Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Game Reports => Topic started by: Omastar68 on February 02, 2017, 06:32:34 pm
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Kingdom was:
-Chapel
-Village
-Workshop
-Gardens
-Smithy
-Festival
-Library
-Witch
Apparently I lost the log, lol.
Anyways, I lost by quite a bit. I like Gardens, but I find the rush strategy to be difficult to do well. I started double Workshop ofc, then I went for Village followed by another Shop and alternating them for a bit until they were both about half gone, and I started going for Gardens.
Is Village worth it on this sort of board? I see it a lot, so it'd be good to know. I do not like colliding Workshops, though I ofc understand the importance of getting them for a Gardens strategy. But is such a strategy even worth pursuing here? Simple Village+Smithy it after not that many turns. So you have to empty piles fast...but how fast? And since you need 3 empty piles, shouldn't it be good to empty the other two-mostly at least-then go for Gardens?
Somewhat unrelated, but while I'm not especially concerned about how I use Gardens w/o Workshop, what about the other way around? I've only had success w/ Shop on a non-Gardens board once, and I just got 1 late(ish) game. Starting w/ one has made me do bad, even w/ cheap cards you want like Throne Room.
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With, Chapel, Festival and Library on the board, the engine will surely outpace the workshop/garden rush. Now, on a pure Workshop/Garden, Iīd pick one, maaaybe two Villages (probably one or none is better I believe, but not really sure), but definetely, not half the pile. Your goal is to end the game as fast as possible, donīt mind the terminal Workshop collision, playing Workshop every turn is way more important, pick Estates agressivelly every time you reach 2, but not 3 (or even on 3 after workshop is gone), if you donīt reach two pick copper. When you start going for Gardens really depends on whether itīs a mirror or not. In a non-mirror there's simulador evidence that you should start going for Gardens after getting 9 Workshops, in a mirror it's a lot harder to decide, I would probably start on them sometime during the second shuffle
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With, Chapel, Festival and Library on the board, the engine will surely outpace the workshop/garden rush. Now, on a pure Workshop/Garden, Iīd pick one, maaaybe two Villages (probably one or none is better I believe, but not really sure), but definetely, not half the pile. Your goal is to end the game as fast as possible, donīt mind the terminal Workshop collision, playing Workshop every turn is way more important, pick Estates agressivelly every time you reach 2, but not 3 (or even on 3 after workshop is gone), if you donīt reach two pick copper. When you start going for Gardens really depends on whether itīs a mirror or not. In a non-mirror there's simulador evidence that you should start going for Gardens after getting 9 Workshops, in a mirror it's a lot harder to decide, I would probably start on them sometime during the second shuffle
Never would've guessed 9. Should you getting lots of Silver too?
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Never would've guessed 9. Should you getting lots of Silver too?
No Silver at all. Silver fails the Workshop test.
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Great stuff, thanks people. Just one last thing, what kinds of cards discourage a Gardens + Workshop strategy? Besides the aforementioned(I'm used to just ignoring Library lol, I'll have to work on that.)
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I usually do pretty well with four workshops asap, then buy priorities Gardens>Workshop>Copper until the Gardens run out, when I switch to Workshop>Estate>Copper. Works pretty well, although you get sick of Ws-Gardens after only a couple games of it.
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With, Chapel, Festival and Library on the board, the engine will surely outpace the workshop/garden rush. Now, on a pure Workshop/Garden, Iīd pick one, maaaybe two Villages (probably one or none is better I believe, but not really sure), but definetely, not half the pile. Your goal is to end the game as fast as possible, donīt mind the terminal Workshop collision, playing Workshop every turn is way more important, pick Estates agressivelly every time you reach 2, but not 3 (or even on 3 after workshop is gone), if you donīt reach two pick copper. When you start going for Gardens really depends on whether itīs a mirror or not. In a non-mirror there's simulador evidence that you should start going for Gardens after getting 9 Workshops, in a mirror it's a lot harder to decide, I would probably start on them sometime during the second shuffle
I doubt that chapel, festival, library is faster than workshop/gardens.
