Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Game Reports => Help! => Topic started by: WanderingWinder on April 14, 2012, 07:23:47 pm
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Instead of logs, I give videos:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL53BF033760BCFC99&feature=edit_ok
That's over an hour of content. You don't have to watch it all at once.
Also, this guy frustrates the bleep out of me (yes, I self-censor (well, actually I just don't curse, but I do get frustrated)) mostly because I lose to him and am most always left with this... 'but how?' feeling... so Marin, don't take it so much personally, but for whatever reason, you just kill me all the time.
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I think having WW ask "why do I keep losing to this guy?" is a pretty damned high compliment.
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You might want to be a bit slower taking your turn. Sometimes it's very difficult to see what the opponent is buying before it scrolls of the top of the screen.
For game 9 you should have taken the worker's village instead of the last fishing village. Not sure it would have saved you though but it might have done.
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You could be a bit slower to frown upon his "poor play", just because he's not ending the game in the exact way that you would. Even "taking an outpost turn" to win on instead of winning outright is an entirely valid option, at least when you have 5 throned wharves to make sure you can't whiff. Complaining about your opponent not ending the game on the turn that he could have ended the game mere seconds before he does that exact thing just seems petulant.
Winning every game as fast as possible is not the goal ; winning every game is. It might not make a difference, but a bit of an attitude change never hurt.
The attitude difference might also be part of why he seems to be a much better engine player ; you're running a sprint to four(ish) provinces, while Marin is often sitting at the starting line building a racecar.
I only watched a few games, but that was the impression i got.
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In game 2, he committed to the engine right from the start with the Wishing Well opening. With so many good engine components at $4, the extra cycling from the Wishing Wells was probably better than Silver.
In the Saboteur game, yes he hit pretty much all of your TR's, but it had the potential to hit Duchy/SR. Both of which were detrimental to your score when he did hit them. With Ambassador, he was able to get constantly play the Saboteur for the greatest effect.
I guess that would be my biggest impression is that you so often open silver out of instinct or see Silk Road and immediately think that a Silk Road rush is necessary. Sometimes, opening with engine components can be the right move and sometimes in alternate VP games like SR, an engine can be built that can beat the rush.
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Three big things I see. One is that Marin takes advantage of cards that enable engines really well. Getting a Haggler in a Wharf deck to pick up Villages so he can chain Wharfs, getting an Outpost in a Wharf deck, etc. These moves make a huge difference when you're racing for a BM-X strategy and failing to adjust to a longer game when you see that he's going for an engine and you won't be able to close the game out before he's playing his whole deck every turn.
Second—in a number of the games, I don't see you having a clear strategy for how to end the game on piles. Even when it's obvious that he's not going to help you drain piles, you go for multiple expensive VP piles (e.g., Silk Roads and Duchies) and then can't close out the game. Third, and related, I see a lot of short term thinking. In one game, you go for Duchies over Gardens even though you have to know that Gardens are going to be worth at least as much as Duchies by the end, and as a result you don't get a favorable Gardens split.
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You could be a bit slower to frown upon his "poor play", just because he's not ending the game in the exact way that you would. Even "taking an outpost turn" to win on instead of winning outright is an entirely valid option, at least when you have 5 throned wharves to make sure you can't whiff. Complaining about your opponent not ending the game on the turn that he could have ended the game mere seconds before he does that exact thing just seems petulant.
Winning every game as fast as possible is not the goal ; winning every game is...
I don't know... I think I'd have to disagree with you here, rod (respectfully, of course). Yes, the goal of the game is to win. And to that end, the score is known by all, the winning conditions are known by all. At this level of play, there is an expectation that each player is watching the board with a bare minimum of skill to at least know what-and-how-many piles are running out.
Given all of that, NOT ending the game in victory when you are perfectly capable of doing so shows that a player is either missing something or being a bit silly. I think WW's frustration is not because of his attitude... I think is because prolonging the game after the point of victory is NECESSARILY a product of poor play (missing something) or poor form (silly).
Just my opinion, obviously YMMV.
If you're not ending the game and there is a possibility of the opponent coming from behind and winning, then you have taken a risk for absolutely no reward.
If you're not ending the game and there is NOT a possibility of the opponent coming from behind and winning, then you are being at best wasteful and at worst a showboat.
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...
(yes, I self-censor (well, actually I just don't curse...))
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I call bs -- I have mounds of video evidence that disproves this.
(lol Dominion jokes)
Second—in a number of the games, I don't see you having a clear strategy for how to end the game on piles. Even when it's obvious that he's not going to help you drain piles, you go for multiple expensive VP piles (e.g., Silk Roads and Duchies) and then can't close out the game. Third, and related, I see a lot of short term thinking. In one game, you go for Duchies over Gardens even though you have to know that Gardens are going to be worth at least as much as Duchies by the end, and as a result you don't get a favorable Gardens split.
WW, I have to second philosophyguy here. In game 6, when you bought Explorer (a card that I like more than most, I think) I was at first confused. Then I realized it must be some deep level 40 trick for ramping up your late-game Gardens strat. Then you were buying Duchies and I was back to confusion.
If you didn't have Gardens directly in mind when you made that Explorer purchase (actually I think it was a University-gain), then why didn't you first go for Ghost Ship? Attacking the engine builder would seem like a better way of slowing down his engine...
All in all, it looks like you were having an off day... there were a couple of simple mistakes that you made (noted by you in the video). I wouldn't sweat it too much.
And seriously, thanks a million for the videos. It probably can't be the best feeling posting a series of frustrating losses. We appreciate the sacrifice of time and effort, please keep up the good work! ;D
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I have to agree with the not prolonging the end of the game. I can understand WW's frustration quite well. When you're so far behind you know you cant win, especially after a few bad matches, watching a guy keep buying crap when you could be on your way to starting a new game is just a terrible experience. And really, the game isn't just about winning. It's about enjoyment. You want to get the best experience out of it, and to do that you need to foster a community which also wants to minimize the pain of others. Just put them out of their misery.
