Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion Online at Shuffle iT => Dominion General Discussion => Dominion Isotropic => Topic started by: theory on April 16, 2012, 10:15:20 am
-
Inspired by WW's admission that he just cannot solve marin (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2230.0): who is your Isotropic nemesis?
I have trouble against the very good engine builders. AVeryHappyFish, Obi Wan Bonogi, DG, etc. all dominate me whenever I play because I end up on the receiving end of some ridiculous engine that I wrote off as unfeasible. Of course, they are at the top of the leaderboard, so I assume everyone has difficulty with them. I am sure that there are others I would struggle against as well, but those are just the ones I have played (and lost to) the most.
-
Although I don't have a large amount of games logged (compared to some others), this is no question for me. Olneyce eliminated me in the quarterfinals of the DS Championship and again in Isodome 3. While I have respectable records against other top players, I just haven't been able to get the upper hand against olneyce.
-
I'll have to second Obi Wan. I'm 9-16 (36%) against him lifetime, by far the worst record against anyone where I have a meaningful sample. Somehow I lose in situations which seem impossible to lose from against him, which is why it's so annoying to play him :)
While I wouldn't consider any of them nemeses, I probably become even more comptetive when playing the high-volume players near the top of the leaderboard. Winning against chwhite (though I haven't beaten him much lately :( ), jonts or WW feels a lot better (and losing feels a lot worse) than beating some random lvl 35-40 player, for me, and (trying to) doing well against the very top players is what keeps my interest in the game up.
I also have a feeling my name will come up from at least one specific player ;)
-
I don't have nemesises. I am one. MUHAHAHAHAH!
Seriously, though, I'm currently 2-6 against Fabian on Isotropic and it's probably a lot worse IRL. Other than that I feel that I loose a lot to PSUmvp and ghweiss, although it's not really that bad.
-
I'll have to third Obi Wan. I'm 2-6 against him, including four(!!!) resignations, all because I had fallen hopelessly behind in a game, they weren't even close.
On the plus side, my most recent win against him was 187-49 ::) (Goons-Wharf-Forge-King's Court-Mining Village)
-
Lekkit and O, if being 2-6 against someone counts as nemesis territory, I have a lot more! And I guess a lot of people would consider me one too, then :)
-
Arya Stark Vs Tony Stark ;D
-
I'll have to confess to not being on top of the leaderboard and only having an even ratio with Theory, and not having played him for 6 months :) . I suppose I do try unconventional engines. Anyway there was a nice guy called African Heat who had a run against me for a while. I certainly remember getting one crunhcing king's court/saboteur win against him and feeling some measure of relief. In the other games there were plenty of moments like "He's taken two estates from the top of his deck with the scout, again!".
-
Lekkit and O, if being 2-6 against someone counts as nemesis territory, I have a lot more! And I guess a lot of people would consider me one too, then :)
There's a difference between taking every 2-6 and turning them into nemesises (nemesi?) and feeling a seething hatred growing inside of you every time you hear their name. ;)
-
So that's how you feel about me eh?
-
I guess that depends on the outcome of our IsoDom match and what the final standings of the Dominion League looks like. 8)
-
I have actually have had very 50/50 like records against most of the top players. Similar to Fabian, I do get much more competitive when I play top players although I haven't had much time to be in the scene lately.
With that said, my nemesis is (was?) stef just baffled me game after game. I remember playing a 4 game set with him and lost 4 times in a row. stef was like lv 45ish then just disappeared, what happened? I'm currently 1-5 and would like to TRY and redeem myself.
-
There's a difference between taking every 2-6 and turning them into nemesises (nemesi?) and feeling a seething hatred growing inside of you every time you hear their name. ;)
Pretty sure plural of nemesis is nemeses (pronounced nem uh seez)
I guess I can call perdhapley my nemesis, he crushed me 6-1 in isodom challenge and I think I'm 0-2 against him otherwise. I don't despise playing against him though, he's a nice guy and we had some great games.
-
With that said, my nemesis is (was?) stef just baffled me game after game. I remember playing a 4 game set with him and lost 4 times in a row. stef was like lv 45ish then just disappeared, what happened? I'm currently 1-5 and would like to TRY and redeem myself.
I remember him too. I was almost lvl 40 when he showed up, so I played him 3 times. Won two of those. But he was crazily good.
-
Of all players I've played at least 15 games against, my worst record is against Michael Harris. But although I'm slightly ahead at the moment, I've always considered chwhite my nemesis, or maybe rival is a better term.
