Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: BBobb on March 09, 2021, 01:38:29 am
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I just wanted to list out all of the ways that you can guarantee to get a $5 at any time before your fifth turn since it is very important as there are many very powerful $5 cost actions. I think it is mostly going to be events tho since most cards will just miss the shuffle. Also, this is assuming worst shuffle luck. If you think something should be removed, added, or don't understand why something is on here, you can put it down below. Anyway, here is the list I've made:
Events:
Borrow
Save
Expedition
Ferry
Advance (this is ONLY in shelter games)
Banquet
Desperation
Transport (though it technically doesn't gain the action, it puts it in your deck)
Bargain
Donate
Enhance (ONLY IN SHELTER GAMES)
Banish
Scouting Party
Cards:
Baker (setup)
Overlord (though not really, via emulation)
Ghost Town
Pooka (Cursed Gold)
Flag Bearer (only if no one takes the flag from you)
Silk Merchant
Animal Fair (ONLY IN SHELTER GAMES)
Fisherman (itself)
Night Watchman
Great Hall (ONLY IN SHELTER GAMES)
Projects:
Pageant
Exploration
Sinister Plot
City Gate
Ways (all of these require shelters, namely, necropolis):
Way of the Horse
Way of the Sheep
Way of the Otter
Way of the Owl
Way of the Pig
Way of the Squirrel
Way of the Seal
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I just wanted to list out all of the ways that you can guarantee to get a $5 at any time before your fourth turn
Do you really mean before the fourth turn? (i.e., by the end of turn 3) Because a lot of the things you listed don't seem to function then (Save, Expedition, Ghost Town, Flag Bearer, Silk Merchant, Pageant, Exploration, Sinister Plot)
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I just wanted to list out all of the ways that you can guarantee to get a $5 at any time before your fourth turn
Do you really mean before the fourth turn? (i.e., by the end of turn 3) Because a lot of the things you listed don't seem to function then (Save, Expedition, Ghost Town, Flag Bearer, Silk Merchant, Pageant, Exploration, Sinister Plot)
Oops, no. I meant before the fifth turn. I'll change that.
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advance also works with Nomad Camp games.
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advance also works with Nomad Camp games.
Yeah, I'm sure that there are other cases. This is just a list if it were a single card kingdom (other than shelters).
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I think the Ways of Horse, Otter and Owl do work if you buy a Silver turn 1 and play Necropolis as the Way on T1/2 (unless you open 2/5, in which case you trivially get a $5). It gives you a six-card hand when used on Necropolis. In case this gives you the other two Shelters and just 4 Coppers, you still get $5 in turn 3 with the Silver bought.
Pig works e.g. with opening Silver/- (or Double Silver) and only pigging the Necropolis on the second shuffle. Similarly, Great Hall guarantees you a $5 card by turn 4 - you open GH/Silver, trashing Hovel and getting you effectively a 10-card deck with total economy $9 after turn 2.
Mouse with any terminal Silver works as well as Sheep.
Edit: Multiple corrections/additions.
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I think the Ways of Horse, Otter and Owl do work if you buy a Silver turn 1 and play Necropolis as the Way on T1/2 (unless you open 2/5, in which case you trivially get a $5). It gives you a six-card hand when used on Necropolis. In case this gives you the other two Shelters and just 4 Coppers, you still get $5 in turn 3 with the Silver bought.
Pig works e.g. with opening Silver/- (or Double Silver) and only pigging the Necropolis on the second shuffle. Similarly, Great Hall guarantees you a $5 card by turn 4 - you open GH/Silver, trashing Hovel and getting you effectively a 10-card deck with total economy $9 after turn 2.
Mouse with any terminal Silver works as well as Sheep.
Edit: Multiple corrections/additions.
Thanks! When I was doing the ways, I was kinda tired, so I wasn't really sure if they would actually work. This works. I'll update my post.
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It's unclear to me what Plan is doing on the list... I mean, you could have a board without Action supply piles, then clearly Plan will do nothing.
Also, Night Watchman should be on there.
