Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: GendoIkari on May 05, 2017, 01:56:13 pm
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So many years ago I made a post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1026) to list/discuss the Peddler-variants that existed. Well there are more now, so I'm doing this again:
- Oasis (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Oasis): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png), with the drawback of discarding a card.
- Market (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Market): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), with a +buy.
- Highway (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Highway): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), with the benefit of being worth more when you buy more. Also benefit for things like Remodel/Ironworks/etc.
- Treasury (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Treasury): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), with the benefit of putting back on top of your deck if you didn't buy a victory card.
- Peddler (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Peddler): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/55/Coin8star.png/16px-Coin8star.png)Variable cost, usually purchased for less than (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png). Extra benefit for trash-for-benefits.
- Tournament (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Tournament): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png), you only get the full benefit sometimes (every time early in the game). Also benefit of gaining prizes.
- Bazaar (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bazaar) (Thanks rinkworks): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), gives an extra action also.
- Poacher (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Poacher): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png), the closest thing we'll see to the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png) Peddler, and the card that means we won't ever see a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png) Peddler. Minor drawback in some games, sometimes no drawback at all. In some games the drawback could hurt a bunch.
- Artificer (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Artificer): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), added benefit of optionally discarding cards to gain another card. Like a weaker Secret Chamber tacked on?
- Junk Dealer (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Junk_Dealer): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), you get to (have to) trash a card from your hand when you play it. Doesn't feel like a Peddler because it plays much more like a cantrip trasher with a coin tacked on than a cantrip coin with trashing tacked on. But still clearly fits the formula.
- Baker (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Baker): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), benefit of getting a coin token instead of a coin, which ranges from a little better to much better.
- Emporium (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Emporium): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), is often worth 2(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png) when you gain it, but you have to clear out the top half of the pile before you can gain them.
- Settlers (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Settlers): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png), with the drawback that it only works when you have a Copper in your discard pile. Big drawback if you can trash your Coppers.
- Merchant (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Merchant): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png), drawback of only working if you play a Silver that turn.
- Caravan Guard (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Caravan_Guard): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png), drawback of being a Duration, unless you use its reaction, in which case it's a normal Peddler.
- Chariot Race (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Chariot_Race): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png), only works if the card you draw is more expensive than your left-hand opponent's top card. But when it works, it's also a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png).
- Ironmonger (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Ironmonger): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png), only a Peddler when your top card is a treasure. But always gives you something, and it's even better than a Peddler when your top card is a treasure you don't want, like a Copper.
Honorable mentions (these were in my original list, but I agree with those who said that they didn't really feel like Peddler variants):
- City (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/City): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), only level 3 Cities give you that full benefit, and they give you much more, too.
- Grand Market (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Grand_Market): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/60/Coin6star.png/16px-Coin6star.png), gives an extra buy and an extra coin; cost is more than 6 in terms of ease of purchase.
- Conspirator (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Conspirator) (Thanks rinkworks): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png), only gives the full bonus after 2 other actions, but the bonus gives an extra coin.
- Mystic (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mystic): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), if Conspirator is an honorable mention, so is this. When it works, it's an activated Conspirator. Otherwise, it's just a Silver.
- Venture (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Venture): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), has a virtual +1 action as a result of being a treasure, and its +1 card is always a treasure.
And interesting to note that with Adventures tokens, there's a whole bunch of cards that you can turn into Peddler+ cards; just add the +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) token to any cantrip, or add the +1 card token to cards like Lighthouse.
So 10 new ones (and 2 honorable mentions) since last time! That's a lot... only 7 of them throughout the first 7 sets, and now 10 new ones from just 4 new sets (and second edition sets).
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Settlers is kiiiind of a Peddler variant.
(And Grand Market is definitely a Peddler variant.)
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Merchant.
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Settlers is kiiiind of a Peddler variant.
(And Grand Market is definitely a Peddler variant.)
Just thought of Settlers and added it in as you were posting that.
LF, good call on Merchant.