And just to brag a bit, I think I have to be considered Obi Wan's nemesis. I'm 19-7 against him.
-
Of all players I've played at least 15 games against, my worst record is against Michael Harris. But although I'm slightly ahead at the moment, I've always considered chwhite my nemesis, or maybe rival is a better term.
And just to brag a bit, I think I have to be considered Obi Wan's nemesis. I'm 19-7 against him.
Man! I'm 16-14 in my last 30 against him (losing a bit overall I think, harder to tell with how CR is now, not that I'm complaining), but that's really impressive! Dang
-
I generally play on auto-match, so I get a wide variety of opponents, and I haven't played any one of them enough to have a large enough sample size to be able to label one a 'nemesis.'
(btw, I'm always up for an invite game with any player of any level. If you're ever on and see paddyodoors feel free to invite me.
Also, I'm trying to improve my game -- so if you're a top-player or even a higher-rank, I'd love to play against you for the sake of learning.
And if you're lower level, I promise I won't bite, I just enjoy playing and I'm more than willing to share whatever tidbits I've picked up along the way.)
One player makes me feel like he is my nemesis is fellowmartian (0-5-1)... he is the only player who I have never beaten after at least 5 games. But like I said, small sample size, so we're not in nemesis territory yet.
-
And just to brag a bit, I think I have to be considered Obi Wan's nemesis. I'm 19-7 against him.
For what it's worth, Obi Wan Bonogi agrees (http://www.reddit.com/r/dominion/comments/rl4ru/lvl_45_on_isotropic_with_3k_games_played_ama/c46wdky?context=1)
-
For me it's Fabian. 3-11(21%)! Though it's better than then 1-10 it was at one point...
-
I can specifically remember the first game I ever played against WanderingWinder: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120122-142155-646aa9c9.html
I remember the game because I got a 3/4 start on a Minion and Torturer-with-lots-of-Villages setup, and he got 5/2. He got 3 Torturers and 3 village type cards (Border and Farming) before I hit $5 once. But I pulled out the win here by going for like 8 Minions, so I was pretty proud of myself!
Yeah, too bad I would almost never beat him again. My record against WW now stands at 4-18-1, way way worse than my record against anybody else. I need him to make educational Dominion videos where he explains how to defeat himself, I guess.
-
outside of playing with friends and family...
ddubois is the one who comes to mind. i am 1-9-0 against him and it seems like it is never even close. i've had some real stinkers (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120129-211841-7f66ed35.html) against RisingJaguar too.
on the flip side, i always seem to have chwhite figured out, 9-2-1 overall. and i must say that i do enjoy stealing wins against Fabian or WanderingWinder.
-
I have really low sample numbers as I always play auto match when not with friends, but I would say "most challenging opponent" either goes to chwhite, Rabid or manzi. Eli_K is a lower-level player (than them) that always gives me an uphill game. I wouldn't consider any of them a "nemesis" though. I pretty much treat all my opponents the same unless they give me a reason not to.
-
I decided that if I ever got really really good at this game I would make my username KHAAAAAAAAAAN!! for just this nemesis reason!
-
Of all players I've played at least 15 games against, my worst record is against Michael Harris. But although I'm slightly ahead at the moment, I've always considered chwhite my nemesis, or maybe rival is a better term.
And just to brag a bit, I think I have to be considered Obi Wan's nemesis. I'm 19-7 against him.
Man! I'm 16-14 in my last 30 against him (losing a bit overall I think, harder to tell with how CR is now, not that I'm complaining), but that's really impressive! Dang
Just to point out, in case anyone has had the same problem as WW: your record by opponent is still linked to from your player page, it just doesn't appear there by default any more.
-
Given the way I've been playing the last week or two, I think my brain is my nemesis.
I usually auto-match +/- 10, so I don't have lots of games against too many people except those I encounter in tournament play, and very few games against the big names. Of the people I've played lots of games against, it looks like my nemesis is Andwilk, who crushed me all the time in BGGDL and crushed me 2-5 in Isodom this week, though we have similar levels.
-
My nemesis has to be ehunt- Haven't run into him in a while but he just destroys me (3-13) and all the games I play against him just feel like I'm discovering that I know nothing about this game.
-
I am my own worst enemy.
I think it's part of what separates the great from the really good to the good.
