this forum. I was just playing a real nice guy who spammed the chat with empty messages and zzz's as soon as I wasn't clicking on my cards faster than my fingers would allow. Now this isn't something I'm really whining about, but it made me think. When is it ok to start to ask your opponent to play faster?
I almost never do. Sometimes if a minute or so has passed while I'm waiting for him to react, I'll simply send a question mark or ask "you there?" Especially if it's a situation where he may not realize it's still his turn, like when I play an attack that he has to react to, or if he bought something but still has an extra buy left and doesn't realize he has to use the "end turn" button.

If he just stops playing right in the middle of his turn, or at the beginning, I don't say anything and figure he'll either come back to it or he won't.

I remember the very first game I played, I was moving kinda slowly and the opponent right away said "play faster please" but I had to tell him it was my first time playing online. Those first few games I would give a disclaimer at the beginning that I was slow because I was still learning and had to read all the cards. So I don't get snippy with slow players. Although it does really bug me when someone always takes a long time to play cards, or waits a long time to start his turn. Multiplayer games are the worst; I think people tend to tab out of the window and then don't notice it's their turn, so it takes a LOT longer.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: GendoIkari on April 20, 2012, 10:56:02 am
Sooooo... Reviving one of the most liked threads on this forum. I was just playing a real nice guy who spammed the chat with empty messages and zzz's as soon as I wasn't clicking on my cards faster than my fingers would allow. Now this isn't something I'm really whining about, but it made me think. When is it ok to start to ask your opponent to play faster?
I almost never do. Sometimes if a minute or so has passed while I'm waiting for him to react, I'll simply send a question mark or ask "you there?" Especially if it's a situation where he may not realize it's still his turn, like when I play an attack that he has to react to, or if he bought something but still has an extra buy left and doesn't realize he has to use the "end turn" button.

If he just stops playing right in the middle of his turn, or at the beginning, I don't say anything and figure he'll either come back to it or he won't.

I remember the very first game I played, I was moving kinda slowly and the opponent right away said "play faster please" but I had to tell him it was my first time playing online. Those first few games I would give a disclaimer at the beginning that I was slow because I was still learning and had to read all the cards. So I don't get snippy with slow players. Although it does really bug me when someone always takes a long time to play cards, or waits a long time to start his turn. Multiplayer games are the worst; I think people tend to tab out of the window and then don't notice it's their turn, so it takes a LOT longer.

Yeah, this. I will send a "still there?" or just  "?" sometimes if it's been a minute or so with no action (longer if it's the start of the game, because you need time to analyze the Kingdom), but I won't ever ask someone to play faster.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: jayro on April 22, 2012, 06:34:09 am
Just played this game (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/21/game-20111121-042219-e5ccec59.html), which I won and my opponent wanted to have a little chat with me.

13:22 Bubs: stupid novice
13:22 Lekkit: ?
13:22 Bubs has returned to the lobby.

Same experience, except that I lost:

12:27 Bubs: Gg novice
12:28 Bubs: Yawn
12:28 jayro: lol
12:28 Bubs has returned to the lobby.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: GendoIkari on April 22, 2012, 11:35:34 am
Just played this game (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/21/game-20111121-042219-e5ccec59.html), which I won and my opponent wanted to have a little chat with me.

13:22 Bubs: stupid novice
13:22 Lekkit: ?
13:22 Bubs has returned to the lobby.

Same experience, except that I lost:

12:27 Bubs: Gg novice
12:28 Bubs: Yawn
12:28 jayro: lol
12:28 Bubs has returned to the lobby.

Yeah, it appears Bubs says that to everyone.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on April 22, 2012, 01:56:45 pm
Sooooo... Reviving one of the most liked threads on this forum. I was just playing a real nice guy who spammed the chat with empty messages and zzz's as soon as I wasn't clicking on my cards faster than my fingers would allow. Now this isn't something I'm really whining about, but it made me think. When is it ok to start to ask your opponent to play faster?
I almost never do. Sometimes if a minute or so has passed while I'm waiting for him to react, I'll simply send a question mark or ask "you there?" Especially if it's a situation where he may not realize it's still his turn, like when I play an attack that he has to react to, or if he bought something but still has an extra buy left and doesn't realize he has to use the "end turn" button.

