Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Tables on October 10, 2016, 02:41:31 pm
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Let's say I'm introducing the game to someone. What's the worst possible set of cards to use in terms of likely rules confusion, difficulty in explaining, difficulty in keeping track of things going on and so forth? I'm going to assume the answer probably includes Black Market, but what other kingdom cards/events/landmarks and so forth will maximise chaos?
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If I didn't want to be friends with someone any longer, I would put out there:
Urchin / Cultist / Storyteller / Haunted Woods / Tournament / Black Market (Bane) / King's Court / Possession / Transmute / Knights / Young Witch
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I'd include Possession, Prince, Inheritance, Outpost.
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I'd go with:
Peasant (bane)
Crossroads
Young Witch
Trader
Procession
Ironworks
Highway
Outpost
Band of Misfits
Possession
Castles
Mission
Inheritance
For sheer amount of rules confusion.
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I would answer you, but I'm worried what you would do with this information to innocent people.
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Events: Inheritance / Salt? (Maybe Donate)
Peasant
Black Market
Ironworks
Procession
Overlord
Outpost
Possession
Torturer
Highway
Swindler
A good combination of rules trip ups, a nonintuitive strategy, decisions, and pain.
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Surprised no one has put Black Market and Crown together. Crowning a Black Market while buying from another Black Market seems like one of the best tracking nightmares available.
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I'll give you ironworks, replace, and mill as a set of three, based on personal experience.
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Thief, adventurer, pirateship, transmute, scout, colonies/platinums, coppersmith, noble brigand, cultist, sea hag, pearl diver
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I would answer you, but I'm worried what you would do with this information to innocent people.
They aren't inn... I don't have any plans. Purely hypothetical question.
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Surprised no one has put Black Market and Crown together. Crowning a Black Market while buying from another Black Market seems like one of the best tracking nightmares available.
I seem to remember a thread about this, but I don't remember what the ruling was
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Surprised no one has put Black Market and Crown together. Crowning a Black Market while buying from another Black Market seems like one of the best tracking nightmares available.
I seem to remember a thread about this, but I don't remember what the ruling was
- Play Black Market, get $2, reveal 3 cards from the BM deck (set A)
-- play a Crown
--- play Black Market, get $2, reveal 3 new cards (set B)
---- play other treasures in your hand for $
---- buy (or not) a card from set B, lose (or not) some $, return set B to the bottom
--- play Black Market a second time, get $2, reveal 3 new cards (set C)
---- play other treasures in your hand for $
---- buy (or not) a card from set C, lose (or not) some $, return set Cto the bottom
-- play other treasures in your hand for $
-- buy (or not) a card from set A, lose (or not) some $, return set A to the bottom
For added fun, replace any of the "other treasures for $" with "more Crowns, Black Markets, and Storytellers".
edit: also I think Villa is a nice fit for a nightmare intro kingdom.
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I find Pawn to be a fantastic card for newbies. It's "fun" watching them struggle for a minute, just to choose a card and an action. Some also get paralyzed by Cartographer, for some reason. So many choices!
King's Court is a great way to make friends too. They won't realize you can chain them one after another until the first time your turn takes 5 minutes.
Put at least one Duration, just so that at some point they realize they've shuffled it in before they should have, and ask you if it's ok if they fish for it from their deck to put it back into play.
Surprised no one has put Black Market and Crown together. Crowning a Black Market while buying from another Black Market seems like one of the best tracking nightmares available.
I seem to remember a thread about this, but I don't remember what the ruling was
- Play Black Market, get $2, reveal 3 cards from the BM deck (set A)
-- play a Crown
--- play Black Market, get $2, reveal 3 new cards (set B)
---- play other treasures in your hand for $
---- buy (or not) a card from set B, lose (or not) some $, return set B to the bottom
--- play Black Market a second time, get $2, reveal 3 new cards (set C)
---- play other treasures in your hand for $
---- buy (or not) a card from set C, lose (or not) some $, return set Cto the bottom
-- play other treasures in your hand for $
-- buy (or not) a card from set A, lose (or not) some $, return set A to the bottom
For added fun, replace any of the "other treasures for $" with "more Crowns, Black Markets, and Storytellers".
edit: also I think Villa is a nice fit for a nightmare intro kingdom.
What about buying a Mandarin somewhere in there.
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I just hope everyone including Black Market remembers to give people their starting coin token from Baker.