Also, WW, if you get the chance I think it would be very helpful if you posted the CR logs in the descriptions. Sometimes its a lot easier to go over the log quick than have to sift through the video looking for certain things. Though, no biggie.
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Also, WW, if you get the chance I think it would be very helpful if you posted the CR logs in the descriptions. Sometimes its a lot easier to go over the log quick than have to sift through the video looking for certain things. Though, no biggie.
100% agreed. That one line of text in the description would help us follow along with opponent's purchases and actions occurring during long chains, etc. Just a thought, no pressure.
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A reoccurring theme is that you go for BM Money or VP variants, he goes for engines. A LOT of these games were of the engine type (I've only seen the first 6 or so atm).
you're running a sprint to four(ish) provinces, while Marin is often sitting at the starting line building a racecar.
I think that's the best way to explain it. Even in the game 7 silk roads rush. If you spent another reshuffle building more parts to it (mainly moats, fishing villages), I think it would've worked out better. Then again hindsight is 20/20. The one with the wharf/throne room/haggler seem like an obvious engine board, but I do think that throne room/wharf connection at the start makes it easier for him. Without that, it is closer.
Also, WW, if you get the chance I think it would be very helpful if you posted the CR logs in the descriptions. Sometimes its a lot easier to go over the log quick than have to sift through the video looking for certain things. Though, no biggie.
100% agreed. That one line of text in the description would help us follow along with opponent's purchases and actions occurring during long chains, etc. Just a thought, no pressure.
Councilroom.com is open to everyone. We can help him out and post it in the comments of the youtube pages. It's probably the least we can do considering he's put up a lot of great videoes. Too lazy now since I've watched them but just sayin'.
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Councilroom.com is open to everyone. We can help him out and post it in the comments of the youtube pages. It's probably the least we can do considering he's put up a lot of great videoes. Too lazy now since I've watched them but just sayin'.
Oh now you're just spewing good ideas. Actually that never occurred to me. But yeah, it's pretty obvious thing to do.
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If you're not ending the game and there is a possibility of the opponent coming from behind and winning, then you have taken a risk for absolutely no reward.If you're not ending the game and there is NOT a possibility of the opponent coming from behind and winning, then you are being at best wasteful and at worst a showboat.
Just put them out of their misery.
The games I mentioned were games where:
1) He accuses his opponent of not ending the game, but his opponent has not yet finished his turn, and in fact DOES end the game on that very turn.
2) He accuses his opponent of not ending the game, when his opponent merely takes a free turn with outpost to rack up some points before buying out the last pile.
In neither case was there a risk, in one there was absolutely no justification for complaining, and in neither did the opponent prolong the game by even a single turn. At most, the second case prolonged the game by the twenty seconds that the last turn took, and given that it was an outpost turn, an argument could be made that he was merely playing out his actions, and I've yet to see someone complain about a person playing out his deck on the last turn when all he has to do is push the +coins button to buy out whatever pile is available. I FULLY agree with people ending the game ASAP, but I do not agree with WW's assessment of the two games in question: The games were over, and the games were ended promptly.
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Hmm. Maybe it would be worth getting embedded youtube videos to work in the forum?
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If you're not ending the game and there is a possibility of the opponent coming from behind and winning, then you have taken a risk for absolutely no reward.If you're not ending the game and there is NOT a possibility of the opponent coming from behind and winning, then you are being at best wasteful and at worst a showboat.
Just put them out of their misery.
The games I mentioned were games where:
1) He accuses his opponent of not ending the game, but his opponent has not yet finished his turn, and in fact DOES end the game on that very turn.
2) He accuses his opponent of not ending the game, when his opponent merely takes a free turn with outpost to rack up some points before buying out the last pile.
In neither case was there a risk, in one there was absolutely no justification for complaining, and in neither did the opponent prolong the game by even a single turn. At most, the second case prolonged the game by the twenty seconds that the last turn took, and given that it was an outpost turn, an argument could be made that he was merely playing out his actions, and I've yet to see someone complain about a person playing out his deck on the last turn when all he has to do is push the +coins button to buy out whatever pile is available. I FULLY agree with people ending the game ASAP, but I do not agree with WW's assessment of the two games in question: The games were over, and the games were ended promptly.
Lets not get carried away with the reaction when someone loses a couple more games to a nemesis. I am a different person when I lose, I'm sure we all are.
Also, if you buy out three piles and you play outpost, the game ends. So technically he did drag out the game longer. Unless that doesn't counts because its still 'his turn'? Meh, I don't think this is the place to be arguing morals. A lot of fun games to talk about.
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I understand the frustration as Marin plays very loose at times. But he's pretty good at engine building and you seem to prefer big money a little too often despite the presence of a decent engine. Also, you're both playing at lightning speed which is fun for both players because you get to play a lot of games in a short time, but maybe take your foot of the throttle sometimes?
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I have a feeling you're misplaying Remakes. In two games I saw you buying/gaining them far into the midgame while I only see it as an opener.
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In game 10, Marin buys Margrave over Goons early on, which you think of as an mistake. He is getting more Margraves while you ignore them until the game is basically over.
Consequence is, you are stuck with 3-card-hands the whole game while he is drawing big parts of his deck. I probably would have bought first Goons over Margrave too, but not doing so was the great winning move.
In game 9, you wonder how he managed to get the engine going while you didn't, with similar play. After turn 7, the decks are the same but one curse he has more. Afterwards, I don't understand your play. While he trashes a remake into a witch and buys a worker's village, you buy...another remake? Followed by a remake next turn, too? You really want every possible card draw and cycling with these trim decks and all the fishing villages. Consequently, he reshuffled on turn 9 and twice during turn 11 and 12, while you only reshuffled on turn 10 and 12, and you lose the curse war badly. I would have gotten a Council Room here, maybe even instead of a second witch.
If I needed to summarize these two games, I would say you underestimate the importance of card draw and cycling in these kind of games where it isn't as obvious, where even a single +3 card or some +2 and +1 cards really matter. How to trim the deck when you got a remake in hand, but no card draw to get to those coppers and curses?