Personally, I try to pre-empt this sort of thing... when I know I'm taking a while to make a decision, I'll say "sorry about the wait, tough decision" or something to that effect.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Grujah on April 25, 2012, 05:12:51 pm
Quote
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 

 ;D
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Donald X. on April 25, 2012, 05:56:40 pm
Quote
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 
22:46 Vaccarino is Italian for Cow Fucker: 

 ;D
I'm Sicilian, not Italian, so you may want to think twice before perpetuating insults about my heritage. Capisce?

Also the etymology of Vaccarino does involve a cow, but I think the cow was just stroked and hummed to.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: dondon151 on April 25, 2012, 06:00:07 pm
Also the etymology of Vaccarino does involve a cow, but I think the cow was just stroked and hummed to.

So does that imply that Kobe beef is Italian / Sicilian in origin?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jfrisch on April 26, 2012, 03:44:35 pm
15:25 Jfrisch: good luck
15:26 ARTjoMS: yes
15:33 ARTjoMS: dam fucker played goons every time and no collide
15:36 Jfrisch: ?
15:37 ARTjoMS: saying u got lucky
15:38 Jfrisch: gg
15:38 ARTjoMS: dream on noob
15:38 Jfrisch: I bought more villages
15:38 Jfrisch: than you did
15:38 Jfrisch: and I
15:38 Jfrisch: DID
15:38 Jfrisch: have collisions
15:38 ARTjoMS: i bought more caravans than u did
15:38 Jfrisch: yes
15:38 Jfrisch: so you got bigger hands
15:38 ARTjoMS: i bouggth 3 ter,mionals before villagers
15:39 ARTjoMS: look game log moron
15:39 Jfrisch: okay
15:39 Jfrisch: I win
15:39 Jfrisch: therefore I'm a moron that makes sense
15:39 ARTjoMS: lol
15:39 ARTjoMS: tweak wards as u want
15:39 ARTjoMS: doesnt change truth
15:40 ARTjoMS: and u know what i meant

Proof that, yet again, being a competent dominion player doesn't mean you are a competent human being.
 (he was upset that he bought more caravans than me in a goons match and still lost which was, probably, a tactical mistake on my part, but he was slower in getting goons because of it). (Also, having more goons tends to increase the tendency to play them more so...)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on April 26, 2012, 03:50:40 pm
I'm Sicilian, not Italian, so you may want to think twice before perpetuating insults about my heritage. Capisce?

Also the etymology of Vaccarino does involve a cow, but I think the cow was just stroked and hummed to.

Remind me not to go up against you...


...when DEATH is on the line!
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: jsh357 on April 26, 2012, 03:50:40 pm
>> Level 43
>> noob
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: andwilk on April 27, 2012, 12:44:05 pm
I was just called an ass and was told I ruined the game by pursuing an IGG-rush strategy.  Oh, and we played in veto mode.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: def on April 27, 2012, 12:52:41 pm
...

If he'll act the way he did with me, prepare for an insulting private message soon, too. :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: michaeljb on April 27, 2012, 07:46:38 pm
...

I had a game (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120420-163154-e80f0fae.html) with him recently where I started 5/2 against his 4/3, and got some really good early draws to very quickly grab a couple Bazaars and a pile of Wharves. Even I was seriously surprised by my good luck...

17:30 ARTjoMS: OP Luck
17:31 michaeljb: not gonna deny that...
17:31 michaeljb: I got ridiculous draws kicking of Bazaar/Wharf madness
17:31 ARTjoMS: this game so much like poker
17:31 ARTjoMS: luck wins skill most of the tmie
17:31 ARTjoMS has returned to the lobby.