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It's unclear to me what Plan is doing on the list... I mean, you could have a board without Action supply piles, then clearly Plan will do nothing.
Also, Night Watchman should be on there.
If you have a board without any Action supply piles then it becomes incredibly difficult to "guarantee a $5 action by the fourth turn".
But in general, many of the things listed, especially the cards, depend on the rest of the board.
Eg if your opponent plays Fortune Teller before your 3rd turn, you might start your 3rd and 4th turns with just CCEEE.
I started compiling a list of cards (and WELPs) which would prevent Silk Merchant from guaranteeing $5:
- Tax
- Ill-Gotten Gains
- Messenger
- Fortune Teller
- Bureaucrat
- Militia
- etc
I think BBobb you need to clarify what boards are under consideration.
Suppose X is an item from your list. Which kingdom does it need to work in?
- Festival + X + nothing else
- An Action >=$5 of your choice + X + nothing else
- An Action >=$5 of your choice + X + rest of the kingdom chosen by someone trying to make X not work
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I think the Ways of Horse, Otter and Owl do work if you buy a Silver turn 1 and play Necropolis as the Way on T1/2 (unless you open 2/5, in which case you trivially get a $5). It gives you a six-card hand when used on Necropolis. In case this gives you the other two Shelters and just 4 Coppers, you still get $5 in turn 3 with the Silver bought.
Pig works e.g. with opening Silver/- (or Double Silver) and only pigging the Necropolis on the second shuffle. Similarly, Great Hall guarantees you a $5 card by turn 4 - you open GH/Silver, trashing Hovel and getting you effectively a 10-card deck with total economy $9 after turn 2.
Mouse with any terminal Silver works as well as Sheep.
Edit: Multiple corrections/additions.
Thanks! When I was doing the ways, I was kinda tired, so I wasn't really sure if they would actually work. This works. I'll update my post.
You're welcome. Actually, I also doubted that these would always work, so I went through the details to find that they do. ;-)
You can also add Way of the Seal and Way of the Squirrel (with Necropolis) to the list - opening double Silver and topdecking a Silver resp. drawing two cards for turn 2/3 both guarantee that you'll get a $5 hand on turn 4 at the latest.
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It's unclear to me what Plan is doing on the list... I mean, you could have a board without Action supply piles, then clearly Plan will do nothing.
Also, Night Watchman should be on there.
If you have a board without any Action supply piles then it becomes incredibly difficult to "guarantee a $5 action by the fourth turn".
Sure ;D. But even when there is a $5 Action on the board, I don't see how Plan is supposed to give it to you by turn 4, as it doesn't to anything before you somehow get to $5 without it.
(...)
I think BBobb you need to clarify what boards are under consideration.
Suppose X is an item from your list. Which kingdom does it need to work in?
- Festival + X + nothing else
- An Action >=$5 of your choice + X + nothing else
- An Action >=$5 of your choice + X + rest of the kingdom chosen by someone trying to make X not work
Given that BBobb's list includes Fisherman (which can't guarantee to gain any $5 Action other than itself) and several cards like Silk Merchant which (as you show) can be prevented to get to $5 by several attacks, I assume it is meant to be the second bullet point from your list.
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It's unclear to me what Plan is doing on the list... I mean, you could have a board without Action supply piles, then clearly Plan will do nothing.
Also, Night Watchman should be on there.
If you have a board without any Action supply piles then it becomes incredibly difficult to "guarantee a $5 action by the fourth turn".
edge case: actually I don't think there is an edge case
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It's unclear to me what Plan is doing on the list... I mean, you could have a board without Action supply piles, then clearly Plan will do nothing.
Also, Night Watchman should be on there.
If you have a board without any Action supply piles then it becomes incredibly difficult to "guarantee a $5 action by the fourth turn".
edge case: actually I don't think there is an edge case
Maybe something with Castles; the Castles pile is not an action supply pile, but Small Castle is a $5 action card.
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It's unclear to me what Plan is doing on the list... I mean, you could have a board without Action supply piles, then clearly Plan will do nothing.
Also, Night Watchman should be on there.