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With, Chapel, Festival and Library on the board, the engine will surely outpace the workshop/garden rush. Now, on a pure Workshop/Garden, Iīd pick one, maaaybe two Villages (probably one or none is better I believe, but not really sure), but definetely, not half the pile. Your goal is to end the game as fast as possible, donīt mind the terminal Workshop collision, playing Workshop every turn is way more important, pick Estates agressivelly every time you reach 2, but not 3 (or even on 3 after workshop is gone), if you donīt reach two pick copper. When you start going for Gardens really depends on whether itīs a mirror or not. In a non-mirror there's simulador evidence that you should start going for Gardens after getting 9 Workshops, in a mirror it's a lot harder to decide, I would probably start on them sometime during the second shuffle
I doubt that chapel, festival, library is faster than workshop/gardens.
At least, Chapel, Village-Smithy with +Buy beats because you can use 2 Workshops to gain Engine components very fast.
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The most important thing to remember about gardens in that the strategy is adversarial. You have to change based on how your opponent plays.
Workshop gardens vs Workshop gardens - Compete for gardens but then also compete for duchies with silver. Festival would be a useful card. Fast game.
Workshop gardens vs Smithy treasure - Get a lot of workshops and make the big deck. Treasure decks won't be able to end the game quickly. Slow game.
Workshop gardens vs engine - The engine has options to build for a long time, compete for gardens (and trash them), could add a witch. Not easy to pick the workshop strategy.
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I usually do pretty well with four workshops asap, then buy priorities Gardens>Workshop>Copper until the Gardens run out, when I switch to Workshop>Estate>Copper. Works pretty well, although you get sick of Ws-Gardens after only a couple games of it.
4 sounds more like what I'd expect than 9, though I'll try both. And I know on playing Ws-Gardens, get that all the time.
One thing I thought would outperform this strategy is Council Room, I think it was w/ mostly money. I lost, but it sounds like engines that beat this aren't that uncommon.
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Simulator evidence is just simulator evidence, it doesn't necessarily apply 1:1 to real games. I don't think you should get any Gardens before second reshuffle though, which would ideally get you 6 Workshops if you're lucky, but more likely 5.
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With, Chapel, Festival and Library on the board, the engine will surely outpace the workshop/garden rush. Now, on a pure Workshop/Garden, Iīd pick one, maaaybe two Villages (probably one or none is better I believe, but not really sure), but definetely, not half the pile. Your goal is to end the game as fast as possible, donīt mind the terminal Workshop collision, playing Workshop every turn is way more important, pick Estates agressivelly every time you reach 2, but not 3 (or even on 3 after workshop is gone), if you donīt reach two pick copper. When you start going for Gardens really depends on whether itīs a mirror or not. In a non-mirror there's simulador evidence that you should start going for Gardens after getting 9 Workshops, in a mirror it's a lot harder to decide, I would probably start on them sometime during the second shuffle
I doubt that chapel, festival, library is faster than workshop/gardens.
I'm pretty sure the engine is going to absolutely wreck Workshop/Gardens here, basically every time. Without a trasher you would have problems, but... you have Chapel!
So I'd open Workshop/Chapel in a heartbeat. I'd contest Gardens eventually, though not until I have my deck up somewhat. Should be able to pick off two of them.
I mean, you'll be up and running so fast after you trash all your Coppers and Estates, which won't take long. Villages, Smithies, Festivals, Libraries, you're golden. You'll be double Provincing in no time.
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With, Chapel, Festival and Library on the board, the engine will surely outpace the workshop/garden rush. Now, on a pure Workshop/Garden, Iīd pick one, maaaybe two Villages (probably one or none is better I believe, but not really sure), but definetely, not half the pile. Your goal is to end the game as fast as possible, donīt mind the terminal Workshop collision, playing Workshop every turn is way more important, pick Estates agressivelly every time you reach 2, but not 3 (or even on 3 after workshop is gone), if you donīt reach two pick copper. When you start going for Gardens really depends on whether itīs a mirror or not. In a non-mirror there's simulador evidence that you should start going for Gardens after getting 9 Workshops, in a mirror it's a lot harder to decide, I would probably start on them sometime during the second shuffle
I doubt that chapel, festival, library is faster than workshop/gardens.
