Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Let's Discuss ... => Topic started by: faust on September 05, 2016, 12:32:17 pm

Title: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Mountain Pass
Post by: faust on September 05, 2016, 12:32:17 pm: (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d5/Mountain_Pass.jpg/320px-Mountain_Pass.jpg)
I really hate Scout, *** you nerds, girls and booze - that is what matters

Okay, I realize there has already been a thread about this here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15633.msg608180#msg608180). It was all about the bidding though. We want to discuss the larger issues here. Like, how does your greening strategy change with this around? Which kind of decks get the largest benefit from the auction (i.e. can handle the debt better)? What kind of credit institute sets up shop on a Mountain Pass to give debt to people climbing through that cold, unforgiving place? Talk about subprime lendings. One day, that Mountain Pass bubble will burst, sending the whole Dominion into a deep recession until inflation runs so high that you have to pay $12 just to get a Village (Scout will still cost $4 though).
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Mountain Pass
Post by: McGarnacle on September 05, 2016, 01:26:00 pm: Another cool looking Landmark. I like the bidding effect, especially since 8VP will be worth more or less depending on the Kingdom.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Mountain Pass
Post by: drsteelhammer on September 05, 2016, 01:32:20 pm: Recently had a Mountain Pass/Tournament game, which is pretty oppressive, imo. Getting the first province means you get to prizes first aswell as having the advantage of bidding second. Furthermore, you're more than fine just gaining prizes +paying off debt whereas your opponent really can't take the debt since he has to buy a province as soon as possible. Really a lose/lose scenario.

Another thing: In Rebuild/ no Colony mirrors, it seems like taking 40debt is almost always the right move? Assuming you already have three Duchies.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Mountain Pass
Post by: Davio on September 05, 2016, 01:57:33 pm: Wouldn't you just automatically bid 1 more than your opponent a lot of the time?
Unless your opponent bids 40 of course.

But your opponent basically can't win. Either he has to bid an insane amount to keep you from overbidding, in which case he's hurting himself by accumulating that much debt. Or he bids something reasonable in which case it's often also reasonable to bid just one more.

Your opponent basically has to find the perfect tipping point, which is impossible.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Mountain Pass
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on September 05, 2016, 02:26:57 pm: Dude I forgot about that burning skull quote!
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Mountain Pass
Post by: AdrianHealey on September 05, 2016, 03:20:35 pm: Quote from: Davio on September 05, 2016, 01:57:33 pm
Wouldn't you just automatically bid 1 more than your opponent a lot of the time?
Unless your opponent bids 40 of course.

But your opponent basically can't win. Either he has to bid an insane amount to keep you from overbidding, in which case he's hurting himself by accumulating that much debt. Or he bids something reasonable in which case it's often also reasonable to bid just one more.

Your opponent basically has to find the perfect tipping point, which is impossible.

17 in a standard game, or what did we end up with?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Mountain Pass
Post by: Limetime on September 05, 2016, 07:51:43 pm: Actually if players play correctly it should not give anyone an advantage overall.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Mountain Pass
Post by: Jimmmmm on September 05, 2016, 08:29:52 pm: Quote from: Limetime on September 05, 2016, 07:51:43 pm
Actually if players play correctly it should not give anyone an advantage overall.

Unless one player can handle the debt better than the other (eg the Tournament example). If the 8 VP are worth 15 Debt to the first bidder but 20 Debt to the second, then the first bidder must either overpay or allow the second bidder to underpay.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Mountain Pass
Post by: Limetime on September 05, 2016, 09:12:35 pm: Quote from: Jimmmmm on September 05, 2016, 08:29:52 pm
Quote from: Limetime on September 05, 2016, 07:51:43 pm
Actually if players play correctly it should not give anyone an advantage overall.

Unless one player can handle the debt better than the other (eg the Tournament example). If the 8 VP are worth 15 Debt to the first bidder but 20 Debt to the second, then the first bidder must either overpay or allow the second bidder to underpay.

Take a look at this
Quote from: JW on June 08, 2016, 04:13:45 pm
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Mountain Pass
Post by: Jimmmmm on September 05, 2016, 09:22:47 pm: Quote from: Limetime on September 05, 2016, 09:12:35 pm
Quote from: Jimmmmm on September 05, 2016, 08:29:52 pm
Quote from: Limetime on September 05, 2016, 07:51:43 pm
Actually if players play correctly it should not give anyone an advantage overall.

Unless one player can handle the debt better than the other (eg the Tournament example). If the 8 VP are worth 15 Debt to the first bidder but 20 Debt to the second, then the first bidder must either overpay or allow the second bidder to underpay.

Take a look at this
Quote from: JW on June 08, 2016, 04:13:45 pm

That's more or less what I said. Mountain Pass gives an advantage to the player who can handle the debt better (or I suppose get more value from the VP tokens) - "The key to doing well is to have a higher valuation in debt for the 8 VP than your opponent, which may be related to being able to buy Province first - not the order of bidding."
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Mountain Pass
Post by: werothegreat on January 07, 2017, 06:03:30 pm: Is it ever not the best decision for the player who gets the first Province to take the debt and points? Since they can just outbid everyone else, and if they got a Province first, their deck can probably handle the debt best anyway, and it just becomes a runaway effect where one player is 14_{(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png)} ahead of everyone else.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Landmarks: Mountain Pass
Post by: aku_chi on January 07, 2017, 06:29:21 pm: Quote from: werothegreat on January 07, 2017, 06:03:30 pm
Is it ever not the best decision for the player who gets the first Province to take the debt and points? Since they can just outbid everyone else, and if they got a Province first, their deck can probably handle the debt best anyway, and it just becomes a runaway effect where one player is 14_{(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png)} ahead of everyone else.

Yes, it is sometimes not the best decision for the player who gets the first Province to take the debt and points. Obviously so, because the decision depends on what the other player bids.

mountainpassbiddingstrategy.com (http://mountainpassbiddingstrategy.com)

See JW's post on the subject (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15633.msg608008#msg608008).