Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: spineflu on August 22, 2021, 09:31:18 pm

Title: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: spineflu on August 22, 2021, 09:31:18 pm
For week 18, we're doing route tokens

Routes are tokens with a mat
(https://trello.com/1/cards/604640b6e36d9b7c918ff484/attachments/6124fe53b840392fbc2bb95a/previews/6124fe54b840392fbc2bb982/download)
Quote
Route
When you gain a card, you may remove a token here to put it into your hand, put it onto your deck, or to trash it.

The design philosophy is that they should be kind of hard to get, since they're real useful for junk avoidance and deck consistency. They can also be given to opponents as a penalty-for-use, rather than just giving +Cards or something.

Here's some examples
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/6019de42b869588d9701fbff/604640d46764fc482db12502/58e81298be7a54d94b3059f68b596b45/image.png)(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/6019de42b869588d9701fbff/6046444a4f132f3356f43634/e3e04b9958c162b3742cb3c442aaeb38/image.png) (https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/6019de42b869588d9701fbff/604644cf0254998ea92a517b/a19869862a536f3829363a2d5ae2794e/image.png) (https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/6019de42b869588d9701fbff/6046480e1597e81e397d8bc8/4eb18bb7dd34ed942bfb67c8f8bfd9d5/image.png)
Here's where route tokens were originally posted (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20710.0)
Judgment will be next week Monday, so the 24 hours will go up on saturday night, cutoff sunday night. Have fun.
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: NoMoreFun on August 22, 2021, 10:54:54 pm
A really great mechanic that lends itself to nice simple cards!

Town Centre
Action - $4
+1 Card
+2 Actions
_____________
When you gain this, +1 Route

Rules clarification - you can resolve when gain effects in any order, so you can spend a Route token to put the Town Centre you just gained into your hand
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: emtzalex on August 23, 2021, 10:19:02 am
My Submission:
(https://i.imgur.com/Ig1uEpuh.png)

Quote from: Dacha
DACHA
[Card art is a painting showing a Russian dacha; on the right side of the painting is the building, including a wooden staircase and an awning ; on the left is a landscape, including a river and a road leading off into the distance.]
1VP
When you gain this, you may trash a Dacha from your hand for +2VP. If you don't +1 Route.
$3                                      VICTORY
                                                                                               

A more expensive Estate, if you already have one (and it's in your hand) when you buy another, you can get one more Victory point and one less dead card. Otherwise, you get a Route token (which you'll always get with your first). You can use the Route token from one to self-trash the next, but that only works for every other Dacha you buy. Or, you can use the Route token for something else and try to collide them another way (or otherwise deal with them, e.g. through Exile, TfB, or getting the +2VP with Sacrifice). In a handful of cases, it will be worth buying it for the Route token and either trashing it or having it in your deck.
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: Xen3k on August 23, 2021, 09:10:15 pm
-NOT AN ENTRY-

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51400119618_bbc6d25dc6_b.jpg)

Quote
Trade Fair - $4
Action
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+1 Route
Choose 2 different things: +1 Card, +1 Villager, +1 Coffers.
Each other player gets the remaining thing.

A build your own Market/Village. It is discounted due to giving other players something nice. I am not sure if both of the base + 1 Action and Buy are needed. I am also not sure if there is one combination of choices that will be the obvious best. Possible stronger than intended interaction with Hand-Size attacks, but handing players cards before such attacks will just make their remaining hand optimal, so that may not be an issue. Feedback is appreciated.

Edit: Changing it a bit after the feedback from segura. Trying out the easy solution of forcing the player to pick the weakest of the 4 options. If it still seems too good I would want to remove the + Action or + Buy next.

Edit 2: Entry withdrawn. This does not showcase the mechanic to my liking.

Old Versions
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51398488766_0e7fd04efe_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: The Alchemist on August 24, 2021, 09:08:43 am
Quick grammar nitpick for the wording on the mat: the sentence is missing parallel structure.

It should either be:

Quote
... to put it into your hand, put it onto your deck, or trash it.

or

Quote
... to either put it into your hand or onto your deck, or trash it.

