Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Donald X. on December 13, 2022, 03:00:09 am
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The other big part of Plunder is Durations, so let's see some of those.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946677362215518218/1052129208052219934/plunder_tuesday1.PNG)
Siren is just some new Duration card. It's a little hard to get; someone has to get lured to their doom. There are some subtle combos for getting around that penalty; see if you can find them.
Stowaway is a Duration card that cares about Duration cards; yes today is just mirroring yesterday. They'll stow away on anything - a Merchant Ship, a Barge, even a Swamp Hag.
Swamp Shacks is a non-Duration card that cares about Duration cards. It doesn't call them out but you can see how they help it.
Finally Buried Treasure is a Treasure-Duration. It's the payload version of Den of Sin.
Plunder has a new kind of landscape, Traits. These modify a pile. They only modify a kingdom card pile (not e.g. Gold), and only Action and Treasure piles. Technically they don't "modify" the pile, they just refer to it somehow, but the pile will feel modified, take it from me. At the start of a game with a Trait, you randomly pick which eligibile pile is modified, and the Trait card can slide under the pile, leaving the text showing and the name on the sides. Hence the layout. Well man let's see some of these.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946677362215518218/1052129333138952252/plunder_tuesday2.PNG)
So. Pious. Maybe that shows up on uh Smithy. So this game, when you gain a Smithy, you also get to trash a card from your hand. Well that's bound to be handy.
Fawning means Province comes with a Fawning card. It's not optional, which is sometimes fun.
Shy lets you discard one copy of the Shy card at the start of your turn, for +2 Cards. It's pretty simple but still spices up almost anything.
Okay. If a Trait lands on a split pile, all the cards are affected; "a Pious card" means any card from the Pious pile. This can include Territory in the Clashes, even though normally Victory cards can't have Traits. And one way or another the rules will handle all the cases that can come up, so there.
Tomorrow: Loot.
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Well, the obvious Siren combo is with Fortress.
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There are some subtle combos for getting around that penalty; see if you can find them.
Moving it somewhere it doesn't expect to be on-gain?
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Moving it somewhere it doesn't expect to be on-gain?
And in fact you can manage that turn 2 with 3 Coppers.
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Moving it somewhere it doesn't expect to be on-gain?
And in fact you can manage that turn 2 with 3 Coppers.
If it's Pious, you can trash Overgrown Estate to shuffle it in.
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Moving it somewhere it doesn't expect to be on-gain?
And in fact you can manage that turn 2 with 3 Coppers.
Transport. Necropolis. Although none of these refer to the stop-moving-rule.
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So what are the rules for including a Trait in an all-random game? Shuffled in with the WELPs?
In that case, is maximum 2, uh, TWELPs the recommendation?
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@ Donald X.
In the explanation of Pious you mention "...you also get to trash a card from your hand.", but the card text says "may trash".
Does this mean that there maybe was a previous test version which said "obliged trash"? Or did you just made a mistake in the explanation?
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Does this mean bane is a trait, and we finally can get a bane card if you bought first editions?
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Stowaway is a Duration card that cares about Duration cards [..] They'll stow away on anything - a Merchant Ship, a Barge, even a Swamp Hag.
Most simply your own gain of a second (and more) Stowaways. They're friendly like that.
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@ Donald X.
In the explanation of Pious you mention "...you also get to trash a card from your hand.", but the card text says "may trash".
Does this mean that there maybe was a previous test version which said "obliged trash"? Or did you just made a mistake in the explanation?
I think you may be misunderstanding "get to"; it typically means "may" rather than "must".
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Siren+shelters+2/5 split=resign?
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Cue the debate over whether Obelisk should be a Trait.
I wonder if Inherited will be as if you had Inheritance on that card from the beginning of the game? Probably not, because what would you do with split piles?
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Stowaway is a Duration card that cares about Duration cards [..] They'll stow away on anything - a Merchant Ship, a Barge, even a Swamp Hag.
Most simply your own gain of a second (and more) Stowaways. They're friendly like that.
Or that Stowaway, if gained to your hand (e.g. with Sculptor or Artisan).
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There have been 2 very common rules questions in the discord:
1. Can Ruins get Traits?
No. Part of the confusion, I think, is because Populate can gain Ruins. But Donald X. didn't say Action supply pile, they said kingdom Action/Treasure pile (rip Night cards).
2. How/why can you dodge Siren's restriction?
it seems like most people aren't familiar enough with the stop moving / no visiting rules to understand tricks for dodging Siren's restriction. So here's my quick explanation:
(All of the following also applies to dodging Gatekeeper; it's just that uh no one buys that card)
There are 3 different categories of cards that are relevant for the no visiting rule:
1. gain a card directly to a location (Armory, Sculptor)
2. when you gain a card, move it (Siren, Travelling Fair)
3. gain a card. then move it (Replace, Summon)
(For more examples of cards within these categories, http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/No_Visiting_rule)
When you have multiple effects at the same time (i.e. category 2), you can order them. So if you buy a Siren, you can choose to topdeck it with Travelling Fair first. And then you resolve the Siren's effect, except that the Siren is no longer where it was gained to (your discard pile), so the Siren fails to trash itself.