If you have a board without any Action supply piles then it becomes incredibly difficult to "guarantee a $5 action by the fourth turn".
But in general, many of the things listed, especially the cards, depend on the rest of the board.
Eg if your opponent plays Fortune Teller before your 3rd turn, you might start your 3rd and 4th turns with just CCEEE.
I started compiling a list of cards (and WELPs) which would prevent Silk Merchant from guaranteeing $5:
- Tax
- Ill-Gotten Gains
- Messenger
- Fortune Teller
- Bureaucrat
- Militia
- etc
I think BBobb you need to clarify what boards are under consideration.
Suppose X is an item from your list. Which kingdom does it need to work in?
- Festival + X + nothing else
- An Action >=$5 of your choice + X + nothing else
- An Action >=$5 of your choice + X + rest of the kingdom chosen by someone trying to make X not work
You guys are right, plan shouldn't be on the list. I was intending it to basically be:
The card/WELP itself (obviously)
a random $5 action
single player
with Shelters or not
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It's unclear to me what Plan is doing on the list... I mean, you could have a board without Action supply piles, then clearly Plan will do nothing.
Also, Night Watchman should be on there.
If you have a board without any Action supply piles then it becomes incredibly difficult to "guarantee a $5 action by the fourth turn".
Sure ;D. But even when there is a $5 Action on the board, I don't see how Plan is supposed to give it to you by turn 4, as it doesn't to anything before you somehow get to $5 without it.
It would require a terminal Silver that costs $3 on the kingdom, so, yeah, it probably shouldn't be up there I'll remove it. (if there is a terminal silver, though, then there is a guarantee that you can reach $5.)
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It's unclear to me what Plan is doing on the list... I mean, you could have a board without Action supply piles, then clearly Plan will do nothing.
Also, Night Watchman should be on there.
If you have a board without any Action supply piles then it becomes incredibly difficult to "guarantee a $5 action by the fourth turn".
Sure ;D. But even when there is a $5 Action on the board, I don't see how Plan is supposed to give it to you by turn 4, as it doesn't to anything before you somehow get to $5 without it.
It would require a terminal Silver that costs $3 on the kingdom, so, yeah, it probably shouldn't be up there I'll remove it. (if there is a terminal silver, though, then there is a guarantee that you can reach $5.)
Right, Plan+terminal Silver works. But as there exist only 11 kingdom cards that are terminal silvers costing $3 or less, most boards won't have one. OTOH, a terminal silver is still more likely to be present than Shelters in a random kingdom (if you go by the recommended rule for when to include those).
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It's unclear to me what Plan is doing on the list... I mean, you could have a board without Action supply piles, then clearly Plan will do nothing.
Also, Night Watchman should be on there.
If you have a board without any Action supply piles then it becomes incredibly difficult to "guarantee a $5 action by the fourth turn".
edge case: actually I don't think there is an edge case
Maybe something with Castles; the Castles pile is not an action supply pile, but Small Castle is a $5 action card.
It's still incredibly difficult, even if it is possible, which doesn't contradict the original claim.
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Donate should definitely be on the list.
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Donate should definitely be on the list.
How does guarantee? You are probably right, I just want to confirm (and my brain isn't functioning enough to think about it).
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Donate should definitely be on the list.
How does guarantee? You are probably right, I just want to confirm (and my brain isn't functioning enough to think about it).
Works for 3/4 and 4/3:
Turn 1 - Buy silver
Turn 2 - Donate down to silver and 4 copper (4 or 5 debt)
Turn 3 - Pay off debt
Turn 4 - Buy 5 cost action
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Donate should definitely be on the list.
How does guarantee? You are probably right, I just want to confirm (and my brain isn't functioning enough to think about it).
Works for 3/4 and 4/3:
Turn 1 - Buy silver
Turn 2 - Donate down to silver and 4 copper (4 or 5 debt)
Turn 3 - Pay off debt
Turn 4 - Buy 5 cost action
You can be even faster:
Turn 1: Buy Donate, trash down to 5 Coppers
Turn 2: pay off debt
Turn 3: Buy $5 Action.
