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Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Let's Discuss ... => Topic started by: werothegreat on March 12, 2016, 08:58:54 am

Title: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: werothegreat on March 12, 2016, 08:58:54 am
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/8/89/Raid.jpg)

"Qualifications?"
"Stampeding cattle."
"That's not much of a crime."
"Through the Vatican?"
"...kinky. Sign here."

-How good is Raid as an "attack"?
-How good is it as a Silver gainer?
-What cards like Raid, and what cards does Raid like?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Burning Skull on March 12, 2016, 09:38:11 am
Such an agressive Masterpiece!
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: iguanaiguana on March 12, 2016, 09:53:25 am
It says 'silver,' so it's boring. No one will have much to say about this one.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: AdrianHealey on March 12, 2016, 09:57:45 am
Feodum likes it!

Besides that; I don't really get it. When you have 5: aren't there better things to buy (usually)? And if you have 6, you are probably better of with a silver. And paying 5 to have your opponents to draw one less card seems excessive.

So I am not sure what the reasoning is behind this card.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: faust on March 12, 2016, 11:17:09 am
Usually it won't be worth it to buy this in engines just to attack your opponent. -1 card does not justify $5 and a buy. Compare Pillage, which has the same cost (plus an action), and is a much stronger attack.

In fact this is much like Pillage. A one-shot that gains Treasures and does a hand-size attack.

This might be good for TfB if you didn't have to put those Silvers in play. I'd like to gain Silvers just to feed them to Apprentice, but I don't want to be forced to keep them.

The other card that this is much like is of course Masterpiece, and like Masterpiece, it will have a place in BM strategies. $5 for two Silvers can be good there (if you have 2 Silvers in play). 3 Silvers are usually better than Gold in BM. I'm not convinced I woud take 4 Silvers over a Province. I think it will overall be weaker than Masterpiece for that because Masterpiece scales more than twice as well.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: jomini on March 12, 2016, 11:34:22 am
-1 Card is pretty nice as attacks go. If they are not drawing, it is a Minion a turn delayed. This is really handy on a money board as it drastically reduces the odds of double Gold or Gold/ Silver x; many copper based $8s just die. Likewise money boards have few competitive cards after you have a few terminal $5, so you may as well buy Raid instead of yet another Silver; the -1 card making it superior to Duchy for a decent while whenever you gain one or two Silvers off it.


If they are drawing, it can appreciably lower the odds of kicking off an engine, particularly ones like Village/Oracle where the village draw is needed to have good odds of hitting an Oracle. It is about the only "discard" that actually makes a dent in Minion setups (much harder to chain if you need .33 Minions/non-draw card than .25). With zero Silver gain, it still be worth it (e.g. as a last ditch, stop their Minion engine for a turn so I can double province again next turn)

This attack also means that it allows you to go money against a number of marginal engines that Masterpiece might struggle against. But even in engines Raid can be good. If you have the draw it is one of the faster scaling means of building value. Each turn you can literally double your buying power so $6 -> $12 is a single buy, better than Plat for cost efficiency. Now for some setups, draw is no object (e.g. Chouse/Cellar engines with top deck control, some Madman decks) so you can do some crazy things - like Raid/Mission/Raid and then having $40 to play. But a number of engines can manage a lot of draw with a Silver flood.

One I like is Storyteller. If you can consistently play 3 Silvers with Storyteller, then she gives you +7 cards at the cost of 4. This is Hgrounds/Village or 3 Labs territory. Normally, it takes a lot to add another high silver Steller to your deck ($14 if you want to buy everything) ... but Raid is great here, you pay $10 to setup a second Steller (and gain the attack) or $15 for two. Even your whiffed turns are province buys (Steller being, at worst, cantrip). Raid/Steller is one of the few times where massing the latter can actually be viable (all you really need are +buy and trashing).


