Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Dominion: Dark Ages Previews => Topic started by: Kelume on August 20, 2012, 06:13:07 pm
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So, the consensus seems to be in on Rats, and it's bad. Like, really bad - predictions are anywhere from bottom quarter $4 to the worst card since Scout. I'm here to defend it! (Please note that this is all speculation.)
Rats is obviously terrible in money. Like, so bad, really really bad. But that's not its purpose. Well, what is? Assuming good collision, Rats will clear your deck of starting Estates by your third shuffle. But, now you have four useless Rats instead of 3 Estates and a $4 card. Is that better? Not by itself, certainly.
Consider though that each time you trash a Rats, you get Labbed for free. Rats lets you choose to trash two AND draw two with Steward. Rats turns Junk Dealer into some kind of crazy Lab-Peddler-trasher hybrid monster. Quite possibly, the +1 card on trash is the biggest draw of Rats: if you could have otherwise built an engine by trashing your starting cards, you can gain +10 cards by doing so if you eat them with Rats first. (Note that this is however offset by the -10 cards you lose at the moment of trashing those cards; still, in many cases you would have trashed them voluntarily with no recompense.)
Perhaps more importantly, there are several cards which notably it will combo nicely with (Apprentice and Death Cart have been raised as examples), and I want to find more:
- Scrying Pool: Accelerates the removal of coppers/estates so you can reach deck-drawing faster
- Watchtower: On collision, turns Rats into trashing Labs
- Trader: Trade Rats for 4 silvers and 1 card
- Forge, Remake, Apprentice, Salvager, Remodel, Develop, Expand, Graverobber, Bishop, Governor: Adds $2-4 to cards which you would otherwise wish to be rid of, and also draws one additional card upon trashing
- Against Saboteur, Knights, Rogue, Swindler (to a lesser degree): Causes the risk of Labbing you and makes further Rogues useless
- Fortress: Makes Rats drastically safer to play to remove Coppers/Estates; with deck in hand, can pile Rats in one turn while trashing no other cards (ideally, to end the game)
- Poor House: Managing just two of these with no treasures in deck is a Province.
- Vineyards: In combination with some of the above.
All I'm sayin' is, don't discount it yet.
What are your thoughts on potential uses for this card?
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I think the best part about Rats will be in assisting target limited trashers. By that I mean trashers that are limited to trashing only actions or trashing non-treasures. These cards can only clear your deck so far. Using Rats to convert your useless cards into cantrips means that Jack/Hermit will always have a useful target to trash and Death Cart just keeps on giving.
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HaHa RATS!!!!!! There could be an interesting engine with Forager. I think it might work mainly because you can always play your forager before you play a rats. Just trash everything else and have 4 foragers worth 3 with no alternate treasures (more with more treasures). You would empty the rats pile quickly so you would want to start rats/forager. or maby forager/forager. It would have to work quickly because you might have to trash a few provinces but if it goes fast enough it could work. I don't know that it will however but its interesting.
With Alternate VP you could also very quickly empty say rats, gardens, estates. but again you would have to be extremely fast.
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I think the best part about Rats will be in assisting target limited trashers. By that I mean trashers that are limited to trashing only actions or trashing non-treasures. These cards can only clear your deck so far. Using Rats to convert your useless cards into cantrips means that Jack/Hermit will always have a useful target to trash and Death Cart just keeps on giving.
It obviously conflicts with Spice Merchant, though.
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Rats are wonderful if you can Masquerade/Ambassador/Swindler/Jester/etc. their way into your opponents' deck. They're also the only furry and cute Dominion card, so there's at least that.
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They're also the only furry and cute Dominion card, so there's at least that.
Trusty Steed?
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I think the best part about Rats will be in assisting target limited trashers. By that I mean trashers that are limited to trashing only actions or trashing non-treasures. These cards can only clear your deck so far. Using Rats to convert your useless cards into cantrips means that Jack/Hermit will always have a useful target to trash and Death Cart just keeps on giving.
It obviously conflicts with Spice Merchant, though.
Yeah I only mean trashers limited to non-treasures
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They're also the only furry and cute Dominion card, so there's at least that.
Trusty Steed?
Noble. Handsome. But not furry and cute.
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They're also the only furry and cute Dominion card, so there's at least that.
Trusty Steed?
Noble. Handsome. But not furry and cute.
Eurgh. "furry" makes me think of Furries, and I don't want to do that.
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They're also the only furry and cute Dominion card, so there's at least that.
Trusty Steed?