I'm pretty sure the engine is going to absolutely wreck Workshop/Gardens here, basically every time. Without a trasher you would have problems, but... you have Chapel!
So I'd open Workshop/Chapel in a heartbeat. I'd contest Gardens eventually, though not until I have my deck up somewhat. Should be able to pick off two of them.
I mean, you'll be up and running so fast after you trash all your Coppers and Estates, which won't take long. Villages, Smithies, Festivals, Libraries, you're golden. You'll be double Provincing in no time.
Maybe my opponents are doing it wrong, but I haven't lost a single garden/workshop game against that strategy on similar boards.
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With, Chapel, Festival and Library on the board, the engine will surely outpace the workshop/garden rush. Now, on a pure Workshop/Garden, Iīd pick one, maaaybe two Villages (probably one or none is better I believe, but not really sure), but definetely, not half the pile. Your goal is to end the game as fast as possible, donīt mind the terminal Workshop collision, playing Workshop every turn is way more important, pick Estates agressivelly every time you reach 2, but not 3 (or even on 3 after workshop is gone), if you donīt reach two pick copper. When you start going for Gardens really depends on whether itīs a mirror or not. In a non-mirror there's simulador evidence that you should start going for Gardens after getting 9 Workshops, in a mirror it's a lot harder to decide, I would probably start on them sometime during the second shuffle
I doubt that chapel, festival, library is faster than workshop/gardens.
I'm pretty sure the engine is going to absolutely wreck Workshop/Gardens here, basically every time. Without a trasher you would have problems, but... you have Chapel!
So I'd open Workshop/Chapel in a heartbeat. I'd contest Gardens eventually, though not until I have my deck up somewhat. Should be able to pick off two of them.
I mean, you'll be up and running so fast after you trash all your Coppers and Estates, which won't take long. Villages, Smithies, Festivals, Libraries, you're golden. You'll be double Provincing in no time.
Maybe my opponents are doing it wrong, but I haven't lost a single garden/workshop game against that strategy on similar boards.
They probably are.
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I seen lot of games like these (with 2 nonbase cards). Trick is to open silver chapel to get witch, village and workshop and then build an engine that empties gardens in few turns with three workshops.
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I seen lot of games like these (with 2 nonbase cards). Trick is to open silver chapel to get witch, village and workshop and then build an engine that empties gardens in few turns with three workshops.
Need Witch? I think it waste of Actions. Without Chapel, the opponent does not get much damage. Sometimes 1 Curse gives 7 vps. We, combovskii have many other attractive choices. We can win 99.9% even if we don't have a Witch, I think.
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I seen lot of games like these (with 2 nonbase cards). Trick is to open silver chapel to get witch, village and workshop and then build an engine that empties gardens in few turns with three workshops.
The trick is to make your deck an objectively worse Gardens deck in order to green by gaining what are essentially Tunnels in terms of VP allowed. Sounds solid.
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c starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
c shuffles their deck.
c draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.
O starts with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.
Turn 1 - cudabear
c plays 4 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Workshop.
c draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.
Turn 1 - Omastar68
O plays 4 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Workshop.
O draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.
Turn 2 - cudabear
c plays 3 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Silver.
c shuffles their deck.
c draws 3 Coppers, a Silver and an Estate.
Turn 2 - Omastar68
O plays 3 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Workshop.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 4 Coppers and a Workshop.
Turn 3 - cudabear
c plays a Silver and 3 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Laboratory.
c draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.
Turn 3 - Omastar68
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Workshop.
O plays 4 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Gardens.
O draws 2 Coppers, 2 Estates and a Workshop.
Turn 4 - cudabear
c plays 4 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Village.
c shuffles their deck.
c draws 2 Coppers, an Estate, a Village and a Workshop.
Turn 4 - Omastar68
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Gardens.
O plays 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Cellar.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates.
Turn 5 - cudabear
c plays a Village.
c draws a Copper.
c plays a Workshop.
c gains a Village.
c plays 3 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Silver.
c draws 4 Coppers and an Estate.
Turn 5 - Omastar68
O plays 3 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Workshop.
