Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: Tejayes on September 25, 2012, 12:36:55 pm
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For the first "Card That Name" exercise, we'll be using a very popular fan card name that has yet to be included in the official expansions.
What do you think of when you think "Assassin card"? I don't have a card idea myself (not yet, anyway), but I do have some general thoughts:- It would almost certainly be an Attack card.
- It would probably involve trashing in some way, likely trashing Actions.
- Since such an attack would be very strong, there would have to be some way to keep it balanced (high cost, no additional abilities, limited use, some sort of penalty, etc.).
Now it's your turn. How do you envision a card named Assassin? Do you agree with my thoughts or the ideas of others? If so, why? If not, why not?
Have fun!
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I actually played with a card for a while under that name. I can't take credit for it, as I basically took the idea from WanderingWinder's fan expansion and tweaked it to my taste.
Assassin
$5 - Action/Attack
+2 Cards
Each other player reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose. Each player that discards a card this way draws a card.
The attack can be brutal, but occasionally beneficial, in cases where the next card is better than any of the cards in hand. Ultimately, though, I didn't find it very fun. The "draw a card" compensation wasn't enough to keep this from being a frustrating attack to weather. That doesn't mean it isn't any good; Saboteur is too frustrating for me too.
Anyway, the behavior matches the theme pretty well. The assassin puts his sights on his mark and blows it away.
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I actually played with a card for a while under that name. I can't take credit for it, as I basically took the idea from WanderingWinder's fan expansion and tweaked it to my taste.
Assassin
$5 - Action/Attack
+2 Cards
Each other player reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose. Each player that discards a card this way draws a card.
The attack can be brutal, but occasionally beneficial, in cases where the next card is better than any of the cards in hand. Ultimately, though, I didn't find it very fun. The "draw a card" compensation wasn't enough to keep this from being a frustrating attack to weather. That doesn't mean it isn't any good; Saboteur is too frustrating for me too.
Anyway, the behavior matches the theme pretty well. The assassin puts his sights on his mark and blows it away.
Another issue with this card, although it wasn't one at the time, is the presence of Pillage. Yes, that card also gives you two Spoils, but not only is it a one-shot, it doesn't even work on Minion'd or Militia'd players (or Vault'd or Horse Traders'd...). The "draw a card" drawback and lack of Spoiling is not enough to make up for the +2 Cards, the fact that this works on players with reduced hands, and the lack of self-trashing.
Perhaps if the targeted discard was weakened further, like so...
Assassin
$5 - Action/Attack
+2 Cards
Each other player sets aside a card from his hand, then reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose. Each player that discards a card this way draws a card, then returns the set aside card to his hand.
OR
Assassin
$5 - Action/Attack
+2 Cards
Each other player reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose, then may discard a card of his choice. Each player draws a card for each card he discarded this way.
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Another issue with this card, although it wasn't one at the time, is the presence of Pillage. Yes, that card also gives you two Spoils, but not only is it a one-shot, it doesn't even work on Minion'd or Militia'd players (or Vault'd or Horse Traders'd...). The "draw a card" drawback and lack of Spoiling is not enough to make up for the +2 Cards, the fact that this works on players with reduced hands, and the lack of self-trashing.
I dunno if Assassin and Pillage are as comparable as it seems they should be. Kind of like how Rats isn't a deck-thinner, Assassin isn't really a hand-size-reducer. Assassin merely swaps out your best card in hand for an average card from your deck. It hurts, can hurt as badly as Pillage can, but the average case is not nearly as bad as Pillage. If you think about it, it's kind of like a Spy attack that takes effect one turn earlier and hits (a lot) more often.
But saying that makes me recall that Donald said he tried out an Oracle-like attack that allowed the player pick one of the two to discard, rather than requiring that both or neither be discarded. That attack was unacceptably strong, for some reason. Well, this is roughly that, but more so. So small wonder, I guess, that the attack doesn't really work.
Perhaps if the targeted discard was weakened further, like so...
Assassin
$5 - Action/Attack
+2 Cards
Each other player sets aside a card from his hand, then reveals his hand and discards a card that you choose. Each player that discards a card this way draws a card, then returns the set aside card to his hand.
This is close to a variation that I did decide to keep in my regular rotation of fan cards:
Warrior
$5 - Action/Attack
+$2
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand chooses a card from his hand and reveals the others. Choose one of the revealed cards for him to discard.