Noble. Handsome. But not furry and cute.
Eurgh. "furry" makes me think of Furries, and I don't want to do that.
Touche.
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Chapel
Remodel
Masquerade
Steward
Trading Post
Upgrade
Lookout
Salvager
Transmute
Vineyard
Scrying Pool
Apprentice
Trade Route
Watchtower
Bishop
Expand
Forge
Remake
Develop
Jack of All Trades
Trader
Farmland
Poor House
Squire
Hermit
Forager
Urchin/Marauder
Market Square
Feodum
Fortress
Catacombs
Count
Graverobber
Altar
Hunting Grounds
Governor
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A four-card combo popped into my head the first time I read about the Dark Ages cards. It might never come up in a real game, and I'm not sure how tenable it is, but I enjoy thinking about it. The combo is Rats/Squire/Scrying Pool/Goons.
The idea is this: open Rats/Squire. Let the Rats run rampant, eating your starters, and buy Squires whenever you can. Then trash Squires with Rats to buy Scrying Pools and Goons. Once the Rats have trashed all the starting cards, one Scrying Pool would pick up your entire deck. You could use Squires for actions and chain your Goons together, buying only action cards every turn.
You would need to buy a Potion and get more Scrying Pools the old-fashioned way, I think. You wouldn't want to trash all your Squires, and you wouldn't want too many Rats, but you would want to draw a Scrying Pool every turn, if possible. I don't know if this would work - it might take too long to set up - and I probably will never get a chance to play it, because it requires four specific cards coming up in the same game. Regardless I think it would be fun.
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A four-card combo popped into my head the first time I read about the Dark Ages cards. It might never come up in a real game, and I'm not sure how tenable it is, but I enjoy thinking about it. The combo is Rats/Squire/Scrying Pool/Goons.
The idea is this: open Rats/Squire. Let the Rats run rampant, eating your starters, and buy Squires whenever you can. Then trash Squires with Rats to buy Scrying Pools and Goons. Once the Rats have trashed all the starting cards, one Scrying Pool would pick up your entire deck. You could use Squires for actions and chain your Goons together, buying only action cards every turn.
You would need to buy a Potion and get more Scrying Pools the old-fashioned way, I think. You wouldn't want to trash all your Squires, and you wouldn't want too many Rats, but you would want to draw a Scrying Pool every turn, if possible. I don't know if this would work - it might take too long to set up - and I probably will never get a chance to play it, because it requires four specific cards coming up in the same game. Regardless I think it would be fun.
Agreed. Also, seems like you could replace goons with any money-generating attack and still be pretty happy here.
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But Goons adds the bonus of being able to get points without green cards. If you add a scheme to that deck, then you only need the one Scrying pool!
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So, I've posted this twice before, but I still want to hear some thoughts on it. I think that the way to think of Rats is as a really awkward tfb which turns anything into a Rats. So, anything becomes a $4. I think that this makes other tfbs better because they can now get more profit from Estates and Coppers. So, my idea on how to use Rats is as follows:
1: Buy Rats
2: Buy TFB (Likely more than one)
3: Use Rats to trash copper/estate (priority copper; TFBs handle estates pretty well (when you don't get the tfb with rats, that is)) and gain a rats
4: Use TFB to trash Rats for benefit.
5: Repeat steps 3-4 as needed and as long as it's safe.
6: Trash remaining Rats
7: Be awesome.
What do people think?
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Obviously, it's only a trashing tactic to be used as support for another engine, but I think it's viable in that case.
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I'm not sold on trashing Coppers over Estates. You want the extra bit of money offered by those Coppers, and you already have a plethora of Rats to trash for benefit which are a much better target than Estates.
Otherwise, it could certainly work. Time will tell!
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Yeah, I'm not too sure either. But I'd think that while you have a low chance of collision, you want to maximize the chance that your tfb gets something worth trashing. Later on, you're probably right.
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Chapel
Remodel
Masquerade
Steward
Trading Post
Upgrade
Lookout
Salvager
Transmute
Vineyard
Scrying Pool
Apprentice
Trade Route
Watchtower
Bishop
Expand
Forge
Remake
Develop
Jack of All Trades
Trader
Farmland
Poor House
Squire
Hermit
Forager
Urchin/Marauder
Market Square
Feodum
Fortress
Catacombs
Count
Graverobber
Altar
Hunting Grounds
Governor
I'm assuming:
italics: You should have just gotten this card in the first place
normal: Decent combo-ish
bold: Awesome combo!