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Donate should definitely be on the list.
How does guarantee? You are probably right, I just want to confirm (and my brain isn't functioning enough to think about it).
Works for 3/4 and 4/3:
Turn 1 - Buy silver
Turn 2 - Donate down to silver and 4 copper (4 or 5 debt)
Turn 3 - Pay off debt
Turn 4 - Buy 5 cost action
You can be even faster:
Turn 1: Buy Donate, trash down to 5 Coppers
Turn 2: pay off debt
Turn 3: Buy $5 Action.
That doesn't confirm getting a $5 Action by your fourth turn, but trashing down to 4 coppers (on a 4/3 or 5/2 split) does.
Edit: Wait, that also doesn't work...I'm not seeing how Donate helps here, unassisted.
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That doesn't confirm getting a $5 Action by your fourth turn, but trashing down to 4 coppers (on a 4/3 or 5/2 split) does.
Edit: Wait, that also doesn't work...I'm not seeing how Donate helps here, unassisted.
I am confused. I posted a process that always lets you buy a $5 Action by turn 3. Do you object to that? Or are you trying to point out that you won't necessarily play the Action by turn 4? This is true, but it's not the objective of this thread.
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That doesn't confirm getting a $5 Action by your fourth turn, but trashing down to 4 coppers (on a 4/3 or 5/2 split) does.
Edit: Wait, that also doesn't work...I'm not seeing how Donate helps here, unassisted.
I am confused. I posted a process that always lets you buy a $5 Action by turn 3. Do you object to that? Or are you trying to point out that you won't necessarily play the Action by turn 4? This is true, but it's not the objective of this thread.
Oh! It seems I misunderstood the point of the thread then. Thanks for clarifying!
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Maybe something with Castles; the Castles pile is not an action supply pile, but Small Castle is a $5 action card.
I've just figured out another way to gain a $5 Action without any Action supply piles:
Necropolis in starting deck; Way of the Mouse with Black Market set aside.
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Donate should definitely be on the list.
How does guarantee? You are probably right, I just want to confirm (and my brain isn't functioning enough to think about it).
Works for 3/4 and 4/3:
Turn 1 - Buy silver
Turn 2 - Donate down to silver and 4 copper (4 or 5 debt)
Turn 3 - Pay off debt
Turn 4 - Buy 5 cost action
Thanks! I'll add it.
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I've just added Enhance (ONLY IN SHELTER GAMES), which I think always works?
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I've just added Enhance (ONLY IN SHELTER GAMES), which I think always works?
Yes, you're guaranteed to have a hand with at least $3 and a non-Victory shelter if you open 3/4.
The following Events/Projects also work:
Scouting Party: Open Double Silver, buy SP on T3 unless you have $5+ or three Estates/Shelters in hand (in which cases you don't need it to get $5 on T3/4).
Banish: Open Silver/Exile (in any order) and exile the Estate/Shelter from your $4 hand.
City Gate: Open Silver (or double Silver) and buy CG on T3 unless you have $5+ or three Estates/Shelters in hand (in which cases you don't need it to get $5 on T3/4).
I think the list of Events and Projects is now complete with these additions, as I've considered each of them that can be bought with at most $4 or with debt and wasn't yet listed. (I'm not quite certain in the case of Pursue, but I think you can't make it work in all cases, no matter whether you try to Pursue silvers on T1, T2 or T3.)
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Pixie/Goat also works - buy Silver and trash an Estate on your first shuffle.
That's the only kingdom card I found that's not yet on BBobb's list.
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Thanks, Holger! I'll add those to my list.
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I think you can remove the "only itself" caveat from Animal Fair.
If you gain an Animal Fair by trashing Necropolis on one opening turn, and buy nothing on the other, you have a 10 card deck, so one of your 5 card hands will have Animal Fair and at least one Copper.
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I think you can remove the "only itself" caveat from Animal Fair.
If you gain an Animal Fair by trashing Necropolis on one opening turn, and buy nothing on the other, you have a 10 card deck, so one of your 5 card hands will have Animal Fair and at least one Copper.
Thanks! Will do.