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So what are the rules for including a Trait in an all-random game? Shuffled in with the WELPs?
In that case, is maximum 2, uh, TWELPs the recommendation?
I want to know this also. As well as the stupid but very important question of, what do you do if a Trait is randomly chosen for your Kingdom, but your Kingdom does not contain any action or treasure piles? A similar question had come up once with having Young Witch, but every (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) or (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) cost card you own is already in the Kingdom.
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Oh, Another Q.
does this mean I need to sleeve my randomizers - to know which pile has what trait?
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what do you do if a Trait is randomly chosen for your Kingdom, but your Kingdom does not contain any action or treasure piles?
Your Kingdom is broken, return it to the store.
More seriously, the general rule in Dominion is that when you can't do something you fail to do it and move on.
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Fawning --> any $7 Action + City State + Way of the Butterfly + Guildmaster + $4 = piling out the Provinces (as early as turn 3).
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Well, the obvious Siren combo is with Fortress.
And Trail. I'm wondering if there'll be another card in this set with the a similar on-trash effect to combo with this one
Camel Train would also be interesting with this. You could Exile one copy, then buy one from the Supply. The card you bought gets trashed while the card in Exile gets discarded
It would also be interesting with cards that gain from the Trash like Lurker or Rogue - essentially trading one Action for another (or ending up with no net gain - although with Tomb you'd still get +1VP) - although those would also let you regain the card you trashed for it. It'll definitely have interesting combos with trash-for-benefit cards, and costing only $3 will make it play well with emulators
Being Duration draw-to-X is interesting. We haven't had anything like that up till now (barring Royal Galley + draw to X of course). Order of play with other Duration draw will be important. It'll be interesting to see how this plays in various kingdoms - the trashing requirement would be a very high cost in some kingdoms and cheap in others
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what do you do if a Trait is randomly chosen for your Kingdom, but your Kingdom does not contain any action or treasure piles?
Your Kingdom is broken, return it to the store.
More seriously, the general rule in Dominion is that when you can't do something you fail to do it and move on.
Not sure if that applies to setup or not. The other option would be to draw a new landscape instead, which would be reasonable. But that's assuming that the general rule for choosing Traits is the same as the general rule for other landscapes.
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Pretty cool to see a fan mechanic pretty much making it to official Dominion. And Donald X's designs are obviously much better than the stuff I could ever come up with.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20890.msg875201#msg875201
The Siren stuff is pretty nifty too.
There have been 2 very common rules questions in the discord
2. How/why can you dodge Siren's restriction?
it seems like most people aren't familiar enough with the stop moving / no visiting rules to understand tricks for dodging Siren's restriction. So here's my quick explanation:
(All of the following also applies to dodging Gatekeeper; it's just that uh no one buys that card)
There are 3 different categories of cards that are relevant for the no visiting rule:
1. gain a card directly to a location (Armory, Sculptor)
2. when you gain a card, move it (Siren, Travelling Fair)
3. gain a card. then move it (Replace, Summon)
(For more examples of cards within these categories, http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/No_Visiting_rule)
When you have multiple effects at the same time (i.e. category 2), you can order them. So if you buy a Siren, you can choose to topdeck it with Travelling Fair first. And then you resolve the Siren's effect, except that the Siren is no longer where it was gained to (your discard pile), so the Siren fails to trash itself.
Ooh nasty. Definitely falls into the "keep rules compact and encourage players to materialize every aspect of them" type of board game design, which is nifty.
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Moving it somewhere it doesn't expect to be on-gain?
And in fact you can manage that turn 2 with 3 Coppers.
If it's Pious, you can trash Overgrown Estate to shuffle it in.
That does work. My example is drawing a card via Band of Nomads.
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It would be nice to have a name to refer to traits, events, ways, landmarks, and projects plus any future similar things rather than using an acronym that keeps changing every time something new is introduced. Donald, is there any shorthand you use?
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It would be nice to have a name to refer to traits, events, ways, landmarks, and projects plus any future similar things rather than using an acronym that keeps changing every time something new is introduced. Donald, is there any shorthand you use?
Isn't "landscapes" a pretty common term that everyone uses?
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It would be nice to have a name to refer to traits, events, ways, landmarks, and projects plus any future similar things rather than using an acronym that keeps changing every time something new is introduced. Donald, is there any shorthand you use?
Isn't "landscapes" a pretty common term that everyone uses?
"Landscapes" might include Boons, Hexes, Artifacts, and States, which aren't in the set of things that are used in this way.
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Pious Sirens are kinda funny.
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It would be nice to have a name to refer to traits, events, ways, landmarks, and projects plus any future similar things rather than using an acronym that keeps changing every time something new is introduced. Donald, is there any shorthand you use?
Isn't "landscapes" a pretty common term that everyone uses?
