Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: GendoIkari on September 29, 2016, 03:47:21 pm
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I want to talk about Lurker (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Lurker), because it seems awesome.
In a Solitaire game, Lurker sounds like it becomes ridiculously strong. Like, there's not very many Kingdoms where I wouldn't open double-Lurker.
So in a 2 player game, it becomes a weird thing where if you open one, your opponent almost has to also open one. But you almost never want to be the first person to play it, so what do you do if you draw it before your opponent? You can trash a Ruins with it, that sounds like fun.
So as long as your opponent has a Lurker remaining in his shuffle, it sounds like the right play is to treat it as a Treasure Map (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Treasure_Map); never play one unless you have 2. I'm assuming of course a situation where there's not currently an action card in the trash.
And hey, what do you do when you draw King's Court (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/King's_Court) + Lurker? Of course you pretty much always play it, because worst-case you're just breaking even. Unless you think your opponent also has a King's Court + Lurker.
So anyway, I'm guessing that Lurker looks a lot stronger than it is, simply because it's its own "bane". But the fact that you have to buy one if your opponent does means that it is strong in that way at least.
Or, am I wrong about everything, and a simple journey-token version where you gain an action every-other-play isn't as strong as it sounds? Of course I'm assuming the presence of good action cards also. Especially with things like King's Court, Goons, and Grand Market. But even for good (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)s, it still sounds great.
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Just trash Fortresses from the supply, gaining them to your hand. :)
I think you can compare it to Rogue. It's a bit of a gamble, but it can certainly pay off.
It can be good in games where cards already get trashed anyway, such as Knights, Swindler, Graverobber and other TfBs.
Meaning you won't use Lurker for the trashing but rather the gaining. If you can gain anything you didn't have to trash, it's pretty strong.
It's funny when Rats is in the kingdom as this makes it essentially a cantrip until 20 Rats are in the trash. So you can just wait until something good hits the trash and keep trashing Rats otherwise.
I like the card a lot for its unique design.
You don't necessarily have to wait for something to hit the trash, you can do a bit of deck tracking and cycling to make it work.
If you have Lurker in hand with an empty deck and your opponent has a full deck and has just played his, you can risk it that you can play it twice.
Cartographer/Lurker seems like a decent opening maybe?
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Trashing Squire is also interesting. The presence of Squire on the board means that, as long as there are still Squires left, Lurker becomes a nonterminal gainer of any Attack, including stuff like Familiar and Goons (but thankfully excluding Possession).
There's also +3 Cards if you trash a Cultist, making it easier to buy more Cultists and possibly denying some to your opponent.
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Lurker is definitely really strong and a tricky card to work with.
The particular synergy I like with it are with Knights / Warrior, where you can scoop up actions from the trash. And unlike Rogue this isn't a compulsory thing! It's exciting stuff.
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I think Lurker/Knights will make for awful games. The nice thing about Knights is they can trash each other and the other two DA trash-gaining cards, so eventually they'll just be gone and you can play the rest of your game. I once had a 40 turn game with knights and rogue that made me late for class. With Lurker, those games could go on forever, with no player able to build past the Knights. Otherwise it seems like a cool card.
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There's also +3 Cards if you trash a Cultist, making it easier to buy more Cultists and possibly denying some to your opponent.
(It wouldn't deny Cultists to your opponent; they can just pull them out of the trash with their own Lurker)
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There's also +3 Cards if you trash a Cultist, making it easier to buy more Cultists and possibly denying some to your opponent.
(It wouldn't deny Cultists to your opponent; they can just pull them out of the trash with their own Lurker)
Oh yeah. Oops. So much for that idea.
I guess you can just pick them up yourself instead.
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King's Court + Lurker seems easy: Trash something you want, take it, then trash something that's not all that great, or a terminal that your opponent already has and really doesn't want another copy of (something Messenger frequently does.)
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Can you choose to gain something if there's nothing in the trash, gaining nothing?
I think so, Torturer also allows this.
So with KC, you can just trash-gain-nothing.
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Man I didn't even think of the Dark Ages when-trash cards. So if Cultist is in the Supply, Lurker is +3 Cards, +1 Action, for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png)!! For the first 10 times it gets played anyway.
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Man I didn't even think of the Dark Ages when-trash cards. So if Cultist is in the Supply, Lurker is +3 Cards, +1 Action, for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png)!! For the first 10 times it gets played anyway.
The Wiki thought of it~!