Outside of gaining large numbers of Silvers for coin, just using Raid as value gain or card count gain can work. Getting two or three Silvers each turn to feed your Upgrades is decently buy/cost efficient. Feeding two Silvers each turn to a Merc is also not a bad go for netting $1 and leaving them with 3 cards -1 draw. Very few things in Dominion have the ability to gain the number of cards that Raid can and very few things can gain close to the total value (e.g. gain 3S, Forge to Plat each turn).
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: JThorne on March 12, 2016, 02:30:39 pm
Heads up, newer players: This event is better than it looks. It's like Ironmonger. At first, you look at it and say "meh." Then you buy it a few times and suddenly you're winning out of nowhere.

Sure, I've played the insane Raid/Feodum rush against players who didn't believe in it and absolutely crushed Province players. But what really surprised me was the time Smithy-BM beat out a mediocre engine in a Colony game. Yes, Colonies! With just a couple of draw-3s and no treasure better than Silver. I couldn't believe it, either. But the engine player didn't want to buy Raid constantly and clog their deck with silver, so I never had to play 4-card hands. And I doubled a LOT of silver.

A couple of things about playing Raid/TD/BM: You might eventually need three or even four terminal draw cards. Raid decks can get enormous. But that also makes them resistant to greening. I don't know what the optimal tipping point is to go from gaining gobs of silver to greening; I'm sure it depends on the kingdom. And sometimes it won't be a good ideal to play this at all, but it's definitely a thing.

Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: transportowiec96 on March 13, 2016, 04:27:54 am
-card token doesn't hurt that much. Unless you're going to buy Raid every turn, in which it's just an "urchin" that gain you silvers.
As silver gainer, it works quite nice, at beginning it usually gains a silver or two but when you have more silvers, it's just terryfying for your opponents to see how many silvers you have.
Feodum is great with this, although as already pointed out, masterpiece is better later in the game.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Kirian on March 13, 2016, 04:50:11 am
Who wants to be my off-tank?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 13, 2016, 06:19:01 am
I honestly think this is good in BM or feodum games, and well today aren't terribly common.

This and quest are the least interesting events. But, hey, at least at get another feodum enabler.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Chris is me on March 13, 2016, 09:19:52 am
The quality of a money deck is underrated these days. Money decks, like engine decks, are a lot better when you can buy more than one "component" per turn, and Raid lets you buy lots of components while also hitting opponents with a solid attack. While it's not the best event ever, its presence tips weak to moderate engine boards in favor of a strategy closer to terminal draw BM. Obviously you're not buying Raid on a board that hands you all the engine components you need, but I suspect Raid will be under-bought for awhile online while people learn about the usefulness of a deck filled with Silver and a frequent attack.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Davio on March 13, 2016, 10:52:40 am
This event attacks everyone, even the one who buys it.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: terminalCopper on March 13, 2016, 02:28:42 pm
Quote from: transportowiec96 on March 13, 2016, 04:27:54 am
-card token doesn't hurt that much. Unless you're going to buy Raid every turn, in which it's just an "urchin" that gain you silvers.
No. Urchin makes you discard your worst card, the card token makes you miss a random card.
I think the difference between the worst and a random card is huge.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: GendoIkari on March 13, 2016, 03:40:48 pm
Quote from: terminalCopper on March 13, 2016, 02:28:42 pm
Quote from: transportowiec96 on March 13, 2016, 04:27:54 am
-card token doesn't hurt that much. Unless you're going to buy Raid every turn, in which it's just an "urchin" that gain you silvers.
No. Urchin makes you discard your worst card, the card token makes you miss a random card.
I think the difference between the worst and a random card is huge.

Absolutely. Taking the -1 card token is basically the same as getting Minion'd but generally worse because you don't get the free cycling.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: singletee on March 13, 2016, 03:58:47 pm
Quote from: GendoIkari on March 13, 2016, 03:40:48 pm
Quote from: terminalCopper on March 13, 2016, 02:28:42 pm
Quote from: transportowiec96 on March 13, 2016, 04:27:54 am
-card token doesn't hurt that much. Unless you're going to buy Raid every turn, in which it's just an "urchin" that gain you silvers.
No. Urchin makes you discard your worst card, the card token makes you miss a random card.
I think the difference between the worst and a random card is huge.

Absolutely. Taking the -1 card token is basically the same as getting Minion'd but generally worse because you don't get the free cycling.