I've called them "Add-Ons" or "Kingdom Add-Ons" in the past.
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Wow, Swamp Shacks is crazy. I just played a game with Workshop/Village/Stowaway, so playing cards was easy, and I have to say +2 Actions, +7 Cards is pretty decent for a $4 card!
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It would be nice to have a name to refer to traits, events, ways, landmarks, and projects plus any future similar things rather than using an acronym that keeps changing every time something new is introduced. Donald, is there any shorthand you use?
I call the non-cards, Horizontals.
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Landscape just means horizontal orientation, i.e. aligned with the horizon line. So, you know, whatever word you like best.
The fact that Boons, Hexes, Artifacts, States are also horizontal isn't interesting to me, but apparently someone cares and needs a way to exclude those, because reasons.
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Cue the debate over whether Obelisk should be a Trait.
I wonder if Inherited will be as if you had Inheritance on that card from the beginning of the game? Probably not, because what would you do with split piles?
Plus there's no cost restriction for Traits - if it worked like Inheritance, imagine getting that on, say, Animal Fair - turning a 3/4 opening into a 7/8 opening or a 2/5 opening into a 6/5! - or King's Court
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Can two Traits modify the same pile?
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Are you able to use two Traits in the same Kingdom? I'm guessing you are, since you didn't specify in your post
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Landscape just means horizontal orientation, i.e. aligned with the horizon line. So, you know, whatever word you like best.
The fact that Boons, Hexes, Artifacts, States are also horizontal isn't interesting to me, but apparently someone cares and needs a way to exclude those, because reasons.
Seconded. It’s not a huge jump to exclude those; they aren’t entities on their own, they’re attached to specific cards. True landscapes affect how the kingdom is played regardless of what else is on the board (with a few exceptions); these extraneous non-cards can’t even impact the game without their specific card coming being played.
Allies blur the line a bit, but (A) they’re still static entities that can alter kingdoms in specific ways and (B) the setup favor means many of them can impact the game without using a Liaison anyways.
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"Landscapes" is what I use.
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Fawning + Siren is hilarious. Buy a Province, trash a Siren
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Are you able to use two Traits in the same Kingdom? I'm guessing you are, since you didn't specify in your post
I suppose so, since I had an online game with two Traits yesterday.
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Isn't "landscapes" a pretty common term that everyone uses?
I usually call them "kingdom landscapes". They are placed open at/near the kingdom and may have an immediate effect. That's unlike Boons/Hexes or Artifacts that only become technically relevant when a card calls for them.
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Donald, Stowaway can play itself if it was gained to your hand, right? I don't think it should lose track of itself.
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"Lose track" isn't a rule anymore. Stop moving is. Because it was gained to your hand, its play couldn't cause it to do something further to itself from its an own on gain ability, like say trash itself (which is relevant for a card like Siren), but Stowaway doesn't have such an own on gain ability.
Yet, the Stowaway now in your hand is also a reaction. It can now proceed to react to a gain that occurred, because that reaction doesn't care where the card it's reacting to was gained to (or whether it's itself). It's just like Sheepdog.
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"Lose track" isn't a rule anymore. Stop moving is. Because it was gained to your hand, its play couldn't cause it to do something further to itself from its an own on gain ability, like say trash itself (which is relevant for a card like Siren), but Stowaway doesn't have such an own on gain ability.
Yet, the Stowaway now in your hand is also a reaction. It can now proceed to react to a gain that occurred, because that reaction doesn't care where the card it's reacting to was gained to (or whether it's itself). It's just like Sheepdog.
Thanks, yes, losing track doesn't matter here.
The rule, whatever you call it, is about losing track. The rule is that an ability can't move a card if it loses track of it. The rule now has a further addition, or "fellow rule" if you want to think if it that way, that the ability can't play that card either, unless the ability is a Throne Room variant. That rule is also about losing track, but not about moving - which is why I think we can think of these as two parts of the lose-track rule. Or, if you want, they are two lose-track rules.
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"Lose track" isn't a rule anymore. Stop moving is. Because it was gained to your hand, its play couldn't cause it to do something further to itself from its an own on gain ability, like say trash itself (which is relevant for a card like Siren), but Stowaway doesn't have such an own on gain ability.
Yet, the Stowaway now in your hand is also a reaction. It can now proceed to react to a gain that occurred, because that reaction doesn't care where the card it's reacting to was gained to (or whether it's itself). It's just like Sheepdog.
Thanks, yes, losing track doesn't matter here.
The rule, whatever you call it, is about losing track. The rule is that an ability can't move a card if it loses track of it. The rule now has a further addition, or "fellow rule" if you want to think if it that way, that the ability can't play that card either, unless the ability is a Throne Room variant. That rule is also about losing track, but not about moving - which is why I think we can think of these as two parts of the lose-track rule. Or, if you want, they are two lose-track rules.