O draws 2 Coppers, an Estate, a Cellar and a Gardens.
Turn 6 - cudabear
c plays 4 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Smithy.
c shuffles their deck.
c draws a Copper, a Silver, 2 Estates and a Laboratory.
Turn 6 - Omastar68
O plays a Cellar.
O discards an Estate and a Gardens.
O draws a Gardens and a Workshop.
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Gardens.
O plays 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Cellar.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 3 Coppers and 2 Workshops.
Turn 7 - cudabear
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws 2 Coppers.
c plays a Silver and 3 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Laboratory.
c draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, an Estate and a Smithy.
Turn 7 - Omastar68
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Gardens.
O plays 3 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Workshop.
O draws a Copper, a Cellar, 2 Gardens and a Workshop.
Turn 8 - cudabear
c plays a Smithy.
c draws 2 Coppers and a Workshop.
c plays a Silver and 4 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Gold.
c shuffles their deck.
c draws a Copper, a Gold, a Laboratory and 2 Villages.
Turn 8 - Omastar68
O plays a Cellar.
O discards 2 Gardens.
O draws a Copper and a Gardens.
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Gardens.
O plays 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Cellar.
O draws a Copper, 3 Estates and a Cellar.
Turn 9 - cudabear
c plays a Village.
c draws an Estate.
c plays a Village.
c draws a Workshop.
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws a Copper and a Silver.
c plays a Workshop.
c gains a Village.
c plays a Gold, a Silver and 2 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Laboratory.
c draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, an Estate and a Smithy.
Turn 9 - Omastar68
O plays a Cellar.
O discards 3 Estates.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws a Copper and 2 Workshops.
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Gardens.
O plays 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Cellar.
O draws a Copper, an Estate, a Cellar, a Gardens anda Workshop.
Turn 10 - cudabear
c plays a Smithy.
c draws a Copper, an Estate and a Laboratory.
c plays a Silver and 3 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Laboratory.
c shuffles their deck.
c draws 3 Coppers, a Silver and a Smithy.
Turn 10 - Omastar68
O plays a Cellar.
O discards an Estate and a Gardens.
O draws an Estate and a Gardens.
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Gardens.
O buys and gains a Copper.
O draws 2 Coppers, a Gardens and 2 Workshops.
Turn 11 - cudabear
c plays a Smithy.
c draws a Copper, a Gold and a Laboratory.
c plays a Gold, a Silver and 4 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Province.
c draws 2 Coppers, an Estate and 2 Villages.
Turn 11 - Omastar68
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Gardens.
O plays 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Cellar.
O draws 2 Coppers, an Estate and 2 Gardens.
Turn 12 - cudabear
c plays a Village.
c draws a Village.
c plays a Village.
c draws an Estate.
c plays a Village.
c draws a Silver.
c plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Harbinger.
c draws an Estate, 3 Laboratories and a Workshop.
Turn 12 - Omastar68
O plays 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Cellar.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 3 Coppers, an Estate and a Cellar.
Turn 13 - cudabear
c plays a Laboratory.
c shuffles their deck.
c draws a Copper and a Village.
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws a Copper and a Silver.
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws 2 Coppers.
c plays a Village.
c draws a Gold.
c plays a Workshop.
c gains a Village.
c plays a Gold, a Silver and 4 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Province.
c draws a Copper, a Silver, an Estate, a Laboratoryand a Village.
Turn 13 - Omastar68
O plays a Cellar.
O discards an Estate.
O draws a Workshop.
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Workshop.
O plays 3 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Workshop.
O draws 2 Coppers, a Cellar and 2 Gardens.
Turn 14 - cudabear
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws an Estate and a Village.
c plays a Village.
c draws a Copper.
c plays a Village.
c draws a Province.
c plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Smithy.
c shuffles their deck.
c draws 2 Coppers, a Province, a Harbinger and a Smithy.
Turn 14 - Omastar68
O plays a Cellar.
O discards 2 Gardens.
O draws a Copper and a Cellar.
O plays a Cellar.
O discards a Copper.
O draws an Estate.
