Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: GendoIkari on February 09, 2012, 03:11:11 pm
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So say there's 1 Curse left in the pile, and you buy an Estate, which has 2 Embargo tokens on it. You have Trader in hand. Can you gain 2 Silvers? I think the answer is no, but it seems easy enough to argue that you should be allowed to:
1. You are about to gain a Curse from Embargo token #1. You reveal Trader to get Silver instead.
2. There is still a Curse in the pile, so you are about to gain a Curse from Embargo token #2. You reveal Trader to get Silver instead.
On the other hand, you can look at it like this:
1. You are about to gain 2 Curses. Wait, no you aren't there's only 1 left, so you are about to gain 1 Curse. You reveal Trader to get Silver instead.
I don't think there's any other card out there that lets you simultaneously gain 2 cards... all you have is things that could trigger at the same time, each letting you gain a card. But in those cases, you choose which trigger to resolve first, and then I'm pretty sure you can choose to gain a Curse for each one, but reveal Trader and get Silver instead for each one.
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I'd trust whatever iso does.
But I'd say that you can gain 2 silvers. If you tradered only the first curse, that second one is still going to come flying at you.
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I'd trust whatever iso does.
But I'd say that you can gain 2 silvers. If you tradered only the first curse, that second one is still going to come flying at you.
I think someone in another thread mentioned that Iso lets you gain 2 Curses, but that it is a bug...
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Just checked Iso... you cannot gain two Silvers from the Curses in this situation. The Curse pile actually gets marked as "empty" while you decide whether to reveal Trader. That doesn't mean Iso is automagically right, though.
I don't think there's any other card out there that lets you simultaneously gain 2 cards... all you have is things that could trigger at the same time, each letting you gain a card
Cache comes immediately to mind. Talisman might fit here but it's hard to tell for sure.
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Just checked Iso... you cannot gain two Silvers from the Curses in this situation. The Curse pile actually gets marked as "empty" while you decide whether to reveal Trader. That doesn't mean Iso is automagically right, though.
I don't think there's any other card out there that lets you simultaneously gain 2 cards... all you have is things that could trigger at the same time, each letting you gain a card
Cache comes immediately to mind. Talisman might fit here but it's hard to tell for sure.
Oh definitely Cache... and it allows for simpler phrasing of the original question.
I'm pretty sure not with Talisman. If you have 2 in play, then both trigger at once, and you choose which one to resolve first.
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I don't think there's any other card out there that lets you simultaneously gain 2 cards... all you have is things that could trigger at the same time, each letting you gain a card.
I don't see what distinction you're trying to draw here. Isn't this case just two Embargo tokens triggering at the same time?
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I don't think you can get 2 silvers. You gain the curse you bought before you gain the ones from embargo. And then since the pile is empty you can't gain a curse and can't reveal the trader.
If you reveal the trader for the curse you bought, the embargo event never triggers.
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I don't think you can get 2 silvers. You gain the curse you bought before you gain the ones from embargo. And then since the pile is empty you can't gain a curse and can't reveal the trader.
If you reveal the trader for the curse you bought, the embargo event never triggers.
You're not buying a Curse; you're buying from some other pile that has multiple Embargo tokens on it.
(Also, if you buy from an Embargoed pile, you gain the curses before you gain the card you bought.)
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I don't think there's any other card out there that lets you simultaneously gain 2 cards... all you have is things that could trigger at the same time, each letting you gain a card.
I don't see what distinction you're trying to draw here. Isn't this case just two Embargo tokens triggering at the same time?
Well that's definitely one possible interpretation. But if you read Embargo literally, the tokens don't trigger at all. Rather, when you buy a card, you "gain a Curse card per Embargo token on that pile." So the Token itself doesn't do anything, it's just a counter of how many Curses you should get. The rules on the Embargo card are what make the Curse-gaining happen.
But even if the Embargo tokens are one at a time, the question remains for Cache.
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I think you can get a silver for each embargo token. Multiple things are happening at once (you're gaining the card you legitimately bought, and you're gaining two curses), so you get to choose what order they occur in; you choose that they don't happen simultaneously, and thus every time you're about to gain a curse, you "would gain a curse" legitimately, and may therefore reveal trader. Under this interpretation, you can also, if you want, get a silver, then get a curse, but you can't get a curse, then get a silver (not that this would ever matter; just explaining these examples to clarify my interpretation).
I usually agree with "trust isotropic," but the embargo code is quite old, and I imagine this is a corner-case that it wasn't worth rewriting the embargo code around.
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Under this interpretation, you can also, if you want, get a silver, then get a curse, but you can't get a curse, then get a silver (not that this would ever matter; just explaining these examples to clarify my interpretation).
Sure it might matter! There are 2 piles empty, you have lots of Fairgrounds, 13 differently named cards, and no Silver or Curses in your deck. You need to gain both a Curse and a Silver in order to get enough points from Fairgrounds to win.
Happens all the time! ;D
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I don't think you can get 2 silvers. You gain the curse you bought before you gain the ones from embargo. And then since the pile is empty you can't gain a curse and can't reveal the trader.
If you reveal the trader for the curse you bought, the embargo event never triggers.
You're not buying a Curse; you're buying from some other pile that has multiple Embargo tokens on it.
(Also, if you buy from an Embargoed pile, you gain the curses before you gain the card you bought.)
D'oh. Confused. Yeah, Embargo happens when you buy, not gain...