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I'd throw Rats in there just to fuck shit up.
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Also, make sure to use Shelters.
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Technically there's no limit on how many Events and Landmarks you can have.
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Further incentivise the players to actually use the action cards by including Bandit Fort.
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I think Bridge Troll is great. Tokens, Duration, cost reduction... Must come with an Event, because those don't get reduced. Possession is great because it's also a Potion cost card, and Villa is always very confusing. I think Catapult would go nicely with all this, because it's a split pile and Rocks has so many similar-seeming abilities (including gaining to deck, hooray). Engineer not being able to gain itself (but cost reduced Bridge Trolls) is also nice. Being able to Prince Bridge Trolls and then losing the effect is also sure to be fun.
Edit: Sorry for poor orthography, I'm very tired.
Edit 2: Oh, and absolutely include Procession to play Bridge Troll twice and remove it from play. Also, cost comparisons allow Catapults that were reduced to $0 into $1 Bridge Trolls.
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Technically there's no limit on how many Events and Landmarks you can have.
Right, so you definitely would include every single one for maximum complexity and confusion.
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Let's say I'm introducing the game to someone. What's the worst possible set of cards to use in terms of likely rules confusion, difficulty in explaining, difficulty in keeping track of things going on and so forth? I'm going to assume the answer probably includes Black Market, but what other kingdom cards/events/landmarks and so forth will maximise chaos?
Just show them how to empty the supply on the second turn.
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Have a Kingdom with no Actions, then Obelisk as the Landmark
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I was waiting for someone to suggest having every event + landmark. Let's just limit it to 2. Maybe 3 if there's some super bonus confusion you can get out of having all three, but yeah keep it limited.
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I would answer you, but I'm worried what you would do with this information to innocent people.
They aren't inn... I don't have any plans. Purely hypothetical question.
To implement you'd need friends after all.
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Have a Kingdom with no Actions, then Obelisk as the Landmark
I was confused by the right course of action for a moment, but then I realized that it's no different than any other "do as much as you can" situation in Dominion. You fail to choose the action card, so "the chosen card" doesn't exist, so no bonus points awarded.
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King's Court / Possession / Villa / Band of Misfits / Outpost / Mission / Donate
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Have a Kingdom with no Actions, then Obelisk as the Landmark
If Obelisk is the Landmark, i demand the chosen pile to be Ruins.
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Have a Kingdom with no Actions, then Obelisk as the Landmark
If Obelisk is the Landmark, i demand the chosen pile to be Ruins.
But the ruins will not be included unless there is a looter in the kingdom, and as far as I know there are no treasure-looters.
Tl;dr: Black market, Page, Peasant, Young Witch, Tournament, Gladiator/fortune (bane), Bishop, Hermit, Urchin, Marauder, Possession; Events: Inheritance, any other crazy event, preferably using debt, vp chips, or Adventures tokens; Landmarks: Mountain pass, Orchard
Also, a while ago I discovered how to maximize the number of different piles of cards in a kingdom:
Black Market, Page, Peasant, Young Witch, Tournament, Marauder, Urchin, Hermit, some prosperity card to use platinum/colony, and a potion cost to include potions, then two more random kingdom cards, that might be the bane, but most of the previously mentioned cards also work. Plus any events/landmarks. For some real rules fun, choose a split pile for the bane (probably gladiator/fortune, just for the debt), or throw in crown. Make sure to use shelters, the potion cost should be possession, and make sure the prosperity card hands out vp chips, solely for the posession confusion. Maybe bishop, because it cares about costs and will leave new players wondering how to count debt and potions.and because most of these are inheritable, add inheritance, which has extra special confusion if you inherit the bane card. No room here for villa, but that's fine, you could replace crown with it I suppose, which has even more fun if they inherit a villa...But back to the original kingdom, the second event should have either debt, vp chips, or adventures tokens. For landmarks, use orchard due to the sheer number of differing cards here, and Mountain pass to confuse them with the betting mechanic.
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Have a Kingdom with no Actions, then Obelisk as the Landmark
If Obelisk is the Landmark, i demand the chosen pile to be Ruins.
But the ruins will not be included unless there is a looter in the kingdom, and as far as I know there are no treasure-looters.