In game 12, how can two watchtowers slow him down more than young witch slow down you if he trashes the curses? Watchtower played is at least 2 cards, even more when he apprentices copper, allowing him to topdecking nice cards. Young Witch is...2 cards.
I also don't understand why you upgrade an expand into a province and expand the province into a colony so early.
Indeed, he ends up winning the curse war and the game with a much more trim deck. Why did you opt for Provinces here?
Funny thing, I have the feeling that pretty much every time (late Familiar, Saboteurs, this Margrave, maybe even early Throne Room even with the risk that it might be drawn dead) you comment that one of his strategic moves seems to be a mistake/bad play, this move turns out to be part of why he is winning.
Furthermore, I got the impression that in engine games, you seem to buy the engine parts pretty randomly (like let's pick up this, and that). Is this true, or does it only look like it?
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Ok, some overall comments. I think my biggest problem is that I'm playing too quickly. Not in the sense that I'm missing what he's doing - if I do, that's where you see me scroll up, and it looks like I do that really quickly, but I see what he did, and that's enough. But what I mean is that I'm not thinking and planning enough, and the big thing is that I'm not adjusting to his strategies enough. Probably this is a consequence of playing way too much, and so going at a lightning speed all the time. I'm playing BM like I would against another BM player, and I think usually against his engines, I need to do more build up, and BM-playing isn't necessarily my problem. Of course, part of the issue is that going BM often IS my problem, and he's a top-notch engine builder. And actually, his unique skill, from my view, is the ability to prolong the games in order to give his engine time to be worth it. What else? Most of my disparaging comments are due to my own frustration; this is about as frustrated as I get, certainly the most frustrated I get over something like this game. Like, I actually think that he played the first game quite badly, and after this, a couple mistakes for sure that I can point out to you (throne room as first action, not ending the game when he could with a lead, which he did I think twice, maybe in the same game? Not that I blame him so much for the first one, it was actually sort of tricky, just I saw it while sitting there being tortured by his endless turns; the second one is the outpost thing, and yeah, it's idiotic to take an outpost turn when you can end game with a win in your normal turn, because maybe you won't be able to in your outpost turn, apart from it being just sort of a running up the score deal), but most of the time where I'm saying 'I don't like that' I mean 'I don't like that' and not 'I'm sure this is bad.' My big issue is that apparently I don't like some things that are really, really good.
Shark_Bait - yeah, this is an issue. Though I would like to point out that part of my strategy was predicated on guessing that he is going to hit my duchies or SR, and so I planned for this by over-greening a bit. Then he hits the TR and I'm left stuck in a bit of a rut. Also, hitting duchy or SR gives something back that's going to be a lot more useful than the copper.
philosophyguy - excellent! I must agree with you here. The gardens I actually miscounted for, and thought that I had like 10 fewer cards than I actually did. But not looking to end the game right is something that plagues me for sure. I will get to a big lead, and then I usually go for the most points, because most often, your best bet of insulating your lead is to just make it bigger, if you can't end the game immediately. But there are some cases, like here where he's building a mega engine, that that isn't true, and you need to forego bigger leads to look for ending the game, and I seem to be not so hot at that, at least I wasn't in this match.
paddyodoors - definitely not just an off day, this seems to happen every time I play the guy. I actually even gained rating points yesterday despite this thrashing, probably from knocking off AVeryHappyFish a couple times at the end of the day. Also, I did have gardens in mind when picking up that explorer.
About the CR logs, they should be up now (it's much easier to do them for a big string of games like this or a tourney series than for my random games I post, which I have to hunt for out of thousands of logs...), but they didn't exist when you guys were posting the comments :)
def, I'm not just picking stuff up randomly. BUT, I'm not at all the best at getting my components in the right order.
Rest of the stuff seems mostly game specific, which is going to mean - A New Post (and hopefully, A New Hope).
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Game 1: I have first turn advantage. And I know what I'm doing, using the woodcutter/smugglers to try to power a duchy/SR kind of strategy. I actually expect him to build an engine here from FV/Steward/woodcutter, maybe wishing well, possession, HoP. But I think he needs lots of FV to pull that off probably, which will give me time to pile out. As it turns out, he fights me seeming to me a little half-heartedly, for SR, loses that fight, and doesn't really know what he's doing with the develop and steward stuff, getting a HoP later when there's like no time left... not sure what he was going for really. And I close out rather comfortable.
Game 2: I expected I needed a lone silver (wasn't planning on getting more) to get up to $5 reliably for my margraves and festivals (don't know why I thought Festival should be so important here, farming village is probably just largely better). OTOH, I do get 4/4 which is not so great, and... basically he has his engine fully up and running turn 7. I don't think that was possible for me. So probably I didn't build right (caravan looks conspicuously bad) but with him nailing me every turn with that margrave, it's also basically impossible for me to catch up - he trashes down quite nicely with the upgrade, while my 3 card hands don't afford me that luxury. How do I build the engine here? Though I have a feeling that off the 4/4 turns 3 and 4, together with his first turn advantage and sizable skill at building these kinds of engines, I'm pretty toast anyway.
Game 3: Hmph. I actually like my strategy here. Maybe I shouldn't have sacrificed my economy quite so fast? But I don't need much more luck here to win this close game. Don't think I misplayed this too too much, though I'm sure I could have done a little better. Maybe I needed to take the cards on my last turn? I don't know, I was counting on his inability to make 8 AND 5, and I think he probably most often can't.
Game 4: This one really gets my goat. Yes, I should probably build an engine at some point here. On the other hand, you just don't buy TR as your first action, and man he seemed to go overboard at the end of the game, making it last about 5 minutes longer than it needed to.
Game 5: Eh, relatively well-played again, I think. A bit disappointed that I don't get a straight win here, as I don't really like oasis here, and I knew my deck was a good bit stronger (more golds) than his...
Game 6: I'm a bit slow to pick up fishing villages here, perhaps, though I don't think that's such a big deal. I actually think I was doing fine if I grab gardens over duchies when I should. Hmm
Comments on the second half later today.