As it it is now it reads "to put it into your hand, [put it] onto your deck, or [put it] trash it", but the phrase "to put it trash it" doesn't make sense. An alternative reading is "to put it into your hand, [to] onto your deck, or [to] trash it." and likewise "to onto your deck" doesn't make sense. Since both readings are incorrect, it needs to be changed.
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: X-tra on August 24, 2021, 09:26:53 am
Quote from: The Alchemist on August 24, 2021, 09:08:43 am
Quick grammar nitpick for the wording on the mat: the sentence is missing parallel structure.

It should either be:

Quote
... to put it into your hand, put it onto your deck, or trash it.

or

Quote
... to either put it into your hand or onto your deck, or trash it.

As it it is now it reads "to put it into your hand, [put it] onto your deck, or [put it] trash it", but the phrase "to put it trash it" doesn't make sense. An alternative reading is "to put it into your hand, [to] onto your deck, or [to] trash it." and likewise "to onto your deck" doesn't make sense. Since both readings are incorrect, it needs to be changed.

It could also say "or to trash it" for the last option.

Anyway, here's my entry:

(https://i.postimg.cc/D2FjNZcv/Guard-Tower-v1.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rqmjcQj0/Guard-Tower-v2.png)
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: spineflu on August 24, 2021, 10:10:15 am
Quote from: The Alchemist on August 24, 2021, 09:08:43 am
Quick grammar nitpick for the wording on the mat: the sentence is missing parallel structure.

It should either be:

Quote
... to put it into your hand, put it onto your deck, or trash it.

or

Quote
... to either put it into your hand or onto your deck, or trash it.

As it it is now it reads "to put it into your hand, [put it] onto your deck, or [put it] trash it", but the phrase "to put it trash it" doesn't make sense. An alternative reading is "to put it into your hand, [to] onto your deck, or [to] trash it." and likewise "to onto your deck" doesn't make sense. Since both readings are incorrect, it needs to be changed.

ok
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: X-tra on August 24, 2021, 02:24:14 pm
Quote from: segura on August 24, 2021, 02:05:19 pm
I don’t get this. Ignoring cases where players use Route tokens for other stuff, it is basically a one-shot Curser. Once the Curses are out, it even hands out good stuff.

It should say: "And if they did, they get +1 Route.", to tackle the empty Curse pile thingy. I'll sketch a V2 soon-ish.
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: The Alchemist on August 24, 2021, 02:46:08 pm
Quote from: X-tra on August 24, 2021, 09:26:53 am

It could also say "or to trash it" for the last option.


Ah, actually as it is now "to put it into your hand, put it onto your deck, or to trash it" is still incorrect, now that "to" before trash shouldn't be there. You have to break up the series into separate clauses and see if each one individually makes sense.

It needs to be either:
to... put into your hand
       put onto your deck
       trash it

or
to put into your hand
to put onto your deck
to trash it

So right now just the last "to" needs to be removed (or add one in the middle). Sorry for the grammar nazi-ing.
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: Aquila on August 24, 2021, 06:24:03 pm
I agree with keeping things simple here, Route tokens present a lot of options by themselves. 3 different functions, with the use-it-or-save-it dilemma that tokens bring!
Here's something that tries to bring out their raw strategizing:

(https://trello.com/1/cards/612389ed34f2c6827826a365/attachments/61256ce1255a3f1b4bf4b10a/download/Ringleader.png)
Quote
Ringleader - Action, $3 cost.
+1 Action
+ $1
+1 Route
-
When you trash this, gain 2 Spoils.
Non-terminal Route gaining Action cards are innately useful for workshops and the buy phase. This idea adds extra impetus to the trash function (on itself) and gain to hand function (Spoils gains; this could happen outside of turn). Those Spoils could lead to a nice purchase to Route somewhere good too.
The Ringleader of a marauder band was my thinking for flavour, he knows the routes to follow and carries spoil around.
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: Xen3k on August 25, 2021, 07:12:31 pm
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51401865717_6e99a14994_b.jpg)

Quote
Navel Charts - $2+
Treasure
$1
+1 Buy
----
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, +1 Route.