I was just really surprised that a level 40+ player would really think something like that...but that's not really uncivil. Implying that I played with no skill was though...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: michaeljb on April 27, 2012, 07:54:46 pm
I was just called an ass and was told I ruined the game by pursuing an IGG-rush strategy.  Oh, and we played in veto mode.

Reminds me of this game this game (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120410-210018-d836925c.html) (also in veto mode) -- I got an angry response that made me laugh: "f*** you mister saboteur"
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 27, 2012, 09:15:51 pm
...

So, I thought I'd posted this earlier, pretty sure I did actually. So maybe a mod struck it down. If so, feel free to do so again, but PM me so I know I'm not just going crazy. Thanks.

Don't worry about it. This is just the way he is, and has been, for quite a while. And don't tell him gg - he always thinks any game that he lost, he was either extremely unlucky, or occasionally it was a bad game because he played badly. But uh, yeah, he's the most this way guy I've seen on iso.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: CoheedandCambria on April 27, 2012, 11:10:07 pm
I used to play an RTS game at a high level (warcraft 3) and had a training partner that always had this mentality.. In a game with hardly any luck (pretty much only luck is miss % and crit % which doesn't play a big role), he ALWAYS complained he was unlucky at end of game and that was the only reason he lost. He was a pretty good friend of mine so I always just shook it off and tried to snap him out of the mentality but nothing ever worked. I ended up improving a lot more than he did and went on to bigger and better teams/partners.

I don't understand what makes people think that EVERY SINGLE GAME they lose is because of luck. Do they really think they're so perfect that they never makes a mistake? Not even once?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Fabian on April 27, 2012, 11:12:55 pm
There's a few (two comes to mind) strongish players like that (and numerous non-strong players of course). Don't think you can do much but roll your eyes and ignore them.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: jonts26 on April 27, 2012, 11:24:50 pm
I've said it before but the ability to differentiate luck from skill, or more generally what part of an outcome is a result of a person's decisions and which are not is something that is incredibly difficult for people but an extremely useful ability if you want to excel at anything really.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Fabian on April 27, 2012, 11:29:07 pm
..Which is (partly) why neither of these people are actually good (as far as I can tell anyway) ;)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: timchen on April 28, 2012, 12:07:28 am
Maybe he can admit that he is unlucky to have made a mistake?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ARTjoMS on April 28, 2012, 07:36:10 am
Some of you have no idea what are you talking about

just because you won and are reluctant or incapable to see what happened doesn't mean you have to boast around with your win. When i get that luck win - i don't try to tweak it as a skill win or ''gg'' - i am understanding.

But I guess you all like to be friendly kittens like WanderingWinder who resigns me (when i'm thinking) without warning or saying anything.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ARTjoMS on April 28, 2012, 07:40:55 am
...

If he'll act the way he did with me, prepare for an insulting private message soon, too. :)

You better keep quite friendly kitten. Keeps insulting me, but can't take a challenge or face truth.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: PerdHapley on April 28, 2012, 08:02:29 am
Some of you have no idea what are you talking about

just because you won and are reluctant or incapable to see what happened doesn't mean you have to boast around with your win. When i get that luck win - i don't try to tweak it as a skill win or ''gg'' - i am understanding.

But I guess you all like to be friendly kittens like WanderingWinder who resigns me (when i'm thinking) without warning or saying anything.

Man, I didn't want to involve myself here, but this is frustrating. I've only had one recent instance of you being memorably unpleasant within about a dozen games, and hey, that's not that bad. You're a great player, and if Isotropic had a mute button I would look forward to our matches. That instance was still pretty tame, and I was happy to give you the benefit of the doubt there, but this post... NO, no to all of this.