It's worse on average but also less swingy. Minion can make you miss your best card repeatedly or it can save you from junk hands repeatedly.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: ehunt on May 17, 2016, 06:12:38 am
1) repeated raiding gives you a silver-flood deck, much like masterpiece or psychotrader

2) such decks are normally pretty good, rarely able to beat good engines but usually beating mediocre engines or more standard money/draw strategies.

3) however, such decks are extremely susceptible to handsize attacks

4) every board with raid contains a handsize attack; namely, raid.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: LastFootnote on May 18, 2016, 03:13:47 pm
Quote from: ehunt on May 17, 2016, 06:12:38 am
1) repeated raiding gives you a silver-flood deck, much like masterpiece or psychotrader

2) such decks are normally pretty good, rarely able to beat good engines but usually beating mediocre engines or more standard money/draw strategies.

3) however, such decks are extremely susceptible to handsize attacks

4) every board with raid contains a handsize attack; namely, raid.

This is true, but your engine-building opponent is basically never going to buy Raid. And in a Raid mirror, nobody buys Raid after the Silver pile runs out.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Seprix on May 22, 2016, 08:49:10 pm
This is probably the worst Event. It's the only Event I've never bought so far.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: LastFootnote on May 22, 2016, 08:51:15 pm
Quote from: Seprix on May 22, 2016, 08:49:10 pm
This is probably the worst Event. It's the only Event I've never bought so far.

Well then I guess you're an expert. :P
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Beyond Awesome on May 22, 2016, 09:04:54 pm
Every time I bought it, I ended up regretting it.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Chris is me on May 22, 2016, 09:08:17 pm
Quote from: Seprix on May 22, 2016, 08:49:10 pm
This is probably the worst Event. It's the only Event I've never bought so far.

This is such shitty logic. You can't actually know how an Event works without ever having played with it, even in a throwaway game against bots.

That said Raid isn't that great.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Seprix on May 22, 2016, 09:35:27 pm
Quote from: Chris is me on May 22, 2016, 09:08:17 pm
Quote from: Seprix on May 22, 2016, 08:49:10 pm
This is probably the worst Event. It's the only Event I've never bought so far.

This is such shitty logic. You can't actually know how an Event works without ever having played with it, even in a throwaway game against bots.

That said Raid isn't that great.

It's perfectly fine logic, because I know what the card does. There isn't much of a deeper meta behind this event, like with say, Rebuild. You even agree with me on how good it really is. Silver flooding is generally bad and the attack is not worth paying $5 for every time.

Quote from: LastFootnote on May 22, 2016, 08:51:15 pm
Quote from: Seprix on May 22, 2016, 08:49:10 pm
This is probably the worst Event. It's the only Event I've never bought so far.

Well then I guess you're an expert. :P

Is there a worse Event so far? I'm open to be persuaded otherwise.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on May 22, 2016, 09:54:16 pm
Scouting Party is worse.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Seprix on May 22, 2016, 10:07:43 pm
Quote from: Roadrunner7671 on May 22, 2016, 09:54:16 pm
Scouting Party is worse.

It's not worse. I've played with it. It's good in the right circumstances.

Aren't you the Scout fanatic anyways?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Jimmmmm on May 22, 2016, 10:17:12 pm
Quote from: Chris is me on May 22, 2016, 09:08:17 pm
Quote from: Seprix on May 22, 2016, 08:49:10 pm
This is probably the worst Event. It's the only Event I've never bought so far.

This is such shitty logic. You can't actually know how an Event works without ever having played with it, even in a throwaway game against bots.

That said Raid isn't that great.

It's perfectly fine logic because he said it is "probably" the worst Event ie he's guessing it's the worst event, something you can definitely do without playing with it.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Beyond Awesome on May 22, 2016, 10:56:03 pm
I will go so far as to say without Feodum on the board, this is overall the weakest event.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on May 22, 2016, 11:21:01 pm
Quote from: Seprix on May 22, 2016, 10:07:43 pm
Quote from: Roadrunner7671 on May 22, 2016, 09:54:16 pm
Scouting Party is worse.

