Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Game Reports => Help! => Topic started by: Haddock on May 04, 2016, 05:32:31 am

Title: Goons, Drunk, on Horseback
Post by: Haddock on May 04, 2016, 05:32:31 am
Not sure whether this should be in Help or just general Game Reports, but since I have some questions for people, I thought I'd put it here.

This was my final League game of this season. 

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/8/8d/Sea_Hag.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Sea Hag) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/c4/Tournament.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Tournament) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/3/35/Stables.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Stables) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/e/e2/Goons.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Goons) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/3/3b/Possession.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Possession)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/6/69/Apothecary.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Apothecary) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/9/9b/University.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/University) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/f7/Wishing_Well.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Wishing Well) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/d/d6/Woodcutter.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Woodcutter) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/3/39/Bridge.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bridge)
Code: [Select]
Apothecary, University, Wishing Well, Woodcutter, Bridge, Sea Hag, Tournament, Stables, Goons, Possession
Log: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160503/log.0.1462308286749.txt

Spoiler: I won, but only just.  I definitely made a ton of mistakes, some of which I outline below, but do go ahead and tell me any that I haven't yet seen.

I feel like my opponent and I got bad luck of different kinds throughout this, who knows if it balanced out.
I opened 5/2, which was my primary piece of bad luck (5/2 seems awful on this board), and it also took me forever to hit 6.  It felt like Apothecary should be better at hitting 6 than it was, is my intuition correct there?  I also had a really crappy discard choice on turn 13.
Meanwhile my opponent's bad luck mostly lay in some really unfortunate Tournament/Province stuff.  Took him forever to get a Prize AND he never (or almost never? not sure) managed to block my few Tournament plays.

Questions:
1) Was I right to get Potion with 5?  Apothecary being there and University being the only splitter, that Potion seems absolutely vital.
2) I pretty much ignored the Tournaments except to contest the pile slightly, thinking I wouldn't be wanting the Province in my deck. It felt wrong doing it, but maybe it's still correct?  Even with some luck I feel like my opponent wouldn't have got much use out of the prizes before the game ended.  Halfheartedly getting one or two Tournaments was probably the worst of both worlds, but that pile had to run out eventually.
3) I feel like Sea Hag was probably a mistake, but I'm not sure.  Maybe that helped slow his Tournaments down enough? 

Related to 3: I definitely got too many terminals, at the very least one of the Bridges should have been a Wishing Well.  (It actually took me just way, way, way too long to notice (derp) the obvious Wishing Well/Apothecary synergy.)  I had planned to get some more Universitys to cover the terminals, but never seemed to get the chance.  Connected:

4) Should I have got a second Potion at some point?  I wanted at least one more Apothecary and a couple more Universitys but it seemed to take forever to get the Potion round.

5) Possession.  Completely ignored, which I think is probably fine in a Goons game, our decks not really being tailored to gain decent cards without playing Goons.  Right?

Title: Re: Goons, Drunk, on Horseback
Post by: assemble_me on May 04, 2016, 06:07:32 am
Seems like a tough board.

Some un-ordered thoughts of mine:
Sea Hag is quite good here without trashing.
I'm not sure about Bridges here: You have Unis for extra gains and you mainly want to play lots of Goons or Sea Hags, also you don't want too many Unis because the draw is tight and Uni doesn't draw. I guess taking too many Bridges is a reason for the opp to go Possession.
Your opponent bought Coppers way too early which is especially bad if you want to connect Tournament+Province
Despite anything else, Prices are still good. Steed is great. Followers would have been still good considering the rate the Curses got lower.
Possession might have still been worth it. I probably would have tried to play more Goons instead, though.
Getting a Tournament just as Peddler is fine here.

I'd be between a Potion/Silver and Sea Hag/Silver opening here, don't know what's better. My gut tells me to go Potion/Silver. That said, I agree with your first three turns and Potion on 5/2 and probably that Silver on turn 4 might be a neccessary evil (really hate that Bridge on turn 5 though. I'd have been between Stables and Uni for 5P; probably you should take a Uni)
Title: Re: Goons, Drunk, on Horseback
Post by: Haddock on May 04, 2016, 06:16:15 am
Quote from: assemble_me on May 04, 2016, 06:07:32 am
Seems like a tough board.

Some un-ordered thoughts of mine:
Sea Hag is quite good here without trashing.
I'm glad it wasn't an outright mistake to get one then. 

Quote from: assemble_me on May 04, 2016, 06:07:32 am
I'm not sure about Bridges here: You have Unis for extra gains and you mainly want to play lots of Goons or Sea Hags, also you don't want too many Unis because the draw is tight and Uni doesn't draw. I guess taking too many Bridges is a reason for the opp to go Possession.
I completely agree with this.  The Bridges were definitely a mistake.

Quote from: assemble_me on May 04, 2016, 06:07:32 am
Your opponent bought Coppers way too early which is especially bad if you want to connect Tournament+Province
I'd forgotten that he was buying Coppers, that actually explains a lot.