Yeah, as I understand it, the reason "lose tracK" was renamed to "stop moving" was because people kept thinking incorrectly that "lose track" matterered for things other than moving, such as being unable to play a card or unable to refer to information about the card. But then the rule for "can't play" was added, so "stop moving" has more than just moving involved.
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"Landscapes" is what I use.
I guess that makes sense. If I say "what landscapes are in the kingdom?" you're not going to say "Misery"
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"Landscapes" is what I use.
I guess that makes sense. If I say "what landscapes are in the kingdom?" you're not going to say "Misery"
You might say "Plateau Shepherds", and are Allies landscapes? I could see an argument both ways.
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Allies are a landscape because they affect what other cards in the kingdom, namely the Liasons, are good for. They have their own setup rule though, since they need a Liason to do meaningful work.
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Allies are a landscape because they affect what other cards in the kingdom, namely the Liasons, are good for. They have their own setup rule though, since they need a Liason to do meaningful work.
By this reasoning, Boons are also landscapes: They affect what another card in the kingdom, namely Druid, is good for.
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Allies are a landscape because they affect what other cards in the kingdom, namely the Liasons, are good for. They have their own setup rule though, since they need a Liason to do meaningful work.
By this reasoning, Boons are also landscapes: They affect what another card in the kingdom, namely Druid, is good for.
Druid doesn’t count; it’s the exception. Boons normally don’t work that way.
It is inherent to how Allies are played that specific Allies are chosen for each game, and the rest are NOT chosen. Boons are never (other than the exception) singled out and are essentially a d12 for modifying Fate cards. Allies are specific things that exist and impact decision-making regardless of the cards referring to them; Boons cannot impact the game outside of being called by a Fate card.
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Indeed its 3 boons *are* relevant setup landscapes when Druid is on the board.
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Funny thing about Siren I don't think comes up much elsewhere: gaining to the top of your deck is different from putting something on top of your deck at the moment you gain it. And both are also different from something that first gains a card, then moves it (like Replace).
Topdecking as with Travelling Fair, Bauble, Tracker, Seal, Royal Seal, Insignia ::: Siren is gained to your discard, then optionally topdecked, so per the stop-moving rule it will fail to trash itself on-gain if it was moved.
Gaining to the top of your deck as with Develop, Armory ::: Siren is not moved after gaining, and so its on-gain is able to trash itself.
Gaining then after gain moving as with Replace ::: Siren's on-gain triggers before Replace proceeds to try and move it, so its on-gain trashing will happen.
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Indeed its 3 boons *are* relevant setup landscapes when Druid is on the board.
I already said that’s irrelevant. That is the only Fate card to work that way and it is clearly a departure from how Boons normally function.
And again, those Boons can’t impact the game outside of Druid. Allies can impact the game even if you never touch a single Liaison in the kingdom.
Druid doesn’t make Boons a landscape any more than Necromancer makes Zombies a supply pile.
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It doesn't make all Boons a setup landscape. Just the ones that get set aside during setup.
And again, those Boons can’t impact the game outside of Druid. Allies can impact the game even if you never touch a single Liaison in the kingdom.
Other Fate cards not being able to trigger them normally since they won't be in the stack of boons is an impact, especially relevant for one like The Mountain's Curse Gift which is more of a misnamed hex. Suddenly playing those Fate cards is safer and more useful than it otherwise would be. But regardless it's a distinction without a difference: an Ally when Liasons are a present and the Boons when Druid is present are all setup landscapes--even if Druid is the only Fate card or Liasons are the only thing they have an effect through (as is particularly the case with Allies that need more than one favor to ever do anything)
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Funny thing about Siren I don't think comes up much elsewhere: gaining to the top of your deck is different from putting something on top of your deck at the moment you gain it. And both are also different from something that first gains a card, then moves it (like Replace).
Topdecking as with Travelling Fair, Bauble, Tracker, Seal, Royal Seal, Insignia ::: Siren is gained to your discard, then optionally topdecked, so per the stop-moving rule it will fail to trash itself on-gain if it was moved.
Gaining to the top of your deck as with Develop, Armory ::: Siren is not moved after gaining, and so its on-gain is able to trash itself.
Gaining then after gain moving as with Replace ::: Siren's on-gain triggers before Replace proceeds to try and move it, so its on-gain trashing will happen.
Actually those things come up quite often. Topdeck a card with Travelling Fair, Cargo Ship will fail to set it aside, etc.
I guess you're saying that Siren is not optional. Then it's Villa, Berserker and Gatekeeper. Out of those though, only Gatekeeper and Siren do something that you usually want to avoid.
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TWELPs have a recommended setup limit to 2, and are included in the kingdom independently of anything else in the kingdom.
The other landscape types don't count towards this limit, and can only be included in the kingdom due to something else in the kingdom; although the non-ally ones always include the same things.
On the other hand, boons/hexes/artifacts/states have no impact on the game until they're used by something else, so you could imagine them as always being part of every game, but just not relevant if nothing uses them. But you can't do that for allies.