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Lurker can be used to deplete the top half of a split pile so you can get to the cards underneath.
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I wonder how good Feodum Lurker would be
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I wonder how good Feodum Lurker would be
Sounds really bad, Lurker can't trash Feodums.
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I wonder how good Feodum Lurker would be
Sounds really bad, Lurker can't trash Feodums.
Oh yah. Duh
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Lurker+Catacombs is basically an Ironworks that gives +Action every time.
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Lurker+Catacombs is basically an Ironworks that gives +Action every time.
It is even better than that. You can also gain catacombs if you want too.
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Lurker+Catacombs is basically an Ironworks that gives +Action every time.
It is even better than that. You can also gain catacombs if you want too.
Yep. Lurker + Catacombs should be great with any village costing $4 or less.
Lurker with...
Cultist - activated Menagerie
Fortress - non-terminal gain Fortress to hand!
Squire - non-terminal attack gainer
Catacombs - non-terminal Workshop
Hunting Grounds - non-terminal Duchy (or triple Estate) gainer
Sir Vander - non-terminal Gold gainer
Rats- cantrip (situationally useful)
Am I missing anything?
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Interestingly, Fortresses obtained with Lurker don't count for Watchtower, Trader, Smugglers and Treasure Hunter, because you never gained them.
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Interestingly, Fortresses obtained with Lurker don't count for Watchtower, Trader, Smugglers and Treasure Hunter, because you never gained them.
That's cool and weird. What other ways are there to get cards without gaining them? The only ones I can think of are Masquerade and exchanging Travellers.
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Interestingly, Fortresses obtained with Lurker don't count for Watchtower, Trader, Smugglers and Treasure Hunter, because you never gained them.
That's cool and weird. What other ways are there to get cards without gaining them? The only ones I can think of are Masquerade and exchanging Travellers.
Starting with them?
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Technically the card set aside by Inheritance belongs to you. I mean it never gets into your deck but it counts towards the value of your Gardens and so on.
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Interestingly, Fortresses obtained with Lurker don't count for Watchtower, Trader, Smugglers and Treasure Hunter, because you never gained them.
That's cool and weird. What other ways are there to get cards without gaining them? The only ones I can think of are Masquerade and exchanging Travellers.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13116.0
Indeed, Lurker/Fortress is a new addition to the list!
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I felt the need to resurrect this old thread because it is lacking a combination I found important: Alchemy cards.
The ability to gain Possession, for example, without doing anything other than opening Lurker-Lurker, is a game-changer; you can possess your opponent on turn 5! No potion necessary (for anything other than Philosopher's stone and Vineyard), not much lost and so much gained. Given that cards with a potion cost are made to be so good that a potion buy (that does nothing else for you) might actually be worth it even if only 2-3 are on the board, being able to get those cards without that otherwise worthless treasure is pretty awesome. (For Alchemist you may want a potion to topdeck them, but really they are gained just as easily as Labs, so you lose nothing in comparison by not having that extra ability. Also, you do not have to curse your luck when you draw 3P aiming for Golem while there are nice 5's you could have bought if you had gone silver instead.)
Side note on a power combo: Lurker+Scrying Pool. Open double Lurker, then trash/gain SPs while buying more Lurkers each turn. Your SPs draw your Lurkers to gain more SPs (and avoid tripping on that extra potion card), and you quickly draw your deck while winning both piles unless your opponent is mirroring. You should by then have 4-6 Lurkers to gain 2-3 action cards each turn that can usually be drawn and played the same turn you buy them, which can easily lead to a three-pile ending in your favour. I would love to see this simulated, not sure how to get the log from my last game with it.
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I felt the need to resurrect this old thread because it is lacking a combination I found important: Alchemy cards.
The ability to gain Possession, for example, without doing anything other than opening Lurker-Lurker, is a game-changer; you can possess your opponent on turn 5! No potion necessary (for anything other than Philosopher's stone and Vineyard), not much lost and so much gained. Given that cards with a potion cost are made to be so good that a potion buy (that does nothing else for you) might actually be worth it even if only 2-3 are on the board, being able to get those cards without that otherwise worthless treasure is pretty awesome. (For Alchemist you may want a potion to topdeck them, but really they are gained just as easily as Labs, so you lose nothing in comparison by not having that extra ability. Also, you do not have to curse your luck when you draw 3P aiming for Golem while there are nice 5's you could have bought if you had gone silver instead.)