This attack doesn't stack, but it doesn't offer any replacement for the lost second-best card. It's a strong attack, better than Militia (hence the higher price), but not as agonizing as Assassin somehow. I wonder if the problem with Assassin wasn't so much the strength of the attack on average but that the variance was so huge. Assassin did frequently help an opponent, and then at other times it just completely shut them down. It had the kind of variance that "Trash the top card of your deck" has.
Anyway, Warrior (which actually came first) plays better, and even though it's not a pleasant attack to weather, it feels okay. Originally I had "4 or more cards" as the limit, but the possibility of losing your second-best AND third-best cards was too much.
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Thematically, an Assassin is not a random killer, but a skilled killer given the job of eliminating a single target quietly and untraceably, while limiting the collateral damage.
Of course, a Dominion card that trashes a specific card in the opponent's deck would be very difficult to balance.
But what about discarding? Maybe an after-the-fact envoy/weak targeted militia?
Assassin
$4 Action - Attack
+$2
Name a card. Each opponent with 5 or more cards in hand discards that card, or reveals a hand with no copies of that card.
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Assassin
5
Action - Attack
+4 Cards. Discard 2 cards or 1 copper.
Each other player with 4 or more cards in their hand reveals a number of cards from their hand equal to the number of +Actions you have remaining. Each other player discards one revealed card you choose.
There is an ongoing discussion about my Assassin card (posted the day before this thread) here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4663.0
There are problems with this card being too good with King's Court.
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Assassins need to be paid, and they rarely work for the same employer twice (harder to be traced that way). And despite all that, this probably STILL isn't balanced.
Assassin
$5 - Action - Attack
Trash this card and trash a Treasure costing at least $3. If you do, name a card. Each opponent trashes one copy of the named card, or reveals a hand without the named card.
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Can someone come up with a card that puts the sass in assassin?
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I've had a mechanic I've thought about before that might be suitable for this.
Assassin
$5 - Action-Duration
+1 card
+1 action
At the start of your next turn: +1 card.
While this card is in play, other players only draw 4 cards in their Clean-up phase.
It's less of a targeted attack and more of a thievery type card. On the other hand, its unblockable and the damage is only 'discovered' later. Here's one closer to what you guys have:
Assassin
$5 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
Each other player reveals the top four cards of their deck, one at a time. They discard one of your choice, and put the other revealed cards back on top in their original order.
[Edit: attempt to fix clunky wording]
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Modification to my other idea:
Assassin
5
Action - Attack
+4 Cards. Discard 2 cards or 1 copper.
At the end of your Action phase, each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals a number of cards equal to the number of Assassin cards you have in play. Each player discards one revealed card of your choice
[Clarification: You have to reveal a Moat when each Assassin card is played or you are still affected with the attack]
Would this work, rules wise? My intention is that even if the opponents have 6 or more cards in their hand, there is one discard overall.
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Modification to my other idea:
Assassin
5
Action - Attack
+4 Cards. Discard 2 cards or 1 copper.
At the end of your Action phase, each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals a number of cards equal to the number of Assassin cards you have in play. Each player discards one revealed card of your choice
[Clarification: You have to reveal a Moat when each Assassin card is played or you are still affected with the attack]
Would this work, rules wise? My intention is that even if the opponents have 6 or more cards in their hand, there is one discard overall.
I like it except for the reaction timing. It's weird that they have to reveal a Moat with each play, and that you have to remember that they played a Moat. And what happens if they reveal a Moat for one but not a second (can come up naturally if you have an engine using Assassin and Governor or CR)? By your clarification, I expect that they'd have to reveal just one card (for the Assassin that was not blocked). That's something else that is weird to remember.
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Modification to my other idea:
Assassin
5
Action - Attack
+4 Cards. Discard 2 cards or 1 copper.
At the end of your Action phase, each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals a number of cards equal to the number of Assassin cards you have in play. Each player discards one revealed card of your choice
[Clarification: You have to reveal a Moat when each Assassin card is played or you are still affected with the attack]
Would this work, rules wise? My intention is that even if the opponents have 6 or more cards in their hand, there is one discard overall.
I like it except for the reaction timing. It's weird that they have to reveal a Moat with each play, and that you have to remember that they played a Moat. And what happens if they reveal a Moat for one but not a second (can come up naturally if you have an engine using Assassin and Governor or CR)? By your clarification, I expect that they'd have to reveal just one card (for the Assassin that was not blocked). That's something else that is weird to remember.
