Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Puzzles and Challenges => Topic started by: NoMoreFun on February 09, 2022, 09:12:17 pm
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Inspired by this post by mxdata in "Best Uninteresting moments in dominion"
Tomb and Sewers both appeared in the same game - one with no trashers of any kind
Some cards depend on other cards being in the kingdom to have any interesting function. There are also cards that are strictly better than other cards when they're both in the same kingdom because of this.
So the challenge is to create a kingdom with as much redundancy and dead cards as possible, and any other ways you can think of for a kingdom to be disappointing (e.g. the best strategy on the board is probably a simple Big Money strategy).
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My attempt:
2: Moat, Faithful Hound, Guardian, Courtyard
3: Tunnel
4: Diplomat
5: Band of Misfits, Royal Seal
6: Hunting Grounds
<8>: Overlord
Landscapes: Sewers, Tomb
Moat, Faithful Hound, Diplomat, Band of Misfits and Overlord all have the same effect (+2 cards), and they are all outclassed by Courtyard. Guardian is present if you want a delayed Copper instead of a Courtyard, but there are no attacks for it to prevent. Hunting Grounds and Tunnel are present but can't be activated. Royal Seal isn't especially useless but I think it has the least impact of the remaining cards.
I don't think any strategy beats BM-Courtyard, buying Royal Seals instead of Silver when you hit $5 (maybe Hunting Grounds?).
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P: Vineyard
2: Guardian, Coin of the Realm
2+P: University
3: Night Watchman
5: Band of Misfits, Scepter
6: Captain
8: Prince
8D: Overlord
Events: Summon, Capitalism
All the cards that care about an Action card costing up to $4 or $5, and no actions that fit the bill except Band of Misfits, which of course needs an Action card costing $4 or less to do anything. Vineyard and University are there to tempt you into getting Band of Misfits when you really shouldn't. Scepter can replay one of your useless Actions. Guardian has no attacks to block, and Night Watchman is just a Night card I generally find disappointing.
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P: Vineyard
2: Guardian, Coin of the Realm
2+P: University
3: Night Watchman
5: Band of Misfits, Scepter
6: Captain
8: Prince
8D: Overlord
Events: Summon, Capitalism
All the cards that care about an Action card costing up to $4 or $5, and no actions that fit the bill except Band of Misfits, which of course needs an Action card costing $4 or less to do anything. Vineyard and University are there to tempt you into getting Band of Misfits when you really shouldn't. Scepter can replay one of your useless Actions. Guardian has no attacks to block, and Night Watchman is just a Night card I generally find disappointing.
Night Watchman is good for guaranteeing you hit $5, which in this kingdom is utterly meaningless. So the optimal strategy really is big money (which beats my kingdom where the optimal strategy is Big Money + Courtyard).
I like how you can susbtitute a lot of the landscapes and the kingdom would be just as awful (e.g. Sewers, Tomb, Academy, Barracks, any of the Adventures Token events, Inheritance). You could also replace Night Watchman with King's Court.
I can imagine each card being dealt out thinking that it was going to be a great kingdom, only to realise once everything's out that there's nothing to do.
Well done, you're the reigning champion.
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P: Vineyard
2: Guardian, Coin of the Realm
2+P: University
3: Night Watchman
5: Band of Misfits, Scepter
6: Captain
8: Prince
8D: Overlord
Events: Summon, Capitalism
All the cards that care about an Action card costing up to $4 or $5, and no actions that fit the bill except Band of Misfits, which of course needs an Action card costing $4 or less to do anything. Vineyard and University are there to tempt you into getting Band of Misfits when you really shouldn't. Scepter can replay one of your useless Actions. Guardian has no attacks to block, and Night Watchman is just a Night card I generally find disappointing.
Night Watchman is good for guaranteeing you hit $5, which in this kingdom is utterly meaningless. So the optimal strategy really is big money (which beats my kingdom where the optimal strategy is Big Money + Courtyard).
I like how you can susbtitute a lot of the landscapes and the kingdom would be just as awful (e.g. Sewers, Tomb, Academy, Barracks, any of the Adventures Token events, Inheritance). You could also replace Night Watchman with King's Court.
I can imagine each card being dealt out thinking that it was going to be a great kingdom, only to realise once everything's out that there's nothing to do.
Well done, you're the reigning champion.
My Kingdom is somewhat similar to the above, but all the Kingdom cards are Actions:
4: Throne Room, Procession, Band of Misfits
4P: Golem
5: Mastermind, Royal Carriage
6: Captain
7: King's Court
8: Prince
8D: Overlord
Landscapes: Citadel; Populate
So many options for Landscapes, but I liked these best: Citadel because it is TR variant like many of these; and Populate, because, I mean, c'mon!
I also considered Lurker instead of Golem, in order to not have any Potion cards, but wondered if there may be some attempt to use that and some of the above to 3 pile. I imagine that would be oh so slow, but went Golem instead.
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Another puzzle!
I had an idea for this before this challenge began though it is very different from the others in this thread and very very disappointing, if you can figure out why.