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It doesn't make all Boons a setup landscape. Just the ones that get set aside during setup.
It would be similarly unhelpful to say that Workshop is a Reaction because it was the Way of the Mouse and you played a Sheepdog as Workshop on someone else’s turn. I am interested in what IS inherently a landscape, not what sometimes acts like a landscape.
And again, those Boons can’t impact the game outside of Druid. Allies can impact the game even if you never touch a single Liaison in the kingdom.
But regardless it's a distinction without a difference: an Ally when Liasons are a present and the Boons when Druid is present are all setup landscapes--even if Druid is the only Fate card or Liasons are the only thing they have an effect through (as is particularly the case with Allies that need more than one favor to ever do anything)
With Allies, it is categorically possible for them to impact play without a Liaison being played. Some don’t, but functionally it is possible. The rules for Allies do not inherently require you to play a Liaison, it is just generally advisable. Allies require Favors, not Liaisons, it just so happens that Liaisons are how you get favors.
Could you please explain how you could ever receive a Boon without somebody playing a Fate card?
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Why would I explain something that has nothing to do with what I've said? Explain it to yourself or someone earlier in the thread, since you appear to be arguing with them or yourself about that.
As for it being "categorically" possible for allies to affect the game without a liaison being played, it continues to be a moot point. It's (a) not the reason we refer to allies as being "landscapes", and (b) the rules are you only add one to the kingdom when there's a liaison anyway.
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Apologies! Let me elaborate instead of throwing snark like I have been: I define a Landscape as something that exists on its own, and can impact the game apart from, cards that may refer to it or trigger it to be included. My understanding is that one of points of contention was whether or not Boons do that, which I mistakenly took as mutual agreement to my initial definition. Your post above clarified for me that that is not necessarily how you define landscapes.
Could I ask what your definition of Landscape is? If your definition of Landscape is “a card-shaped element of the board that requires setup and is in landscape orientation,” I’m not going to sit here and say “akshually that’s not landscape orientation.”
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Funny thing about Siren I don't think comes up much elsewhere: gaining to the top of your deck is different from putting something on top of your deck at the moment you gain it. And both are also different from something that first gains a card, then moves it (like Replace).
Thanks for that explanation! The first time I tried to work around the trashing, I gained Siren to my hand with Artisan and was disappointed when I still had to trash it. Now I'll know to really pay attention to wording on each individual gainer card.
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If your definition of Landscape is “a card-shaped element of the board that requires setup and is in landscape orientation,” I’m not going to sit here and say “akshually that’s not landscape orientation.”
That's basically it -- because when we're talking about them the most salient thing about them is that they are part of the kingdom's setup and affect how it plays (either directly or indirectly through druid/liaisons). So I call them "setup landscapes" in a conversation like this one where we need to specifically exclude hexes, non-Druid boons, and artifacts, all of which don't involve setup decisions that affect how the kingdom and things in it play, they just need to be set up as available when things refer to them.
The per se landscape orientation is mainly for player convenience, so we don't confuse anything oriented this way with portrait ones that can be gained into decks.
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2. How/why can you dodge Siren's restriction?
it seems like most people aren't familiar enough with the stop moving / no visiting rules to understand tricks for dodging Siren's restriction. So here's my quick explanation:
(All of the following also applies to dodging Gatekeeper; it's just that uh no one buys that card)
There are 3 different categories of cards that are relevant for the no visiting rule:
1. gain a card directly to a location (Armory, Sculptor)
2. when you gain a card, move it (Siren, Travelling Fair)
3. gain a card. then move it (Replace, Summon)
(For more examples of cards within these categories, http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/No_Visiting_rule)
When you have multiple effects at the same time (i.e. category 2), you can order them. So if you buy a Siren, you can choose to topdeck it with Travelling Fair first. And then you resolve the Siren's effect, except that the Siren is no longer where it was gained to (your discard pile), so the Siren fails to trash itself.
I've been thinking about this for now, and I think by myself: is this really the logical route? In particular, it really seems really weird that "when you gain this, put it into your hand" and "this is gained into your hand" aren't functionally identical.
The no visiting rule (which only applies to category 1 if I understand correctly) in particular seems to be designed to be able to use moving on-gain effects on cards that are gained into your hand or onto your deck. So to me, it seems logical to broaden the expected location for gained cards to:
a) Your discard pile
b) Your hand
c) A specified location in your deck (which means that if the gained card entered your deck pre shuffle, it can no longer be moved)
As cool as being able to dodge Siren's restriction with optional topdecking, it is something that Armory and ideally also Replace should be able to do as well if we go for it IMO.
That said, I know I cannot outthink the development team, so I'm pretty sure they have good reasons why it is the way it is now.
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Well I'll take a stab:
- Armory, Sculptor aren't optional. They gain directly to a specific location and so Siren can then simply trash itself, no stop-moving involved.
- Traveling Fair and other seal/topdecking variants don't happen immediately. You're given an option after gain. They could have been worded as "you may gain it to the top of your deck" rather than put it on top of your deck, but they weren't, for..reasons? I don't know why offhand, but it's how they were all made--I would guess because it made for the simplest wording.