If someone wants to jump in with a workable solution, I'd like to know. I don't particularly care how the Moat interaction works out, I just would like it to be consistent and clear. I don't think an Assassin being counted as being in play can be tracked by each Moat. If one Moat reveal stopped all Assassins, that would be fine, too.
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Assassin
$5 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
Each other player reveals the top four cards of their deck, one at a time. They discard one of your choice, and put the other revealed cards back on top in their original order.
[Edit: attempt to fix clunky wording]
Compare this to Rabble:
Pros: More cards revealed, Coppers and Ruins not automatically discarded, no chance to reorder (though Rabble's reordering ability is only marginally useful).
Cons: Fewer cards drawn, can only discard one useful card at a time.
In the end, I just don't think this attempt is strong enough compared to Rabble for a $5 cost. Would it work at $4?
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I envision the Assassin to be stealthy. It'd be like you won't know what's coming and then you're dead. I guess.
The problem with a real-life assassin (or a video game one?) for me is that it's really specific and you won't get to kill all objectives at the same time.
With that in mind, I'm thinking of a place token on supply pile thing where if a player plays a card from that pile, they get something bad as a result. Like a curse (an Embargo?) or trash on use. On this version, it's not an attack (I can't imagine this being an attack type).
Assassin (variant 1)
$4 - Action
Place an Assassin token on top of a Kingdom card pile, or move the token to another Kingdom card pile.
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When any player plays a card from the supply pile with an Assassin token, the card is trashed after it is in play.
Another idea I have is to make a 'reverse-bane' card where you can add another kingdom pile, and if they play that card, they get something bad.
Assassin (variant 2)
$4 - Action-Attacion
All other players gain a copy of the Target card from its supply.
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When a player plays a copy of the Target card, he gains a Curse.
Setup: Add an extra Kingdom card pile costing $2 or $3 to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Target cards.
Again, I suck at costing, but you'd get the idea on both designs.
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Assassin
$5 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
Each other player reveals the top four cards of their deck, one at a time. They discard one of your choice, and put the other revealed cards back on top in their original order.
[Edit: attempt to fix clunky wording]
Compare this to Rabble:
Pros: More cards revealed, Coppers and Ruins not automatically discarded, no chance to reorder (though Rabble's reordering ability is only marginally useful).
Cons: Fewer cards drawn, can only discard one useful card at a time.
In the end, I just don't think this attempt is strong enough compared to Rabble for a $5 cost. Would it work at $4?
That's true. I think allowing this type of card as an $4 opener would be frustrating for players. Rabble can be rough to get hit with on turns 3/4, but it also leads to quicker reshuffles for you. So I would rather the Assassin cost 5 and have better bonuses (or a stronger attack).
I've also thought that this card could work as a targeted trasher, if your opponent had some kind of opt out (bribery!). Give me a gold or trash your card?
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Targeted trasher with bribes...
Assassin
$5 - Action-Attack
+2 Cards
Reveal an Action card from your hand. If you do, each opponent reveals cards from the top of his deck until he reveals a copy of that card or a Treasure costing at least as much as it, then trashes the copy or discards the Treasure (wording?), then discards the revealed cards.
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Warrior
$5 - Action/Attack
+$2
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand chooses a card from his hand and reveals the others. Choose one of the revealed cards for him to discard.
I still prefer this wording, which I see as more elegant:
$5 - Action/Attack
+$2
Each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals 4 cards from his hand. He discards one of them card that you choose.
It performs differently in games with Governor and Council Room, but I think I prefer it this way.
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Here is a fix to my earlier Assassin since the "slow attack" thing couldn't be cleared up.
Assassin
5
Action - Attack
+3 Cards. Discard 2 cards or 1 copper.
Choose one: +1 Card; or each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals a number of cards equal to the number of Assassin cards you have in play. Each player discards one revealed card of your choice.
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I'll try my hand at this.
Assassin
$5 Action - Attack
+2 Cards
Trash a card from your hand. If it is an...
Action card -- each other player trashes the top card of his deck and gains a card with the same cost that you choose.
Treasure card -- each other player discards down to 3 cards in his hand.
Victory card -- each other player gains a Curse.
He can hurt people in a lot of different ways, for the right price. Not sure if Swindler is the best choice for the first effect, but I wanted to represent the three classes of attacks -- junking, handsize, and deck inspection.
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I'll try my hand at this.
Assassin
$5 Action - Attack
+2 Cards
Trash a card from your hand. If it is an...
