Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Chris is me on May 26, 2016, 02:45:30 pm
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So I'm introducing a new friend to Dominion again and I'm also bored at work, so I'm trying to figure out good Kingdoms for the first few games or so. I'm really quite sick of the First Game kingdom, and would be interested in some alternatives, either tweaking that kingdom or a new one entirely. Cards from multiple expansions are okay.
Themes I'm hoping to capture in 2-3 games:
- Trashing good
- Engines are cool, but a really bad engine is worse than BM
- Player interaction through both attacks and Supply pile management
- this game is v good
So far searching hasn't yielded too much but this Wero post is nice: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12939.msg481719#msg481719
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I have been teaching a lot of new players the game. Interestingly, Adventures has some simple cards that newer players like.
Treasure Trove is a hit with all new players. Seaside Durations are pretty easy to grasp and straightforward. I would leave Moat out the first game. Save Chapel for game 2 or 3 and tell everyone this is the best card in the game. They won't believe you, and they will think you're insane when you trash all your starting cards.
Here is a sample first game kingdom off my head.
Treasure Trove
Caravan
Village
Smithy
Market
Magpie
Militia
Hireling
Throne Room
Warehouse
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it should have menagerie
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Treasure Trove
Caravan
Village
Smithy
Market
Magpie
Militia
Hireling
Throne Room
Warehouse
The first game should have trashing since that's an important mechanic to introduce. I like Cutpurse as a first game attack because it doesn't take any time to make decisions. Also, Throne Room seems like a second game card, especially if you're going to pair it with duration. There's also a bit too much draw here.
I'd suggest taking out Militia, Throne Room, and one of Caravan/Magpie (probably Magpie) for Cutpurse, Upgrade (or Junk Dealer, but that might seem too similar to Market), and Lighthouse.
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No to Lighthouse. I think new players need to experience attacks without a moat-like effect. I agree TR was a bad idea in the kingdom I posted. Cutpurse over Militia seems fine. Perhaps Moneylender to replace warehouse.
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Actually I think Moneylender is probably better off over Magpie than Warehouse? Sifting is cool, and it provides a way for a pseudo engine to work even if you don't pick up on getting a lot of Upgrades. Magpie kind of super encourages a Treasure flood, which you can't always get away with. So here's what I'm thinking for Kingdom 1:
Treasure Trove
Caravan
Village
Smithy
Market
Moneylender
Cutpurse
Hireling
Upgrade
Warehouse
Now I need to work on that Chapel-oriented Kingdom 2. Got any ideas there?
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Actually I think Moneylender is probably better off over Magpie than Warehouse? Sifting is cool, and it provides a way for a pseudo engine to work even if you don't pick up on getting a lot of Upgrades. Magpie kind of super encourages a Treasure flood, which you can't always get away with. So here's what I'm thinking for Kingdom 1:
Treasure Trove
Caravan
Village
Smithy
Market
Moneylender
Cutpurse
Hireling
Upgrade
Warehouse
Now I need to work on that Chapel-oriented Kingdom 2. Got any ideas there?
I would dump Caravan, Hireling and Upgrade. You're introducing a new game to people, your goal is to introduce them to the basics without giving them too many confusing decisions (like Pawn or even Remodel can) and without adding more subtle mechanics whose benefit might not immediately be apparent (so no Chancellor, no Durations).
To replace them, I would add a gainer (either Workshop or Smugglers), a universal trasher (Salvager works well, and is easier to intuit than Remodel - Upgrade is bad because you have to explain that Upgrading Copper gives you nothing), and a cheap, simple (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) (Cellar is redundant with Warehouse in the kingdom, I would go with either Moat or Pearl Diver or Courtyard).
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From my experience at teaching Dominion, I don't find this babysitting approach to be optimal. When teaching any new game (no just Dominion) to new players, I want their reaction to be "This is fun" and not "This maybe could be more fun if we were allowed to play with all these cool cards". I want them to see Dominion in all it's variety and be awed by the game. What I don't want is to limit their first and most important Dominion gaming experience to basic cards.
I own three physical sets - Base, Prosperity and Intrigue. Whenever I introduced new players Dominion for the first time, I always had the same approach - shuffle the randomizer deck and randomly select 10 cards which constitute a kingdom, only banning out Spy (because in 4p new players buy it a lot and it takes forever for game to end) and Torturer (because 3+p Torturer game is truly a unfun torture) for the sole reason they reduce the "fun" factor. And before anyone asks - if I had more complex sets (e.g. Dark Ages), I would include it in randomizer as well.
This approach always worked. Every single time. Yes, new players didn't play their decks optimally. Yes, they bought wrong cards and played them in less than good way. Yes, they lost games. But, and it's indeed a big "but" - they had fun. They were intrigued. They liked Dominion very much. They always wanted at least 1 more game. I count these as a success.
I would dump Caravan, Hireling and Upgrade. You're introducing a new game to people, your goal is to introduce them to the basics without giving them too many confusing decisions (like Pawn or even Remodel can) and without adding more subtle mechanics whose benefit might not immediately be apparent (so no Chancellor, no Durations).
To replace them, I would add a gainer (either Workshop or Smugglers), a universal trasher (Salvager works well, and is easier to intuit than Remodel - Upgrade is bad because you have to explain that Upgrading Copper gives you nothing), and a cheap, simple (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) (Cellar is redundant with Warehouse in the kingdom, I would go with either Moat or Pearl Diver or Courtyard).
Man, I've seen lots of people (myself included) being taught more complex games than Dominion - games such as Agricola or Terra Mystica. And, in my experience, new player being confused about clear strategy is a great sign - it's a sign that he has to actively involve and "immerse" himself in the game and start thinking out on his own. In order to figure out what's the best play he has to explore various options and possibilities, which in turn shows him how diverse a game can be.