- Replace isn't optional, but there is a decision involved based on the card's type. It's simplest to gain first and then make that determination, vs. describing two different locations on the card itself.
- Summon sets aside after gain because that's how you set up things for the next turn without a duration card involved. It could have been created as "Set aside a card" without using gain, but then other on-gain things wouldn't trigger and that would be confusing.
In general, when all these cards were designed the goals were:
1) Ensure they functionally work as they should in all situations
2) Make them as easy to understand as possible
3) Minimize confusion
A 4th goal of, say, "ensure they all interact exactly the same way with another card that does on-gain things like Siren" .. well, that was never a goal because it would lead to more awkward wordings. (1), (2), and (3) are far more important game design considerations.
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- Traveling Fair and other seal/topdecking variants don't happen immediately. You're given an option after gain. They could have been worded as "you may gain it to the top of your deck" rather than put it on top of your deck, but they weren't, for..reasons? I don't know why offhand, but it's how they were all made--I would guess because it made for the simplest wording.
I think the reason is that when-gain happens after gaining, so if e.g. Traveling Fair was worded "When you gain a card this turn, you may gain it to the top of your deck", you would effectively gain the card in question twice, which is all kinds of confusing. And if you wanted to avoid that but still use the wording, you'd need a when-would-gain trigger, and we don't want those.
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Well I'll take a stab:
- Armory, Sculptor aren't optional. They gain directly to a specific location and so Siren can then simply trash itself, no stop-moving involved.
- Traveling Fair and other seal/topdecking variants don't happen immediately. You're given an option after gain. They could have been worded as "you may gain it to the top of your deck" rather than put it on top of your deck, but they weren't, for..reasons? I don't know why offhand, but it's how they were all made--I would guess because it made for the simplest wording.
- Replace isn't optional, but there is a decision involved based on the card's type. It's simplest to gain first and then make that determination, vs. describing two different locations on the card itself.
- Summon sets aside after gain because that's how you set up things for the next turn without a duration card involved. It could have been created as "Set aside a card" without using gain, but then other on-gain things wouldn't trigger and that would be confusing.
In general, when all these cards were designed the goals were:
1) Ensure they functionally work as they should in all situations
2) Make them as easy to understand as possible
3) Minimize confusion
A 4th goal of, say, "ensure they all interact exactly the same way with another card that does on-gain things like Siren" .. well, that was never a goal because it would lead to more awkward wordings. (1), (2), and (3) are far more important game design considerations.
Well, I never criticized the wording of the cards; these are fine the way they are. It was mostly a critique to the rule itself; the fact that the distinctions between moving category 1 and category 2 exists at all (as both happen "during" the gaining itself). And that the no visiting rule doesn't apply to category 2, even when the card has been moved to a "reachable" destination like the hand or top of deck. And that phrases like "when you gain this, put this into your hand" and "this is gained to your hand" aren't functionally identical.
But on a second thought, this is probably the best solution after all. The gaining process formally consists of two parts:
1) moving the card to its initial destination (usually the discard) that is always the expected location for any on-gain effect
2) resolving all on-gain effects in any order.
Which justifies the distinction of categories 1 and 2.
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The no visiting rule (which only applies to category 1 if I understand correctly) in particular seems to be designed to be able to use moving on-gain effects on cards that are gained into your hand or onto your deck. So to me, it seems logical to broaden the expected location for gained cards to:
a) Your discard pile
b) Your hand
c) A specified location in your deck (which means that if the gained card entered your deck pre shuffle, it can no longer be moved)
As cool as being able to dodge Siren's restriction with optional topdecking, it is something that Armory and ideally also Replace should be able to do as well if we go for it IMO.
That said, I know I cannot outthink the development team, so I'm pretty sure they have good reasons why it is the way it is now.
Expected location can already be your discard pile or your hand. That's why for instance Watchtower can trash a card that is gained to your discard pile, your hand, your deck, or wherever. And it's actually why we CAN'T dodge Siren with Armory or Transmogrify.
If we could dodge Siren with Armory, that means we couldn't trash Seahag's curses with Watchtower. Pretty sure that's why the rule is the way it is.
But it could have been that the only expected location would be your discard pile, so that Watchtower, Siren, Royal Seal, etc. all lose track of a card that isn't gained to your discard pile.
However, Replace, Summon etc. is different: Replace has two separate instructions: Gain a card to your discard pile; move it onto your deck. Since Siren and Watchtower trigger on when-gain, it makes no sense that they would wait until Replace's second instruction is carried out.
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Well, I never criticized the wording of the cards; these are fine the way they are. It was mostly a critique to the rule itself; the fact that the distinctions between moving category 1 and category 2 exists at all (as both happen "during" the gaining itself). And that the no visiting rule doesn't apply to category 2, even when the card has been moved to a "reachable" destination like the hand or top of deck. And that phrases like "when you gain this, put this into your hand" and "this is gained to your hand" aren't functionally identical.
