Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Donald X. on December 16, 2022, 03:00:06 am
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You've seen all the themes; here then are just some cards I want to show off.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946677362215518218/1053217431767744562/plunder_friday1.PNG)
Taskmaster is a tricky village. It can be there for you turn after turn, if you keep working on those $5's.
King's Cache is the King's Court for Treasures that you never knew you needed.
First Mate is a tricky draw-to-X card. It can be a big village and draw a bunch of cards, or not do much at all.
Shaman is the inverse Cathedral. This game, the junk will keep coming; you will have to figure out something there.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946677362215518218/1053217511618904114/plunder_friday2.PNG)
Journey is an exotic extra turn, where you won't get to use the cards from this turn on that turn. And it messes with stuff like Swamp Shacks.
Cursed gets Loots into the Traits; some card this game will come with two more cards. Yes now you will have to be clearer as to what you mean when you refer to a Cursed Village. You can also have a Cursed Cursed Village or a Cursed Blessed Village.
And Patient, which waited its turn, makes a card easy to play, if you're willing to wait for it.
That's 20 cards, 15 landscapes, and 15 Loots, from this monstrous expansion. Which we currently expect on Monday online, and around Monday in physical form.
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Imagine Swindling someone’s Silver into a Cursed Experiment (though the 2 Loots somewhat make up for the double-cursing). Or buying Messenger and giving everyone a Cursed Port, which comes with a second Port, 2 Curses, and 2 Loots.
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Taskmaster looks slightly weaker than Fishing Village, unless you achieve super-consistency concerning gaining $5s. But Fishing Village is pretty strong anyway and Taskmaster is less automatic and thus more interesting.
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Shaman is the new Ambassador
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I needed a moment to get there on Taskmaster, at first glance I thought it was a strictly worse Fishing Village. I don't think it's obvious from the text that it can stay out multiple turns.
I think I will prefer Shaman to Ambassador, as far as fun is concerned.
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Just launched into the game not having seen this... got Pious Siren + Shaman. Absolutely hilarious.
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Just launched into the game not having seen this... got Pious Siren + Shaman. Absolutely hilarious.
The older Donald gets, the sicker his mind ;D
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Taskmaster in a Duke Game ;)
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I think Taskmaster is the first time we've seen the phrasing of "repeat this ability" on a Dominion card. Is there a reason it's not just "at the start of your next turn, play this again."?
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I think Journey might have a shot at most beginner-friendly extra turn. Most of the extra-turn features have weird drawbacks like limiting card plays that less-hardcore fans will have a tough time remembering, much less making good use of, but just leaving all of the cards you can’t use out of your deck anyways will automatically keep the restriction in mind - you can’t draw what isn’t in your deck, after all.
On top of that, newbies never draw deck anyways, so a Journey turn will usually be as good as a regular turn for them.
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Shaman finally lets us open $4-$3-Zombie-Zombie.
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Shaman finally lets us open $4-$3-Zombie-Zombie.
(https://i.imgur.com/0dTyrW7.png)
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I think Taskmaster is the first time we've seen the phrasing of "repeat this ability" on a Dominion card. Is there a reason it's not just "at the start of your next turn, play this again."?
To keep it from being the first card played for the purposes of Landing Party.
I think that a better wording would be:
(https://i.imgur.com/QglgA45.png)
At the start of each of your turns while this is in play:
+1 Action
+$1
If you end your turn without gaining a card costing up to $5, discard this from play.
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I think Taskmaster is the first time we've seen the phrasing of "repeat this ability" on a Dominion card. Is there a reason it's not just "at the start of your next turn, play this again."?
To keep it from being the first card played for the purposes of Landing Party.
I think that a better wording would be:
(https://i.imgur.com/EehPwLf.png)
At the start of each of your turns while this is in play:
+1 Action
+$1
If you end your turn without gaining a card costing up to $5, discard this from play.
This wording is no good because it would mean Taskmaster is always discarded at the end of your turn (there is no future effect that it needs to remain in play for).
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I think Journey might have a shot at most beginner-friendly extra turn.
I get what you're saying about it being simple with just playing an extra regular turn, but there are tons of "this turn" cards that will confuse newbies why they don't work. Like if you played a Priest on your initial turn, it's still sitting right there in play, but it's not going to give you money for trashing on your extra turn like a newbie might expect.
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I think Taskmaster is the first time we've seen the phrasing of "repeat this ability" on a Dominion card. Is there a reason it's not just "at the start of your next turn, play this again."?
