Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: yuma on June 18, 2012, 05:59:28 pm
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I--like many other Dominion players--over buy Fishing Village. It is such a simple little card that it just sneaks into my deck every time it is on the board. But it isn't always the correct choice. Currently I buy it 91% of the time according to Council Room (http://councilroom.com/popular_buys?player=yuma) and when I do buy it I buy about 4 of them.
My goal is to get my Fishing Village % to drop to about 80% of all games. That seems perhaps still a little high, but probably about where I would want it to be.
What do you guys think? This isn't an attempt to not use Fishing Village when I should be, but instead a reminder that I need to think whether I actually need them or if there is a better way to accomplish my goal. What % do you think is ideal?
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I think that if your goal is to lower that percentage to 80%, it's going to take forever and involve you never buying Fishing Village for a long time.
It says there that you gain it 91.7% of the time, and it's been available to you in 169 games. That means you've gained it in 155 out of 169 games. For that to drop to 80%, you'd have to not gain it in the next 25 games where it is available.
Now if you want to keep separate logs on your own of how often you gain Fishing Village when it's available, that might be a good goal. But even then, it'll take a while to tease out any sort of useful numbers.
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I think 80% is a good bit low.
Seriously, almost any terminal action makes it worth it.
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I think 80% is a good bit low.
Seriously, almost any terminal action makes it worth it.
Perhaps what I need then as well is to use it more effectively. Is 90% too high, because I feel that it is. 85%
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I buy Fishing Village 97.5 percent of the time.
This is a bit too much, but just a bit. 91% strikes me as eminently reasonable, not too high at all. The only situations I can think of where it's actively a bad idea are games where you want to rush Victory or Treasure cards (Gardens, Silk Road, maybe Duchy/Duke sometimes, IGG, Fool's Gold, Venture). Perhaps NV/Bridge. Maaaaaaybe a Stables-based deck with no terminals to speak of would prefer Silver from the get-go, too, but why would you build such a thing.
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The only time I don't spam FV is when there are no terminals I want to use.
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I gain 88.2% of the time, for reference. Which is probably pretty reasonable. I doubt you'd go much lower. ~90% is likely around 'correct'?
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I'm at 86.8%. Feeling pretty decent about that number, should probably be higher if I had a better playing style though.
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I gain FV 79.7% of the time and have a 0.91 effect without. I do somewhat poorly with it though, considering my -1.54 effect with
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94% here, 1.31 with, 1.29 without. Fishing village is very rarely a bad decision. It's just not significantly worse than silver.
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Oh, effects with/without!
My Effect With for Fishing Village is 1.25, and my Effect Without is -0.82. Maybe I should be buying it more than 97.5 percent of the time with those numbers. :P
(Actually it's probably more the case that I'm not as good at the sorts of games where you don't want Fishing Village. Or that I've avoided it so rarely for so long that my games without are disproportionately from when I was a Level 0 noob who didn't know the meaning of the word "engine". But I like the first explanation anyway.)
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Consider also that the average for all players is nearly 92%. I really don't think that's a mistake; FV really is that good, and unlike Masquerade and Ambassador at $3, has almost no reason to leave it alone (other than a board full of cantrips).
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Aw jeez, I am coming in at just under 80% gain rate. What type of sick Dominion player enjoys building engines yet picks up FV in less than four out of five games.
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Fishing village is pretty great. It's almost always better than a silver.
But because it's a duration it misses the shuffle a lot - meaning you get to play it a lot less often than a silver. In straight-up big money it will lose to silver. So it needs actions.
If you ate playing a kingdom where you don't need extra actions (lots of cantrips, no extra draw) fv usually isnt worth it.
That said 80-85% sounds about right.
Ed
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Is there a way to search for Council Room logs where, say, I didn't buy Fishing Village even though it was available?
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Fishing Village is at the top of my list at 91.9%.
My effect with and without are both negative though. >:(
My effect with Copper is much higher. ::)
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Interesting.