But on a second thought, this is probably the best solution after all. The gaining process formally consists of two parts:
1) moving the card to its initial destination (usually the discard) that is always the expected location for any on-gain effect
2) resolving all on-gain effects in any order.
Which justifies the distinction of categories 1 and 2.
Right, just to clarify: category 2 (Watchtower, Siren etc.) doesn't happen "during" the gain, but after it. Category 1 (Armory etc.) tells you to gain in a particular way. The "modified" destination is part of the gaining, so to speak.
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The no visiting rule (which only applies to category 1 if I understand correctly) in particular seems to be designed to be able to use moving on-gain effects on cards that are gained into your hand or onto your deck. So to me, it seems logical to broaden the expected location for gained cards to:
a) Your discard pile
b) Your hand
c) A specified location in your deck (which means that if the gained card entered your deck pre shuffle, it can no longer be moved)
As cool as being able to dodge Siren's restriction with optional topdecking, it is something that Armory and ideally also Replace should be able to do as well if we go for it IMO.
That said, I know I cannot outthink the development team, so I'm pretty sure they have good reasons why it is the way it is now.
Expected location can already be your discard pile or your hand. That's why for instance Watchtower can trash a card that is gained to your discard pile, your hand, your deck, or wherever. And it's actually why we CAN'T dodge Siren with Armory or Transmogrify.
If we could dodge Siren with Armory, that means we couldn't trash Seahag's curses with Watchtower. Pretty sure that's why the rule is the way it is.
But it could have been that the only expected location would be your discard pile, so that Watchtower, Siren, Royal Seal, etc. all lose track of a card that isn't gained to your discard pile.
However, Replace, Summon etc. is different: Replace has two separate instructions: Gain a card to your discard pile; move it onto your deck. Since Siren and Watchtower trigger on when-gain, it makes no sense that they would wait until Replace's second instruction is carried out.
As the FAQ says on the wiki that an action-victory still triggers the victory part, doesn't that mean that replace is functionally identical to gaining to deck? the card is in it's expected destination when on-gain triggers are resolved either way? Summon is a seal-like tho?
So far the examples in this thread are cards changing something during the play of the card (gain to hand, gain to deck), moving siren to an expected destination, forcing it to activate and cards giving you a general on-gain effect, enabling you to move it before siren would activate (seals - when gain)
Is there any reason why Replace would visit the discard?
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The no visiting rule (which only applies to category 1 if I understand correctly) in particular seems to be designed to be able to use moving on-gain effects on cards that are gained into your hand or onto your deck. So to me, it seems logical to broaden the expected location for gained cards to:
a) Your discard pile
b) Your hand
c) A specified location in your deck (which means that if the gained card entered your deck pre shuffle, it can no longer be moved)
As cool as being able to dodge Siren's restriction with optional topdecking, it is something that Armory and ideally also Replace should be able to do as well if we go for it IMO.
That said, I know I cannot outthink the development team, so I'm pretty sure they have good reasons why it is the way it is now.
Expected location can already be your discard pile or your hand. That's why for instance Watchtower can trash a card that is gained to your discard pile, your hand, your deck, or wherever. And it's actually why we CAN'T dodge Siren with Armory or Transmogrify.
If we could dodge Siren with Armory, that means we couldn't trash Seahag's curses with Watchtower. Pretty sure that's why the rule is the way it is.
But it could have been that the only expected location would be your discard pile, so that Watchtower, Siren, Royal Seal, etc. all lose track of a card that isn't gained to your discard pile.
However, Replace, Summon etc. is different: Replace has two separate instructions: Gain a card to your discard pile; move it onto your deck. Since Siren and Watchtower trigger on when-gain, it makes no sense that they would wait until Replace's second instruction is carried out.
As the FAQ says on the wiki that an action-victory still triggers the victory part, doesn't that mean that replace is functionally identical to gaining to deck? the card is in it's expected destination when on-gain triggers are resolved either way? Summon is a seal-like tho?
So far the examples in this thread are cards changing something during the play of the card (gain to hand, gain to deck), moving siren to an expected destination, forcing it to activate and cards giving you a general on-gain effect, enabling you to move it before siren would activate (seals - when gain)
Is there any reason why Replace would visit the discard?
I think the reason is simply because on Replace, the top-decking instruction is in a different sentence, whereas on Armory, it's in the same sentence.
Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the way to atomize instructions is sentence-by-sentence. The example to use is Sculptor, which has an in-same-sentence effect as well as an in-different-sentence effect. So when you play a Sculptor:
1) Gain a $4 or less card to your hand (one single atomic instruction).
2) Then, a space of time occurs for any "when gain" effects to occur.
3) THEN, +1 Villager if the gained card was a Treasure.
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Yes, it's because, as I mentioned, Replace has two separate instructions. Same with Summon, Reap and Hill Fort. Blockade on the other hand is like Armory.