Platinum + Colony
Goons
Calvary
Quarry
Highway
Bridge
Chapel
Smithy
Village
King's Court
Masquerade
Landscapes:
Alms
Way of the Horse
This is a nightmare to play with (if both players know why it is), I have not played with it, nor do I want to. It is just a mess, and not for one reason, but two reasons, making it even more likely that one player will know a strategy to make it work out terribly.
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This is a nightmare to play with (if both players know why it is), I have not played with it, nor do I want to. It is just a mess, and not for one reason, but two reasons, making it even more likely that one player will know a strategy to make it work out terribly.
My guess is Goons + double cost reduction + WotHorse Cavalry = the optimal strategy is an endless game, repeatedly buying Cavalries for VP and then WotHorsing them?
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"Oh How We Miss Scout"
Navigator
Scavenger
Pearl Diver
Harbinger
Druid (Moon's Gift, Sun's Gift)
Cartographer
Guide
Mountain Village
Changeling
Fortune Teller
Ev: Scouting Party, Pursue
See Also:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20653.0
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See Also:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20653.0
I thought I remembered seeing a thread like this before.
I think it very apt that this one was started by NoMoreFun.
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This is a nightmare to play with (if both players know why it is), I have not played with it, nor do I want to. It is just a mess, and not for one reason, but two reasons, making it even more likely that one player will know a strategy to make it work out terribly.
My guess is Goons + double cost reduction + WotHorse Cavalry = the optimal strategy is an endless game, repeatedly buying Cavalries for VP and then WotHorsing them?
Even worse, there's an infinite loop within a single turn: Buy Cavalry for $0 and no net buy (gaining VPs due to Goons), play it as WotH to return it to its pile, repeat indefinitely for infinite VPs. And you can set it up very early: Open double Quarry due to Alms, buy a Village and a Goons on your second shuffle. As soon as you draw both Quarries at once, you can first draw your deck with buying Cavalries, then play Village+Goons and continue buying Cavalries.
The other problem may be the oldest known pin (KC-Goons-Masq.), though I'm not sure how it would work with 2nd edition Masquerade.
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This is a nightmare to play with (if both players know why it is), I have not played with it, nor do I want to. It is just a mess, and not for one reason, but two reasons, making it even more likely that one player will know a strategy to make it work out terribly.
My guess is Goons + double cost reduction + WotHorse Cavalry = the optimal strategy is an endless game, repeatedly buying Cavalries for VP and then WotHorsing them?
Even worse, there's an infinite loop within a single turn: Buy Cavalry for $0 and no net buy (gaining VPs due to Goons), play it as WotH to return it to its pile, repeat indefinitely for infinite VPs. And you can set it up very early: Open double Quarry due to Alms, buy a Village and a Goons on your second shuffle. As soon as you draw both Quarries at once, you can first draw your deck with buying Cavalries, then play Village+Goons and continue buying Cavalries.
The other problem may be the oldest known pin (KC-Goons-Masq.), though I'm not sure how it would work with 2nd edition Masquerade.
It doesn't. Masquerade was reworded specifically to prevent the pin.
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I forgot that pin doesn't work anymore...
Anyway, here is a better version:
Platinum + Colony
Goons
Calvary
Quarry
Possession
Lurker
Chapel
Smithy
Village
King's Court
Masquerade or Ambassador
Landscapes:
Alms
Way of the Horse
Transport (unless you limit landscapes)
Way of the Mouse (Ambassador or Lurker)
That adds easy Possessions, which makes it significantly worse.
Don't know which ones to pick.
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(https://i.redd.it/zklf4ue8n9y51.png)
Shoutout to a kingdom with only trashing I made once.
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My at this point rusty intuition says open chapel/silver, pick up a Steward at some point, ignore every other card on the board and your heirloom, and play BM. Steward/Sewers while ignoring chapel feels slightly weaker.
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These should also include bandit fort to make even BM disappointing
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Oooh, Possession/Way of the Horse. I've had that, and it's absolutely horrible. Whoever plays Possession first essentially ruins the game for their left-hand opponent.
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Whoever plays Possession first essentially ruins the game
This has been my experience as well
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My at this point rusty intuition says open chapel/silver, pick up a Steward at some point, ignore every other card on the board and your heirloom, and play BM. Steward/Sewers while ignoring chapel feels slightly weaker.
I think there were simulation results from the "early days" of Dominion showing that Chapel/BM is worse than pure BM, or at least not clearly better, due to the tempo loss from sacrificing turns for trashing.
I would play Moneylender/BM or possibly Steward/BM here since these trashers also give you some economy.
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If that is true, what about Priest/BM?
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If that is true, what about Priest/BM?
Yes, that may be an alternative to my suggestions. Initially, a terminal silver that trashes an Estate is better for BM than Moneylender or Steward. Later in the game, Priest trashing a Copper nets you $1 less than Moneylender does, but Moneylender runs out of fodder faster. I suppose you'd have to run another simulation to find out which of these is better.
