Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: NoMoreFun on August 01, 2016, 10:48:40 am
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It came to me that treasures costing $4 could also be events costing $P with +1 Buy. The potion.
Of the $4 treasures that exist, Quarry makes the most sense:
Quarry
Event - $P
+1 Buy
+$1
Action cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0
It also allows for simple cards that may not really justify a full slot. So, for example, a non terminal workshop variant:
Conjure
Event - $P
+1 Buy
Gain a card costing up to $4
Something to consider if your fan expansion has cards costing $P.
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Interesting ideas. I'm still waiting for donald to do an alchemy pt. II, because I believe that alchemy would have been better as a full expansion. But I'm getting of topic.
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I think it'd also be interesting to have an event that gives a potion and a buy.
Event name - $2
+ potion
+ buy
(didn't give much thought to the pricing or other things you could do with it)
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Or better yet, a Event that costs 2 (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png)
Lapis Philosophorum
Event
Cost: 2(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png)
+1 Buy
Trash 2(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png) from play. If you did, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck.
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Or better yet, a Event that costs 2 (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png)
Lapis Philosophorum
Event
Cost: 2(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png)
+1 Buy
Trash 2(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png) from play. If you did, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck.
No, we can do this better without the potion. Just make it cost something like... $8 maybe? But then it's too easy. What if we made it a kingdom card costing $4? Then, instead of having to deal with potions, you just have to collide two copies of the kingdom cards, and it looks like this:
"Lapis Philosophorum
Action
Cost: $4
Trash this and another copy of Lapis philosophorum from your hand. If you do, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck."
Isn't that better?
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Or better yet, a Event that costs 2 (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png)
Lapis Philosophorum
Event
Cost: 2(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png)
+1 Buy
Trash 2(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png) from play. If you did, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck.
Much stronger than Treasure Map; a lot of the difficulty lining up comes from the fact that it's a terminal action. A better comparison is Fools Gold (which IIRC is generally considered underpriced at $2)
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Or better yet, a Event that costs 2 (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png)
Lapis Philosophorum
Event
Cost: 2(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png)
+1 Buy
Trash 2(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png) from play. If you did, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck.
Much stronger than Treasure Map; a lot of the difficulty lining up comes from the fact that it's a terminal action. A better comparison is Fools Gold (which IIRC is generally considered underpriced at $2)
I dunno, I think Fool's Gold is well priced at $2.
Lapis Philosophorum isn't stronger than Treasure Map if it's the only Potion-cost thing on the board. Also, the fact that you can't trigger it in the action phase is a drawback sometimes.
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Or better yet, a Event that costs 2 (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png)
Lapis Philosophorum
Event
Cost: 2(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png)
+1 Buy
Trash 2(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7a/Potion.png/9px-Potion.png) from play. If you did, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck.
Much stronger than Treasure Map; a lot of the difficulty lining up comes from the fact that it's a terminal action. A better comparison is Fools Gold (which IIRC is generally considered underpriced at $2)
I dunno, I think Fool's Gold is well priced at $2.
Lapis Philosophorum isn't stronger than Treasure Map if it's the only Potion-cost thing on the board. Also, the fact that you can't trigger it in the action phase is a drawback sometimes.
Terminal draw makes it easier to line up the two potions. I can't remember the last time I activated a Treasure Map then drew but that is a fair point.
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A P-costing event can be fun!
Druidic Ritual
Event
Cost: P
+1 Buy
Gain an Action card costing up to $ where $ is the number of Action cards in play.
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It came to me that treasures costing $4 could also be events costing $P with +1 Buy.
Is it a common notion that $P is equivalent to $4? I mean a potion *costs* $4, but then a Gold costs $6.
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It's a fool's notion.
You really can't translate something costing P to a non-P equivalent.
If you would say that P (costing $4) gives the equivalent of $2.5 (Silver gives $2, Gold gives $3) you could argue that 4P can get you a Province.
This is obviously false.
The most important thing about P is that with one P in your deck, you can only buy one P-costing card per shuffle (barring stuff like Stonemason).
So you would only be able to activate the event costing P once every shuffle.
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It came to me that treasures costing $4 could also be events costing $P with +1 Buy.
Is it a common notion that $P is equivalent to $4? I mean a potion *costs* $4, but then a Gold costs $6.
I think you misunderstand what NoMoreFun is saying. He doesn't say "$P is worth $4". He says "Hey, instead of adding Talisman to a board, we could just as well include this Event:
Talismania - Event $P
+1 buy
+1$
This turn, when you buy a card costing $4 or less that is not a Victory card, gain a copy of it.