Deriding players for luck and/or calling them names is never, ever anything less than a total jerk move. Mention it if you want, sure, make a little joke and have a friendly back-and-forth for a minute about how crazy it is that your opponent hit some miraculous draw. Initiate a conversation and hey, maybe give a friendly lesson to your opponent (the only kind they'd actually pay attention to anyway) or learn something unexpected yourself. Or stay silent until you can find another rage outlet. Do anything else.

There is no "well, you can be a jerk if..." on this one. This is nothing less than common decency. Be a a human being about it. Whatever else it is to you, this is a game.

Also, "gg" is not a boast. It's the equivalent of a post-game handshake. Among other players, spiteful subtext is pretty uncommon.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ARTjoMS on April 28, 2012, 08:21:35 am
I'm not saying that i am not a jerk.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DStu on April 28, 2012, 08:37:45 am
You're a great player, and if Isotropic had a mute button I would look forward to our matches.

Quote from: iso faq
My opponent is being mean / rude / nasty / annoying in the chat window.
You can mute them, so you will no longer see what they say. In a two-player game, type "/mute" into the chat window to mute them (and "/unmute" to see their chats once again). In a game with more than 2 players, you specify which player you want to mute by their position in turn order relative to you: "/mute before" mutes the player who comes before you, and "/mute 2 after" mutes the player who comes 2 after you (ie, after the person who plays after you).

Muting is one-way: it only prevents you from seeing their chat messages. It does not stop them from seeing yours (though of course they can choose to mute you too), and it doesn't stop what any other players in the game see.

Muting only works in games, not in the lobby, and it's not preserved from game to game. (Though really, if you find someone so annoying that you don't want to listen to them any more, why would you want to play another game with them?)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: def on April 28, 2012, 08:49:42 am
Keeps insulting me

Where? Tell me, where? I haven't said anything. You had sent me a pm, calling me moron, which I ignored completely besides that little remark here, and continued to call me names in this thread here in the exact same post where YOU accused ME of insulting you. I don't just hold still and let you misrepresent the facts.
In fact, the only things I said remotely close to an insult where accusing you of a "loss of reality" and a "mental illness", which was discussed in the other closed thread (and this one is probably soon to follow). After all these other posts here, and that's actually quite sad, I don't think I was too far off with these remarks.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Eevee on April 28, 2012, 09:19:54 am
i personally just decline artomjis and marin, no point in playing with whiny guys when there are plenty of nice and positive guys around.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: RisingJaguar on April 28, 2012, 10:14:48 am
just because you won and are reluctant or incapable to see what happened doesn't mean you have to boast around with your win. When i get that luck win - i don't try to tweak it as a skill win or ''gg'' - i am understanding.
So if you get a luck win, do you yell at yourself how lucky you were?  It would be nice to see that in the iso chats. 
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ARTjoMS on April 28, 2012, 11:23:27 am
Keeps insulting me
I don't just hold still and let you misrepresent the facts.

What an idiot. It is you who got silly luck win and boasted around in forums, this is exactly type of player whom  i have absolutely disrespect  - gets luck win and acts like a hero.

Then you go for another ''hero'' move telling how bad-ass you were to ignore my challenge. Sorry, you are not a hero, but a friendly kitten with a big mouth.

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ARTjoMS on April 28, 2012, 11:26:15 am
Also, "gg" is not a boast. It's the equivalent of a post-game handshake. Among other players, spiteful subtext is pretty uncommon.

Oh really. Then why i have encountered that frequently opponents tend to ''gg'' games they have won, but quit without saying anything when they have lost?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: def on April 28, 2012, 11:35:58 am
Keeps insulting me
I don't just hold still and let you misrepresent the facts.
... idiot ... boasted around in forums ... friendly kitten with a big mouth ...

I don't care about any challenge you proposed since I won't play again with you. So that's not the topic. I didn't boast around in forums, you were the one to drag it here with your post in the other thread. I don't care about the games anymore, who won or lost, by luck or not.
The topic is, you keep insulting me without reason, while ignoring the prompt to show where I insulted you.
But keep doing that, I always enjoy it when someone reduces himself to absurdity.
If you want to argue on a solid base, the first thing you need to do is stop insulting other persons and comply with my request from my last post. I doubt you want to, though, and I even doubt you are able to.