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You are somewhat too dogmatical.
marin feels like he thinks more of his own rather follow some previously walked path.
Although he tried to convince me that double ambassador is almost always better than amb silver... which I think is false.
I'm also running bad against him, but sample size not big + i'm sure some of them were luckbox wins.
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Game 7: Another head-scratcher for me. I'd like to put it down to lucky saboteuring - best thing would be to hit silvers. But ok, he also played well. FV is a nice complement for ambassador, and just for whatever reason I stalled out hard. I think there's something more going on here, and I'm not sure what it is.
Game 8: I get gobs and gobs of luck. I think trying to use moat to defend is going to be a little weak here, like I say in the video, especially getting FIVE of them, but you know, it should still probably get close. We'd expect that I'd get one or two of those curses through still, though definitely not the bajillion I did.
Game 9: Can someone explain how I lose the curse war 8-2? Yes, I probably over-buy remake, but with so many FVs, I'm looking to get the 5-cost draw cards, which just never happens for me really until it's way too late.
Game 10: Here I'm distinctly outplayed. So the reason I don't like margrave is that it looks like an engine deck, and for engine decks, margrave attack lets you choose three out of 6, which is not THAT much worse than random $5, especially with the goons attack already coming in. However, there's more going on here. Double and treble goons are how this game is going to get won, and card draw gives you the best chance at that. But you know, it's hard for me to buy that margrave over the goons, because goons is really that important card to make it all work. Except, you know, I think Bazaar is really the super important card. If I take the time to win the bazaar war, then it's going to be really hard for him to get much chain off. And actually, if you notice, it's really close until he starts triple goons-ing, which is really hard for me to do (although sometimes, sometimes I still ought to be able to) without much draw and only having three card hands. So I think he's slightly lucky to always get the chain he needs after his 3 card hands, and I'm slightly unlucky with what I draw off my bazaars, but even so, I'm going to lose this 90% of the time, at least, being so outplayed.
Game 11: Well, I feel I got lucky and also first-turn. I know that goons into IGG is better than straight IGG, but man I don't hit $5 often. I don't actually like hitting the early province (I'd rather get a more evened-out draw), but I think I need to take it. And then I'm quite lucky to get the late one, which helps out a lot. Though I think my first turn and extra goons would have at least made it a game anyway.
Game 12: Another actually really close one. You guys notice I'm actually in the lead most of the way here? His deck's a lot stronger at the end, but I do not need so so much more luck to put me over the top. Also, his first turn helps. But the big thing is, I can't stand getting $8 so often in colony games. Now, I know I should be getting the expands over provinces more early on, this is a pretty significant effect. But I do think that sometimes, you're better off grabbing provinces than golds on 6. Just hard to tell when that is exactly. Hmm. Also probably a problem I have that I rage up a bit at the 8 draws and don't do what I know is usually that right play of buying the cheaper thing. Though upgrade and expand help out the buy-the-most-expensive-thing-you-can philosophy here.
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Game 9: Can someone explain how I lose the curse war 8-2?
I think I did that, though I accidentally mislabeled my comments as belonging to game 8, but I changed that now.
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Game 7: Another head-scratcher for me. I'd like to put it down to lucky saboteuring - best thing would be to hit silvers. But ok, he also played well. FV is a nice complement for ambassador, and just for whatever reason I stalled out hard. I think there's something more going on here, and I'm not sure what it is.
Game 9: Can someone explain how I lose the curse war 8-2? Yes, I probably over-buy remake, but with so many FVs, I'm looking to get the 5-cost draw cards, which just never happens for me really until it's way too late.
I think game 7 is an instance where you fail to adjust to your opponent. I think moat is a lot better here than normal. Sure we cannot predict the saboteur (although with silk roads, it's not that far fetched), but it would be great to shield off ambassadors. You grab all these fishing villages with no actual action to play with, the moat seems pretty ideal (definitely 1 early, and grab more with your hypothetical trade routes +buys)
Game 9: essentially buying non-stop remakes was your downfall. The not getting witch definitely hurt with his two remakes that shuffle, but you clog your deck with remake/fishing village which doesn't allow you to expand your hand size (which ideally remake wants to trash the correct things). Also the turn where you buy your first province, as if you were comfortably in the lead? Probably should've remaked coppers and bought a council room (I mean were you really nervous that the extra card would help him?) The way I see it was at the game had three stages: remake/trashing, cursing, then greening. He focuses by buying a second witch with his thin deck, you kinda jump the second step altogether hoping that one witch was enough. 8-2 might be a bit much, but 7-3 seems reasonable.
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Game 7: Another head-scratcher for me. I'd like to put it down to lucky saboteuring - best thing would be to hit silvers. But ok, he also played well. FV is a nice complement for ambassador, and just for whatever reason I stalled out hard. I think there's something more going on here, and I'm not sure what it is.
Game 9: Can someone explain how I lose the curse war 8-2? Yes, I probably over-buy remake, but with so many FVs, I'm looking to get the 5-cost draw cards, which just never happens for me really until it's way too late.
I think game 7 is an instance where you fail to adjust to your opponent. I think moat is a lot better here than normal. Sure we cannot predict the saboteur (although with silk roads, it's not that far fetched), but it would be great to shield off ambassadors. You grab all these fishing villages with no actual action to play with, the moat seems pretty ideal (definitely 1 early, and grab more with your hypothetical trade routes +buys)
So here's one of my big problems. I wanted to buy more moats. I did. But when to do it? I was planning on doing it with those trade route buys - this did not happen. And then do I need moat more than the VP cards, or more than the money at $3? Maybe I do, really, but it's hard for me to think that. And actually, you talk about blocking the ambassadors. But I WANT the coppers and estates, the curses he doesn't do until later, I won't be able to block them reliably, and by then, do they really hurt THAT much? Maybe so, but I think that's mostly because he's killed any economy I have to end the game. But the FVs were with the intention of using the actions on moats and trade routes, yes.