O plays 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Cellar.
O draws a Copper and 4 Gardens.
Turn 15 - cudabear
c plays a Harbinger.
c draws a Laboratory.
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws 2 Villages.
c plays a Village.
c draws a Copper.
c plays a Village.
c draws a Province.
c plays a Smithy.
c draws a Gold, a Laboratory and a Village.
c plays a Village.
c draws an Estate.
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws a Copper and a Silver.
c plays a Gold, a Silver and 4 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Province.
c draws 2 Coppers, 2 Laboratories and a Workshop.
Turn 15 - Omastar68
O buys and gains a Copper.
O draws a Copper, an Estate, 2 Cellars and a Workshop.
Turn 16 - cudabear
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws a Silver and a Smithy.
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws a Copper and a Village.
c plays a Village.
c draws an Estate.
c plays a Smithy.
c shuffles their deck.
c draws an Estate, a Province and a Village.
c plays a Village.
c draws a Laboratory.
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws a Province and a Village.
c plays a Village.
c draws a Gold.
c plays a Workshop.
c gains a Village.
c plays a Gold, a Silver and 3 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Province.
c draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, a Laboratory and a Smithy.
Turn 16 - Omastar68
O plays a Cellar.
O discards an Estate and a Cellar.
O draws a Gardens and a Workshop.
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Workshop.
O buys and gains a Copper.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws a Copper, a Cellar, a Gardens and 2 Workshops.
Turn 17 - cudabear
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws a Province and a Harbinger.
c plays a Harbinger.
c draws a Copper.
c looks at nothing.
c topdecks a Gold.
c plays a Smithy.
c draws a Gold, an Estate and a Village.
c plays a Gold, a Silver and 3 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Province.
c shuffles their deck.
c draws a Copper, an Estate, a Province, a Harbingerand a Laboratory.
Turn 17 - Omastar68
O plays a Cellar.
O discards a Gardens and a Workshop.
O draws a Gardens and a Workshop.
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Workshop.
O buys and gains a Copper.
O draws an Estate, a Cellar, 2 Gardens and a Workshop.
Turn 18 - cudabear
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws 2 Coppers.
c plays a Harbinger.
c draws a Gold.
c plays a Gold and 3 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Duchy.
c draws a Copper, 2 Silvers, an Estate and a Village.
Turn 18 - Omastar68
O plays a Cellar.
O discards an Estate and 2 Gardens.
O draws a Copper, an Estate and a Gardens.
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Harbinger.
O buys and gains a Copper.
O draws a Copper, 3 Cellars and a Workshop.
Turn 19 - cudabear
c plays a Village.
c draws a Copper.
c plays 2 Silvers and 2 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Duchy.
c draws an Estate, a Province, a Laboratory and 2 Villages.
Turn 19 - Omastar68
O plays a Cellar.
O discards a Cellar.
O draws a Gardens.
O plays a Cellar.
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Harbinger.
O buys and gains a Copper.
O draws a Copper, an Estate, 2 Gardens and a Workshop.
Turn 20 - cudabear
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws a Smithy and a Village.
c plays a Village.
c draws a Laboratory.
c plays a Village.
c draws a Village.
c plays a Village.
c draws a Copper.
c plays a Village.
c draws a Copper.
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws a Province and a Smithy.
c plays a Smithy.
c draws a Province, a Laboratory and a Workshop.
c plays a Smithy.
c shuffles their deck.
c draws a Gold, a Province and a Laboratory.
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws 2 Duchies.
c plays a Laboratory.
c draws 2 Coppers.
c plays a Workshop.
c gains a Village.
c plays a Gold and 4 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Laboratory.
c draws 2 Coppers, a Silver, an Estate and a Village.
Turn 20 - Omastar68
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Cellar.
O buys and gains a Copper.
O draws 2 Coppers, a Cellar and 2 Workshops.
Turn 21 - cudabear
c plays a Village.
c draws a Copper.
c plays a Silver and 3 Coppers.
c buys and gains a Duchy.
c shuffles their deck.
c draws a Silver, an Estate, a Duchy, a Province anda Harbinger.