PS: Can someone change the topic to "decline of civility on dominionstrategy.com"? Also, how many insults per person are allowed here without consequences?  ;)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: O on April 28, 2012, 11:56:54 am
Seriously guys?

I believe that http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1186.msg33194#msg33194 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1186.msg33194#msg33194) this thread was locked for a reason.

I'm not saying that people aren't rude sometimes (well, I've never found a game with Marin anything but enjoyable. He complains a bit after a loss but he was mentioning his own mistakes in the loss. Maybe some people misinterpret the language barrier?)

Publicly admonishing these people on F.DS does nothing to curb anyone's rude behavior; it most likely exacerbates it since they'll feel ganged up on.

People can figure out for themselves if they don't wish to play a certain opponent or wish to use the mute option. We didn't need a public blacklist thread for that, and we don't need a general-complaining-thread-turned-public-blacklist-thread for it.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on April 28, 2012, 12:22:59 pm
What O said.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Morgrim7 on April 28, 2012, 12:42:10 pm
What Kirian said.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: chwhite on April 28, 2012, 02:05:45 pm
Also, "gg" is not a boast. It's the equivalent of a post-game handshake. Among other players, spiteful subtext is pretty uncommon.

Oh really. Then why i have encountered that frequently opponents tend to ''gg'' games they have won, but quit without saying anything when they have lost?

In my experience, most people say "gg" win or lose- I know I do.  (Unless of course my opponent leaves before I get a chance, which happens sometimes since my internet connection is often laggy.)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: qmech on April 29, 2012, 08:11:45 am
I think I'm less likely to say "gg" after a win, as some people do interpret it as gloating.  If in doubt, I follow my opponent's lead.

For anyone who fully accepts that Dominion is a game played inside a probability space, fluke losses against bad strategies shouldn't rankle, as they're offset by proportionately many easier wins.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: paddyodoors on April 29, 2012, 10:02:30 am
What Morgrim7 said.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: jsh357 on April 29, 2012, 10:12:59 am
Personally, I think most internet greetings/ggs and such are empty and meaningless so I wouldn't normally bother, but enough people probably get offended by not saying gg that I just say it anyway nowadays, win or lose, unless for whatever reason I'm in a big hurry and have to go.  gl hf kinda rubs me the wrong way, though, and I've never understood it.  To me it's hard to wish my opponent luck when the objective of a game is partially to win it so it never would be coming from an honest place.  I settle on just saying 'hi,' which seems inoffensive enough.

{Socially awkward Penguin.png}
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ycz6 on April 29, 2012, 01:25:34 pm
These discussions always remind me of this (http://www.mndaily.com/1997/01/17/texas-town-says-goodbye-hello).
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on April 29, 2012, 02:25:57 pm
These discussions always remind me of this (http://www.mndaily.com/1997/01/17/texas-town-says-goodbye-hello).

That article is the stupidest thing I've read today, and I've spent time on the Fark Politics tab today.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Axxle on April 29, 2012, 03:21:03 pm
I agree with paddyodoors, Morgrim7, Kirian, and O.

@ycz6: that made me die a little inside...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: michaeljb on April 29, 2012, 03:21:32 pm
So I didn't see the original language used, but +1 to rrenaud for replacing whatever it was with "friendly kittens".
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ARTjoMS on April 29, 2012, 04:37:54 pm
23:34 RomaNorgy: i can't believe i haven't gotten a single quary+buy
23:34 ARTjoMS: worse bad beats have happened to me
23:34 RomaNorgy: fuck you
23:35 RomaNorgy: you've gotten perfect shuffles all game and all you can say is that you've had worse
23:36 RomaNorgy: and you're taking forever, too
23:36 ARTjoMS: not my fault you let me buy hunting parties
23:36 RomaNorgy: should have told me to veto them
23:36 RomaNorgy: not my fault i'm still fairly new to this game
23:37 RomaNorgy: at least I don't have to live with myself being an asshole
23:42 RomaNorgy: enjoy your luck
23:42 RomaNorgy has returned to the lobby.

even i very rarely use THAT word.

Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Deadlock39 on April 29, 2012, 04:43:33 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-justification
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: michaeljb on April 29, 2012, 04:48:08 pm
23:36 RomaNorgy: not my fault i'm still fairly new to this game

Wait, what?

Code: [Select]
Level 43
50.557 ± 6.745 19 2712 RomaNorgy ▲ 1

Anyway...this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6luqgyze4Q&t=0m15s).
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Fabian on April 29, 2012, 04:51:29 pm
Think they were probably just trying to out-troll each other michael.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: michaeljb on April 29, 2012, 04:54:09 pm
I guess so. I need to stop looking at this thread.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: O on April 29, 2012, 04:56:06 pm
I'd like to repeat my last post, and add a formal request for a lock...
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Morgrim7 on April 29, 2012, 05:00:26 pm
I'd like to repeat my last post, and add a formal request for a lock...
I agree. Theory? RR?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ftl on April 29, 2012, 05:06:57 pm
even i very rarely use THAT word.

And yet overall, in the quotes from you that people post here, you sound very similar in tone and in content to that person you're criticizing. Maybe you don't care, but that  IS how you come across.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Kirian on April 29, 2012, 05:25:04 pm
I'd like to repeat my last post, and add a formal request for a lock...
I agree. Theory? RR?

Personally, I'd ask fr a split, and lock of the new thread.  I think the main topic is worthy of being continued.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Ozle on April 29, 2012, 05:45:06 pm
So I didn't see the original language used, but +1 to rrenaud for replacing whatever it was with "friendly kittens".

He didn't change the words, just corrected the spelling of Friendly, turns out rrenaud is a grammar nazi....
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ARTjoMS on April 29, 2012, 05:50:56 pm
even i very rarely use THAT word.

And yet overall, in the quotes from you that people post here, you sound very similar in tone and in content to that person you're criticizing. Maybe you don't care, but that  IS how you come across.

Yes. Yes. Yes. But there is a difference.

I don't care about language that he used, but that he was wrong... i outplayed him so badly (2nd game in a row) and it had nothing to do with luck.

When i am sounding like this i usually (not always - sometimes i do just because something else has got me mad) am sure that i took 50%+ line. And the problem starts when my dumb opponent doesn't realize that he got lucky and fights back.

Here are 2 games i played yesterday vs. -Stef- who yesterday got +3 levels 18-4-1 and is now level 45. 18-4! How does he do it?

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120428-084327-7dd10ae4.html
Really boring deck: it is basically BM+tribute(s). He opens chancellor silver vs. my silver silver - he basically hit jackpot and it was no chancer for me.  (I think he got turn 3 gold+reshuffle and then his tribute went for +4 some times when i got only +2 or sth.. doesn't really matter). In the end, although, he realizes that there was huge luck involved he remarks that his strategy was better. That is what gets me mad and people with whom i get rude.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120428-091351-f5ac36d6.html

He opens steward -steward!!! i open steward-silver. I trash 2 estates in 3rd turn and he remarks that i can't complain about luck this time.

Guess what were his first 9 moves?

   --- -Stef-'s turn 3 ---
   -Stef- plays a Steward.
   ... trashing an Estate and a Copper.
   -Stef- plays 2 Coppers.
   -Stef- buys a Pawn.

   --- -Stef-'s turn 4 ---
   -Stef- plays a Steward.
   ... trashing 2 Estates.
   -Stef- plays 2 Coppers.
   -Stef- buys a Pawn.
   (-Stef- reshuffles.)
 