Side note on a power combo: Lurker+Scrying Pool. Open double Lurker, then trash/gain SPs while buying more Lurkers each turn. Your SPs draw your Lurkers to gain more SPs (and avoid tripping on that extra potion card), and you quickly draw your deck while winning both piles unless your opponent is mirroring. You should by then have 4-6 Lurkers to gain 2-3 action cards each turn that can usually be drawn and played the same turn you buy them, which can easily lead to a three-pile ending in your favour. I would love to see this simulated, not sure how to get the log from my last game with it.
My experience with this is that it's very risky and probably not a good opening plan. Your opponent can also open Lurker and steal the Possession you put in the trash. If your lurkers don't cooperate and collide, you can end up with effectively dead hands.
Of course, once you have a deck that is drawing well, playing two Lurkers in a turn makes for a nice strategy.
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What has not been mentioned yet is end-game pile control Lurkers can drain a pile when you want to trigger a 3 pile but lack the coins or buys to empty it in the buy phase.
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What has not been mentioned yet is end-game pile control Lurkers can drain a pile when you want to trigger a 3 pile but lack the coins or buys to empty it in the buy phase.
It can help empty out the Scout pile without contaminating your deck
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What has not been mentioned yet is end-game pile control Lurkers can drain a pile when you want to trigger a 3 pile but lack the coins or buys to empty it in the buy phase.
It can help empty out the Scout pile without contaminating your deck
If only they exsited in the same universe
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What has not been mentioned yet is end-game pile control Lurkers can drain a pile when you want to trigger a 3 pile but lack the coins or buys to empty it in the buy phase.
It can help empty out the Scout pile without contaminating your deck
If only they exsited in the same universe
Donald had probably avoided making Lurker previously because the interaction with Scout was too OP.
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I'm glad it only works with Action cards, otherwise it would combo with Rebuild :|
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I feel like the addition of lurker adds another sub-theme to intrigue, self synergy. Minion, nobles, and now lurker work best when you have several copies, and or throne room/kings court.
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Lurker has a fun interaction with Castles, since Small Castle and Opulent Castle are both Action-Victory cards. You can play and trash your Small Castle to gain another Castle and then regain it with Lurker--just don't leave it in the trash too long or your opponent might nab it with their own Lurker!
Opulent Castle can also be trashed and gained with Lurker, which is helpful for getting it for the first time, and in rare cases can also make it a nice reusable target for TfB cards (TfB in general tends to make Lurker much stronger). For example, in a recent game, trashing Opulent Castle with Apprentice became my main source of draw (+7 cards!), and then I'd just make sure to pick it back up with Lurker to use again next turn.
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What other ways are there to get cards without gaining them?
Summoning Island?
EDIT: nevermind, just read the first word on Summon
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My experience with this is that it's very risky and probably not a good opening plan. Your opponent can also open Lurker and steal the Possession you put in the trash. If your lurkers don't cooperate and collide, you can end up with effectively dead hands.
Of course, once you have a deck that is drawing well, playing two Lurkers in a turn makes for a nice strategy.
Agreed, it is not a good opening plan for some cards (Scrying Pool being the main exception, providing non-terminal draw + loving actions + attacking opponent, I still think that is a rush), but depending on the actions and if my opponent opened first indicating a different strategy (or Potion indicating they wanted Alchemy cards themselves), I might still have my first buy be Lurker to see if they use their second turn to get one also. Definitely a card that benefits the second player in terms of being able to see strategy and respond. If there are only one or two Alchemy cards on the board, I might open Lurker over Potion as first player though, for its greater flexibility, not committing to the strategy and getting to see how my opponent responded--Kingdom dependent of course.
Lurker has a fun interaction with Castles, since Small Castle and Opulent Castle are both Action-Victory cards. You can play and trash your Small Castle to gain another Castle and then regain it with Lurker--just don't leave it in the trash too long or your opponent might nab it with their own Lurker!
Opulent Castle can also be trashed and gained with Lurker, which is helpful for getting it for the first time, and in rare cases can also make it a nice reusable target for TfB cards (TfB in general tends to make Lurker much stronger). For example, in a recent game, trashing Opulent Castle with Apprentice became my main source of draw (+7 cards!), and then I'd just make sure to pick it back up with Lurker to use again next turn.
That is...pretty cool actually. Just need Apprentice to draw one Lurker to keep the Castle away from anyone else too. And now I want to get enough Lurkers + Small Castle + draw to nab the last 2 Castles in one turn without having to buy them.