Turn 21 - Omastar68
O plays a Cellar.
O discards a Workshop.
O draws a Cellar.
O plays a Workshop.
O gains a Cellar.
O plays 2 Coppers.
O buys and gains a Cellar.
O shuffles their deck.
O draws 4 Coppers and a Gardens.
Seems ok to post a log of me almost playing Gardens right. I messed up not discarding a Gardens w/ Cellar, but didn't want to ask for an undo since I'd already lost pretty much. It was going good for a while, not sure what to do. I'm 100% positive Cellar is a good buy for this strat, for colliding Shops, Gardens, and Estates. But I may have got too many, and might've not got one soon enough. I feel like a Village could've helped here, maybe even Vassal. Artisan would be tough to afford w/ his strat, but helps it greatly. Lab on the board might've made an engine too appealing for Gardens to be effective; though there was no buy there was strong gaining and Village/ Smithy. idk about Harbinger, I like the card but do not have a good sense of when to use it at all.
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Cellar is not amazing in a Gardens rush, because you can't really expect the cards you draw to be any better than the cards you discard. The point of the strategy is that you don't care if your hands are full of crap because you never need to hit more than $4 and a single Workshop alone achieves that. I'd rather just buy Estate or Copper if you can't afford a Workshop or a Gardens.
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Cellar is not amazing in a Gardens rush, because you can't really expect the cards you draw to be any better than the cards you discard. The point of the strategy is that you don't care if your hands are full of crap because you never need to hit more than $4 and a single Workshop alone achieves that. I'd rather just buy Estate or Copper if you can't afford a Workshop or a Gardens.
Darn, wrong again. So no Cellars at all? Storeroom would be better.
I generally just wait for expansions though, so I don't really see much of Gardens, especially w/ a gainer. So this isn't that important...though I would like to win w/ this at least once. It seems like a very delicate balance, that also relies on a great deal of luck. I mean maybe not that much since you can always buy Copper and this likes that, but if you collide like all your Shops and your next turn is just green...
In case anyone wants to break this down further, how big of a deterrent is Bureaucrat to this strategy? If Chapel is on the board, should you then just not go Gardens? If you go second and your opponent doesn't open w/ any Workshops, is Militia a good buy? Since they can switch over to Gardens...maybe.
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In case anyone wants to break this down further, how big of a deterrent is Bureaucrat to this strategy? If Chapel is on the board, should you then just not go Gardens? If you go second and your opponent doesn't open w/ any Workshops, is Militia a good buy? Since they can switch over to Gardens...maybe.
Bureaucratīs attack is very annoying to the gardens rush, but at the same time itīs also a rather weak card that most engines would really struggle to play them consistently, so itīs mostly not a big deterrent I would say. Chapel is one of the best engine enablers in the game, but there would still need to be an actually good engine to build in the rest of the kingdom, so there isnīt a definete answer there. And for the Militia question... If you think Workshop/Gardens is worth going for, then the answer would be no. You will probably have very little opportunity to play the Militia beyond the second shuffle, and youīll probably be really missing the extra workshop, both because you want the extra card, and to accelerate the end game.
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Cellar is not amazing in a Gardens rush, because you can't really expect the cards you draw to be any better than the cards you discard. The point of the strategy is that you don't care if your hands are full of crap because you never need to hit more than $4 and a single Workshop alone achieves that. I'd rather just buy Estate or Copper if you can't afford a Workshop or a Gardens.
Darn, wrong again. So no Cellars at all? Storeroom would be better.
I generally just wait for expansions though, so I don't really see much of Gardens, especially w/ a gainer. So this isn't that important...though I would like to win w/ this at least once. It seems like a very delicate balance, that also relies on a great deal of luck. I mean maybe not that much since you can always buy Copper and this likes that, but if you collide like all your Shops and your next turn is just green...
In case anyone wants to break this down further, how big of a deterrent is Bureaucrat to this strategy? If Chapel is on the board, should you then just not go Gardens? If you go second and your opponent doesn't open w/ any Workshops, is Militia a good buy? Since they can switch over to Gardens...maybe.
