Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: SixDaysShort on June 29, 2011, 05:10:42 pm
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Could someone give a brief clarification on how throne rooming a throne room works. I thought I had a good understanding of it. But something I read recently confused me. So, I need a different description.
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Could someone give a brief clarification on how throne rooming a throne room works. I thought I had a good understanding of it. But something I read recently confused me. So, I need a different description.
Throning a Throne Room means you play it twice. Which in turn means that you pick an action card from your hand and play it twice, and then pick another action card from your hand and play that twice.
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Okay. That's what I thought. I guess that means that I just didn't understand the point that was being made in the new five best $6+ cost cards article. Thanks for the quick response, though.
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Keep in mind, throne room is mandatory - you must play an action card if you have it in hand; king's court is permissive - you could choose not to play an action card in hand.
This matters if, say, you golem into a throne room, and your hand consists of trade route, province, province.
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Or worse, Golem --> Ambassador --> Province. Yes, I just did that recently. Good times.
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Or worse, Golem --> Ambassador --> Province. Yes, I just did that recently. Good times.
Or to get you in a real dilemma: Golem -> TR -> Ambassador -> Province
(Give your opponent 2 or return 1 and give your opponent 1)?
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Oh and just something else to think about. If you have both TR and KC and only 2 action cards make sure that you go TR into KC so you get two plays of three instead of three plays of two.
I guess thats kind of obvious but ive made that mistake in the past and figured id throw it out there.
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Or worse, Golem --> Ambassador --> Province. Yes, I just did that recently. Good times.
Or to get you in a real dilemma: Golem -> TR -> Ambassador -> Province
(Give your opponent 2 or return 1 and give your opponent 1)?
head asplode
(im giving one and returning one most times but its obviously game dependent)
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I never realized the wording difference between TR and KC. Seems kind of arbitrary. Has Donald ever mentioned why there's a difference?
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I never realized the wording difference between TR and KC. Seems kind of arbitrary. Has Donald ever mentioned why there's a difference?
He's mentioned he wishes he had worded TR like he eventually worded KC.
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I never realized the wording difference between TR and KC. Seems kind of arbitrary. Has Donald ever mentioned why there's a difference?
He's mentioned he wishes he had worded TR like he eventually worded KC.
I guess that suggests amending TR to be voluntary like KC would be a legit variant for face-to-face play at least...
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As I believe Donald has suggested, one thing that helps with this IRL is keeping everything in trees when you're playing multiple Action duplicators. Let's say you Throne Room a Throne Room, and play a duplicator after that...
Peddler
/
TR
/ \
TR - TR Pawn
\
Smithy
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The thing that might confuse some newer players with TR/KC is that you have to count the +actions up properly.
You might mistakenly think, if I play 2 Laboratories, I'll get +4 cards, and have 1 action left.
Therefore, if I Throne Room a Laboratory, I'll get +4 cards, and have 1 action left, when instead you should have 2 actions after, not 1.
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As I believe Donald has suggested, one thing that helps with this IRL is keeping everything in trees when you're playing multiple Action duplicators. Let's say you Throne Room a Throne Room, and play a duplicator after that...
Peddler
/
TR
/ \
TR - TR Pawn
\
Smithy
So, to add to the confusion, if you King's Court a King's Court and then play a King's Court as one of the three actions, you'd get five actions to play three times, correct? Something like
Peddler
/
KC --Laboratory
/ \
/ Minion
KC - KC -- Pawn
\
Smithy
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Throne room is 1-2-3-4-5 actions (all played twice) for each throne room in the chain.
King's court is 1-3-5-7-9 actions (all played thrice) for each KC in the chain, so each after the first adds 2 plays of the KC itself, which is why the card is so insanely powerful.
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As I believe Donald has suggested, one thing that helps with this IRL is keeping everything in trees when you're playing multiple Action duplicators. Let's say you Throne Room a Throne Room, and play a duplicator after that...
Peddler
/
TR
/ \
TR - TR Pawn
\
Smithy
So, to add to the confusion, if you King's Court a King's Court and then play a King's Court as one of the three actions, you'd get five actions to play three times, correct? Something like
Peddler
/
KC --Laboratory
/ \
/ Minion
KC - KC -- Pawn
\
Smithy
Indeed, unless you also played more King's Courts instead of the Pawn or the Smithy.
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I have a question regarding King's Court and Duration cards:
I read that if you King's Court a Duration (let's say Wharf) the King's Court stays in the game and at the beginning of the next turn you draw 6 Cards and get +3 Buys, correct until here?
But what if you KC a KC on 3 different Durations? Will the KC affect all 3 of them, because you always return the card to your hand in between and only the 3rd stays in play next to the 3rd Duration.
What if you KC a KC on 1 Fishing Village, 1 Smithy and 1 Market (the Market last): You only see the KC lying next to the market or will you place it next to the Fishing Village and leave it in play?
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But what if you KC a KC on 3 different Durations? Will the KC affect all 3 of them, because you always return the card to your hand in between and only the 3rd stays in play next to the 3rd Duration.
Your question is a bit vague (which KC do you mean by "the KC", what returns to hand?). Try this example.