Game 9: essentially buying non-stop remakes was your downfall. The not getting witch definitely hurt with his two remakes that shuffle, but you clog your deck with remake/fishing village which doesn't allow you to expand your hand size (which ideally remake wants to trash the correct things). Also the turn where you buy your first province, as if you were comfortably in the lead? Probably should've remaked coppers and bought a council room (I mean were you really nervous that the extra card would help him?) The way I see it was at the game had three stages: remake/trashing, cursing, then greening. He focuses by buying a second witch and a thin deck, you kinda jump the step altogether hoping that one witch was enough. 8-2 might be a bit much, but 7-3 seems reasonable.
Yeah, but what do I buy instead? I don't understand your last comment, as I get three witches? My instinct was that I needed more card draw, and this is in fact why I got the remakes, to remake them into the 5s. I never get the chance for buying more 5s really, though you're right about the province. But actually the whole point of the province buy, which is exactly what I say in the video, and what you see me do very soon after in the log, is remake it into a platinum. So it's not at all about giving me a safe lead. Now, maybe you're right, and I should trash down and get draw. But I do actually think those cards are helping him at that point, yes.
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Game 7:Yeah I think early moat is better than an additional fishing village. It does facilitate as some sort of draw as you have oodles of fishing villages.
Game 9: I forgot about the platinum, but even then that's part of the problem. Platinum doesn't do you much good with no +buy firstly and taking up another spot where one witch is your only card draw with oodles of fishing villages/remake. Plus it took you two shuffles to get to it. I just don't think the money was all that important at that stage, attacking was.
$4 should probably be worker's village.
If council room isn't your type of card there (I think it's worth it to make use of your remakes properly and play witch more often), then witch on that province turn is still good.
Oh I know you have 3 witches to his two, but he gets two much faster, and with his deck thinner, he's able to play them SO much more and he's got a council room too.
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Game 9: Can someone explain how I lose the curse war 8-2? Yes, I probably over-buy remake, but with so many FVs, I'm looking to get the 5-cost draw cards, which just never happens for me really until it's way too late.
You filled your deck with fishing villages and remakes that ate up your hand each turn. The mid game needed a faster deck with faster cycling from witches and council rooms, creating a large hand size with choice to apply remake/expand without killing spending. That's what Marin engineered and that's why I said you should have taken more worker's villages. Plus one card is better than plus one coin in a deck where your worst card is silver or better. As it turned out the witch was the very last card of your deck one turn; unlucky but only possible because you filled the deck with slow cycling cards like fishing villages and remakes.
Generally I think you were taking too many slow cards, silvers and fishing villages, instead of cycling and speed for engines. Game 2 is the prime example where he got slightly better draws on turns 3 and 4 but was able to accelerate much faster with a dynamic deck. There's a reason why silver has the second highest "win without" rate in the council room stats.
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Game 9: Can someone explain how I lose the curse war 8-2? Yes, I probably over-buy remake, but with so many FVs, I'm looking to get the 5-cost draw cards, which just never happens for me really until it's way too late.
Get council room in 2nd shuffle and stop buying fishing village - remake, which is not the best combo...
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Game 9: Can someone explain how I lose the curse war 8-2? Yes, I probably over-buy remake, but with so many FVs, I'm looking to get the 5-cost draw cards, which just never happens for me really until it's way too late.
Get council room in 2nd shuffle and stop buying fishing village - remake, which is not the best combo...
So you're telling me that on turn 6, I should have bought COUNCIL ROOM and not play the remake?
Everyone: I understand that you're telling me mostly to NOT do X, but really what I need is do Y instead. And more specifically than "buy draw cards". Because let me tell you, I knew I needed to do that, I just didn't do it the right way apparently. So clearly, my problem is mostly that I don't know how to get that done here. And I still don't. Tell me "buy this here instead of that), etc. etc. So far the only specific advice that fits this is ARTjoMS's idea to buy the council room, which I'm leery of, but hey, I s'pose it might be right - there's definitely at least some logic to it - and the 'buy worker's villages' advice. The WVs probably help a little, but I find it hard to think that will overcome the difference. Are you guys telling me that it will?
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Re Game 9: I think you're ok Remaking on turn 6, but turn 7 I would pass on the Remake in favor of the Council Room (or another Witch). After turn 6 you've cleared out 4 of your starting cards, but the only draw you have is from the one Witch. If you trash Coppers on turn 7, you'll need a lot of luck to draw your Remakes (plural!) with anything worth trashing/upgrading. If you get more drawing power on turn 7 instead, you'll have a much better chance of lining up your Remakes with your remaining starting cards.
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I'm thinking about the Wharf game where he grabbed the early Throne Rooms (Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ba-V8uTTqk ; Councilroom link: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120414-143416-fa0d6fe6.html). Let's start by stipulating that he got extremely lucky to have his Throne Room collide with the Wharf immediately, and that had a big impact on the game.
Having said that—I'm not sure it's a totally idiotic play. Whether it's optimal is another question, but it's not entirely illogical. At 4, there's only a couple of options. Any of the action cards—Village, Bishop, and TR—run the risk of being dead draws with the Wharf. He could go for a Potion, but at this point he isn't drawing his whole deck and so the Potion might collide with another important buy opportunity (like a Haggler). If he were consistently drawing $8 the Potion might make sense because he could buy Familiar with a $5, but not yet. The other option is Silver, but he doesn't really need more Treasure yet—he can hit $5 consistently in the next shuffle and the $5 cards are far more important at this point than the increased odds of hitting $6. So, a Throne Room is a purchase that is probably going to be useless this shuffle but will be extremely useful in the next shuffle, when he's got Wharfs and Hagglers aplenty to target. The only other choice that makes sense is Village, and a) Village is only useful if he draws it alongside Wharf as well, so it runs the same risks as TR in the next shuffle, and b) it has far less upside than TR if he does get lucky. Given that he'll be able to pick up tons of Villages with Hagglers, whereas he can't get Throne Rooms with Haggler after purchasing a $5 card, I think there's a case to be made for the Throne Room move.