Quote from: assemble_me on May 04, 2016, 06:07:32 am
(really hate that Bridge on turn 5 though. I'd have been between Stables and Uni for 5P; probably you should take a Uni)
Agreed.  Why the hell did I do that? :S
Title: Re: Goons, Drunk, on Horseback
Post by: Davio on May 04, 2016, 06:33:41 am
Without trashing, it'll be hard to create a smooth engine here against Sea Hag.
Title: Re: Goons, Drunk, on Horseback
Post by: Haddock on May 04, 2016, 06:39:45 am
Quote from: Davio on May 04, 2016, 06:33:41 am
Without trashing, it'll be hard to create a smooth engine here against Sea Hag.
Interesting.  This is probably true.  My opponent didn't get a Sea Hag but my "engine" was nonetheless pretty stuttery, partly due to various errors in the build. 
I started the game honestly not thinking I'd have trouble building an engine even against Sea Hag - enough Apothecary/Stables nonsense makes for decent draw.  As it was, had I been cursed much it would almost certainly have become a game of "play Goons on as many turns as possible". 
Title: Re: Goons, Drunk, on Horseback
Post by: -Stef- on May 04, 2016, 07:32:58 am
Quote from: Haddock on May 04, 2016, 05:32:31 am
1) Was I right to get Potion with 5?  Apothecary being there and University being the only splitter, that Potion seems absolutely vital.
Yes, I'd certainly get Potion for Apothecary. University is a little bonus.

Quote from: Haddock on May 04, 2016, 05:32:31 am
2) I pretty much ignored the Tournaments except to contest the pile slightly, thinking I wouldn't be wanting the Province in my deck. It felt wrong doing it, but maybe it's still correct?  Even with some luck I feel like my opponent wouldn't have got much use out of the prizes before the game ended.  Halfheartedly getting one or two Tournaments was probably the worst of both worlds, but that pile had to run out eventually.
Peddler for $4 is a very decent card in the deck you should be building here.

Quote from: Haddock on May 04, 2016, 05:32:31 am
3) I feel like Sea Hag was probably a mistake, but I'm not sure.  Maybe that helped slow his Tournaments down enough? 
Sea Hag is not a mistake.

Quote from: Haddock on May 04, 2016, 05:32:31 am
4) Should I have got a second Potion at some point?  I wanted at least one more Apothecary and a couple more Universitys but it seemed to take forever to get the Potion round.
No.

Quote from: Haddock on May 04, 2016, 05:32:31 am
5) Possession.  Completely ignored, which I think is probably fine in a Goons game, our decks not really being tailored to gain decent cards without playing Goons.  Right?
Think I'd ignore it too.


Make the deck go round and round. This set is perfect for it.

1. buy a potion and a Sea Hag.
2. Buy Apothecary when you have the Potion, Stables when you have $5 and Wishing Well if you "miss".
-> This will help you play your Sea Hag a lot. Both Bridge and Silver are terrible if your plan is to make the deck go round.
Buying Silver is actually worse than buying Copper. Early university doesn't really help either, I'd probably get at least 3 apothecaries first.

3. When the curses are gone or near-gone, you can add some tournaments, a Province and win the prizes.
-> Also easy if your deck goes round and round. Prizes are always good cards. Sometimes they're amazing, here they're just good, but they never go below just good.

4. Add one university and some goons, score points.
Title: Re: Goons, Drunk, on Horseback
Post by: Davio on May 04, 2016, 08:06:36 am
Apothecary / Wishing Well is a great utility combo.
Title: Re: Goons, Drunk, on Horseback
Post by: Haddock on May 04, 2016, 08:08:28 am
Quote from: -Stef- on May 04, 2016, 07:32:58 am
Make the deck go round and round. This set is perfect for it.

1. buy a potion and a Sea Hag.
2. Buy Apothecary when you have the Potion, Stables when you have $5 and Wishing Well if you "miss".
-> This will help you play your Sea Hag a lot. Both Bridge and Silver are terrible if your plan is to make the deck go round.
Buying Silver is actually worse than buying Copper. Early university doesn't really help either, I'd probably get at least 3 apothecaries first.

3. When the curses are gone or near-gone, you can add some tournaments, a Province and win the prizes.
-> Also easy if your deck goes round and round. Prizes are always good cards. Sometimes they're amazing, here they're just good, but they never go below just good.

4. Add one university and some goons, score points.
This makes a lot of sense.  I guess I was always going for the heavy cycling engine with Apothecary/Stables (ignore the ridiculous Bridge buys :S), but this is a great breakdown of the best buy order.  I like it.  Thanks :)

Quote from: Davio on May 04, 2016, 08:06:36 am
Apothecary / Wishing Well is a great utility combo.
Don't rub it in :P  I already feel like an idiot for missing it for so long.
Title: Re: Goons, Drunk, on Horseback
Post by: assemble_me on May 04, 2016, 08:15:12 am
Quote from: -Stef- on May 04, 2016, 07:32:58 am
Early university doesn't really help either, I'd probably get at least 3 apothecaries first.
I thought it might be neat to get extra Stables, that's why I'd take one Uni after the first Apoth. But what do I know ;)
Title: Re: Goons, Drunk, on Horseback
Post by: Seprix on May 04, 2016, 08:46:32 am
This is a fascinating board.
Title: Re: Goons, Drunk, on Horseback
Post by: shark_bait on May 05, 2016, 08:41:37 am
This deck can soak up extra coppers well with the Stables/Apothecary action.
Title: Re: Goons, Drunk, on Horseback
Post by: Haddock on May 05, 2016, 08:47:45 am
Quote from: shark_bait on May 05, 2016, 08:41:37 am
This deck can soak up extra coppers well with the Stables/Apothecary action.
I definitely considered that.  If the engine had ended up a bit smoother I might have started throwing some coppers in.  But even then it is still increasing the likelihood of dudding out.