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I don't think you can get 2 silvers. You gain the curse you bought before you gain the ones from embargo. And then since the pile is empty you can't gain a curse and can't reveal the trader.
If you reveal the trader for the curse you bought, the embargo event never triggers.
You're not buying a Curse; you're buying from some other pile that has multiple Embargo tokens on it.
(Also, if you buy from an Embargoed pile, you gain the curses before you gain the card you bought.)
D'oh. Confused. Yeah, Embargo happens when you buy, not gain...
If Embargo happened when you gain, then if you Embargoed the Curse piles, you would gain the entire Curse pile as soon as you gained one! :'(
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So say there's 1 Curse left in the pile, and you buy an Estate, which has 2 Embargo tokens on it. You have Trader in hand. Can you gain 2 Silvers?
Yes. There are two things happening to the same player, so the player whose turn it is orders them. They are the same thing so whatever. Each one resolves with you picking to take Silver instead of Curse; you gain two Silvers.
Cache is not actually different. Even though Cache tells you to gain two Coppers, you can't gain two Coppers simultaneously; one has to get gained first, because things can happen when cards are gained that have to be ordered, and in any case they go to your discard pile in some order. So you can buy Cache with only one Copper in the supply and reveal Trader twice to get two Silvers.
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you choose that they don't happen simultaneously
I agree with all of your post except this line. You seem to be implying that you could choose to gain them both simultaneously, and I don't think that's true. You must choose to gain one, and then the other, in some order.
EDIT: Beaten to it by Donald!
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I'd trust whatever iso does.
But I'd say that you can gain 2 silvers. If you tradered only the first curse, that second one is still going to come flying at you.
I think someone in another thread mentioned that Iso lets you gain 2 Curses, but that it is a bug...
That was me. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1549.msg24948#msg24948)
And after Donald agreed that you should be gaining 2 silvers, isotropic definitely now has a bug.
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So say there's 1 Curse left in the pile, and you buy an Estate, which has 2 Embargo tokens on it. You have Trader in hand. Can you gain 2 Silvers?
Yes. There are two things happening to the same player, so the player whose turn it is orders them. They are the same thing so whatever. Each one resolves with you picking to take Silver instead of Curse; you gain two Silvers.
Cache is not actually different. Even though Cache tells you to gain two Coppers, you can't gain two Coppers simultaneously; one has to get gained first, because things can happen when cards are gained that have to be ordered, and in any case they go to your discard pile in some order. So you can buy Cache with only one Copper in the supply and reveal Trader twice to get two Silvers.
Thanks Donald! It definitely makes sense to basically say "2 things cannot happen simultaneously" because of the reasons you mentioned.
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because things can happen when cards are gained that have to be ordered, and in any case they go to your discard pile in some order.
I thought the discard pile was unordered? So I don't think there is a problem with the rules if they end up on your discard pile without any order. Maybe with reality, but that's another topic...
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The discard pile is ordered, you just get to choose the order any time multiple cards are discarded together. This is not the case on Isotropic but that's only because it would make the game hell to play if you had to order your cards everytime something was discarded.
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Iso also doesn't show the top card of the discard pile, which you could see in real life. It wouldn't add that much, because you would just put the card you bought/gained on top and this can be read back in the logs anyway.
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What happens when there are zero of something that you should gain? For example, if you buy a cache and there are NO coppers left, could you still reveal Trader to gain two Silver?
Order of events could be something like:
Buy Cache. Gain Cache.
You would gain Copper --> Reveal Trader --> Gain Silver instead.
You would gain Copper --> Don't reveal Trader --> No Coppers available to gain, so gain nothing.
This fits with the wording on Trader. Or it might go:
You would gain Copper --> No Coppers available to gain, can't reveal Trader.
I think the former makes more sense though. Thoughts?
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So say there's 1 Curse left in the pile, and you buy an Estate, which has 2 Embargo tokens on it. You have Trader in hand. Can you gain 2 Silvers?
Yes. There are two things happening to the same player, so the player whose turn it is orders them. They are the same thing so whatever. Each one resolves with you picking to take Silver instead of Curse; you gain two Silvers.
Cache is not actually different. Even though Cache tells you to gain two Coppers, you can't gain two Coppers simultaneously; one has to get gained first, because things can happen when cards are gained that have to be ordered, and in any case they go to your discard pile in some order. So you can buy Cache with only one Copper in the supply and reveal Trader twice to get two Silvers.
Did this today, in fact, in an IRL game. :)
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Although this is already overkill on this question (since Donald X. weighed in and all) I noticed something about the wording of Trader:
"when you would gain a card." So even if we interpreted the action of the embargo as sending you two curses simultaneously, you couldn't reveal Trader, because then it wouldn't apply -- you'd be gaining two cards, not one.
But none of that matters given what was already said.
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Although this is already overkill on this question (since Donald X. weighed in and all) I noticed something about the wording of Trader:
"when you would gain a card." So even if we interpreted the action of the embargo as sending you two curses simultaneously, you couldn't reveal Trader, because then it wouldn't apply -- you'd be gaining two cards, not one.
But none of that matters given what was already said.
I think even with that wording it would still apply -- it's just semantics. Gaining two cards is eqivalent to gaining a card twice. :)
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What happens when there are zero of something that you should gain? For example, if you buy a cache and there are NO coppers left, could you still reveal Trader to gain two Silver?
No; the gamestate has to be such that, if you didn't reveal Trader, you'd actually gain something.