To keep it from being the first card played for the purposes of Landing Party.
I think that a better wording would be:
(https://i.imgur.com/EehPwLf.png)
At the start of each of your turns while this is in play:
+1 Action
+$1
If you end your turn without gaining a card costing up to $5, discard this from play.
This wording is no good because it would mean Taskmaster is always discarded at the end of your turn (there is no future effect that it needs to remain in play for).
Oh whoops I meant to write "for the rest of the game" not "while this is in play"
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Wouldn't "for the rest of the game" still be in effect even if you later discarded it? Kinda like if you Procession a Hireling -- you still get the draw even though it's not in play.
Edit: bad example, Procession is non-duration these days. Still, you get the idea.
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Shaman is going to have some weird effects with trashing attacks and trash for benefit. Also cards like Pillage will be really weird. I play a Pillage, it self-trashes, then my opponent gains it ...
If Feast were still in the game, that would be a really weird interaction too
New cursing attack: Buy a Curse with a Watchtower in hand in a game with Shaman ...
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Cathedral + Shaman would be a weird combination. If both players have Cathedral, and there's nothing sending good stuff to the trash like trashing attacks, then Shaman is basically cancelling out Cathedral, so there wouldn't be much point in buying it
On the other hand, if your opponent buys Cathedral, then you pretty much have to follow suit, otherwise all their trash is going to end up in your deck
Trash for benefit + anything giving you an extra turn will be really good in a Shaman game, letting you get back the card you trashed on your regular turn in your extra turn
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I'm really surprised King's Cache is able to cost $7 without any extra abilities while Tiara needs a buy and topdecking to cost the same as Throne Room.
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I'm really surprised King's Cache is able to cost $7 without any extra abilities while Tiara needs a buy and topdecking to cost the same as Throne Room.
Well, it's easy for it to be a net +$6, so in a lot of games it'll already be more valuable than Platinum, as long as you've also bought some Golds. And in games with things like Bank it could get really ridiculous
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Also cards like Pillage will be really weird. I play a Pillage, it self-trashes, then my opponent gains it ...
That’s hilarious. Can’t wait to play that exact kingdom.
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I'm really surprised King's Cache is able to cost $7 without any extra abilities while Tiara needs a buy and topdecking to cost the same as Throne Room.
Although I'm not an expert, my take is this: King's Cache is a reasonable $7 card. King's Court is a crazy-strong $7 card. It's not King's Cache that's the outlier here.
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I'm really surprised King's Cache is able to cost $7 without any extra abilities while Tiara needs a buy and topdecking to cost the same as Throne Room.
Although I'm not an expert, my take is this: King's Cache is a reasonable $7 card. King's Court is a crazy-strong $7 card. It's not King's Cache that's the outlier here.
I would have to disagree with you. You are an expert.
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I think Taskmaster is the first time we've seen the phrasing of "repeat this ability" on a Dominion card. Is there a reason it's not just "at the start of your next turn, play this again."?
Among other reasons, it would trigger the Adventures tokens (and maybe Traits, if any give an on-play bonus) each time.
I think Journey might have a shot at most beginner-friendly extra turn.
I get what you're saying about it being simple with just playing an extra regular turn, but there are tons of "this turn" cards that will confuse newbies why they don't work. Like if you played a Priest on your initial turn, it's still sitting right there in play, but it's not going to give you money for trashing on your extra turn like a newbie might expect.
I think Journey might end up being my favorite extra-turn Event. I feel like I generally look to grab Seize the Day later in the game when I come up with nothing but Silver - Silver or Copper - Gold. Those would be exactly the turns on which you'd want to buy it (since you're not locking yourself out of too much of your deck).
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I'm really surprised King's Cache is able to cost $7 without any extra abilities while Tiara needs a buy and topdecking to cost the same as Throne Room.
Well, Tiara could be a $5 and still be pretty strong.
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I think Journey might end up being my favorite extra-turn Event. I feel like I generally look to grab Seize the Day later in the game when I come up with nothing but Silver - Silver or Copper - Gold. Those would be exactly the turns on which you'd want to buy it (since you're not locking yourself out of too much of your deck).
I agree, it's excellent insurance against a dud turn for an engine. Normally it'll be useless for a draw-your-deck engine, but as long as you can hit $4 with your dud hand, you'll usually recover.