It's not worse. I've played with it. It's good in the right circumstances.

Aren't you the Scout fanatic anyways?
I've played with it to.

Copper is good in the right circumstances. So is Curse or any of the Ruins.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: pacovf on May 23, 2016, 12:29:05 am
I've never ever managed to make a silver flood strategy work. That would be an interesting topic for an article. *hint hint*
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: 2.71828..... on May 23, 2016, 01:00:15 am
Quote from: pacovf on May 23, 2016, 12:29:05 am
I've never ever managed to make a silver flood strategy work. That would be an interesting topic for an article. *hint hint*

I was able to successfully pull off a silver flood strategy with raid earlier today against Stef.  I will try to remember to pull up the log tomorrow when it comes online.

preview: basically, you need nothing else to be going on with that board
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: drsteelhammer on May 23, 2016, 02:21:54 am
Is it really worse than Quest? I'm not so sure. This one definitely has some uses, and the attack on top is pretty neat if you want the silvers.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Beyond Awesome on May 23, 2016, 02:26:54 am
Quest is semi-useful for those games where a junker collides.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Limetime on May 23, 2016, 10:14:48 am
Pro tip: Don't buy this if you have silvers in your hand.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Seprix on May 23, 2016, 10:21:15 am
Quote from: Limetime on May 23, 2016, 10:14:48 am
Pro tip: Don't buy this

FTFY
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: 2.71828..... on May 23, 2016, 11:53:43 am
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/0/05/Smugglers.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Smugglers) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/c2/Watchtower.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Watchtower) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/4/42/Pirate_Ship.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Pirate Ship) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/1/12/Trader.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Trader) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/9/9e/Young_Witch.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Young Witch) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/7/77/Bridge_Troll.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bridge Troll) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/20/Horn_of_Plenty.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Horn of Plenty) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/d/d7/Forge.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Forge)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/3/36/Quest.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Quest) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/8/89/Raid.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Raid) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/fa/Caravan_Guard.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Caravan Guard) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/b/b2/Doctor.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Doctor) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/8/8d/Scheme.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Scheme)
Code: [Select]
Quest, Raid, Caravan Guard, Doctor, Scheme, Smugglers, Watchtower, Pirate Ship, Trader, Young Witch, Bridge Troll, Horn of Plenty, Forge
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160522/log.0.1463952192116.txt


So yeah. This is the game I was talking about. No engines. A couple distracting cards.

What sold me on the strategy was 1)young witch is great to cycle to have those 4 silvers in your hand. Doctor thins or quickly, allowing your deck to be almost all silver.

Yeah, the bridge troll attack affected me a few times, and maybe stef could have built a little better off a deck to play his attacks more frequently, but I had 9 silvers and my first province by turn 9, and was able to keep greening consistently.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Seprix on May 23, 2016, 11:54:43 am
Nice game. Did you run into Stef or was that a league match?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: 2.71828..... on May 23, 2016, 12:21:31 pm
Quote from: Seprix on May 23, 2016, 11:54:43 am
Nice game. Did you run into Stef or was that a league match?

Auto match does work occasionally
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: singletee on May 23, 2016, 12:29:06 pm
Quote from: 2.71828..... on May 23, 2016, 11:53:43 am
What sold me on the strategy was 1)young witch is great to cycle to have those 4 silvers in your hand.

Isn't Watchtower better for this? It still draws 2 (more if you get hit with Raid), and you don't have to discard.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: trivialknot on May 23, 2016, 03:52:08 pm
Silver floods are good at countering junk.  So, if you're playing with junkers without trashers.  Or if you're going for alt-vp, or duchies.  Storyteller and Feodum are special cases because those are just two cards after all.

As far as silver gainers go, Raid feels weak to me.  Early on, it just doesn't get you many silvers.  Later on, it feels like duchy > raid, because aren't you supposed to green early in a silver flood strategy?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Raid
Post by: Limetime on May 23, 2016, 09:41:57 pm
Cards that let's you draw more silvers into your hand synergies with this. It also slows other players down which is pretty good. Yet another way to add payload quickly to your deck after building your draw deck engine.