I was not happy with Trade Show (which I will repurpose later) as I did not think it properly showcased Route tokens, so this is my new attempt. A cheap Treasure that give extra buys and allows you to overpay to get Route tokens. A nifty trick is that later in the game you can buy a Navel Charts and use a Route token to trash it so you only get the new Route tokens you overpay for. Not sure if it is actually useful, but hopefully more interesting. Feedback is appreciated.
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: fika monster on August 26, 2021, 04:43:12 am
What if Woodcutter were a route card?

(https://i.imgur.com/O44DlCR.png)
Quote
Woodcutter - 4$ - Action
+1 Buy
+2 Route
Gain a silver to hand.

A woodcutter with more possibilities. You can spend a token to put the silver into your hand and make it a normal woodcutter, having one left to either topdeck a card or maybe stave off a curse attack! Or if you have plenty of actions, you can then worksop a village into your hand! Or maybe just save all the Route tokens for later...
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: fika monster on August 26, 2021, 07:42:16 am
Quote from: segura on August 26, 2021, 07:04:40 am
Explorer is weak and thus not the best benchmark but this appears to be better. It is strictly better in two aspects (extra Buy, extra Route token if you gain the Silver to hand) and only potentially worse (when Explorer gains Gold)
hm true
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: The Alchemist on August 26, 2021, 08:42:22 am
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/449166977991180299/880427895712010310/Roadsmen.png?width=438&height=676)

Roadsmen: Workshop/Banquet variant where you can use the routes to either get rid of the unwanted coppers this hands out, or to get the gained card to hand, or both!
Options boil down to basically gain a 6 and a copper, or gain a 5, or gain a 4 to your hand, or gain a <=3 to your hand and save a route for later.

Considerations: thinking of maybe upping the restriction to "per 1 more than 2 it costs" and decreasing the cost of the card to $4, since $5 gainer for 5 on its own is pretty good, and this is optional sculptor without the villager on top of that.
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: spineflu on August 28, 2021, 01:08:41 pm
Putting the 24 hour notice in now. I'll close out around 1 tomorrow afternoon and judge after that, which yall can expect on monday.
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: Timinou on August 28, 2021, 10:37:59 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/mpk8I0c.png)

Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: mathdude on August 28, 2021, 11:29:55 pm
Master of None
Action - $5
+1 Route
Gain a card costing up to $3.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
You may trash a card from your hand to gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

(A multi-purpose card similar to Jack of All Trades).
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: DunnoItAll on August 29, 2021, 09:52:31 am
(https://i.imgur.com/Z4BM3SC.png)
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: spineflu on August 29, 2021, 01:58:06 pm
submissions closed
pop back tomorrow for judgment
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: spineflu on August 30, 2021, 09:15:09 am
This was pretty quick to judge. I guess there's a meta-lesson here compared to my judging on 'wonders' - simple mechanics are easier to assess.


Town Centre • NoMoreFun
This is a really solid, simple way to demonstrate the Route mechanic- you can get that village right away, it synergizes extremely well with $4-gainers.


Dacha • emtzalex
I feel like this is one of the sadder entries - a more expensive estate that can sacrifice itself. That low-VP / low-cost region is tough to build in due to things like Tunnel being 2VP for $3. I think letting it trash any Victory card for +2VP might be a way to salvage it - sort of a mini-Farmland then, where it can help deal with your starting estates.


Trade Fair • Xen3k :: Withdrawn
I know this wasn't your entry, but I actually really liked this one, especially the old version - drop the +Action, so giving villagers isn't as automatic, and it becomes a very interesting card. I hear what segura was saying about giving routes as the "easy mode" for it, but i suspect that will only go so far in a game with junkers or a game with solid kingdom treasure options (gainable ones like Stockpile) that someone else can get and play right away.