Storeroom is not a bad card to have in your deck in this strategy, because it guarantees you a Gardens+Copper turn, which is an okay turn. It is, however, a bad card to buy or gain because Workshop also guarantees at least a Gardens+Copper turn and having the Workshop gone from the Workshop pile is more useful than having one Storeroom gone from the Storeroom pile.
The key to getting around colliding Workshops is to have so many Workshops that you probably have one Workshop every hand even if some of them collide.
Because you don't care if your hands are full of crap, Bureaucrat doesn't really do much damage to you, either. It only starts to get really bad if your opponent can constantly keep playing at least two but preferably (preferably for the opponent, that is) more Bureaucrats every turn, which is difficult to do because of the extra Silvers getting in the way.
In general, it sounds like you might be approaching the strategy from a fundamentally wrong angle. It kind of sounds like you're focusing on all the things that prevent you from taking advantage of the full potential of all of your things, like having your Workshops collide (so you can't use all of the Workshops you bought) or having a lot of green cards in your hand (so you can't use all of the cards you drew). Instead, I think you should focus on what you need to be able to achieve (i.e. emptying 3 piles and grabbing a couple of points asap), and what tools you need to get there. It doesn't matter how much potential you're wasting, the only thing that matters is whether or not you can actually meet your goal.
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With, Chapel, Festival and Library on the board, the engine will surely outpace the workshop/garden rush. Now, on a pure Workshop/Garden, Iīd pick one, maaaybe two Villages (probably one or none is better I believe, but not really sure), but definetely, not half the pile. Your goal is to end the game as fast as possible, donīt mind the terminal Workshop collision, playing Workshop every turn is way more important, pick Estates agressivelly every time you reach 2, but not 3 (or even on 3 after workshop is gone), if you donīt reach two pick copper. When you start going for Gardens really depends on whether itīs a mirror or not. In a non-mirror there's simulador evidence that you should start going for Gardens after getting 9 Workshops, in a mirror it's a lot harder to decide, I would probably start on them sometime during the second shuffle
I doubt that chapel, festival, library is faster than workshop/gardens.
I'm pretty sure the engine is going to absolutely wreck Workshop/Gardens here, basically every time. Without a trasher you would have problems, but... you have Chapel!
So I'd open Workshop/Chapel in a heartbeat. I'd contest Gardens eventually, though not until I have my deck up somewhat. Should be able to pick off two of them.
I mean, you'll be up and running so fast after you trash all your Coppers and Estates, which won't take long. Villages, Smithies, Festivals, Libraries, you're golden. You'll be double Provincing in no time.
Maybe my opponents are doing it wrong, but I haven't lost a single garden/workshop game against that strategy on similar boards.
yep, they're doing it wrong. if they're using workshop to gain gardens, that's a major mistake against the rush. you want to make the opponent work for all those gardens while you double-province.
workshop/gardens is a kinda fast pile-out with a low points ceiling, which is why it's not actually a good strategy overall. rebuild is similar in spirit but so much better because it attacks the pile that engine players want the most on many boards.
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I seen lot of games like these (with 2 nonbase cards). Trick is to open silver chapel to get witch, village and workshop and then build an engine that empties gardens in few turns with three workshops.
The trick is to make your deck an objectively worse Gardens deck in order to green by gaining what are essentially Tunnels in terms of VP allowed. Sounds solid.
No, my comment was on engine mirrors where witch sometimes screws opponent so its worth more than smithy and getitng workshops+piling gardens once piles are low is best way to win. Vs wshop/gdens engine could just do province/duchy and gain 2 last gardens with pileout if he has lead. When one gains just one witch and gives only 5-6 curses then it
doesn't help opponent's three piling.
chapel/workshop looks like mistake due to terminal collision as early getting villages is problem and single silver is needed to buy cards once chapel trashes down coppers.
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Is there really a functional difference between a Chapel / Workshop collision and a Chapel / Silver collision?
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Is there really a functional difference between a Chapel / Workshop collision and a Chapel / Silver collision?
Yes, but on turn 5/6, you could trash with chapel and buy village with silver but not with workshop. Problem is that with trimmed deck you don't have villages to support terminals, so gain workshop later.