Really, Upgrade is a card I've never had any trouble explaining. "You'd get a card worth 1$, but since there isn't any - you get nothing" is a basic mathematical concept. I have difficulties understanding who would have troubles with this card.
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This approach always worked. Every single time. Yes, new players didn't play their decks optimally. Yes, they bought wrong cards and played them in less than good way. Yes, they lost games. But, and it's indeed a big "but" - they had fun. They were intrigued.
If you hadn't used the expansions, they would have been based.
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When teaching a first game, I use a tablet randomizer app (Jack of all Dominion. Silly name, great randomizer.) I set up the rules to require at least one +buy, at least one village, at least one terminal draw, at least one trasher, and at least one duration. I blacklist cursers.
Then I swipe away any cards that will either make the game miserable, introduce too many choices, or is game-warpingly good in a way that makes everything else irrelevant. Complex cards with too much text go away, like Count or Native Village. Lots of different mechanics are fine. I may or may not include Events depending on how sharp the players are.
But because I also like to play, I give myself a bit of a challenge. Because I know that new players are always going to buy too many actions, I try to build a kingdom that isn't a particularly good engine, one where BMX could win, then I play an engine anyway just for practice. So I'll swipe away Wharf but keep Dungeon. Swipe away Smithy but keep Courtyard. Swipe away Goons but keep Monument. It also keeps the turns shorter in multi-player.
For a second game, I'll re-randomize with no duplicates (but Duplicates are ok) and I'll leave some of the power cards in, but still get rid of cards that are too complex. I find this approach helps really introduce the game. The rules, the power variance, and the immense variety.
Here's the reality: Non-gamers or occasional gamers are never going to like it, no matter how simple you make it. Trust me, I've tried. Not happening. Casual gamers (even old-school fans of classics like Monopoly and Scrabble) will usually like it, even with a complicated kingdom. Hardcore gamers will be turned off if you oversimplify, so hedge your bets.
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From my experience at teaching Dominion, I don't find this babysitting approach to be optimal. When teaching any new game (no just Dominion) to new players, I want their reaction to be "This is fun" and not "This maybe could be more fun if we were allowed to play with all these cool cards". I want them to see Dominion in all it's variety and be awed by the game. What I don't want is to limit their first and most important Dominion gaming experience to basic cards.
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Really, Upgrade is a card I've never had any trouble explaining. "You'd get a card worth 1$, but since there isn't any - you get nothing" is a basic mathematical concept. I have difficulties understanding who would have troubles with this card.
See, I guess I'm more used to trying to teach Dominion to more casual gamers or even non-gamers whose only reference points are Monopoly and Crazy Eights. Just the whole "play one Action per turn, except if you have a Village" is confusing enough for them.
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I don't mind playing a boring Smithy-BM using the First Game cards. I classify that as time-spent-explaining-the-rules.
5 minutes to arrange the table, 10 minutes to teach the basics, 30 minutes to play the game. You won't find many Euros that can be set up and explained in less than 45 minutes.
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I don't mind playing a boring Smithy-BM using the First Game cards. I classify that as time-spent-explaining-the-rules.
Wait a minute. Do you really play Smithy-BM against newbies just learning the game using the first kingdom? It seems to me that would be teaching them that Dominion is kind of a stupid game where the optimal strategy is to just ignore 90% of the cards on the table and buy money and two Smithies.
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But because I also like to play, I give myself a bit of a challenge. Because I know that new players are always going to buy too many actions, I try to build a kingdom that isn't a particularly good engine, one where BMX could win, then I play an engine anyway just for practice.
If you want to handicap yourself and still have fun, then instead of tailoring the kingdom, try just identifying the key card on the board, then not buying it.
EDIT: Often the key card is the only village.
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I've said this before, but I like to include Oasis to make sure they understand the In-Play area vs. Discard pile distinction, since it gets bought a lot more often then Cellar does.
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I don't mind playing a boring Smithy-BM using the First Game cards. I classify that as time-spent-explaining-the-rules.
Wait a minute. Do you really play Smithy-BM against newbies just learning the game using the first kingdom? It seems to me that would be teaching them that Dominion is kind of a stupid game where the optimal strategy is to just ignore 90% of the cards on the table and buy money and two Smithies.
Yes, I do. I've done it about 5 or 6 times now; it's been a very successful approach and the newbies have always asked for a rematch.
I have a few theories to explain this phenomenon:
- During the first game, their mind is 100% focused on the Supply and their own decks.
- My turns go by faster, making the game less boring for them.
- They have the chance to snap up more engine components and play around with Action chains.
- Smithy-BM puts a limit on the game's duration (in real-time), so it doesn't overstay its welcome.
When playing subsequent matches, the training wheels are off and I do my best to show off whatever fancy engine I can assemble from the randomly-selected Kingdom.
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Yes, I do. I've done it about 5 or 6 times now; it's been a very successful approach and the newbies have always asked for a rematch.
LOL! I can see it now. You play Smithy+BM while all the newbies buy too many actions and not enough treasure. You win handily. They ask for a rematch, and now they play Smithy+BM because they've seen how it works, while you build an optimized engine and destroy them with double-Province buys.
Dominion: Nim Edition.
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Yes, I do. I've done it about 5 or 6 times now; it's been a very successful approach and the newbies have always asked for a rematch.
LOL! I can see it now. You play Smithy+BM while all the newbies buy too many actions and not enough treasure. You win handily. They ask for a rematch, and now they play Smithy+BM because they've seen how it works, while you build an optimized engine and destroy them with double-Province buys.
Dominion: Nim Edition.
That's almost exactly what the "Building the First Game Engine" article suggests.