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Caravan Guard (duration Peddler - sometimes you get the coin on the same turn as the card)
Chariot Race (conditional Peddler+)
Ironmonger (often a Peddler+ early)
Venture (has a lot of similarities to Peddler, but it can't be drawn dead and it only draws treasures)
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Caravan Guard (duration Peddler - sometimes you get the coin on the same turn as the card)
Chariot Race (conditional Peddler+)
Ironmonger (often a Peddler+ early)
Venture (has a lot of similarities to Peddler, but it can't be drawn dead and it only draws treasures)
I was even thinking of Caravan Guard when deciding to make this post, then forgot it. Unsure about Venture, but the others are definitely good. I see what you're saying with Venture, it just seems too different; +1 action feels a lot different from "treasure, so you don't need an action to play it". Especially since the +1 action on Peddler can be used to play a bunch of Peddlers and then a terminal action like Goons.
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http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Peddler_variant
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http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Peddler_variant
That too I suppose!
Looks like there's just 4 on that list not on mine, and none the other way around. Mining Village, Mill, and Vassal I think belong in the honorable mentions. Tribute feels like a big stretch...
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http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Peddler_variant
(https://i.imgflip.com/1ohz4s.jpg)
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Especially since the +1 action on Peddler can be used to play a bunch of Peddlers and then a terminal action like Goons.
The Treasure card type on Venture can be used to play a terminal Action like Goons and then play a bunch of Ventures.
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Especially since the +1 action on Peddler can be used to play a bunch of Peddlers and then a terminal action like Goons.
The Treasure card type on Venture can be used to play a terminal Action like Goons and then play a bunch of Ventures.
I did think about that; but the big difference still is that a Venture is a stop card, while Peddler is not. I guess that's more related to the lack of a real +1 card than a lack of a real +1 action... starting your turn with a hand of 5 Peddlers means you just have an extra (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) this turn on top of whatever your deck does (you can still draw your deck and play a bunch of Goons and whatever else your deck would do if it had no Peddlers in it). Starting your turn with a hand of 5 Ventures means you just have a bunch of money to spend and nothing else.
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- Artificer (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Artificer): (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), added benefit of optionally discarding cards to gain another card. Like a weaker Secret Chamber tacked on?
How is that like secret chamber?
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How is that like secret chamber?
Secret Chamber gives you $1 of value per card you discard. So does Artificer.
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Peddler variants are some of my favorite cards.
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Is there any math-y treatment of Peddler variants talking about statistics and economy and engine-building?
Sometimes a kingdom has no draw other than peddler variants, but anyone that's ever played with something like Forager and Peddler knows that it's possible to end up with a deck with nothing but Peddlers in it pretty quickly.
An all-Peddler deck is super-consistent...until the deck has 5 stop cards in it, at which point, it's essentially guaranteed to stall, but only after playing a few cards (how many, on average?) and finally drawing all 5 stops.
So: What's the formula for average cash-per-hand based on a five-card hand, the total number of stop cards in the deck and the total number of Peddlers? That might offer some guidance about when to start greening, how many Provinces/Duchies you'll likely get, especially if one of the stop card is a terminal +buy.
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Is there any math-y treatment of Peddler variants talking about statistics and economy and engine-building?
Sometimes a kingdom has no draw other than peddler variants, but anyone that's ever played with something like Forager and Peddler knows that it's possible to end up with a deck with nothing but Peddlers in it pretty quickly.
An all-Peddler deck is super-consistent...until the deck has 5 stop cards in it, at which point, it's essentially guaranteed to stall, but only after playing a few cards (how many, on average?) and finally drawing all 5 stops.
So: What's the formula for average cash-per-hand based on a five-card hand, the total number of stop cards in the deck and the total number of Peddlers? That might offer some guidance about when to start greening, how many Provinces/Duchies you'll likely get, especially if one of the stop card is a terminal +buy.
If p is the number of Peddlers in your deck, and s the number of stop cards, then this is the formula for the expected coin value on a given turn (assuming none of the stop cards actually provide coin):
(http://latex2png.com/output//latex_a958570931c2439986e582881bf1b429.png)
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Which probably explains why nobody has yet given this any extensive treatment.
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Treasury needs an article. I think I'll write one after my AP test.
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I'm a sucker for Peddler variants. So simple, yet so comprehensive in their effects. Seaside was the first set I owned, so Treasury is my nostalgic pick for favorite card ever.