Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: DooWopDJ on December 13, 2018, 01:59:42 pm
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There are 3 cards that have the phrase '...At the start of Clean-up...' and I am trying to determine if the order of play of 3 three cards matters (may involve some Lost Cards rules).
Improve
"+2 Coins
At the start of Clean-up, you may trash an Action card you would discard from play this turn, to gain a card costing exactly +1 Coin more than it."
Scheme
"+1 Card
+1 Action
At the start of Clean-up this turn, you may choose an Action card you have in play. If you discard it from play this turn, put it on your deck."
Walled Village
"+1 Card
+2 Actions
At the start of Clean-up, if you have this and no more than one other Action card in play, you may put this on top of your deck."
What is the best order of 'Clean-up'? Note: All 3 cards have been played (and are still in my play area).
Is the 'Clean-up' rule still 'in effect', even if the card that I 'trash' and/or 'discard' (due to discarding for clean-up purposes), so that Walled Village's 'Clean-up' rule is now 'valid' since I no longer have 3 'Action' cards 'in play' (since I either discarded or trashed one of the 3 cards)?
Additionally, can the Trash pile be 're-ordered' by any player at any time during the game (to improve speed of game play for when you have to go through the trash, although I cannot cite an example here).
Thanks
-Doowopdj
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The trash pile is explicitly not ordered, so do as you will with it.
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Scheme (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Scheme) has new wording in second edition that does not involve the start of cleanup.
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Scheme makes no difference here, whether with old or new wording. By the time you discard a card, and then optionally topdeck it with Scheme, it's no longer start of Clean-up, so it's too late to do anything with Walled Village.
But the interesting question is the interaction between Walled Village and Improve. The question is, what does "At the start of Clean-up, if you have this and no more than one other Action card in play" mean, timing-wise?
Let's say you have 3 Action cards in play. Both Walled Village and Improve trigger at the start of Clean-up, so you can choose the order. If you choose WV first, there's no question, you can't topdeck it. But if you choose Improve first, and trash a card, you have 2 Actions in play. Can you topdeck WV now? I would say yes, since it's still technically start of clean-up - you're still in the process of doing "start of clean-up" abilities.
After you've resolved every "start of clean-up" ability, you continue with clean-up, which means discarding cards. Scheme triggers now. As I said, it's no longer start of clean-up. (Scheme v.1 also triggered at start of clean-up, but all you did was choose then.)
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Old wording Scheme had a strictly worse option that you could choose; while new wording Scheme has removed that option.
Let's say you had a Rats in play, and you had played an Improve. With second edition Scheme, you trash Rats with Improve and draw a card. This gives you more information to use when deciding which card to top-deck.
With first edition Scheme, you could have chosen to resolve Scheme before Improve, thus having to choose a card to top-deck before seeing what you draw from trashing Rats.
So, we have a situation where granting an extra choice actually makes a card strictly worse! Because the extra choice granted by first edition Scheme is a strictly worse choice; thus the only thing the choice does is allow a player to make the wrong choice.
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Even before Improve, old Scheme was worse because of more options, in a much simpler way: You could choose a Duration that would stay in play.
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Encampment potentially also does something at the start of Cleanup, but this rarely interacts with the other effects (you might want to put it on its pile on top of a Plunder before Improving a Poor House, for example).
I think the best order is Encampments, then Improve then Walled Village.
Innovation might mix this up, if the Improved card can be played, but I can't come up with a scenario where this makes Walled Village after Improve/Innovation not topdeckable when it was before.
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Encampment potentially also does something at the start of Cleanup, but this rarely interacts with the other effects (you might want to put it on its pile on top of a Plunder before Improving a Poor House, for example).
I think the best order is Encampments, then Improve then Walled Village.
Innovation might mix this up, if the Improved card can be played, but I can't come up with a scenario where this makes Walled Village after Improve/Innovation not topdeckable when it was before.
Duplicate! You have WV and Improve in play. You could now topdeck WV. Let's say you don't. You Improve the Improve into a Monument and play it, then you Duplicate the Monument. You now have 3 Actions in play, so you can't topdeck the WV.
EDIT: or Royal Carriage, to replay the Monument.
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But the interesting question is the interaction between Walled Village and Improve. The question is, what does "At the start of Clean-up, if you have this and no more than one other Action card in play" mean, timing-wise?
Let's say you have 3 Action cards in play. Both Walled Village and Improve trigger at the start of Clean-up, so you can choose the order. If you choose WV first, there's no question, you can't topdeck it. But if you choose Improve first, and trash a card, you have 2 Actions in play. Can you topdeck WV now? I would say yes, since it's still technically start of clean-up - you're still in the process of doing "start of clean-up" abilities.
The wiki covers this. Walled Village's trigger is "at the start of clean-up"; none of the rest is checked until you resolve it, and it only matters what the board state is then.
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But the interesting question is the interaction between Walled Village and Improve. The question is, what does "At the start of Clean-up, if you have this and no more than one other Action card in play" mean, timing-wise?
Let's say you have 3 Action cards in play. Both Walled Village and Improve trigger at the start of Clean-up, so you can choose the order. If you choose WV first, there's no question, you can't topdeck it. But if you choose Improve first, and trash a card, you have 2 Actions in play. Can you topdeck WV now? I would say yes, since it's still technically start of clean-up - you're still in the process of doing "start of clean-up" abilities.
The wiki covers this. Walled Village's trigger is "at the start of clean-up"; none of the rest is checked until you resolve it, and it only matters what the board state is then.
Which, indeed, is consistent with the ruling (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19196.msg776789#msg776789) on Wine Merchant.