Summon could have been like Blockade too, but then it would have to specify that "if you did" referred to setting it aside, not gaining it: "Gain a card costing up to $4, setting it aside. If you set it aside, then at the start of your next turn, play it." Same with Reap. *
Replace would be even trickier, maybe like: "Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more than it, putting the gained card onto your deck if it's an Action or Treasure. If it's a Victory card, each other player gains a Curse."
Hill Fort: "Gain a card costing up to $4, putting it into your hand if you choose to. If you don't choose to, instead get +1 Card and +1 Action." (Also it would remove "choose one", breaking the interaction with Elder.)
It's pretty clear that the existing card texts are for the sake of brevity and clarity. The fact that they entail two different instructions is probably just a side-effect.
* With the new rule that you can't play cards that are lost track of, we could actually drop "if you set it aside", but that rule didn't exist when Summon and Reap were published.
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Well, I never criticized the wording of the cards; these are fine the way they are. It was mostly a critique to the rule itself; the fact that the distinctions between moving category 1 and category 2 exists at all (as both happen "during" the gaining itself). And that the no visiting rule doesn't apply to category 2, even when the card has been moved to a "reachable" destination like the hand or top of deck. And that phrases like "when you gain this, put this into your hand" and "this is gained to your hand" aren't functionally identical.
But on a second thought, this is probably the best solution after all. The gaining process formally consists of two parts:
1) moving the card to its initial destination (usually the discard) that is always the expected location for any on-gain effect
2) resolving all on-gain effects in any order.
Which justifies the distinction of categories 1 and 2.
Right, just to clarify: category 2 (Watchtower, Siren etc.) doesn't happen "during" the gain, but after it. Category 1 (Armory etc.) tells you to gain in a particular way. The "modified" destination is part of the gaining, so to speak.
That, IMO, is not a clarification at all, as on-gain effects happen simultaneously with the gaining (see Innovation + Skirmisher). I'd argue that "determining the expected/default location" (what category 1 entails) happens directly before the gaining.
Category 3, on the other hand, is about effects that happen after the gaining.
And about Siren, the proper way to make it "properly" is probably to use "first" in the text to indicate it has to happen before other on-gain effects, similarly to Donate. Ditto with Gatekeeper. But there are obviously very valid reasons for not going for an approach like that. (as an opposing Gatekeeper would still let you bypass the mandatory trashing)
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Well, I never criticized the wording of the cards; these are fine the way they are. It was mostly a critique to the rule itself; the fact that the distinctions between moving category 1 and category 2 exists at all (as both happen "during" the gaining itself). And that the no visiting rule doesn't apply to category 2, even when the card has been moved to a "reachable" destination like the hand or top of deck. And that phrases like "when you gain this, put this into your hand" and "this is gained to your hand" aren't functionally identical.
But on a second thought, this is probably the best solution after all. The gaining process formally consists of two parts:
1) moving the card to its initial destination (usually the discard) that is always the expected location for any on-gain effect
2) resolving all on-gain effects in any order.
Which justifies the distinction of categories 1 and 2.
Right, just to clarify: category 2 (Watchtower, Siren etc.) doesn't happen "during" the gain, but after it. Category 1 (Armory etc.) tells you to gain in a particular way. The "modified" destination is part of the gaining, so to speak.
That, IMO, is not a clarification at all, as on-gain effects happen simultaneously with the gaining (see Innovation + Skirmisher). I'd argue that "determining the expected/default location" (what category 1 entails) happens directly before the gaining.
Category 3, on the other hand, is about effects that happen after the gaining.
And about Siren, the proper way to make it "properly" is probably to use "first" in the text to indicate it has to happen before other on-gain effects, similarly to Donate. Ditto with Gatekeeper. But there are obviously very valid reasons for not going for an approach like that. (as an opposing Gatekeeper would still let you bypass the mandatory trashing)
No, you were right the first time, first you gain the card (moving it) to its destination, then all when-gain abilities trigger. In Dominion, as in many games, all "when" abilities happen after the event, so when-discard is after discarding, when-trash is after trashing. This has been established repeatedly in these forums. You can read my rules doc if you want to go more into the details.
With Innovation + Skirmisher, first you gain Skirmisher, moving it to its destination (usually the discard), then any and all when-gain abilities trigger (like Innovation, Watchtower and Sheepdog), then you decide which you want to resolve first. (If you resolve Innovation, Watchtower loses track.) An additional rule in Dominion is that there is a "window" after the event - in this case, after the card is gained - when new when-gain abilities can trigger. Skirmisher also has a when-gain ability, and if you play it with Innovation you are still in the when-gain window, so its when-gain ability triggers (since you gained an Attack card). If you had Sheepdog, you could still choose to resolve Sheepdog before resolving Skirmisher.
"First" on cards like Moat means that you resolve it after a card is played (announced and put in play) but before it's resolved.
Since "when you gain" means "after you gain", it would be a bit weird to define "when you gain, first" as "before you gain".