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Game 9: Can someone explain how I lose the curse war 8-2? Yes, I probably over-buy remake, but with so many FVs, I'm looking to get the 5-cost draw cards, which just never happens for me really until it's way too late.
Get council room in 2nd shuffle and stop buying fishing village - remake, which is not the best combo...
So you're telling me that on turn 6, I should have bought COUNCIL ROOM and not play the remake?
Actually I meant 2nd shuffle where you bought witch instead. It is all about tempo in this stage and council room is the only card that gives you it. Then go and pick up some witches. What i tried to say is that you still have 7 coppers and an estate in your deck and you want to play remake as often as possible. If you get that council room+remake turn you can actually remake your trash and buy something useful.
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I'm no where near the level that you're at but I think one problem I see is that you undervalue card draw when you're playing an engine. I noticed this in game 10 and 12.
Specifically in game 10 warehouse is gonna give you the early sift reach and Margrave is gonna give you the card draw to recover from the hand size attacks to get multiple bazaar/goons plays since your both going to be playing with 3 card hands all game. I also don't like the third remake you purchased as it's a terminal collision that shrinks your hand when the game is about to take off with the attacks every turn.
EDIT: Of course you yourself noticed this in the videos so I don't know how helpful this is
Just my 2 cents
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Having watched the majority of WW's videos, I think he has a small leak overbuying terminals. It's often correct to buy multiple terminals because the advantage they give you will outweigh the cost of collision. However there's always a treshold where too many terminals will hurt you more than help and I have a feeling WW sometimes crosses that line and should buy a Silver instead of yet another of that "insert power $5 card".
I can't prove this with numbers, just a feeling I often get watching his videos.
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There is no such thing as overbuying terminals, only underbuying Villages. ;)
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There is no such thing as overbuying terminals, only underbuying Villages. ;)
I know this is meant to be a joke, but this is often the feeling I get when playing against Marin.
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There is no such thing as overbuying terminals, only underbuying Villages. ;)
Where's the -1 button? :D
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Game 10: Marin has $8 and two buys from goons. He buys a Margrave and declines to buy a silver even though it is worth a VP for him. He has 3 silvers in his deck already and that's plenty for him. WW has 7 silvers in his deck. Marin's slimmer deck allows him to cycle through his deck to play triple goons and win.
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Played a game (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120516-024608-add24324.html) yesterday against Marin. He went for a silly Festival/Moat engine while I went for a more standard Alchemist deck. All was going more or less according to plan and then my 2 Potions decide to hide on the bottom of my deck turn 16. I completely tilted and trashed them in the next turn which very likely cost me the (easy) game.
I guess he really has some kind of voodoo power :)
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Played a game (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120516-024608-add24324.html) yesterday against Marin. He went for a silly Festival/Moat engine while I went for a more standard Alchemist deck. All was going more or less according to plan and then my 2 Potions decide to hide on the bottom of my deck turn 16. I completely tilted and trashed them in the next turn which very likely cost me the (easy) game.
I guess he really has some kind of voodoo power :)
The way I read the start of the game, Marin adapted well to 'awkward' draws (T3 would you have bought potion with 5$?, T4 he does not trigger reschuffle to not skip his upgrade and moat). I agree that alchemist is the stronger engine, but how would you have reacted to Marin's hands? I think he just wanted to add festivals/moats to an alchemist deck that was trailing behind, because his initial draw did not favor him going head-first into alchemist arms-race. Also, alchemist does help moats connect with festivals, making it very likely that each festival/moat is basically a market. A plethora of festivals allows him to squeeze out every single dollar out of each hand (Your $/hand graphs are identical up to T16, and you don't use all of it). He ended up losing the alchemist race badly (T11 maybe trash silver=>potion instead of copper?) but his deck had a lot more money in total, with all those virtual markets and the the two plats. This gave him an edge in the greening phase. Now of course, the potion draws on your side did not help, and you probably had a higher chance of winning (imo, mostly caused by the first reschuffle) in the 'average' outcome.
meh, maybe I'm just irked by the fact that a top player actually thinks a 1-card strategy is fundamentally better than a 3 card one. I can't say for sure what Marin's plays did to his winning probability (in both possible directions), but he definitely tried to adapt and squeeze out what he could.
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meh, maybe I'm just irked by the fact that a top player actually thinks a 1-card strategy is fundamentally better than a 3 card one. I can't say for sure what Marin's plays did to his winning probability (in both possible directions), but he definitely tried to adapt and squeeze out what he could.
I don't know why that irks you. It's very often true. BM Wharf is better than thief-transmute-counting house. Now, the three cards here actually have some synergy to work together. But it look at festival-moat. It gives you... 2 money, no net cards, no net actions, a buy. Alchemist gives you a card, no money, no buys. So the festival moat is a little better, except... it's a little harder to get? And more importantly, you need to draw them together. Not 100% sure which is 'right'.
By the way, it seems to me that one of Marin's best skills is coming up with exotic combinations that make you say "WHAT?" but which aren't actually bad at all. And always engines.
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Also, alchemist does help moats connect with festivals, making it very likely that each festival/moat is basically a market.
Not only were his Festivals and Moats effectively Markets (well, the combo gives half as many Buys as Markets, but there wasn't a need here for more than 3 buys in any given turn), but they were Markets where every other "Market" cost only $2. With Festival's natural +Buy, it was simple for Marin to get what was effectively $10 worth of "Markets" with only $7, by buying Festival/Moat - something he does no less than 4 times over the course of the game.
Moat gets a bad rap usually, but it has one fairly unique trait: It is one of the only hand-size-increasers that costs only $2. (The others, of course, being Courtyard and Crossroads.) Festival is also fairly unique (and powerful) in that it gives +2 Actions and +$2; a combo that no other card can reproduce without self-trashing (Mining Village) or luck (Tribute). Festival's weakness is its lack of draw. Moat's weakness is that it is just not that powerful. But Festival's +Buy makes it easy to pick up Moats (because they are so cheap) without slowing down Festival acquisition; and Moat's +2 Cards mitigates Festival's weakness.