 --- -Stef-'s turn 5 ---
   -Stef- plays a Steward.
   ... getting +$2.
   -Stef- plays 4 Coppers.
   -Stef- buys a Gold.

   --- -Stef-'s turn 6 ---
   -Stef- plays a Pawn.
   ... (-Stef- reshuffles.)
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
   -Stef- plays a Pawn.
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
   -Stef- plays a Steward.
   ... trashing 2 Coppers.

   --- -Stef-'s turn 7 ---
-Stef- plays a Steward.
   ... trashing 2 Coppers.
   -Stef- plays a Gold and a Copper.
   -Stef- buys a Walled Village.

   --- -Stef-'s turn 8 ---
   -Stef- plays a Pawn.
   ... getting +1 action and +$1.
   -Stef- plays a Pawn.
   ... getting +1 action and +$1.
   -Stef- plays a Steward.
   ... getting +$2.
   -Stef- buys a Walled Village.

   --- -Stef-'s turn 9 ---
   -Stef- plays a Walled Village.
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +2 actions.
   -Stef- plays a Steward.
   ... drawing 2 cards.
   -Stef- plays a Walled Village.
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +2 actions.
   -Stef- plays a Pawn.
   ... (-Stef- reshuffles.)
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
   -Stef- plays a Pawn.
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
   -Stef- plays a Steward.
   ... getting +$2.
   -Stef- plays a Gold and 2 Coppers.
   -Stef- buys a Goons.

If he did fight back then I'm sure many of you do it also thinking that you have outplayed me. BTW i think his pawn buys were a mistake not even mentioning his steward-steward.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 29, 2012, 05:57:25 pm
Can we pleeeeeeeeeeeease get a downvote button?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Morgrim7 on April 29, 2012, 05:59:09 pm
Can we pleeeeeeeeeeeease get a downvote button?
+1. That would be useful.  :)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: O on April 29, 2012, 06:00:14 pm
Can we pleeeeeeeeeeeease get a downvote button?
+1. That would be useful.  :)

Minus one.
>New player comes in and posts how BM is the only viable option
>gets 20 downvotes
>leaves forums
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 29, 2012, 06:02:07 pm
Can we pleeeeeeeeeeeease get a downvote button?
+1. That would be useful.  :)

Minus one.
>New player comes in and posts how BM is the only viable option
>gets 20 downvotes
>leaves forums
I have no reason to believe that this will happen. Why do you think people will downvote that?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: O on April 29, 2012, 06:07:29 pm
Can we pleeeeeeeeeeeease get a downvote button?
+1. That would be useful.  :)

Minus one.
>New player comes in and posts how BM is the only viable option
>gets 20 downvotes
>leaves forums
I have no reason to believe that this will happen. Why do you think people will downvote that?

Because there's a large collective sigh whenever the post is made, followed by 40 posts of discussion that had been made before in the previous thread  ;D
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ftl on April 29, 2012, 06:11:11 pm
Yes. Yes. Yes. But there is a difference.

I don't care about language that he used, but that he was wrong... i outplayed him so badly (2nd game in a row) and it had nothing to do with luck.

When i am sounding like this i usually (not always - sometimes i do just because something else has got me mad) am sure that i took 50%+ line. And the problem starts when my dumb opponent doesn't realize that he got lucky and fights back.

And this isn't about who is better or who played right or wrong. It's irrelevant. Civility doesn't only matter when you both agree on strategy.

Everyone can be gracious when they're winning and the game goes exactly as they expect. There' nothing unusual about that. It's precisely when you DON'T agree, when you think your opponent is WRONG and STUPID that you have to make sure to still be courteous and polite. (ESPECIALLY since nobody's perfect and everyone occasionally loses games when they're SURE they're right, and they're actually not.)
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ARTjoMS on April 29, 2012, 06:14:26 pm
Can we pleeeeeeeeeeeease get a downvote button?

Yesterday we played 3 games.
1st game you played well, but game decided in jesters. maybe i could have played better somewhere. wp anyway.