I disagree on Bishop being italicized, though. Instead of trashing Coppers to your Bishop for only 1 VP, you're now trashing Rats for 3 VP each. And you draw a card! That's a marked improvement.
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I think we're all going to try foolish things with Rats. I really want to open Rats/Market Square on a board with no other trashers, just to see if I can make it work. Only play Rats with MS in hand, supplement it with some good card draw, occasionally use the extra buy to pick up more copper for rat fodder. Storeroom might be nice here, to cycle past the Rats and monetize them.
This is probably dangerous, probably a bad idea, really want to try it.
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Death Cart... anyone?
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Death Cart... anyone?
Needs +Action and +Buy.
But yes!
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Chapel
Remodel
Masquerade
Steward
Trading Post
Upgrade
Lookout
Salvager
Transmute
Vineyard
Scrying Pool
Apprentice
Trade Route
Watchtower
Bishop
Expand
Forge
Remake
Develop
Jack of All Trades
Trader
Farmland
Poor House
Squire
Hermit
Forager
Urchin/Marauder
Market Square
Feodum
Fortress
Catacombs
Count
Graverobber
Altar
Hunting Grounds
Governor
I'm assuming:
italics: You should have just gotten this card in the first place
normal: Decent combo-ish
bold: Awesome combo!
I disagree on Bishop being italicized, though. Instead of trashing Coppers to your Bishop for only 1 VP, you're now trashing Rats for 3 VP each. And you draw a card! That's a marked improvement.
You should of gotten transmute in the first place?
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Transmute/rats seems interesting for a quick three pile duchy strategy.
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There's no denying what Rats can do if you turn it around as an Attack card. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it were one, or some form of it, somewhere during its history.
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There's no denying what Rats can do if you turn it around as an Attack card. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it were one, or some form of it, somewhere during its history.
There's nothing it can do that a regular curse wouldn't have done better. Getting one into an opponent's deck doesn't force them to ever play it.
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There's no denying what Rats can do if you turn it around as an Attack card. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it were one, or some form of it, somewhere during its history.
There's nothing it can do that a regular curse wouldn't have done better. Getting one into an opponent's deck doesn't force them to ever play it.
Usually true, but not always. You can mess with their Golems. You can also get in the way of their Sages and Farming Villages, when Curse wouldn't.
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There's no denying what Rats can do if you turn it around as an Attack card. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it were one, or some form of it, somewhere during its history.
There's nothing it can do that a regular curse wouldn't have done better. Getting one into an opponent's deck doesn't force them to ever play it.
Usually true, but not always. You can mess with their Golems. You can also get in the way of their Sages and Farming Villages, when Curse wouldn't.
Dominion community - #1 in expressly finding edge cases for everything.
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Just thinking out loud: with 1 Bishop and all Rats for the rest of your hand, you could guarantee 3VP every turn (trash a Rat, buy a copper or curse, keep playing Rats until you hit the Bishop, eat up any coppers/curses along the way, rinse and repeat), until the Rats run out (but that's too slow).
With 2 Bishops and 1 or more Worker's Villages and Rats for the rest of your hand, then your play could be:
1) Your hand is Bishop only + Rats: Trash a Rat for 3VP, buy a copper or a curse.
2) Your hand is Worker's Village + Rats: play it and get a +buy, keep playing Rats until you hit both (or more) Bishops: 6VP, buy 2 or more coppers to feed your Rats.
3) Your hand is all Rats: keep playing Rats until you get to 1) or 2).
You could collect at least 3VP every turn until all the Rats run out. If you managed to trash all 20 Rats that's 60VP. With 2 Bishops in play you could conceivably buy out all the estates along with the Rats and Curses for 3-pile.
Pawn and Hamlet would also work well for this to get +Buy. You'd never need to buy a $5 card.
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In 2) and 3), how are you planning to keep the rats from eating your Bishop/WV as soon as you draw it?
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In 2) and 3), how are you planning to keep the rats from eating your Bishop/WV as soon as you draw it?
Aack ... never mind, you're right.
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Death Cart... anyone?
When I read the Dark Ages rules for the first time, I laughed out loud at one point. My wife asked why and I told her, "I just think it's funny that a card called Death Cart could combo so well with a card called Rats." Bring out your dead!
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I truly look forward to when I finally manage to ambassador a rats to an unsuspecting opponent relying on golem. What a hilarious and thematic way to completely destroy someone else's strategy! They've got a golem, but you've catapulted some rats into their city and now the stupid golem keeps feeding the rats, causing them to take over everything.