My acquisition rate is 92.4, which is about the same as the average (91.9)
Win rate with: 1.16 ± 0.16
Win rate without: 1.25 ± 0.56
(population average for both is about 1.00)
But what does this mean? My overall stats suggest I'm better than the average player, but that doesn't tell me whether my acquisition rate is on target. Also, there's a lot of uncertainty in my win rate without, what with me turning it down in only 1 in 10 of my fishing village games.
The only time I don't spam FV is when there are no terminals I want to use.
I'd refine this broad generalisation as follows:
If there are terminals that I want to play multiple of each turn, then I strongly consider fishing village.
Exception 1: if the terminal doesn't draw cards, and there's no other good source of +cards, I'll likely pass on fishing village. For example, Fishing Village / Bridge doesn't work as well as it ought to unless you have +cards.
Exception 2: If its more important to get to $5 fast, I'd be more inclined to go silver/silver. For example, Witch or Mountebank. Mountebank of particular note here, as the deck dilution will make it unlikely I'll have two terminals to play in one turn, and it doesn't draw cards.
Exception 3: Even if there is +cards, if there is no +buy I'll consider whether its worth building an engine at all. For example, I suspect Envoy + Big Money is faster than the same +fishing villages.
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Would you go FV-Monument over simple BM-Monument?
Would you go FV-Swindler over BM-Swindler?
What I'm asking is: How bad can the terminal be that you don't want FV anymore.
1 FV can support 2 terminals quite easily, because there are a lot of good situations:
- Either terminal in hand and the other terminal in another hand
- FV and both terminals in hand
- FV played previous turn and both terminals in hand
The only bad situation is both terminals in hand with no FV this or the previous turn.
Stretching this I think 1 FV can support 3 terminals pretty decently.
I'll make a Sim challenge out of it. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3020.0)
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Effect with: 0.00
Effect without: 4.16
Apparently I'm really good at recognizing when it's a bad card. That's 152 games and I acquire it 88.8% of the time.
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Would you go FV-Monument over simple BM-Monument?
Would you go FV-Swindler over BM-Swindler?
What I'm asking is: How bad can the terminal be that you don't want FV anymore.
1 FV can support 2 terminals quite easily, because there are a lot of good situations:
- Either terminal in hand and the other terminal in another hand
- FV and both terminals in hand
- FV played previous turn and both terminals in hand
The only bad situation is both terminals in hand with no FV this or the previous turn.
Stretching this I think 1 FV can support 3 terminals pretty decently.
I'll make a Sim challenge out of it. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3020.0)
Monument and Swindler would be terminals I'd want to play more than once a turn, so yes to both of those. In fact I probably would barely buy money at all in those games.
Its not so much "bad" terminal, but rather a terminal that doesn't benefit from being played multiply without +cards. Bridge is the main one I can think of - noone would argue that Bridge is a weak card, but certainly I wouldn't try to build Fishing Village / Bridge without +cards. I guess Sea Hag springs to mind as well. I can't think of many reasons why I'd want more than 1 Sea Hag in most games. Other weaker candidates: Trader (silver instead), Baron (warehouse instead), Moneylender (silver instead), Remake, Conspirator (any drawing cantrip instead), Militia (silver instead).
Of course, we're looking at rare situations here - mostly even if the terminals are unsupported there's still potential for more complex competitive builds involving FV. So I still buy/gain it 90% of the time! Remake alone might not build a deck with just Fishing Village, but with one or two other cards it becomes an awesome combo. Hell, even if I go Silver/Silver to get to Witch fast, I'll still get Fishing Villages after that, just for the off chance of double-witching.
Having said that, I also think there's few situations where I "spam" Fishing Villages, if by this we mean buying them as fast as possible and getting as many of them as I can. The main one I can think of is if they are critical to a core combo, like Fishing Village / Wharf. For something more sedate, like Fishing Village / Monument, I'd be inclined to buy Monument at least as often in the early game.