Thus Potion acts as a proxy Talisman, which works because both cost $4. Of course the above mentioned Event works differently from Talisman in some ways.
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Lapis Philosophorum isn't stronger than Treasure Map if it's the only Potion-cost thing on the board.
As you do not have to spend an action in order to convert the 2 Potions into 4 Gold it is.
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It came to me that treasures costing $4 could also be events costing $P with +1 Buy.
Is it a common notion that $P is equivalent to $4? I mean a potion *costs* $4, but then a Gold costs $6.
I think you misunderstand what NoMoreFun is saying. He doesn't say "$P is worth $4". He says "Hey, instead of adding Talisman to a board, we could just as well include this Event:
Talismania - Event $P
+1 buy
+1$
This turn, when you buy a card costing $4 or less that is not a Victory card, gain a copy of it.
Thus Potion acts as a proxy Talisman, which works because both cost $4. Of course the above mentioned Event works differently from Talisman in some ways.
Oh I see, you buy a Potion and use it as a Quarry/Talisman by way of the event.
This means no Black Market shenanigans.
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I think you misunderstand what NoMoreFun is saying. He doesn't say "$P is worth $4". He says "Hey, instead of adding Talisman to a board, we could just as well include this Event:
Talismania - Event $P
+1 buy
+1$
This turn, when you buy a card costing $4 or less that is not a Victory card, gain a copy of it.
Thus Potion acts as a proxy Talisman, which works because both cost $4. Of course the above mentioned Event works differently from Talisman in some ways.
Oh I see, you buy a Potion and use it as a Quarry/Talisman by way of the event.
This means no Black Market shenanigans.
Joining in shouting "I see".
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How about this?
Multiply
cost P
+1 Buy
In this turn, when you buy a card costing up to $6, gain a copy of that card.
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There are subtle differences but until another card is developed that gives +$P, buying an event costing $P which gives +buy is equivalent to playing a $4 treasure with that event's effect.
Non terminals that revolve around gaining, trashing, attacking, deck inspection and +buy could fit in this design space. +$ could work as long as care is taken to avoid making potion strictly better than Silver in games with that event (although perhaps a future expansion will question the orthodoxy that $4 cards must not be strictly better than Silver).
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What if it only trashed one of your potions. Then it wouldn't be better than treasure map because one of the potions would stay as a dead card for you
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Terminal draw makes it easier to line up the two potions. I can't remember the last time I activated a Treasure Map then drew but that is a fair point.
Hm, fair point on terminal draw!
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I will just mention this Potion event i did quite a while ago:
Research, P
+1 Buy
Once per turn: Name a card. When you discard copies of that card from play this turn, you may put them on top of your deck.
It basically makes any card Alchemist and has been nice in playtesting. The "Once per turn" is because without it, "Gold, Gold, Gold, Potion, Potion" allows you to buy a Province each turn - a fact some clever forumite pointed out.
Edit: It actually feels as if Potion was another card with this - pretty much what NoMoreFun was saying.
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It more or less makes Potion a non-terminal yet non-cantrip version of Scheme which topdecks all copies of a card instead of just one card.
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It more or less makes Potion a non-terminal yet non-cantrip version of Scheme which topdecks all copies of a card instead of just one card.
Yes. They work for very different decks, though.
Plus: Can't be drawn dead, topdecks multiple cards
Negative: Costs more, can only topdeck one kind of card, gives no +Card
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Research, P
+1 Buy
Once per turn: Name a card. When you discard copies of that card from play this turn, you may put them on top of your deck.
I find it funny that Lab+Research is basically the same as an Alchemist stack.
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A few ideas (some I've posted before)
Magic Amulet
Event - $P
+1 Buy, +$1
Choose two, each other player may do the option you didn't choose: Gain a Silver; trash a card from your hand; +1 card at the end of this turn
Graduate
Event - $P
+1 Buy
Trash a card you have in play. Gain an Action card costing up to $1 more than it on your deck.
Ritual
Event - $P
+2 Buys
+$1
When you buy a card this turn, you may trash a card from your hand
Transfigure
Event - $P
+1 buy
Place your Potion token on the supply pile of an Action costing up to $5
(You may play Potion during your Action phase as if it were a copy of that card. Potion is that card until it leaves play)
Ghost Hunt
Event - $1P
+1 Buy
+2 Cards
You may return any number of cards to your deck
Once per turn: Gain a card with a cost in $ to the number of cards you have in your hand. Trash a Potion from play if it's a Victory card.
