Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: Deadlock39 on June 20, 2016, 11:35:11 pm
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I was thinking about whether any of the official cards might be interesting with Debt costs. The only real idea that came to my mind, based on Donate's cost, was: What if Chapel cost ~(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/21/Debt5.png/18px-Debt5.png) instead of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png)? It keeps it's accessibility, but has a cost that is more aligned with it's strength. Is that better or is it just stupid?
That's pretty much all I thought of, but I figured I'd post it because there might be other cards that be interesting to restrict gaining or remodeling on.
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I was thinking about whether any of the official cards might be interesting with Debt costs. The only real idea that came to my mind, based on Donate's cost, was: What if Chapel cost ~(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/21/Debt5.png/18px-Debt5.png) instead of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png)? It keeps it's accessibility, but has a cost that is more aligned with it's strength. Is that better or is it just stupid?
That's pretty much all I thought of, but I figured I'd post it because there might be other cards that be interesting to restrict gaining or remodeling on.
Great idea for chapel, not sure how much it is needed for other cards.
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Trashers that cost 5$ (or more?) come to mind (Trading Post, I am looking at you). The difference between getting them before the first shuffle or not is pretty huge. I can't really think of anything else, aside from the Engineer case where you want to avoid interactions.
I don't think giving Chapel a debt cost of 5$ changes much, other than giving new players an idea of its powerlevel (was that your point?).
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Trashers that cost 5$ (or more?) come to mind (Trading Post, I am looking at you). The difference between getting them before the first shuffle or not is pretty huge. I can't really think of anything else, aside from the Engineer case where you want to avoid interactions.
I don't think giving Chapel a debt cost of 5$ changes much, other than giving new players an idea of its powerlevel (was that your point?).
Well, it does equalize the opening a bit more. Chapel was priced at $2 so that everyone could open it. At $3 or $4, a 5/2 opening would be much worse than 3/4. But at $2, 5/2 can be a lot better than 3/4 anyway. If Chapel cost <5> instead, then no matter the opening you probably end up opening Chapel/- or Chapel/$2, or else opening X/Chapel and having a fair amount of debt to pay off on turn 3. It would need testing, but that seems like it would be a lot more even a start to me.
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I think that Dominion's great expensive snowballers (first and foremost King's Court) could do with a debt cost between <8> and <10> I guess. It might just be a pet peeve of mine, but I think many King's Court games are simple decided the moment one player plays KC on a decent action while the other is still struggling to spike 7.
The challenge of hitting big costs early is interesting, but on such a snowballing utility card it leads to huge variance. (adding to the inherent variance of Throne room variants, which is in the higher part of the spectrun)
Debt is a great way to fix this "powerful and expensive engine piece problem", since it keeps the opportunity costs of an expensive card, without limiting its availability.
Another possible "fix" for KC I'd like to try is to make it cost 6 (or even 5?) with a Grand Market-like clause preventing you to buy it if you have a King's Court in play. It might make the crazy KC decks harder to build, but I personally would probably enjoy it more, including the challenge of finding a way to get several KCs in my deck.
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It is not an official card but Roadrunner's Pilgrim (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14585.0;all) would probably OK at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d4/Debt8.png/18px-Debt8.png).
It is not something you want early, which is probably the most important criterium for a debt card, and in Duke games you still don't want it too early lest you get no economy going which you need for the Dukes or a second Pilgrim.
About debt-ifying KC, I fear that a dominant strategy might be to buy just Actions for the first 3 or 4 moves and then buy a KC. Even though your action density might still be a bit low the chance of an early KC hitting an Action card might very well make up for this. Hard to tell though without testing it.
Other expensive cards are more clear cut: Forge and Expand are trashers so you want them immediately and Prince and Possession are also something you want fairly early so debt-ifying any of them would not be a good idea.
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I think if you were going to Debt-ify King's Court for the reasons given, a more appropriate cost would be something like (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f5/Debt3.png/18px-Debt3.png) to (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/21/Debt5.png/18px-Debt5.png) instead of it being all Debt. Then you are still required to build at least in a typical way that can hit (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) but it is something you can do more consistently than (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/bc/Coin7.png/16px-Coin7.png)
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How about: $5 and $16debt?
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I'd still buy it.
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I think if you were going to Debt-ify King's Court for the reasons given, a more appropriate cost would be something like (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f5/Debt3.png/18px-Debt3.png) to (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/21/Debt5.png/18px-Debt5.png) instead of it being all Debt. Then you are still required to build at least in a typical way that can hit (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) but it is something you can do more consistently than (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/bc/Coin7.png/16px-Coin7.png)
I like (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/21/Debt5.png/18px-Debt5.png). It is nicely symmetrical too.