Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: majiponi on August 14, 2022, 06:21:04 pm
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I bought Innovation.
When I trash a Catacombs to gain and play a Priest, do I get $4?
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Seems like this should work just the same as Innovation + Livery, which does work as per this thread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21009). So yes, you get +$4.
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i think i understand the reasoning but need to clarify why i have a doubt here:
The general rule is, when during resolving an effect due to a trigger an effect get added to the list of effects applicable for that specific trigger, the added effect is usable to the actual triggering already. Correct so far?
So under Innovation there is one effect lingering to "when a card is gained". Gaining Livery and playing it with Innovation adds another effect to the same trigger and due to the general rule gets resolved immediatly; the Livery provides a Horse for its own gaining. Still correct?
I understand GendoIkari's answer to the Priest played during resolving Catacomb's trashing effect adds Priest's bonus effect for trashing to the list of effects usable to trashing Catacomb and so gives $2 for trashing that Catacomb. Correct?
If so, my doubt is in Priest's "For the rest of this turn". For me that translate to "from now on (and not applicable to previous occurences)". Catacomb got trashed before Priest changing conditions. Although a trigger opens a "window" in which multiple things can happen seemingly "simultanously", the phrase in question indicates a timing, dividing before versus after. Furthermore: if Priest would not have that phrase, it would just work as said by Gendolkari. But since it have it, …
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i think i understand the reasoning but need to clarify why i have a doubt here:
The general rule is, when during resolving an effect due to a trigger an effect get added to the list of effects applicable for that specific trigger, the added effect is usable to the actual triggering already. Correct so far?
So under Innovation there is one effect lingering to "when a card is gained". Gaining Livery and playing it with Innovation adds another effect to the same trigger and due to the general rule gets resolved immediatly; the Livery provides a Horse for its own gaining. Still correct?
I understand GendoIkari's answer to the Priest played during resolving Catacomb's trashing effect adds Priest's bonus effect for trashing to the list of effects usable to trashing Catacomb and so gives $2 for trashing that Catacomb. Correct?
That's all correct. The only thing that makes Priest/Catacombs a little different than Livery is that the timing of Innovation interrupts things; you have to deal with a "when gain" while you're still also within the "when trash" timing window.
If so, my doubt is in Priest's "For the rest of this turn". For me that translate to "from now on (and not applicable to previous occurences)". Catacomb got trashed before Priest changing conditions. Although a trigger opens a "window" in which multiple things can happen seemingly "simultanously", the phrase in question indicates a timing, dividing before versus after. Furthermore: if Priest would not have that phrase, it would just work as said by Gendolkari. But since it have it, …
I agree with you, but Donald X does not. That specific interpretation is actually discussed by me in the linked thread. Or more accurately, based on stuff Donald said on Discord as quoted in that thread, he used to agree with that but changed his mind.
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I agree with you, but Donald X does not. That specific interpretation is actually discussed by me in the linked thread. Or more accurately, based on stuff Donald said on Discord as quoted in that thread, he used to agree with that but changed his mind.
That's not so accurate. I totally think "for the rest of this turn, when x" shouldn't work on an x that already happened, even if we're still resolving things for "when x." I was pushed into agreeing that it does due to how rulings go for other cards. For the moment there's no better answer.
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Wait, I'm confused. Has anybody, Donald or anybody else, ever claimed that Innovation+Livery should work differently from Innovation+Priest because Priest says "for the rest of this turn" while Livery just says "this turn"? I don't remember reading that and can't find it now.
Also, isn't "this turn" short for "for the rest of this turn"? It seems very strange to interpret them differently.
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Wait, I'm confused. Has anybody, Donald or anybody else, ever claimed that Innovation+Livery should work differently from Innovation+Priest because Priest says "for the rest of this turn" while Livery just says "this turn"? I don't remember reading that and can't find it now.
Also, isn't "this turn" short for "for the rest of this turn"? It seems very strange to interpret them differently.
Yeah all the discussion I remember having about whether it means "starting now" or not had equally applied to Livery and Priest; don't remember any discussion about "for the rest" mattering.
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Wait, I'm confused. Has anybody, Donald or anybody else, ever claimed that Innovation+Livery should work differently from Innovation+Priest because Priest says "for the rest of this turn" while Livery just says "this turn"? I don't remember reading that and can't find it now.
Also, isn't "this turn" short for "for the rest of this turn"? It seems very strange to interpret them differently.
Yeah all the discussion I remember having about whether it means "starting now" or not had equally applied to Livery and Priest; don't remember any discussion about "for the rest" mattering.
Ok, because I think that's what Dominionaer was saying, and it seemed you were agreeing with, and maybe also Donald was agreeing with.
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Wait, I'm confused. Has anybody, Donald or anybody else, ever claimed that Innovation+Livery should work differently from Innovation+Priest because Priest says "for the rest of this turn" while Livery just says "this turn"? I don't remember reading that and can't find it now.
Also, isn't "this turn" short for "for the rest of this turn"? It seems very strange to interpret them differently.
Yeah all the discussion I remember having about whether it means "starting now" or not had equally applied to Livery and Priest; don't remember any discussion about "for the rest" mattering.
Ok, because I think that's what Dominionaer was saying, and it seemed you were agreeing with, and maybe also Donald was agreeing with.
Ah, no my reply to Dominionaer was assuming he was talking about both Priest and Livery the same.
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Wait, I'm confused. Has anybody, Donald or anybody else, ever claimed that Innovation+Livery should work differently from Innovation+Priest because Priest says "for the rest of this turn" while Livery just says "this turn"? I don't remember reading that and can't find it now.
Also, isn't "this turn" short for "for the rest of this turn"? It seems very strange to interpret them differently.
"This turn" and "For the rest of this turn" mean the same thing.
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Wait, I'm confused. Has anybody, Donald or anybody else, ever claimed that Innovation+Livery should work differently from Innovation+Priest because Priest says "for the rest of this turn" while Livery just says "this turn"? I don't remember reading that and can't find it now.
Also, isn't "this turn" short for "for the rest of this turn"? It seems very strange to interpret them differently.
"This turn" and "For the rest of this turn" mean the same thing.
Of course this only works within the context of the Dominion cards we've been talking about. Various MTG effects say things like "if you gained life this turn", in which case it means the exact opposite of "for the rest of this turn".
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Obviously we're not talking about card texts with past tense, like Conspirator.