Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Puzzles and Challenges => Topic started by: theory on February 13, 2012, 02:45:31 pm
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Let's assume the Silver pile is infinite.
Here is my solution:
1 Trader is in hand.
Play 10 Hoards, 10 Hagglers, 10 Horns of Plenty, 10 IGG.
Each HoP gains a Cache, gaining 20 Silvers on the Coppers
Each IGG gains a Copper, for another 10 Silvers instead of 10 Coppers
Buy 1 Farmland
ON BUY: Hoard gains 10 Golds, you get 10 Silvers
ON BUY: Farmland lets you trash a card from hand and replace it with something (which becomes 1 Silver)
ON BUY: Haggler gains 10 Silvers
ON BUY: Farmland has 30 Embargo tokens on it thanks to KC-Embargo (theoretically, this can be infinitely high if Embargo was trashed on a Possession turn, but let's ignore Possession like in all puzzles) -> Gain 30 Silvers instead of 30 Curses
ON GAIN: Farmland is swapped into a Silver
82
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One nitpick:
ON BUY: Farmland lets you trash a card from hand and replace it with something (which becomes 1 Silver)
As Farmland's trashing language is "exactly $2 more," for this to work you'd need a card in hand that costs $1. However, this just requires adding a Highway into the mix of cards played during the turn, so Silvers cost $2 and you can convert a Copper or Curse into one.
EDIT: ftl is right. My bad for thinking hard, but not quite hard enough!
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As Farmland's trashing language is "exactly $2 more," for this to work you'd need a card in hand that costs $1. However, this just requires adding a Highway into the mix of cards played during the turn, so Silvers cost $2 and you can convert a Copper or Curse into one.
The trader in hand makes anything a silver anyway.
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An addition:
EDIT: 100% CREDIT TO THE CAPTAIN
During buy phase, play 10 Ventures, each of which reveals 12 Tunnels. There's another 120 Silvers. However, in reality, you can't reveal all 12 Tunnels each time.
Unfortunately this also raises some problems of how big this Kingdom is. I suppose you could always get your KC and Trader out of a BM though.
Venture / Tunnel / Hoard / Haggler / IGG / Farmland / Cache / Black Market (KC, Trader) / Embargo / [+Actions that also gains cards into your hand?]
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Before someone else comes in:
Venture can flip tunnels. I'm too lazy to figure it out, but there's at least 24 tunnel flips in there. (Venture #1 flips 12 tunnels (no other coins in deck), Venture #2 flips 12 tunnels and then hits a silver. Not sure if any of the other ventures can make it through the stack of remaining 11 silvers though.
Side rules question: if you play a venture when you only have tunnels in deck, will the gained golds enter the deck as the tunnels are discarded (and then gold / silver gained)? Will that first venture hit a gold / silver?
Edit: Ninja'd by theory - who gave me 0% credit for his oversight when I brought it to his attention in non forum space.
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No, you flip over all of the Tunnels first, then stop flipping when your deck is empty. You discard all of the Tunnels at once (well, not exactly at once, but one right after another), gaining the Golds, but the effect of Venture is already over, so you don't get to play any of the gained Golds.
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Venture can flip tunnels. I'm too lazy to figure it out, but there's at least 24 tunnel flips in there. (Venture #1 flips 12 tunnels (no other coins in deck), Venture #2 flips 12 tunnels and then hits a silver. Not sure if any of the other ventures can make it through the stack of remaining 11 silvers though.
You could get a third run through the 12 Tunnels if you play 10 Loans after playing your second Venture. The Loans discard through 10 of those 11 Silvers. Venture #3 hits the last Silver, and then Venture #4 plows through the Tunnels again. So that's another 36 Silvers.
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Venture can flip tunnels. I'm too lazy to figure it out, but there's at least 24 tunnel flips in there. (Venture #1 flips 12 tunnels (no other coins in deck), Venture #2 flips 12 tunnels and then hits a silver. Not sure if any of the other ventures can make it through the stack of remaining 11 silvers though.
You could get a third run through the 12 Tunnels if you play 10 Loans after playing your second Venture. The Loans discard through 10 of those 11 Silvers. Venture #3 hits the last Silver, and then Venture #4 plows through the Tunnels again. So that's another 36 Silvers.
NICE! Forum power!
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And here's another possible tweak: I think I found something potentially better than the Hoard/Farmland interaction, which nets a total of 12 Silvers after Tradering the Farmland at turn's end. Instead, how about playing 10 Talismans and then buying a Noble Brigand. You gain a "copy" of the Noble Brigand 10 more times, each time Tradering the copy into a Silver. And because you bought Noble Brigand, you get to poach a Silver from each opponent's deck (or a Gold that you Trader into a Silver). And then you Trader the Noble Brigand into a Silver when you actually gain it. So, instead of 12 more Silvers, you get 11 + X more Silvers, where X is the number of other players in the game.
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^Noble Brigand only triggers on buy, not gain, so you only get a silver stolen out of one of them.