I've been doing really well recently, and I think that a large part of that is my recent (better) understanding of board flow. I used to see a board, and either choose to play cards I like (ie. Ambassador // Masquerade), or go with a set of cards that I know work together. I never really spared a thought for... "How fast is this board going to play, and what do I need to do in order to be competitive"? There are often many strategies on almost every board, and rarely is there an absolute "correct" one. Instead of playing things I know WILL work, I've recently been looking for what WILL be competitive (and ideally leave me with an edge).
Aiming for Tournament domination is great and all... but if IW, Great Hall and Silk Road are on the board as well...
So I don't feel that there is any OTHER person that truly vexes me more than myself.
-
I probably have two nemeses: WHARF 2 THA BRIDGE, played 4 games against him and have gotten completely trounced each game. He has been gone for a while though. My other nemesis is DG, although I don't think I've played him since the good ol' BGGDL days: 7-23-0
-
Stef, who had like 400 games and was outplaying me left and right. I was sure he was going to reach the n°1 spot in no time, but he's disappeared. Loads of talent there.
And apparently WW because I'm 2-7 against him.
-
Stef, who had like 400 games and was outplaying me left and right. I was sure he was going to reach the n°1 spot in no time, but he's disappeared. Loads of talent there.
You must have missed a day, he got it (http://bggdl.square7.ch/leaderboard/leaderboard-2012-02-07.html) back in February.
-
I could give several different answers depending on how you define "nemesis".
I've played more games against WanderingWinder than anyone else- a staggering 201- and it would make sense for there to be some rivalry: we're right next to each other on the leaderboard, he has the ever-so-slight edge in head-to-head, and we have strongly contrasting styles. (Although I'm far from the most engine-y player out there, it's pretty common for me to choose the more BM-esque route in games against players like Obi Wan Bonogi.) But WW doesn't really feel like a nemesis at all, for whatever reason.
Looking at actual records, Fabian is the player I seem to do worst against- 37-55-3 lifetime, whereas I'm no more than a few games behind any other player.
I think I'm gonna have to go with Latvia/midnight_girl/ARTjoMS as my final answer, even though when you add up all of ART's aliases I'm slightly over .500. For whatever reason, those games always seem tense and hard-fought, and I know I can't slip up and play loose/sloppy like I all too often do.
-
My record against you used to be even better chwhite, you've had the best of me the last few times we've played. I think I used to be at 64% or something, now I'm just below 60. It's still certainly the opponent record which I'm most proud of, considering sample size (I've played you the most of all non-IRL friend people), win%, and opponent strength :)
-
It's a bit scary having Kimbo Slice as a nemesis, I must say.
-
I guess you could call all top-level players who have often defeated me nemeses, but that isn't really fair. I haven't logged enough games against enough of them for it to count. However, having been ruthlessly destroyed and severely outplayed by Fabian in the DS Championships, I could call him a nemesis, but it was such a graceful annihilation, that it was more respect.
No, my nemeses are those near my level or who once were that I can never seem to get past. I am in the mid-30's now and without numbers to back me up, I believe PSUMVP is the opponent closest in rank who defeats me the most. Perdhapley is higher, but always bests me as well.
I would say WW is to some extent only because I remember the days when we were of equal level. That's right folks, way back when he was in his low-mid 30's, we had a few weeks where we would often play each other. Seeing him become a top player and myself remaining in the those low-mid 30's has always been a bit saddening. Maybe not a nemesis, but a representation of what could have been...
-
It's a bit scary having Kimbo Slice as a nemesis, I must say.
Probably just as funny as watching Kimbo Slice play dominion.
-
Of all players I've played at least 15 games against, my worst record is against Michael Harris. But although I'm slightly ahead at the moment, I've always considered chwhite my nemesis, or maybe rival is a better term.
And just to brag a bit, I think I have to be considered Obi Wan's nemesis. I'm 19-7 against him.
Tis true
-
Eli_k seems to be my nemesis, he's won twice as much games as I have (5-11-0) although the sample size isn't that big.
My favorite opponent must be Lekkit, I'm 9-7-1 against him and always feel we are somewhat equally skilled which make for the most interesting games. I'm always trying to push small advantages against him and our games always seem to be nailbiters.
-
I'll have to second Obi Wan. I'm 9-16 (36%) against him lifetime, by far the worst record against anyone where I have a meaningful sample. Somehow I lose in situations which seem impossible to lose from against him, which is why it's so annoying to play him :)
After playing him some more this morning, I've figured out one reason why he crushes me like a child - we mostly play Colony games! I had no idea you could bias towards Colony games in the auto-match pool and still have it count as a rated game, which is pretty disappointing to me. Well, the fact that it still appears as "default card selection" on my screen is kinda silly imo. Now I wish there was some way of auto-declining bias opponents (like with veto mode or point counter), since I prefer playing a random distribution of Colony vs non-Colony games.
