Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Game Reports => Topic started by: Kirian on June 30, 2016, 01:40:15 pm

Title: Watch my opponent and I make so many mistakes...
Post by: Kirian on June 30, 2016, 01:40:15 pm
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/1/1f/Feodum.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Feodum) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/c1/Herald.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Herald) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/6/63/Noble_Brigand.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Noble Brigand) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/cb/Spy.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Spy) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/1/10/Duke.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Duke) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/e/ed/Tactician.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Tactician) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/e/ef/Venture.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Venture)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/3/34/Mission.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mission) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/d/df/Seaway.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Seaway) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/fa/Black_Market.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Black Market) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/e/ec/Gear.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Gear) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/5/59/Duplicate.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Duplicate)
Code: [Select]
Mission, Seaway, Black Market, Gear, Duplicate, Feodum, Herald, Noble Brigand, Spy, Duke, Tactician, Venture
https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160630/log.0.1467304725506.txt

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So the obvious thing here is Tactician-Black Market.  I of course completely miss this, thinking hey, Gear and Herald look pretty good, and we can sprinkle in some Black Markets!  Then instead of buying Heralds, I buy... other stuff for some reason.

Meanwhile, my opponent has gone Tactician-Black Market; they asked in chat if I had missed it or decided against!  Then they get Mountebank and Haunted Woods out of the Black Market deck, which was almost doom... but Herald is the only village and the only good Seaway buy.  So they end up hitting Tactician with Herald several times.

Obviously I made more mistakes than my opponent, though I wonder how much of my deficit was the Mountebank.
Title: Re: Watch my opponent and I make so many mistakes...
Post by: traces Around on June 30, 2016, 02:02:46 pm
This is a great example of black market making people do really silly things and making the game last 10 turns longer than it should.
Title: Re: Watch my opponent and I make so many mistakes...
Post by: Seprix on June 30, 2016, 02:20:30 pm
You said it yourself when you said you didn't go for Tac/Black Market. That's pretty much the only viable strategy here, period. Pretty odd board.
Title: Re: Watch my opponent and I make so many mistakes...
Post by: Chris is me on June 30, 2016, 02:46:40 pm
Herald and Tac have such bad synergy that I would honestly consider skipping Tac just to avoid it, depending entirely on if I could get a Trasher out of the BM deck or not.
Title: Re: Watch my opponent and I make so many mistakes...
Post by: Seprix on June 30, 2016, 02:48:52 pm
I agree that this board highly depends on what is in the Black Market. Another option is to go for Duplicate/Duchy/Duke, but I don't know how strong that really is. I'm going to say not very.
Title: Re: Watch my opponent and I make so many mistakes...
Post by: shark_bait on June 30, 2016, 03:10:14 pm
Is it viable to go full duplicate/silver and then empty the duchy pile in a single buy and then do the same for duke?  If you overpay for duplicate on a $5 hand you need to use said duplicate twice for it to make up for itself. Once for duchies I guess and then again for duke.
Title: Re: Watch my opponent and I make so many mistakes...
Post by: Seprix on June 30, 2016, 03:13:09 pm
Quote from: shark_bait on June 30, 2016, 03:10:14 pm
Is it viable to go full duplicate/silver and then empty the duchy pile in a single buy and then do the same for duke?  If you overpay for duplicate on a $5 hand you need to use said duplicate twice for it to make up for itself. Once for duchies I guess and then again for duke.

I think you are right, and that holding on to the Duplicate until later might be more sound. The problem is that Duchy is getting ignored for Duplicate. I think there's a magic number for how many Duplicates you tend to want in such a board. Who knew that the mechanics of Duplicate are so tricky?
Title: Re: Watch my opponent and I make so many mistakes...
Post by: Chris is me on June 30, 2016, 04:00:24 pm
Quote from: shark_bait on June 30, 2016, 03:10:14 pm
Is it viable to go full duplicate/silver and then empty the duchy pile in a single buy and then do the same for duke?  If you overpay for duplicate on a $5 hand you need to use said duplicate twice for it to make up for itself. Once for duchies I guess and then again for duke.

Hint: early on you'll occasionally but not always want to use Duplicate on a Duplicate buy.

I legitimately think the seven Duplicates strategy beats the non-mirror here, but if your opponent starts buying Duchy you have to basically immediately cut that shit out and work with what you've got.
Title: Re: Watch my opponent and I make so many mistakes...
Post by: aku_chi on June 30, 2016, 05:45:09 pm
Mission could help the Duplicate-Duke strategy.  Use Mission turns to get your Duplicates in the Tavern faster.  If you have 5+ coins on your Mission turn, you can use Seaway to gain another Duplicate.
Title: Re: Watch my opponent and I make so many mistakes...
Post by: The Do-Operator on July 03, 2016, 11:56:55 am
I was your opponent in this game. Thank you so much to everyone for commenting. I obviously made a lot of mistakes here:

(1) As has been correctly pointed out, the Herald/Tactician interaction is awful. The reason I went for Herald was that there was only one village in the Black Market (Wandering Minstrel), and also no other good targets for Seaway, and no buys other than a Baron in the Black Market. I made a guesstimate that this particular interaction would occur once in the game, and that one lost turn would be worth it in order to get action-splitting and buys. In retrospect this was probably a mistake. My guesstimate was probably wrong, at least with the number of Heralds I was getting. Has anyone tried to calculate how many herald-induced plays of tactician one can expect in a deck with two tacticians (one of which will tend to be out at the beginning of the turn)?

(2) As has also been correctly pointed out, I made some weak and unnecessary black market buys, including courtyard and haunted woods.  I have no excuse for this, this was just an embarrassing misplay

(3) The mistake that felt most pertinent in real time was that I failed to make good use of mission.  Several times I failed to play tactician, and I think in some cases I could have recovered by playing tactician in a Mission turn.