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^Noble Brigand only triggers on buy, not gain, so you only get a silver stolen out of one of them.
He's correct though
Hoard + Farmland gets 10 silver from the hoard, +2 from the Farmland and the trashed card. Talisman + Noble Brigand gets 10 from the talismans, 1 for the original noble brigand + X-1, where X is the number of players. Only the 1 noble brigand will do any thieving, but if there are 4 players, you'll snag a total of 3 silvers, which nets you 2 more than the farmland solution. Since we're constrained to 1 buy, we can't do any Hoard madness involving buying 12 estates. And with the recent ruling that the gaining is done in order with respect to embargo, 10 talismans can actually gain 11 silvers from the noble brigand stack.
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with regards to Tunnel/Treasure interactions, why not just use Watchtower to trash the silvers? Also, HoP can get you a few Silvers if you have Kingdom cards to spare.
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What about something with Highway/Talismen/Border Village/Cache?
With 2 Highways in play, buy 1 BV, Gain 10 more, gain 11 Cache?
Could you also use the Haggler's to gain Cache as well? Basically, can you trigger the Cache's on Gain, then trigger Trader's?
Ignore me, nothing to see here folks...
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Ignore me, nothing to see here folks...
Funny to see the same progression I made with this puzzle acted out directly in the forum.
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For this puzzle, are we ignoring that the game would have already ended if you have 10 Hoards, 10 Hagglers, 10 Horns of Plenty and 10 IGG? And how do you draw all 40 of those cards into your hand at the same time?
If ignoring those constraints of a regular game, perhaps a solution could also involve 10 KC'd Develops gaining 2 cards each that get Trader'd into Silver? That could get you 60 Silvers rather than the 30 Silvers from KC'd Embargo.
Or even better:
What if you had more than one Trader in your hand? KC Trader to trash 27 high cost cards for piles and piles of Silver (leaving 1 Trader in hand for its Reaction during the Buy phase). 10 Colonies, 10 Platinums and 7 Provinces/Peddlers would give 10*11 + 10*9 + 7*8 = 256 silver.
Am I overlooking anything important in this suggestion? I am not sure about the optimal way to fit it in with other suggestions in this thread (if we conform to a 10 card kingdom).
Edit: Missed the part about only gaining during the buy phase!
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Could playing the venture during Black market turns with a chancellor in between help for the tunnel interaction? or would that make too many kingdom cards?
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Could playing the venture during Black market turns with a chancellor in between help for the tunnel interaction? or would that make too many kingdom cards?
I thought about that, but I think it violates the "one buy phase / one buy" constraint of the puzzle.
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Am I overlooking anything important in this suggestion? I am not sure about the optimal way to fit it in with other suggestions in this thread (if we conform to a 10 card kingdom).
Develop is a tough card to play during your buy phase.
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For this puzzle, are we ignoring that the game would have already ended if you have 10 Hoards, 10 Hagglers, 10 Horns of Plenty and 10 IGG? And how do you draw all 40 of those cards into your hand at the same time?
You can gain the final several cards into your deck with something like Ironworks and then draw it later.
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Am I overlooking anything important in this suggestion?
Yep. your suggestions don't cause you to gain Silver in the buy phase.
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Am I overlooking anything important in this suggestion?
Yep. your suggestions don't cause you to gain Silver in the buy phase.
Ah, I missed the part in the problem saying in the buy phase. My bad. :-[
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I suspect it is not what was actually intended by theory, but I was going to suggest the same thing as jimjam. If you Watchtower the silvers as you gain them, you did still technically gain them and you can flip the 12 Tunnels all 10 times with your Ventures.
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For this puzzle, are we ignoring that the game would have already ended if you have 10 Hoards, 10 Hagglers, 10 Horns of Plenty and 10 IGG? And how do you draw all 40 of those cards into your hand at the same time?
You can gain the final several cards into your deck with something like Ironworks and then draw it later.
You posted a potential Kingdom here:
Unfortunately this also raises some problems of how big this Kingdom is. I suppose you could always get your KC and Trader out of a BM though.
Venture / Tunnel / Hoard / Haggler / IGG / Farmland / Cache / Black Market (KC, Trader) / Embargo / [+Actions that also gains cards into your hand?]
But that has no way to draw 10 each of Venture, Hoard and IGG (and HoP is missing now?). Shouldn't the solution take into account how to draw the required cards? Allowing a Kingdom larger than 10 would fix that though.
Edit: Or can you pull everything you need to draw everything out of BM?
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Take out Farmland since it only gets you one more card and put HoP back in. There are only 9 cards there, so you have space for a stack of Cities, plus one of every drawer and Village in the game from the Black Market. Young Witch in the BM can put Tunnel in as the Bane and give us one more pile back to get Farmland back in there (or King's Court in the Kingdom if we need it). If we can Watchtower the Silvers as we gain them, we should put Loan out on the board instead of something since it could flip all the Tunnels like the Ventures.)