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Wow, the d.g bot has no concept of the implications of the Shaman setup rule. It just ends up with all the starting cards from both our decks.
I'm interested to see how the TGG bot handles it.
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Shaman is going to have some weird effects with trashing attacks and trash for benefit. Also cards like Pillage will be really weird. I play a Pillage, it self-trashes, then my opponent gains it ...
Good, Pillage really needed that nerf.
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New cursing attack: Buy a Curse with a Watchtower in hand in a game with Shaman ...
Do it in the opening with an Inherited Watchtower.
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I think Taskmaster is the first time we've seen the phrasing of "repeat this ability" on a Dominion card. Is there a reason it's not just "at the start of your next turn, play this again."?
Yes. A lot of work went into that wording, trying to find something that handled all the cases that needed handling. "Play this again" was tried and failed; consider Throning it.
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I'm really surprised King's Cache is able to cost $7 without any extra abilities while Tiara needs a buy and topdecking to cost the same as Throne Room.
The point of comparison here is an illusion. King's Cache and King's Court are actual doublers; Tiara and Throne Room are like copies of the card you play with them, except with bonuses.
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It's interesting how Shaman impacts so much. It majorly nerfs trashing attacks, since most of the time your opponent will be able to get back what you just trashed on their turn (although in multiplayer games it could have the effect of shuffling cards between players), unless you play multiple trashing attacks, in which case they'll only get back one of the cards you trashed and you'll get another one
But also it's kind of funny how the trash has been becoming gradually more "leaky". In the base set, trashing was permanent. Once a card was Trashed, it effectively ceased to exist for the rest of the game. Then a few cards were introduced, like Graverobber and Lurker, that could gain certain cards from the trash. And now we have Shaman giving you stuff from the Trash whether you want it or not
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I think Journey might have a shot at most beginner-friendly extra turn.
I get what you're saying about it being simple with just playing an extra regular turn, but there are tons of "this turn" cards that will confuse newbies why they don't work. Like if you played a Priest on your initial turn, it's still sitting right there in play, but it's not going to give you money for trashing on your extra turn like a newbie might expect.
That’s pretty fair. Priest is enough of a nuisance for new players without adding that on top of it.
I’d still lean toward Journey being the simplest, as the most confusing part about it comes from other cards, not the feature itself. Yeah, “while in play” is wonky, but I think it’s less wonky than only playing three cards and wait, what’s the point of this if I can’t play the three extra Treasures I just drew with Smithy?
All this is a moot point entirely because I forgot about Seize the Day and that is a no-strings-attached extra turn and I think that’s probably the most newbie-friendly. They only have to think about it once! Even better!
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So Shaman is the new forced slog huh. Played some games with it and my first impression is I hate it, it's way less fun than 2P Ambassador games used to be (but I understand why Ambassador wasn't good for multiplayer). Shaman's design works for multiplayer though, so here we are. RIP Ambassador and his favorite game of estate tennis
Journey is very strong and games can consistently end by like turn 10 with it. Unless there's a 4 you /really/ want to cycle in before turn 3, opening Journey/some $3 is great because you're effectively getting a turn 2 with that $3 in either your hand or draw pile.
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Isn't First Mate and Tactician combo too strong?
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One cool thing about First Mate is that you don't have to have the cards in your hand to start with. So you can chain Smithies like they're Cultists, or play a bunch of Labs as Lost Cities.
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Isn't First Mate and Tactician combo too strong?
I guess it's pretty strong, but I'd argue that it has nothing on the combo of, say, King's Court and King's Court. Basically, you need quite a bit of setup and all it does is draw your deck and get some buys and actions. You then have to still discard all the cards you have drawn and draw to six if you want to repeat it next turn. It isn't very conducive to gain & play by itself, doesn't provide it's own payload and is pretty fragile. It's a stronger version of Double Tactician, with a lot of the same limitations and conditions.