Guard Tower • X-tra
This is an interesting riff on Familiar. I think it's way too powerful for $5, even if it doesn't scale well in a deck (ie, having multiples hurts its attack ability, not "it plays differently with different numbers of players"). It's interesting in a "I don't know when I'd want to use this" way. But yeah, I don't know if there's a good price for this to be. $5 is too cheap - compare/contrast with any of the $5 peddlers - and $6 seems too expensive, considering it helps other players/doesn't scale in-deck.


Ringleader • Aquila
I like this. Good use of spoils, good use of Routes, not busted if you open double, this is really nice.


Naval Charts • Xen3k
I am a sucker for overpay effects. I think you'd almost want to make this a $3+overpay event, since (situations where you care about the +Buy aside) you just want the tokens and would spend an extra $1 to trash out the charts themselves. Still, this is a novel way to do this.


Ore Gatherer • fika monster
I think segura's right on this, it needs to be a $5, solely because Explorer is a $5. If you dropped the silver gaining, I could see it at $4. Or if you break design protocol and put the silver gain above the Route gain, so that you can't always gain the Silver to-hand.


Roadsmen • The Alchemist
I get that we're living in a post-Menagerie world and there's now plenty of ways to get potion and debt cost cards in your deck without paying for them (kiln, transport, disciple, etc). However all of those are multi-step processes. This just gains City Quarters, full stop, with no penalties. It even gains them to your hand or top-deck. That's something that should be patched or fixed.


Tinker • Timinou
Tinker has some interesting synergies - gain it, get a curse to the top of your deck (one of the routes), spread the love around with this - but I'm pretty confident this would be a hubris card. It's too many steps to set up (although the route tokens can help with this), and/or the blind remodel is going to hit your province, same as the zombie mason.


Master of None • mathdude
I was ready to tear into this for being too similar to JoAT, but honestly, the only change I'd make to it is getting rid of the remodel to just say "you may trash a Curse or Copper" or "you may trash a card whose cost is $0". The $1 step isn't broad use case. I like that this can gain the $3 card to hand but that acts against the draw-to-5 aspect. Really well done.


Usher • DunnoItAll
So this is good at running down piles. And general from-trash-gaining. And making you take –VP in exchange for routes. But I'm not sure when I'd actually buy it. I'm interested to hear what you think the use case for this card is; personally, i'm not sold on it, and I think it'll be a dead pile (especially being terminal) most games.


Without further ado:
Honorable Mention: Master of None (mathdude)
Runner Up: Town Centre (NoMoreFun)
Winner: Ringleader (Aquila)

Thank you everyone for your submissions.
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: Aquila on August 30, 2021, 05:38:22 pm
Thanks for the win and the contest spineflu. Routes are a fine mechanic if they're not doing too much and always overloading players with options; yet, all of the functions have a part and taking one of them away would seem to take their elegance and simplicity to understand away.

I don't think I'll be able to host the next contest, but I did have an idea for it. Whoever does host next can choose their own idea of course, but if they're stuck for inspiration:

In Star Realms, some cards you buy to add to your deck can optionally trash (scrap) themselves from play for an extra bonus at any time later during the turn. Why not bring that to Dominion? Like:
Quote
Minding Village - Action, $5 cost.
+1 Card
+2 Actions
-
[Flame icon]: + $2.
Mining Village, but you can choose to pop it for $2 later during your Action phase or Buy phase, or right away just the same. After you finish playing any card (including itself), you can use what I've called flame abilities (because I fancied the idea of expanding on the elements after the Aquatic contest). Between trashing the card and returning it to its pile, I'm undecided.

Feel free to use it, park it in a store of ideas for contests, or leave it.
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: spineflu on August 30, 2021, 05:50:48 pm
Cool, NoMoreFun, I guess you're up.
Title: Re: Fan Mechanics Week 18: From A to B
Post by: NoMoreFun on August 31, 2021, 01:06:08 am
Quote from: spineflu on August 30, 2021, 05:50:48 pm
Cool, NoMoreFun, I guess you're up.

Thank you Aquila. I like your idea, but my previous experience judging a contest for an idea that wasn't my own was difficult, as I wasn't quite sure of the intent and what would make a good version of the idea.

I will make a new topic now with my own idea.