Tl;dr: Black market, Page, Peasant, Young Witch, Tournament, Gladiator/fortune (bane), Bishop, Hermit, Urchin, Marauder, Possession; Events: Inheritance, any other crazy event, preferably using debt, vp chips, or Adventures tokens; Landmarks: Mountain pass, Orchard
Also, a while ago I discovered how to maximize the number of different piles of cards in a kingdom:
Black Market, Page, Peasant, Young Witch, Tournament, Marauder, Urchin, Hermit, some prosperity card to use platinum/colony, and a potion cost to include potions, then two more random kingdom cards, that might be the bane, but most of the previously mentioned cards also work. Plus any events/landmarks. For some real rules fun, choose a split pile for the bane (probably gladiator/fortune, just for the debt), or throw in crown. Make sure to use shelters, the potion cost should be possession, and make sure the prosperity card hands out vp chips, solely for the posession confusion. Maybe bishop, because it cares about costs and will leave new players wondering how to count debt and potions.and because most of these are inheritable, add inheritance, which has extra special confusion if you inherit the bane card. No room here for villa, but that's fine, you could replace crown with it I suppose, which has even more fun if they inherit a villa...But back to the original kingdom, the second event should have either debt, vp chips, or adventures tokens. For landmarks, use orchard due to the sheer number of differing cards here, and Mountain pass to confuse them with the betting mechanic.
Your avatar is so truthful
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Your avatar is so truthful
Why thank you ;D
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Have a Kingdom with no Actions, then Obelisk as the Landmark
If Obelisk is the Landmark, i demand the chosen pile to be Ruins.
But the ruins will not be included unless there is a looter in the kingdom, and as far as I know there are no treasure-looters.
Tl;dr: Black market, Page, Peasant, Young Witch, Tournament, Gladiator/fortune (bane), Bishop, Hermit, Urchin, Marauder, Possession; Events: Inheritance, any other crazy event, preferably using debt, vp chips, or Adventures tokens; Landmarks: Mountain pass, Orchard
Also, a while ago I discovered how to maximize the number of different piles of cards in a kingdom:
Black Market, Page, Peasant, Young Witch, Tournament, Marauder, Urchin, Hermit, some prosperity card to use platinum/colony, and a potion cost to include potions, then two more random kingdom cards, that might be the bane, but most of the previously mentioned cards also work. Plus any events/landmarks. For some real rules fun, choose a split pile for the bane (probably gladiator/fortune, just for the debt), or throw in crown. Make sure to use shelters, the potion cost should be possession, and make sure the prosperity card hands out vp chips, solely for the posession confusion. Maybe bishop, because it cares about costs and will leave new players wondering how to count debt and potions.and because most of these are inheritable, add inheritance, which has extra special confusion if you inherit the bane card. No room here for villa, but that's fine, you could replace crown with it I suppose, which has even more fun if they inherit a villa...But back to the original kingdom, the second event should have either debt, vp chips, or adventures tokens. For landmarks, use orchard due to the sheer number of differing cards here, and Mountain pass to confuse them with the betting mechanic.
The Looter is in the Black Market deck, duh.
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The Looter is in the Black Market deck, duh.
Except there is no black market deck, because there is no black market, because black market is an action, and actions aren't in the kingdom
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The Looter is in the Black Market deck, duh.
Except there is no black market deck, because there is no black market, because black market is an action, and actions aren't in the kingdom
I see where you come from, but when I suggested to have Ruins being the chosen pile, I was not talking about wero's suggestion to have an actionless kingdom, but instead about how to apply Obelisk instead of that.
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The Looter is in the Black Market deck, duh.
Except there is no black market deck, because there is no black market, because black market is an action, and actions aren't in the kingdom
I see where you come from, but when I suggested to have Ruins being the chosen pile, I was not talking about wero's suggestion to have an actionless kingdom, but instead about how to apply Obelisk instead of that.
Oh...that would make a really interesting kingdom in general...is it still worth going for looters in that case? I would think yes, as long as they end up with enough ruins to offset the vp boost, but I'm not sure.
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The Looter is in the Black Market deck, duh.
Except there is no black market deck, because there is no black market, because black market is an action, and actions aren't in the kingdom
I see where you come from, but when I suggested to have Ruins being the chosen pile, I was not talking about wero's suggestion to have an actionless kingdom, but instead about how to apply Obelisk instead of that.
Knights works as well.
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You can always take Crown into actionless kingdom for Obelisk
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You can always take Crown into actionless kingdom for Obelisk
But then it isn't actionless anymore because it has crown, which is an action.