-
As far as I know, it's not possible to bias towards Colony games. You can bias towards Prosperity games, but you'll still play a lot of non-Colony games.
-
I think we're saying the same thing then? Bias towards Prosperity -> more Colony games than what random kingdoms would mean -> bias towards Colony games.
-
... Well, the fact that it still appears as "default card selection" on my screen is kinda silly imo. Now I wish there was some way of auto-declining bias opponents (like with veto mode or point counter), since I prefer playing a random distribution of Colony vs non-Colony games.
Trying biasing EVERY option, that's what I do. It feels like I get a better distribution. Utterly subjective, though -- I admit. I only click automatch once all those set boxes are checked, call me crazy if you will.
-
Turambar. No explanation because he forgot what he did to me and I don't want to even do him the favor of reminding him the way he crushed my dreams against the ridge of oblivion and shot my parents in a back alley forcing me to become batman.
-
... Well, the fact that it still appears as "default card selection" on my screen is kinda silly imo. Now I wish there was some way of auto-declining bias opponents (like with veto mode or point counter), since I prefer playing a random distribution of Colony vs non-Colony games.
Trying biasing EVERY option, that's what I do. It feels like I get a better distribution. Utterly subjective, though -- I admit. I only click automatch once all those set boxes are checked, call me crazy if you will.
I think this helps, IIRC Doug's biasing algorithm. I think clicking a particular box gives the cards from that expansion 4x the weight. So if your opponent clicks something and you don't, his biased contribution to the weight is 6 * 1 + 4 * 1 = 10, and your uniform supporting weight is 7 * 1= 7. On the other hand, if you click everything, his weight is still 10, but now yours is 28, so it helps make the distribution more uniform.
-
Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX2eEICejB0
-
... Well, the fact that it still appears as "default card selection" on my screen is kinda silly imo. Now I wish there was some way of auto-declining bias opponents (like with veto mode or point counter), since I prefer playing a random distribution of Colony vs non-Colony games.
Trying biasing EVERY option, that's what I do. It feels like I get a better distribution. Utterly subjective, though -- I admit. I only click automatch once all those set boxes are checked, call me crazy if you will.
I think this helps, IIRC Doug's biasing algorithm. I think clicking a particular box gives the cards from that expansion 4x the weight. So if your opponent clicks something and you don't, his biased contribution to the weight is 6 * 1 + 4 * 1 = 10, and your uniform supporting weight is 7 * 1= 7. On the other hand, if you click everything, his weight is still 10, but now yours is 28, so it helps make the distribution more uniform.
Fascinating. So the auto-match bias works by weighting each card, and cards in biased expansions get increased weight? Once the weights are calculated for each player, are they added together to get the weights used for random selection?
-
Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX2eEICejB0
I almost posted that, haha. Such an important relationship to have
-
Fascinating. So the auto-match bias works by weighting each card, and cards in biased expansions get increased weight? Once the weights are calculated for each player, are they added together to get the weights used for random selection?
I thought it worked by first adding all the weights from all players for each card, and then doing a biased selection based on those weights.
But I can't find a dougz quote supporting this (just read all his 13 posts here, maybe it was on BGG?). So I might just be hallucinating this.
Of course, there is opportunity to reverse engineer it by trying it out a bunch of times and seeing which theories best match the output.
-
Here is the algorithm, from dougz.
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6715749#6715749
- make a deck consisting of one of each available kingdom card
- for each player:
- for each set that player has checked:
- add 4 more copies of each card in that set to the deck
- shuffle the whole thing
- deal from the top of the deck until you have 10 different cards
So yes, it does have the property that checking all the boxes will give you a more uniform distribution if your opponent checks some of the boxes.
-
That's a pretty huge effect then. If only one player is using the checkboxes, then checked cards are 5x as likely to show up as other cards. In the case of Prosperity, since it's a big expansion, that means very roughly nearly half of cards will be expected to come from Prosperity, which means Colony games somewhere near half the time.
-
From now on I'm playing with all boxes checked.
-
Does iso remember the boxes you check after you logout? If not I can make a feature request for drheld's point counter.
-
It doesn't remember between sessions but I think it does between games.
-
I have worse records against some other people, but I've felt really outclassed against Rabid several times. He just approaches the set with such confidence and pulls off things that hadn't even occurred to me...