Going green was a huge mistake in wharf-city game for you yesterday.  Too bad i didn't finish game when i had to. Scared that you are already holding a mouse to be ready to press resign button again as fast as it is possible. Made me nervous.

3rd game. You got outplayed.

Downvote me pleeeeeaase if you want. I don't give a **** about you. For me you are not in top 10 players.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Jfrisch on April 29, 2012, 06:24:11 pm
Fact: In dominion, there is quite a lot of luck. Big money beats Big money Smithy a very signifigant portion of the time.
Fact: Given that we all are playing a statistically very large set of games luck does not, in fact, have a particularly large effect on our rankings, over a set of 100 games a (significantly) better player will nearly certainly win.

Given that people here are playing hundreds/thousands of games, luck is not a particularly strong factor in your overall win rate/how you do against people in general/etc. Those games you lost due to luck were essentially equalled by the games you won due to luck. It's ridiculous to believe that, over the course of thousands of games, you have been significantly harmed by luck. Winning/losing a particular game means very little when it comes to your overall skill, if you want to convince people that you are the best, get high on the leaderboard. Your skill level (not exactly ranking, ranking has a reasonable bias towards those who play more often) will prove that you are the better player. If you aren't rising to the top, well, it's probably because the players above you are in fact better players.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: WanderingWinder on April 29, 2012, 06:26:41 pm
Can we pleeeeeeeeeeeease get a downvote button?

Yesterday we played 3 games.
1st game you played well, but game decided in jesters. maybe i could have played better somewhere. wp anyway.

Going green was a huge mistake in wharf-city game for you yesterday.  Too bad i didn't finish game when i had to. Scared that you are already holding a mouse to be ready to press resign button again as fast as it is possible. Made me nervous.

3rd game. You got outplayed.

Downvote me pleeeeeaase if you want. I don't give a **** about you. For me you are not in top 10 players.
[strikethrough]Man, [/strikethrough]I'm not doing anything to you. I could. I really really could. My comment was not directed at you in particular, but mildly at this thread and more at the forums in general - not that I want to slam people, bu I do think it would be useful to have this capability. Yes, it was posted after yours, but there are over 600 posts in this thread, I could have been set off by any of them, or the whole compilation. Just because I don't want to single someone out as the source by quoting them, doesn't meant hat my comment is directed at the previous one.
Now, if you want me to go after you, then by all means, let me know, and I can do that for you. If not, then please show me the same courtesy. Thanks.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: Graystripe77 on April 29, 2012, 06:46:27 pm
I really, really, very much so wish I could ban ARTjoMS. But then I'd feel just as rude as him....... So, I'm just gonna say this. If you believe that you lost a game due to luck and don't think it was a good game, don't say so, and just leave. I've done it, and it doesn't seem to be disrespectful as far as I can tell. But seriously, resorting to this name-calling and belittling crap isn't gonna do anything.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=346300645436014&set=a.268489309883815.67691.268330443233035&type=1
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: ARTjoMS on April 30, 2012, 02:52:52 am
Can we pleeeeeeeeeeeease get a downvote button?
My comment was not directed at you in particular, but mildly at this thread and more at the forums in general - not that I want to slam people, bu I do think it would be useful to have this capability. Yes, it was posted after yours, but there are over 600 posts in this thread, I could have been set off by any of them, or the whole compilation. Just because I don't want to single someone out as the source by quoting them, doesn't meant hat my comment is directed at the previous one.
Coward.
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: DStu on April 30, 2012, 02:58:08 am
Can we pleeeeeeeeeeeease get a downvote button?

or, maybe, we could just not feed the troll(s)?
Title: Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
Post by: theory on April 30, 2012, 08:14:12 am
I was out of town this weekend.

Thread locked.  Perhaps eventually something like this thread will return, but this is enough for now.

By the way, I have no inclination to introduce the down-vote button.  Every time someone asks for it seems to be a situation that would only get worse if it were introduced.