Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Aleimon Thimble on April 15, 2016, 05:21:47 am
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So the Wiki contains a page on the so-called Ambassador and Pirate Ship combo: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Combo:_Ambassador_and_Pirate_Ship . The article explains that Pirate Ship becomes stronger if your opponent has more Coppers to hit, so you should give them Coppers first with Ambassador.
I can't imagine that this ever works out. First of all, the attacks are both terminal, so you risk terminal collission. Second of all, even if you manage to avoid collissions, and you draw Ambassador with 2 Coppers on T3 and Pirate Ship on T4 (the best case scenario), you sacrificed a lot of opportunity cost. You'd rather have a different terminal instead of Pirate Ship, right? Maybe even another Ambassador to get rid of more junk and play the Estate tennis game. Third of all, the fact that you gave your opponent an extra Copper just to take it away again still means the Pirate Ship actually helps them. If it weren't for the Pirate Ship, your opponent would have more junk (Copper) in his deck. So the logic in the article is completely flawed.
The Wiki page links to the original article from Theory, which was posted in 2010, and features a link to an example game. Back then, everybody seemed to think Pirate Ship was good for some reason, so both players opened Pirate Ship. What's more, Theory's opponent back then opened not just Pirate Ship, but Pirate Ship/Estate. I think we can safely say it is not a good example of how to play Dominion.
I think we should delete the Ambassador/Pirate Ship combo page on the Wiki. It's not a combo, it's not even a synergy. It's just a terrible idea, and the existence of the page might confuse new players who want to become better at Dominion.
Any thoughts?
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Not a combo, yeah.
On the other hand on a board with enough villages, and no Action coin, I see how it could work out nicely, since your opponent might carelessly thin down too much (as we do on Ambassador boards), and then lag behind with an economic deficit. Even then, I'd consider Pirate ship, but definitely not in the opening, and depending on what my opponent does, I'd possibly not get it at all.
EDIT: reading the article, it's clear that it's a relic of a time where Pirate Ship was the go-to opening, and Ambassador could be a nice little boost to one's strategy.
Problem is, adding Ambassador to a Pirate Ship deck works much better than adding Pirate Ship to an Ambassador deck. ;D
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When the navy boards Pirate Ship, the Ambassador comes out and claims diplomatic immunity!
Totally a combo! I also support deleting the page
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Was that article written on 1. april?
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It isn't. It's one of the early articles that theory wrote for his blog. I should probably take it off the wiki.
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Perhaps there should be an 'Archived' template and corresponding navigational section where outdated and/or incorrect strategy advice is collected. That way, we can see the history of Dominion strategy and its evolution.
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Perhaps there should be an 'Archived' template and corresponding navigational section where outdated and/or incorrect strategy advice is collected. That way, we can see the history of Dominion strategy and its evolution.
That's an excellent idea. Probably way better than just deleting the article outright.
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This concept might need a whole new thread. Whoever's managing the wiki: You might want to put out a call for some review/feedback of the extremely large and outdated combo list in general. Frankly, there are things in the "neat/useful" thread that are far better than some of the "combos" listed on the wiki.
I've mentioned it in another thread, but Golem/Counting House is perhaps the canonical example of a listed combo that seems amazing when you first look at it, because the interaction between those cards creates a very particular situation which guarantees a single large cash buy. However, I just double-checked a simulator, and it doesn't even beat generic Big Money. Well, that seems like it should be the litmus test for useless. This is a particularly good example, because you cannot add any action cards to the deck at all or your break the combo (unlike Ambassador/Pirate Ship, which someone will find an edge case for involving other cards.) The only buys are Potion (1 is better than 2 according to the simulator) and Silver (without it, you don't hit 5/4P early enough) 1 Counting House and all the Golems you can eat. No matter how you tune the victory buys, it doesn't beat BM.
Yeah, I know: Let the edge cases begin. Or maybe I'm just not using the simulator right. But I still suspect we have a clunker or five on that list.
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I agree Golem/Counting House is bad. I think the combo is meant for Colony games though.
Hey, at least we actually now have good Counting House combo now with Travelling Fair.
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Hey, at least we actually now have good Counting House combo now with Travelling Fair.
I actually saw another one recently: Counting House/Scouting Party. In the particular game we played, a Beggar helped kick things off by gathering more copper and allowing hitting 5 quickly, but another cheap +buy might be just as good. All it takes is two Counting Houses. With a hand full of 12-14 copper, you can purchase only as many Scouting Parties as it takes to ensure that your second Counting House is in your next hand, and that your deck is 5-6 cards. Clean up, play House, repeat. Way faster than Golem, extremely reliable, and kicks off a Province a turn starting around turn 6-7. The trick is that since you're pulling all the copper into your hand BEFORE you have to buy parties, the rest of your deck is, what, 5-10 cards, depending on how green it is? Makes it easy to manipulate, even if you need to trigger a reshuffle to get your Counting house. Just don't stop scouting with a 2-4 card deck!
Oh, man, I just realized that list still has a Counting House/Coppersmith on it from 2010. Yikes. That wiki needs an enema.
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Golem/Counting House kinda works if you also buy 1 Scavenger and an extra Golem. Even then, it's a three card combo that's not even going to be the best thing on the board much of the time.
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i move that we postpone the resolving of this issue and first have a 4 page debate over what the word "combo" means
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I'll second that motion if you can provide a concise, universally acceptable definition of "debate."
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I'll second that motion if you can provide a concise, universally acceptable definition of "debate."
Debate: to speak on a topic at length until one is no longer bated.
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I'll second that motion if you can provide a concise, universally acceptable definition of "debate."
Debate: to speak on a topic at length until one is no longer bated.
How does that interact with someone who extremely good at bating? A master, perhaps?
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Necroing this topic because there hasn't been any update to the wiki regarding these articles. I'm not sure how to archive obsolete articles, but I added disclaimers to the Ambassador/Pirate Ship and Golem/Counting House pages.