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Yeah, although even if ChapelBM ≈ BM, it is not that implausible to me that Chapel into later Steward is outperforms chapel by enough to make the chapel plan work after all. Turning your completely dead card into a terminal draw is a big deal, it means that whenever you draw it, you have a 6 card hand as supposed to a 4 card hand.
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Yeah, although even if ChapelBM ≈ BM, it is not that implausible to me that Chapel into later Steward is outperforms chapel by enough to make the chapel plan work after all. Turning your completely dead card into a terminal draw is a big deal, it means that whenever you draw it, you have a 6 card hand as supposed to a 4 card hand.
The thing about Chapel is that you not only ramp up faster, you also stall faster. There comes a time later in the game when you would give your kingdom for a Copper. Those Provinces (and Duchies) can get in the way pretty fast though you often can still buy Silvers or Golds to combat that tempo loss.
So if you would imaging the VP graphs of Chapel+BM and BM you would likely see that Chapel+BM loses some VP initially, but gets to Provinces earlier until it stalls.
Pure BM on the other hand takes a lot of time to get to the first Province, but once it does, it's likely to be more consistent, almost linearly gaining VPs.
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"Get What You Pay For"
Raze, Sycophant, Broker, Salvager, Highway, Knights, Barbarian, Apprentice, Bridge Troll, Overlord
Project: Canal, Ally: Family of Inventors. (using shelters.)
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$1: Poor House
$2: Coin of the Realm, Lurker, Pearl Diver
$3: Workshop, Acting Troupe, Scheme, Village
$4: Treasure Map, Rats
I'm pretty sure BM is the best option for this board.
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Modifying the Village Idiot kingdom from the other thread:
Throne Room
Village
Acting Troupe
Underling
Fortress
Wandering Minstrel
Port
University
Walled Village
Border Village
Landscapes:
Wall
Bandit Fort
Market Towns
That would be painful. What is the best strategy?
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$1: Poor House
$2: Coin of the Realm, Lurker, Pearl Diver
$3: Workshop, Acting Troupe, Scheme, Village
$4: Treasure Map, Rats
I'm pretty sure BM is the best option for this board.
I would buy Pearl Diver with exactly $2 for most of the game, as it's strictly better than buying nothing (and even BM doesn't want Coppers or Estates until the game is close to the end).
I'd also expect buying an early Workshop (gaining Silvers) or possibly Treasure Maps would be a bit better than pure BM.
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Modifying the Village Idiot kingdom from the other thread:
Throne Room
Village
Acting Troupe
Underling
Fortress
Wandering Minstrel
Port
University
Walled Village
Border Village
Landscapes:
Wall
Bandit Fort
Market Towns
That would be painful. What is the best strategy?
I'm actually curious about whether the best strategy here is to just do nothing. I don't think Wall and Bandit Fort by themselves make a pure money strategy futile, but together...
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Modifying the Village Idiot kingdom from the other thread:
Throne Room
Village
Acting Troupe
Underling
Fortress
Wandering Minstrel
Port
University
Walled Village
Border Village
Landscapes:
Wall
Bandit Fort
Market Towns
That would be painful. What is the best strategy?
I'm actually curious about whether the best strategy here is to just do nothing. I don't think Wall and Bandit Fort by themselves make a pure money strategy futile, but together...
I don't think so. If your opponent does nothing, you can win the game in the very long run by buying a single Silver, then a Gold when the Silver collides with 4 coppers, and then buy Provinces whenever you have a hand of Gold, Silver and 3 Coppers. After probably more than thousand turns, you'll have bought all 8 Provinces with a 20-card deck for a total of 48+3-5-2×2= 42 points, against the opponent's 3 points.
You can speed this "minimalist" strategy up by buying a few more Golds (and maybe one more Silver to get the first Gold faster), sacrificing 3 VP for each. I suppose that's the best strategy on this board, with the optimal number of Silvers and Golds bought to be determined by simulation.
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Modifying the Village Idiot kingdom from the other thread:
Throne Room
Village
Acting Troupe
Underling
Fortress
Wandering Minstrel
Port
University
Walled Village
Border Village
Landscapes:
Wall
Bandit Fort
Market Towns
That would be painful. What is the best strategy?
I'm actually curious about whether the best strategy here is to just do nothing. I don't think Wall and Bandit Fort by themselves make a pure money strategy futile, but together...
I don't think so. If your opponent does nothing, you can win the game in the very long run by buying a single Silver, then a Gold when the Silver collides with 4 coppers, and then buy Provinces whenever you have a hand of Gold, Silver and 3 Coppers. After probably more than thousand turns, you'll have bought all 8 Provinces with a 20-card deck for a total of 48+3-5-2×2= 42 points, against the opponent's 3 points.
You can speed this "minimalist" strategy up by buying a few more Golds (and maybe one more Silver to get the first Gold faster), sacrificing 3 VP for each. I suppose that's the best strategy on this board, with the optimal number of Silvers and Golds bought to be determined by simulation.
Yes, you're right, it looks like you can buy up to 14 Silvers/Golds and still come out ahead if you buy all the Provinces. If your opponent is competing for the Provinces, though, you're limited to 9 Silvers/Golds, which is still a fair amount.