Unicorn
Event - $2P
+1 Buy
Draw 3 extra cards for your next hand
Cocktail
Event - $PP
+2 Buys
+$6
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As Cocktail basically makes Potion a Gold+ if you connect two of them, it seems a bit unrewarding to me. I'm not as sure here, as the first comparison i can think of is Treasure Map, which only works once and is terminal, but gives a much more effectful reward. Horse Trader also comes to mind, and again has a few disadvantages over Potion (discarding, terminal), but also is much more flexible and has a Reaction.
Graduate seems cool and is easy to get. It's probably the one that works best as a Potion event because it doesn't do too many different things. Unicorn also is pretty easy - but isn't it a bit weak compared to Expedition, even with the +Buy?
I also like the idea behind Transfigure, although there i actually feel it would work better as an Action card. Maybe it's a bit too strong to be able to buy any $5 for just $4 by making the first one (non-terminally) dead. Consider Feast as a comparison, although of course even Feast has an advantage being able to gain VP cards.
While i think that Magic Amulet and Ghost Hunt are cool, i think they do a bit more complex than i would expect from an Event. Ritual is kind of on the edge here for me.
Research, P
+1 Buy
Once per turn: Name a card. When you discard copies of that card from play this turn, you may put them on top of your deck.
I find it funny that Lab+Research is basically the same as an Alchemist stack.
That's the joke ;)
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As Cocktail basically makes Potion a Gold+ if you connect two of them, it seems a bit unrewarding to me. I'm not as sure here, as the first comparison i can think of is Treasure Map, which only works once and is terminal, but gives a much more effectful reward. Horse Trader also comes to mind, and again has a few disadvantages over Potion (discarding, terminal), but also is much more flexible and has a Reaction.
Graduate seems cool and is easy to get. It's probably the one that works best as a Potion event because it doesn't do too many different things. Unicorn also is pretty easy - but isn't it a bit weak compared to Expedition, even with the +Buy?
I also like the idea behind Transfigure, although there i actually feel it would work better as an Action card. Maybe it's a bit too strong to be able to buy any $5 for just $4 by making the first one (non-terminally) dead. Consider Feast as a comparison, although of course even Feast has an advantage being able to gain VP cards.
While i think that Magic Amulet and Ghost Hunt are cool, i think they do a bit more complex than i would expect from an Event. Ritual is kind of on the edge here for me.
The main comparison for Cocktail is Fool's Gold, which is very powerful. Maybe +$7 is better and there's room for more interesting effects.
Unicorn was my attempt at turning Stables into an Event, but $1P seemed too cheap given all the ways you can make $1.
Transfigure is better than Feast (it's basically Feast, and the card you gained costs $1 less for the rest of the game), but Feast is really weak to begin with. Graduate is also a Feast variant (you can trash the potion to gain a $5).
For Magic Amulet I was thinking of the "you get 2, everyone else gets one" effect, realised it would need to be non terminal (since another player getting an effect is equivalent to them playing a cantrip with that effect), then thought it could be a Treasure, then I remembered this thread.
Ghost Hunt sprawled in complexity as I was typing it: "What if you draw a good card? Top deck option. Does it get too strong with stacking? Once per turn. Does it get provinces too easily? Trash the potion".
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I wonder if you could make an Event involving potions that does something appropriate and has a below-line:
Setup: All cards cost $P more this game.
(Or maybe all cards and events.)
Would really wonk-up gainers (in most cases make them useless), and also all those deck-destroying cards (Knights, Sab, etc.), and likely make the game really long. Or maybe it could be only 'All Victory cards'; that way it wouldn't cripple so many cards.
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I wonder if you could make an Event involving potions that does something appropriate and has a below-line:
Setup: All cards cost $P more this game.
(Or maybe all cards and events.)
Would really wonk-up gainers (in most cases make them useless), and also all those deck-destroying cards (Knights, Sab, etc.), and likely make the game really long. Or maybe it could be only 'All Victory cards'; that way it wouldn't cripple so many cards.
You can't since you would never be able to buy Potion. However, only making Victory cards cost P more would definitely make Potion cost cards more viable.
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I wonder if you could make an Event involving potions that does something appropriate and has a below-line:
Setup: All cards cost $P more this game.
(Or maybe all cards and events.)
Would really wonk-up gainers (in most cases make them useless), and also all those deck-destroying cards (Knights, Sab, etc.), and likely make the game really long. Or maybe it could be only 'All Victory cards'; that way it wouldn't cripple so many cards.
You can't since you would never be able to buy Potion. However, only making Victory cards cost P more would definitely make Potion cost cards more viable.
Ah, right, good point. The latter idea seems like it could work, though.
Edit: Well, I guess you could do all non-Treasure cards. Wouldn't want someone to be unable to buy Copper either.