You play a first king's court on a second king's court. Both cards are now in play. Resolving the second king's court, you play a woodcutter, a caravan, and a wharf each three times. During clear up, the first king's court and the woodcutter go to the discard pile. The caravan and wharf stay in play with the second king's court as duration cards, showing that the caravan and wharf will be played three times at the start of your next turn for +9 cards and +3 buys (in total).
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The rule on multiple TRs or KCs in play might have changed at some point.
I think the clearest thing to do is to leave out all TRs and KCs that are directly used to play durations, and clean up everything else. So you would clean up the first KC, since it didn't directly target a duration.
If you KC a KC, then play 3 durations, leave out one KC touching all 3. Clean up the other one.
I'm not sure it would be wrong to leave them both out, just pick one way and go with it.
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Donald made a different ruling back in the day that was quite difficult to adjudicate, but his latest ruling is that you only keep TR & KC cards that are directly modifying an in-play Duration card.
If you play KC/KC and then drop 3 Wharves, you do clean up the first KC (but leave the 2nd one out).
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I have another question concerning this:
Let's say that given your turn you play 3 KC's on different occasions and everytime you play it with a Duration card, Fishing Village (FV) for this example.
The "rule" about TR'd and KC'd durations is that you leave the TR's and KC's in play that modify the Duration cards. So if you KC a FV once, you leave both in play. And if you play 3 KC's with 3 FV's separately, I guess you leave everything out there.
And now the question: Is it okay to rearrange your cards to this during cleanup:
FV
/
KC-KC - FV
\
FV
Instead of leaving them like this:
KC-FV KC-FV KC-FV
Rearranging would give you an extra KC in your discard pile, ready for a possibly important reshuffle. Leaving them as is needs an extra KC.
This example could be reworked to include more and more KC's, but the question can be broadened to:
Is it okay to rearrange KC's and TR's so you can still deduce which cards are KC'd / TR'd or do you have to leave everything as you played it?
I have also read that in my case you could leave only 1 KC out, but doesn't that cause confusion as to whether 1 or 3 cards have been KC'd?
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Leaving both KCs out in the stacked situation is probably a more technically correct way to handle it, and is the way that Donald had originally made the ruling. As guided said, this method is just harder to do in practice, so it has been settled on just leaving out the KC or TR that directly effected the duration card. If you stacked them, and as such, played 3 Fishing Villages all off of the same KC, I would think it is simple enough to just stack all 4 cards.
As for your question, my interpretation of the rule would be that if you played 3 KCs separately on actions, they would all need to stay out because that is the representation of what happened on the previous turn. That just seems more correct. If the draw back of not getting to clean up your KC cards is purely a side effect of needing a rule to track how the durations were played then I suppose I can see it being okay to clean up two of the KCs and stack everything up as if you had played them all on their own. However, this thought process would extend to being able to stack 4 KCs, and triple 7 duration cards, and still only leave out one KC to mark all of them.
I think leaving things as they were played makes more sense, but as long as everyone is doing the same thing in your game, I don't think it matters.
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And now the question: Is it okay to rearrange your cards to this during cleanup:
When you play KC/FV, the KC is modifying the FV, and that's that. Your question boils down to "can I pretend I did something on my turn that I didn't actually do?", and the answer is "no, of course not."
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Donald made a different ruling back in the day that was quite difficult to adjudicate, but his latest ruling is that you only keep TR & KC cards that are directly modifying an in-play Duration card.
Is there a link to the latest ruling?
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Donald made a different ruling back in the day that was quite difficult to adjudicate, but his latest ruling is that you only keep TR & KC cards that are directly modifying an in-play Duration card.
Is there a link to the latest ruling?
I will go you one better and repeat the ruling, making this post itself the latest ruling.
You only keep TR and KC in play if they directly played a duration card. If you KC a KC a duration card, the first KC is discarded, the second stays in play.
This is just the most direct interpretation of the rulebook. Briefly I said both stayed out, but the way of specifying that is convoluted and anyway did not match the rulebook.
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So a single KC can stay out with 3 duration cards (if that's the way you played them)?
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So a single KC can stay out with 3 duration cards (if that's the way you played them)?
Not only "can", it "must".
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Right well yes, but my question was more does a single KC suffice?
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Right well yes, but my question was more does a single KC suffice?
Yes, assuming that specific KC was originally used to play all 3 of those cards.
Any TR or KC that was used to directly play a Duration card that hasn't been cleaned up yet must stay out. Any other TR or KC is cleaned up.
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I will go you one better and repeat the ruling, making this post itself the latest ruling.
You only keep TR and KC in play if they directly played a duration card. If you KC a KC a duration card, the first KC is discarded, the second stays in play.
This is just the most direct interpretation of the rulebook. Briefly I said both stayed out, but the way of specifying that is convoluted and anyway did not match the rulebook.
Does anyone have a link to the ruling referred to? I mean the one where Donald originally ruled as he does here. I assume it's on BGG, but I've searched all over the place without finding it. I'm finding the previous ruling (about leaving TRs/KCs that modify TRs/KCs in play) but not the new one.