Action card -- each other player trashes the top card of his deck and gains a card with the same cost that you choose.
Treasure card -- each other player discards down to 3 cards in his hand.
Victory card -- each other player gains a Curse.
I think that the Action card should be the strongest attack of the three.
One of these:
each other player reveals then discards the top 3 cards of his deck, and trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6.
each other player reveals the top 4 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure that you choose, and discards the rest.
each other player reveals the top 4 cards of his deck, discards the revealed Actions and Treasures, and puts the rest back on top in any order he chooses.
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I've played around with this card name, too.
Here's my most recent idea:
Assassin
$5 Action-Attack
Each other player discards an action or treasure card from their hand, or reveals a hand without any actions or treasures. For each treasure card discarded in this way, you gain a silver. If any other player has 3 or less cards in their hand, they may draw 3 cards.
The wording at the end is awkward, but I couldn't figure out how to phrase it. This is a semi-targetted discard attack that I figure fits the theme. The last clause is to make stacking Assassins disadvantageous. (After all, they are pretty expensive to hire.) I changed an earlier version that forced you to discard an action, and was consequently terrible against big money, to make this one.
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"Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand reveals two cards from his hand with different names (or reveals a hand with no differently named cards) and discards a card you choose from among cards revealed this way."
Early, it's a better Cutpurse that doesn't stack. Late, it hurts good hands and whiffs on bad hands, but it only ever gets your second worst card.
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And now for something completely different...
Assassin
$3 Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one: trash up to three cards that are not victory cards from the supply OR trash one victory card from the supply.
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When I think of Assassin, I think of the name's origin, as it is described in a book, I'm reading (Tschingis Chan und sein Erbe) "Hashashin" - "hash eater", it is a fanatic sect in many castles in the Elburs Mountains, founded by the old man Hassan Ibn Ssabach. He seeks strong and young men who then get intoxicated with hash and other drugs and then in their hash dreams, they are brought into a beautiful garden with exotic plants and all good things, and there will be women singing, dancing, playing the lute. Then after tasting a bit of paradise, he will be brought back, right where his dreams started and after this, he will talk about having seen the paradise as it is written of in the book of Qur'an, which will be given to those who die while doing their master's biddings. After this experience, they are called "Fedawi" - "one sacrificing his life" and they are used for various targets: a sultan on his feast, a victorious general on his parade, a senior official, who gets too influential, they all die to a dagger, the preferred weapon of the Assassins. In contrast to popular belief, it was not the intention of the Fedawi to remain unseen or hidden in any kind, after their dirty work was done, instead they greet the arrow that ends their lives and with the cry "We are the sacrificial animals of our Lord!" they will die.
So my take on this subject will have some themes mixed in them:
- the obvious killing theme
- the "promised paradise" theme
- the might and dread theme
- suicide / seeking death theme
Assassin
$5 Action - Attack
+1 Action
+1 Card
+$2
Each other player reveals cards until he reveals a victory or action card, trashes the card and discards the rest. Then he may gain a card costing $1 less or $1 more than the trashed card of his choice.
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While this is in play, when you play an Attack, trash Assassin.
This card with just the first three lines is nothing but crazy: an always activated Conspirator! But with the bottom line penalty that prevents chaining of Assassins in some way (you may chain them once, but afterwards, they are already in heaven, i.e. the trash).
The attack part of the card is somewhat weird, to say the least. Only targets Victory cards. Turns Duchies into Gold (or a $4), Province into Platin (only when available). It targets his score directly with the risk of giving his Deck fuel to start over again. I'm not very convinced of the attack part, I just wanted to make a card with the bottom line as a drawback. What do you think?
edit:
Thinking about it, this card may be too bad for the game: Trashing all the victory cards. [Maybe changing the bottom line into any Action, will help.]
edit2: I changed it to target victory or action cards (whichever comes first) like jamespotter suggested. Then we can rebalance the bottom line to Attack again.
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Assassin
$5 Action - Attack
+1 Action
+1 Card
+$2
Each other player reveals cards until he reveals a victory card, trashes the card and discards the rest. Then he may gain a card costing $1 less or $1 more than the trashed card of his choice.
_________
While this is in play, when you play an Attack (edit: Action), trash Assassin.
This is an interesting take on Assassin, but the targeting of victory cards is way too strong for any cost card. Also, if it hits a province, a vast majority of the time the player will not be able to gain anything, which makes it even more devastating. I would suggest allowing this attack to include action cards as well. The rest of the card is a cool idea, though.