Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: WheresMyElephant on December 06, 2012, 05:57:05 pm
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Of course I'm not the first to notice, there is a lot of math in Dominion. There's the obvious stuff like the average card value in your deck and probabilities and when to buy a Duke, on down to the little stuff like simply counting VP or the amount of coin in the deck. But it goes beyond this; much of the theoretical discussion amounts to full-fledged proofs of theorems (albeit usually rather informal) and the creativity that goes into them can be very impressive. And it's very obvious from many posters' diction and argument style that they have some training.
So I'm wondering, how many of the strong players here have a significant background in math or a related field (especially involving some proofs)? Do you think this background (or lack thereof) significantly affects your skill level?
If Donald X. is reading this thread I'd be very interested to hear his thoughts. I seem to remember hearing or inferring that he has some math background; if correct was this very influential in the design of Dominion and your other games?
For my part I have BS degrees in math and physics, but my Iso rating topped out somewhere around 27 (and is much lower now, but I'm less active), so I'm probably not the most interesting person to ask. I do feel like it's helpful, but it's easy to get carried away debating theory and forget that sometimes the clear-cut problems with cool pithy solutions are small potatoes.
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Math and Computer Science major here; level 40 when I stopped playing registered games. Hard to say how that affects my playing.... I think it tends to be logic skills more than math skills that help me be good (though most math people should have good logic skills).
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I have my doctorate, which explains why I prefer talking about Dominion to actually playing it. ;D
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I'm an IT engineer, so I'm not such a Math nerd as some of you, but close enough.
And I use Math to analyze Dominion, e.g. the probablity of some openings to buy Familiar turn 3/4.
BTW, reminder to myself: This could be a nice addition to the Familiar wiki page: Best openings for getting a Familiar turn 3/4.
Also, you might want to look in this thread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=176.0).
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former English major with some cs here. I've been level 43. I would say that most of the opponents I fear on iso seem very mathematically minded. that or they are former mtg tournament players.
me? I had to drop math at calc 2. went completely over my head.
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Math and Computer Science major here; level 40 when I stopped playing registered games. Hard to say how that affects my playing.... I think it tends to be logic skills more than math skills that help me be good (though most math people should have good logic skills).
Yeah I agree, I guess logic is mostly what I had in mind. I don't think there's actually a ton of reliance on standard mathematical tools beyond basic numeracy and rudimentary probability (probably less than poker for instance). Of course as a game Dominion literally is a branch of math but the more I think about it, maybe that's neither here nor there.
I have my doctorate, which explains why I prefer talking about Dominion to actually playing it. ;D
Heh, I'm not the only one then! Ever get that feeling you need to play more games just so you won't embarrass yourself in the theoretical discussions?
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former English major with some cs here. I've been level 43. I would say that most of the opponents I fear on iso seem very mathematically minded. that or they are former mtg tournament players.
me? I had to drop math at calc 2. went completely over my head.
Me, I'm a writer. I used to play MTG, though not on the Pro Tour or anything. I never advanced beyond Algebra in Math. But, I am very good at logic.
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Math & Comp Sci major, still in college.
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The group I play Dominion with IRL is a pretty even split between physicists, mathematician, programmers, engineers, and (hum-major) video game designers. It helps that many of us went to college together.
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I have a mathematics degree, and I am a high school math teacher.
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I study political theory, and the last math class I took was Algebra II (which I was terrible at) in 1997.
So, exception to the rule...?
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Math was one of my favorite topics in high school.
I studied computer science at university level for a couple of years, but didn't finish as I found it way too theoretical. I didn't like that I was too busy solving equations instead of doing actual programming, also I was unfocused and way too young/immature to complete anything.
Funnily enough, my current job is software programmer so I still ended up doing what I was "destined" to do, I just took another route. :)
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So I'm wondering, how many of the strong players here have a significant background in math or a related field (especially involving some proofs)? Do you think this background (or lack thereof) significantly affects your skill level?
If Donald X. is reading this thread I'd be very interested to hear his thoughts. I seem to remember hearing or inferring that he has some math background; if correct was this very influential in the design of Dominion and your other games?
I majored in math but dropped out. For many years I was a computer programmer.
Decisions in games tend to involve a mix of math, psychology, and memory. Dominion is not heavy on psychology although it has some; it has plenty of math and memory, although the memory is more "what happened in the past when I went Workshop / Gardens vs. Witch" and "try not to forget one of the cards on the table is there" rather than "what's left in my deck."
Dominion is a particular premise carried to extremes. It was influenced a lot by the many games I made in the previous dozen years. It doesn't really have "math" in its premise though, and the card-balancing was mostly done via playtesting, although I also wrote a few computer programs. There are games I've made that specifically were inspired by game theory or math puzzles, but Dominion isn't one of those.
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I think that "mathy" people are generally more attracted to board games than others.
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former English major with some cs here. I've been level 43. I would say that most of the opponents I fear on iso seem very mathematically minded. that or they are former mtg tournament players.
me? I had to drop math at calc 2. went completely over my head.
I'm in calc 2 now!... it's fun!
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Yeah, I was going to echo what Watno said in that a straw poll might be misleading unless compared to other board games because I think in general mathy and techy people are drawn to board games slightly more than average. That might only apply to certain types of games, but if so I think those types of games are in the majority, and the others (perhaps discussion-based games) are in the minority, which is what can lead to a certain characterisation of people who like board games.
However, while many people are not naturally drawn to these things and don't seek them out, I find very few who don't enjoy them or want to play more once introduced, regardless of 'mathiness'.
Oh yeah: Musician & Programmer here. Pretty mathsy is me.
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Just hit lvl 40 (happy dance). I am getting my PhD in physics. Probability is useful, but for me Dominion is all about foreseeing contingencies: how cards will interact, how to respond to attacks, how to adapt your plan when you don't get the buys you want early, and so forth. That doesn't take math, but it does involve analytical thinking.
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Yeah, I was going to echo what Watno said in that a straw poll might be misleading...
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Oh yeah: Musician & Programmer here. Pretty mathsy is me.
you led off your statement with an explanation of the potential sampling bias in that sort of poll, not sure that end clarification was necessary :).
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Well, I don't play enough on isotropic (I try to avoid rankings and letting my hobbies become unhealthy timesucks). But I am a military analyst and forecaster. My degrees are in quantum mechanics, biophysics, intelligence studies, and I had a minor in military history; I also had some training in sigint and crypto. All that to say I used to know a lot of math and now outsource most of that to my work computer =)
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you led off your statement with an explanation of the potential sampling bias in that sort of poll, not sure that end clarification was necessary
Ha, yeah, I guess, but I didn't want to be too much of a poo-pooer!