Another way of looking at it: Festival/Moat together is functionally equivalent to a Grand Market. The drawbacks are that (1) you need to draw them together, and (2) to buy them in one turn, you need $7 and 2 buys, instead of $6. The benefits are that (1) you can buy them with Coppers; and (2) you can, if needed, buy the pieces of the combo separately on a less-than-$7 turn. If there's some way to mitigate drawback #1 - and here there was (i.e., light trashing) - the combo looks pretty solid, as once it gets going it makes it much easier to buy more "pseudo Grand Markets" (Festival/Moat combo buys). Just like Grand Market itself.
I think the key lesson from this game is that Festival/Moat is less silly than it seems.
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meh, maybe I'm just irked by the fact that a top player actually thinks a 1-card strategy is fundamentally better than a 3 card one. I can't say for sure what Marin's plays did to his winning probability (in both possible directions), but he definitely tried to adapt and squeeze out what he could.
I don't know why that irks you. It's very often true. BM Wharf is better than thief-transmute-counting house. Now, the three cards here actually have some synergy to work together. But it look at festival-moat. It gives you... 2 money, no net cards, no net actions, a buy. Alchemist gives you a card, no money, no buys. So the festival moat is a little better, except... it's a little harder to get? And more importantly, you need to draw them together. Not 100% sure which is 'right'.
By the way, it seems to me that one of Marin's best skills is coming up with exotic combinations that make you say "WHAT?" but which aren't actually bad at all. And always engines.
Oh, I agree, most kingdoms favor streamlined strategies. Quite often, the best strategy is a well-known 2-card strategy, though just as often, it's one of the best strategy, and just happens to be more often rehearsed. I am still unsure whether Veto helps or hinders the phenomenon.
I just think that, if the positions had been reversed and Geronimo had had Marin's initial draw and gone alchemist with a silver down, the game would not have been worth posting.
I completely agree with the festival/moat vs alchemist analysis. festival/moat is a bit better than alchemist (also cheaper and makes you use up every single drop of money), but alchemist has definitely the more stable average scenario. On the flip side, it has a lot more lower tail, as shown in the game. Difficult call, and interesting game.
edit: @Voltgoss: I still wouldn't play festival/moat without upgrade/alchemists to support it ;D.
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edit: @Voltgoss: I still wouldn't play festival/moat without upgrade/alchemists to support it ;D.
I agree re: Upgrade, or at least SOME method of light trashing (which I mentioned in my post), but I'm not sure Alchemist was really necessary for Marin. Marin had $5 on the turn he bought Potion; I'm wondering if Royal Seal would have been a better option. When you're repeatedly buying a two-card combo, the ability to topdeck it on purchase becomes very handy; and when greening in the endgame, you'd much rather one of your treasures be a functional Silver rather than a functional nothing.
I note that if Marin's Potion buy were a Royal Seal, he'd have been able to buy/topdeck Festival/Moat on turn 8 (when he bought his first Alchemist). And with that extra +$2 in turn 9, he could have bought his first Platinum that turn (and still bought a Platinum on turn 10 as well).
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I think the key lesson from this game is that Festival/Moat is less silly than it seems.
wait what
I remember playing a game in an IRL tournament where I picked a strategy using Labs and Markets against someone else whose strategy was a Festival/Courtyard drawing engine (which is ever so slightly better than Moat) and completely crushed the guy. Chapel was present in the kingdom for trashing to help Festival and Courtyard collide early on.
We're giving Festival/Moat way too much credit here. It's like thinking that action-heavy strategies that are also dependent on handsize complement well with Inn. It just doesn't work nearly as well in practice as it does in theory.
Now, sure, when you have 9 Festivals and 5 Moats, of course you're in a good spot, but I wouldn't attribute that to Festival/Moat being a good strategy as opposed to the fact that when you have a critical mass of mediocre cards that combo together, you're going to pull something out of your ass.
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Apparently Marin's voodoo powers extend outside of isotropic... Festival/Watchtower, now there's an engine, Festival/Moat is just ... spinning your wheels...
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Apparently Marin's voodoo powers extend outside of isotropic... Festival/Watchtower, now there's an engine, Festival/Moat is just ... spinning your wheels...
I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying it's not as bad as you think.
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Apparently Marin's voodoo powers extend outside of isotropic... Festival/Watchtower, now there's an engine, Festival/Moat is just ... spinning your wheels...
You have 6 alchemists. That means you start with a 12 card hand. You have 20$ total in your deck, spread over 30 cards (25 on T16). That means that, without other drawers, your average alchemist hand will be 10$ (12$ on T16) if you keep up the loop (which is not guaranteed with 12cards/24).
Marin has 48$ over 40 cards (30 on T16), of which 11 are 'cantrips' (assuming moat/festival pair as 2 markets) and 3 labs. That means just a 10$ hand on average (13$ on T16).
So as long as your loop does not break, you have an edge. The moment it breaks, he has an edge. Marin doesn't need a loop to function, though the alchemist bonus can sometimes provide a boost.
So he has limited downside, you have limited upside. Non-linear bets are hard to value, and going for the 'typical' scenario tricky. The simulator can probably tell you what the probability of your loop collapsing is.
My quick computation is 17/19 * 16/18 *... *6/8 = 0.123 for not drawing 2 potions amongst the 19 non-alchemist cards, assuming you play all 6 alchemists. The half-life of your loop is around 5 turns.
Your turn 16 had a probability of roughly 20% to happen at exactly that turn, given the initial hand.
I agree moat/festival is no engine. But then, neither are 6 alchemists with one plat in a 25 card deck. The way I visualize this, your probability distribution has some probability p of producing a steady flow of money, and q of fizzling (because of low moneyness). His just produces on average 10ish dollars a turn, with more 'gaussian' swings around this mean. His variance is high, but because of the number of buys he has he can make more out of the higher numbers (though not hitting 11/8 will hurt).