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it's kind of funny how the trash has been becoming gradually more "leaky". In the base set, trashing was permanent. Once a card was Trashed, it effectively ceased to exist for the rest of the game. Then a few cards were introduced, like Graverobber and Lurker, that could gain certain cards from the trash. And now we have Shaman giving you stuff from the Trash whether you want it or not
My own observation: as the number of of Dominion expansions increases (not complaining) ... the probability of an "oblivion"-type ability/mat being introduced from which cards can't ever as easily be regained to anyone's deck ... approaches 1
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Patience cards are almost like quasi-Duration-Night cards, in that the net effect is similar to playing a Night card whose effect is on the next turn. E.g., a Cantrip set aside by Night is similar to playing Ghost Town. Of course, for cards that care about what's in play, there's an important difference between a Patience card being set aside and a Night card being played, but in a lot of games the net effect of using the Patience trait is similar to playing a Night card
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My own observation: as the number of of Dominion expansions increases (not complaining) ... the probability of an "oblivion"-type ability/mat being introduced from which cards can't ever as easily be regained to anyone's deck ... approaches 1
I doubt it. On the vast majority of boards, cards in the trash are still irretrievable. The few games with Lurker, Graverobber, Rogue, Treasurer or Shaman (arguably Necromancer as well) give a break from the usual. In my opinion, they don't undermine the trash as in, say, Magic the Gathering, where most decks use the graveyard as a resource in one way or another, which then leads to the necessity of an 'oblivion' (which in Magic is also leaky, albeit less so). Unless an expansion with a major theme of resurrection or something is released, such a mat would serve little purpose and would be bad game design in my eyes.
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Assuming there's just the 6 un-trashers (no others in Plunder), there's a 13.4% chance of at least one of them being in a game of all kingdoms full random latest editions (not accounting for Young Witch, Black Market etc.) I think that probability is low enough for the Trash to be considered the trash.
For comparison, when Dark Ages came out, the probability was 10.5% of having either Graverobber or Rogue in the Kingdom. Even just Base (1st edition) and Dark Ages gives a 30.8% chance of un-trashing (not counting Thief).
So fair to assume the trash is the trash when you play a game of Dominion, but of course it depends on the Kingdom.
A card that sends cards back to the box, to "Oblivion" etc. would meaningfully interact with the 6 untrashers, Forager, Necromancer and the "When trash" cards (+Tomb and Sewers). That would actually be quite common as the number of when trash cards is going up. Going to wait until the full set is revealed before calculating probability (and not sure how to include the landscapes).
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it's kind of funny how the trash has been becoming gradually more "leaky". In the base set, trashing was permanent. Once a card was Trashed, it effectively ceased to exist for the rest of the game. Then a few cards were introduced, like Graverobber and Lurker, that could gain certain cards from the trash. And now we have Shaman giving you stuff from the Trash whether you want it or not
My own observation: as the number of of Dominion expansions increases (not complaining) ... the probability of an "oblivion"-type ability/mat being introduced from which cards can't ever as easily be regained to anyone's deck ... approaches 1
Expansion 32 (Dominion Legacy) will include a card: "when you trash this, tear up the card".
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Shaman is an interesting card. At first I thought it made trashing useless, but then I realized your opponent will be gaining before you do. Who knows, maybe I'll end up hating it after a few games though.
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Shaman is an interesting card. At first I thought it made trashing useless, but then I realized your opponent will be gaining before you do. Who knows, maybe I'll end up hating it after a few games though.
It can have some interesting interactions. For example, if there's only one Curse in the Trash, you're gonna be reluctant to trash a Copper. After all, you'd much rather force your opponent to take the Curse then to let them take the Copper and leave you with the Curse
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I think Taskmaster is the first time we've seen the phrasing of "repeat this ability" on a Dominion card. Is there a reason it's not just "at the start of your next turn, play this again."?
Yes. A lot of work went into that wording, trying to find something that handled all the cases that needed handling. "Play this again" was tried and failed; consider Throning it.
Hmm, what's the problem with Throning "at the start of your next turn, play this again"? If you gain a $5, it plays itself twice next turn, setting up its next-turn ability twice. If you gain a $5 that turn too, it plays itself twice again, etc. What am I missing?
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I think Taskmaster is the first time we've seen the phrasing of "repeat this ability" on a Dominion card. Is there a reason it's not just "at the start of your next turn, play this again."?
Yes. A lot of work went into that wording, trying to find something that handled all the cases that needed handling. "Play this again" was tried and failed; consider Throning it.
Hmm, what's the problem with Throning "at the start of your next turn, play this again"? If you gain a $5, it plays itself twice next turn, setting up its next-turn ability twice. If you gain a $5 that turn too, it plays itself twice again, etc. What am I missing?
I'd swear there was a version that added copies with each turn. I don't have it in me to look through the discussions of the wordings though.
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I remember pointing toward Citadel during play testing. It added an extra play every turn and made it borderline un-trackable IRL.