-
per council room (http://councilroom.com/player?player=Obi+Wan+Bonogi), here is Obi Wan Bonogi's average cards per kingdom -
Set Avg. Cards Per Kingdom
Prosperity 3.92
Seaside 1.32
Dominion 1.29
Intrigue 1.26
Hinterlands 0.76
Alchemy 0.75
Cornucopia 0.50
this led to him playing 58.7% (2502/4264) of his games as colony games. for perspective, isotropic averages 19.8% colony games.
it has been said that colony games tend to favor better players and engines (as opposed to BM variants) so checking the box for prosperity seems like a nice advantage for those sorts of players.
-
I don't know how much of an effect this is, but he USED to play colony games exclusively. Now, of course, he doesn't.
-
per council room (http://councilroom.com/player?player=Obi+Wan+Bonogi), here is Obi Wan Bonogi's average cards per kingdom -
Set Avg. Cards Per Kingdom
Prosperity 3.92
Seaside 1.32
Dominion 1.29
Intrigue 1.26
Hinterlands 0.76
Alchemy 0.75
Cornucopia 0.50
this led to him playing 58.7% (2502/4264) of his games as colony games. for perspective, isotropic averages 19.8% colony games.
it has been said that colony games tend to favor better players and engines (as opposed to BM variants) so checking the box for prosperity seems like a nice advantage for those sorts of players.
I've played Obi Wan a bunch, and I thought it was just my imagination that they seemed to be a lot of Colony games.
My "Effect With" Colony is -2.99, my worst card. No wonder I can't beat him!
-
I ran some numbers to satisfy my curiosity about how much difference the auto-match bias makes.
Chance of getting Colony with no auto-match bias: 16%
Chance of getting Colony if one player sets Prosperity bias: 49%
Chance of getting Colony if one player sets Prosperity bias and other player sets all boxes: 26%
(Note that your chance of getting Colony is the same as the expected proportion of cards that are from Prosperity.)
-
Wow, that is... quite a large effect.
I'll be checking all the boxes from now on. But really, the effects ought to work only if both players have the box checked for it to be truly fair.
-
blueblimp, what's the number if Obi Wan checks Prosperity and I check all non-Prosperity boxes?
-
blueblimp, what's the number if Obi Wan checks Prosperity and I check all non-Prosperity boxes?
Oh, good point, it should be the same as if boxes are unchecked. (The weights added by him and you cancel each other out.)
-
With that said, my nemesis is (was?) stef just baffled me game after game. I remember playing a 4 game set with him and lost 4 times in a row. stef was like lv 45ish then just disappeared, what happened? I'm currently 1-5 and would like to TRY and redeem myself.
Just played my first 3 games against him. He is indeed really good. And i'm not that generous with compliments...
-
I set my auto-match preference to +/-10 and have stayed within the same few levels for a few months now, so I feel like I have a lot of nemeses in the sense that there are a bunch of people I've played lots of games with. Everybody is friendly and fun to play with, and I could give plenty of different names here.
Most recently, mcmc has been an awesome frequent opponent, probably the nicest guy I've ever met on the internet and the player I'm most excited to see propose a match. He's risen up in level quickly since I first played him and is always an interesting opponent. We have very different play styles, which leads to some really cool discussion, and ultimately we run very even, trading wins often and staying close to an overall tie.
Eli_K is the guy I've played the most games with by far. I'm 54-41-2 there, but I feel like overall we're very evenly matched, and that eventually that gap will close. Mean Mr Mustard and I have played 50 games together and stand at 26-24, so I always know I'm in for a competitive match when I see him.
panda, ddubois and Tahtweasel stand out for me as players who I really have to be on top of my game against or I'm bound to get slaughtered by. Those are the Wandering Winder/Marin style matchups for me where I get overwhelmed and frequently schooled by big engines that end explosively or strategies that are simply much better than mine. Throw RomaNorgy in there too, and especially dghunter79, who is essentially my kryptonite. Winning against any of them is especially satisfying.
-
Gravedigging, but I'm now 3-19 against Chwhite, which is ridiculous. I mean, a level ~30 probably could go 3-19 against anyone in the top 5 if they knew how to play BM strategies... I don't have anywhere close to that terrible of a record against anyone else.
-
Right about now, I think we all share a common nemesis... Isotropic's motherboard!
-
Hodor Hodor HODOR
Its 0-4. >:(
-
I have a nemesis, but I can't recall his name because he's not forum active! :(