Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: JThorne on August 30, 2016, 09:44:04 am
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I'm asking this because I was just bitten twice recently in exactly the same way. I need to check what is, on the average, the better play.
On a Remake board with a clear engine strategy, where you want at least some power $5-$6 cards, should you open Remake/Silver, or Remake/Village, Remake/Warehouse, Remake/Oasis, etc.
I ask because it seems to me that Remake happily changes Estates into Silvers, giving you a lot of economy that you don't have to buy, allowing you to use buys on engine parts.
This doesn't work as well when you draw Remake with no Estates after your first two shuffles!! Not only do you not get the economy, but it's a lot harder to buy things on $2 turns when you're trashing two coppers. It's like T5CS. It can actually make Chapel look bad, and that's hard to do.
I know that it's possible to open Remake/Silver, then remake the Estates into engine parts, but I'm wondering if that's less optimal, in that non-terminal engine parts usually draw and/or cycle, and buying a Silver you won't ultimately need is one more card you'll have to trash later to get thin. Then again, if you draw Silver with Remake after the shuffle, I guess you still get to trash two and buy a $3.
I know there's edge cases and "depends on the kingdom" and all that. I'm just wondering if Remake/Silver should be the default on an engine board.
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If you want those $5/$6 cards early, I'd go for Remake/Silver, I think. Having a bit too many Silvers in your deck with Remake present is not quite as bad, because you could also remake those into $4 engine parts if needed (they're usually there).
Remake/Oasis looks worse than Remake/Silver because you want to trash Estates, not discard them. Opening Village is generally meh. Only Remake/Warehouse might be stronger than Remake/Silver, because Remake is such a power card that you would maybe like to sift for it. But that depends on how badly you want those $5/$6 cards.
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"It depends on the board", but you generally want Remake / Silver on boards with power $5s you need to get soon. Keep in mind, Remake can make Estates into literally any of the cards you just named as well, and rarely do you need a Village on the first shuffle. Meanwhile opening Silver increases the chances of either a $5 turn or a Remake 2 cards + $3 buy turn, both of which are a momentum advantage. Eventually if you really want to get rid of the Silver you can make it into another Remake and continue your deck's ascent into thin greatness.
If the board is mostly $3s and $4s maybe you would take Remake / Warehouse to cycle faster, though?
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Well like, think of it this way. How many silvers do you plan to buy this game? Ok. Well silver is strong early and weaker later in the game, while, village is weaker early and stronger later in the game. So if you plan to buy at least one silver this game, you should get it before the other cards, unless there is something even more earlygame oriented than silver. Probably there isn't since those tend to be terminal like jack of all trades or sea hag.
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According to this site (http://councilroom.com/openings),
Remake / Fishing Village > Remake / Wishing Well > Remake / Village > Remake / Warehouse > Remake / Scheme > Remake / Silver > Remake / Oasis ...
(I know, depends on the board, that's old data, blah blah blah don't care.)
So yes, Remake / engine-component-other-than-Silver can be better than Silver, and perhaps even is most of the time. I think to answer the "depends on the board" part, you have to look at how beneficial it is to spiking $5 early, the probability in which you can still spike $5 with the engine component, and if there are other tricks to spiking $5 other than paying the old fashioned way for it (Borrow, Ferry, Alms, debt, etc.).
I am VERY surprised Remake / Silver > Remake / Oasis in that list though. Wouldn't have expected that.
Also I would have thought Remake / Scheme would have been a lot better, cus Remaking twice early is just so so good.
EDIT:
Just open Remake / Ferry, turn Estates into Minions, no need for Silvers
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8wCphu70Lik/UBDFg8zTPOI/AAAAAAAABSk/kPbOsd55bjM/s1600/chuck-norris-thumbs-up.jpg)
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That data is from before we had DA, Guilds, and Adventures. I also think players are much better now.
With that said, I think a cycler like oasis is better. If you hit $4 instead of $5, buy another remake. Now, you either trash quicker or remake your remake into a part $5.
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Why is remake village better than remake silver though????
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Why is remake village better than remake silver though????
Because you don't need really villages if you can't get to $5.
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Why is remake village better than remake silver though????
Because you don't need really villages if you can't get to $5.
Village never* is the same as nothing first reshuffle.
*I am sure you can find an edge case
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Why is remake village better than remake silver though????
Because you don't need really villages if you can't get to $5.
Remake/Village is better than Remake/Silver, not the other way round.
And I bet that it's mostly because people who weren't very good players in general were overrepresented in the Remake/Silver stats. Remake/Village does have some advantages over Remake/Silver, but it's hard to see them being that relevant.
I am VERY surprised Remake / Silver > Remake / Oasis in that list though. Wouldn't have expected that.
I'm not surprised. If you have both Remake and Oasis in the same hand, you're probably going to discard a Copper to Oasis, and that's super bad.
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Assuming you eventually do get a Silver, is Remake / Village really better than Remake / Silver? The only thing the early Village gets you is fewer stop cards in the second shuffle. Lowers the chances of Remake missing the shuffle by a lot, which actually now that I'm typing the words on my screen seems probably important enough to be of merit on boards with many of your components being below $5... Like boards with Village on them. Huh.
I'd still probably Remake / Silver if I'm going to eventually get a Silver at all, but there are cases where each of them are the right move.
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I have remoddeled copper/copper the first time I had remake (even with estate), just to make sure I get remake faster into my hand (probably on boards where getting $5 fast wasn't the biggest of all deals.) I wonder if other people do this.
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I have remoddeled copper/copper the first time I had remake (even with estate), just to make sure I get remake faster into my hand (probably on boards where getting $5 fast wasn't the biggest of all deals.) I wonder if other people do this.
sometimes its better most of the time its not.