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Another way of looking at it: Festival/Moat together is functionally equivalent to a Grand Market.
This is a good analogy. Festival/Moat is not an engine. It's a Grand Market that sometimes doesn't work (if the festival/moat count in your draw is unbalanced).
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It's still another example game where Geronimoo buys too many treasures (one extra gold that should have been an upgrade) and Marin sticks to his engine concept for a win, even though he's actually making a very meagre engine.
I've had a play around with Geronimoo's game a little and the festival/moat engine can be strong in an unusual way. If you try to thin out the alchemist deck using upgrades you still get left with annoying silvers that clog things up. You can however upgrade/remodel them to festivals and then add moats to draw the whole deck. There are all sorts of unusual tricks you can pull off once you can draw your whole deck here too.
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Played another several with Marin yesterday. Didn't video, so I'm going off the logs. Here we go:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120519-125042-da087f46.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120519-125603-2bb4090e.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120519-130449-743dbe8d.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120519-130728-160810bf.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120519-131339-f639ab00.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120519-131946-a424239a.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120519-133315-d9cb29f5.html
Game 1: I go for the strong and respectable courtyard/BM. He goes for an engine with ambassador. Because KC is present, and there are some nice cards (bridge, market, grand market, outpost... even bishop) in the black market, he can crush me terribly. Without the BM help, or without the KC, or maybe even without lab, it'd be good, but alas. Definitely outplayed badly here.
Game 2: He goes HT/Gardens, which I don't think is all that great. I go monument/BM, snagging a couple gardens, and an HT or two down the line. Note how I play differently here than I would in a mirror, going for more cash build-up. Also the expand, which is really important to help me end the game quickly enough. He's very creative with HoP and some vineyards out the back door, but I win fairly easily.
Game 3: The big time luck begins. Mountebank, KC, City, Lab, monument. Well, I'd play for a big action chain here, but pumping so much stuff with the mountebank... and getting hit with it. I really really dislike his outpost here for the same reason (by the way, if you notice, outpost comes up a LOT in these games, and he loves it). So, but the big thing is, I go for this pretty big lead, and then on my last turn, grab a city, looking to end the game. Well, maybe I should have taken a duchy? But he's somehow able to pull enough stuff together to get the whole UCS with multiple KC-KCs and swindling just enough stuff.... to win by 3 points after buying everything. Sad day.
Game 4: More luck. At the beginning of the next game, he marvels as to how I haven't complained to him about it, actually. Anyway, a Fool's Gold kind of mirror. I win the split, build up a nicer deck, with council room sooner, have a lead the whole game, and... get JUST stuck at the end, and he takes it by a point. Well, I don't actually think this is that terrible, luck-wise, but it felt pretty bad at the time. Last game was worse.
Game 5: And more. I get a turn 1 minion, then get stuck big time on 4s. He slows down to win the minion split 6-4 (which was pretty lucky for me, actually). But I really don't like his turn 7 outpost. This should have been a minion. If you get a really big split on the minions, outpost can be nice. But you want to win that split first. As it is, one of minion's biggest problems is that it can really stall out. The outpost just makes this worse. This actually probably really let me stay in the game. Then I pick up a merchant ship after the minions run out, and it falls pretty well after that, the luck turns, and I steal a five point win. Though if he gets even $2 on his last turn, he buys the last estate to win. I can't do the same, because he wins tie-break. So pretty lucky at the end.
Game 6: An IGG match-up with masquerade, Border Village, and Goons. I'm not too sure about how much he's pounding Border Village ->IGG early on, and I think I had a pretty good winning chance the whole game, but he is able to make off with two provinces, which puts me in a bad hole. My terminals also have a bad habit of misbehaving here.
Game 7: This one, I have to give to him, as genius play. I'm actually still not sure whether a slightly more optimized version of my plan should beat him on average, but probably not. And even if it's close, which it probably should be, it's amazing what he does. So I play courtyard/BM. Which is strong, by the way. I don't really see any engine potential here, despite KC. I mean, really, what are you KC'ing? But he does it. Big KC chains with courtyard, native village, a spice merchant, a trade route, and nomad camps. Oh, and an outpost again. Yeah, nomad camp is the big idea here. Now, I'd sort of thought about this - it's the only engine possible - but figured it would be really inconsistent. But here's the beauty. You use courtyard and native village to get you a haven effect, greatly mitigating the chance he comes up empty. Still, turn 17 I thought I had him dead cold. Then not-quite-a-colony, and... BOOM! In one turn, plus its outposted counterpart, he scores... 75 points! Simply an incredible game.
Edit: added missing log
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You are missing the IGG game 6 log btw.
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You are missing the IGG game 6 log btw.
Thanks. Fixed.
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Moral of game 7: If you let your opponent get Nine KCs, draw, actions with +buy.. before you get half the VP total, you're going to have a bad time. >.>
Also, wow. That is the only time I will ever see Three super-action-stars and two more mega-action-stars.
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Game 7: This one, I have to give to him, as genius play. I'm actually still not sure whether a slightly more optimized version of my plan should beat him on average, but probably not. And even if it's close, which it probably should be, it's amazing what he does. So I play courtyard/BM. Which is strong, by the way. I don't really see any engine potential here, despite KC. I mean, really, what are you KC'ing? But he does it. Big KC chains with courtyard, native village, a spice merchant, a trade route, and nomad camps. Oh, and an outpost again. Yeah, nomad camp is the big idea here. Now, I'd sort of thought about this - it's the only engine possible - but figured it would be really inconsistent. But here's the beauty. You use courtyard and native village to get you a haven effect, greatly mitigating the chance he comes up empty. Still, turn 17 I thought I had him dead cold. Then not-quite-a-colony, and... BOOM! In one turn, plus its outposted counterpart, he scores... 75 points! Simply an incredible game.
From my experience, KC is not ignorable if there's a drawing card in conjunction with +buys, nor if there are any cards that are just a lot better when tripled. I find that there's very few boards where KC can be passed up without a significant risk of giving up the game.