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The "40 card hand" problem is easily solved with one card: Apprentice. If you start the turn by drawing four Apprentices and a Colony, then trash a Colony to draw six more Apprentices and five more Colonies, with four more Colonies coming up in the deck, by the time you are done trashing Colonies with Apprentice you'll have a whopping 95 cards in hand.
EDIT: OK, I've tried to combine the various insights in the thread so far into a solution that:
1. incorporates the need to draw all the cards you're playing (along with +actions as necessary);
2. plays by normal kingdom-size and player limits;
3. doesn't have 3+ piles exhausted at the start of your turn; and
4. doesn't use Watchtower to trash Silvers as you gain them, as I understood the point of the puzzle is to amass as many Silvers in a single buy and buy phase as possible.
The kingdom consists of:
1. Apprentice
2. Tunnel
3. Haggler
4. Horn of Plenty
5. Ill-Gotten Gains
6. Loan
7. Hoard
8. Cache
9. Embargo
10. Black Market (with King's Court, Trader, Venture, Young Witch)
11. Shanty Town (Young Witch bane)
Colonies and Platinums are also present. Before you start your turn, there are 30 Embargo tokens on the Colony pile (from 10 Embargoes having previously been KC'd). The Embargo and Loan piles are exhausted. There are at least three players present (and so 12 copies of each victory card).
Draw Apprentice x4, Colony x1. Trash the first Colony and draw three more Apprentices, another Colony, a Province, and four Platinums (among other things). Trash the Platinums, Province, and Colony and you'll have a hand of 57 cards (5 starting hand + 66 drawn from trashing - 14 of those cards being Apprentices, Colonies, Province, and Platinums).
Those 57 cards are:
- Shanty Town x9
- Haggler x9
- Horn of Plenty x9
- Ill-Gotten Gains x9
- Loan x10
- Hoard x9
- Venture x1
- Trader x1
Your draw pile consists solely of 9 Tunnels.
Play the 9 Shanty Towns to get +9 Actions, then play the 9 Hagglers.
Now, in your buy phase:
- Play a Loan, discarding all the Tunnels and Tradering the gained Golds. {+9 Silver}
- Play another Loan, triggering a reshuffle with Tunnels on top and discarding them all again. {+9 Silver} The Loan then hits and discards a Silver; there are now 8 Silvers left in your draw pile.
- Play the last 8 Loans, discarding those 8 Silvers.
- Now play your Venture, triggering a reshuffle and plowing through the Tunnels one last time. {+9 Silver}
- Play the 9 IGGs, Tradering the gained Coppers. {+9 Silver}
- Play the 9 HoPs, gaining Caches and Tradering the double Copper gains from each. {+18 Silver}
- Play the 9 Hoards.
Now, buy a Colony.
- Gain 9 Golds from your Hoards, Tradering each one. {+9 Silver}
- Gain 9 Silvers via Haggler. {+9 Silver}
- Gain 30 Curses from the Embargo tokens, Tradering each one. {+30 Silver}
- Trader the Colony when you gain it. {+1 Silver}
That's a grand total of 103 Silvers, all sitting in your deck.
Unfortunately, there didn't seem to be room in the kingdom to make your actual "purchase card" something with a cute on-buy effect, like Farmland or Noble Brigand. As that effect produced less extra Silvers than the other kingdom cards, and wasn't essential for draw/actions, I sadly cut it.
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Use Villages from the Black Market instead of Shanty Town (there are at least 9) Change the Bane to Loan, and put in Farmland for 1 more Silver.
I think you can also play 1 Highway from the Black Market, which allows you to use Workshop and Ironworks from the Black Market to gain the last Horn of Plenty and IGG, then use Develop to trash a $5 from the Black Market and gain a Hoard (and a Trader), and use University (one of your BM Villages) to gain the last Haggler. There are more details to work out with playing the Villages, having your Deck stacked perfectly, and possibly using a +cards or two to pick up your gained cards, but I don't think there are any reasons why it wouldn't work with perfect shuffling.
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Apprentice is good but takes up a kingdom slot; cellar/counting house is terminal and dumps a bunch of copper into your discard (unless you want to play two counting houses). Black Market Native Village, however, is the correct drawer.
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Are we intentionally ignoring the Possession-Embargo-Trader trick? Because then the answer is infinity.
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Are we intentionally ignoring the Possession-Embargo-Trader trick? Because then the answer is infinity.
Yes we are.
From the OP:
(theoretically, this can be infinitely high if Embargo was trashed on a Possession turn, but let's ignore Possession like in all puzzles)
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My bad. Speedread right past it evidently...
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Native Village is a brilliant idea. Though I don't envy anyone the "fun" of putting 60+ cards on a Native Village mat with only one Native Village in their deck. ;)
Are we limiting the size of the Black Market deck at all?
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Are we limiting the size of the Black Market deck at all?
Puzzles usually don't since the literal wording on the card allows for it to contain every single card not in the Kingdom. Isotropic is technically a variant (but I also thing the Card FAQ indicates you can choose the cards any way you would like)