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Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Let's Discuss ... => Topic started by: werothegreat on March 03, 2016, 08:33:03 am

Title: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: werothegreat on March 03, 2016, 08:33:03 am
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f6/Miser.jpg/374px-Miser.jpg)

BAH HUMBUG

It's auto-Pirate Ship!
-Is Miser too slow?
-What cards like Miser?  What cards help Miser?
-How many Misers do you want?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: Chris is me on March 03, 2016, 09:20:49 am
Miser is too slow. It's a slower payoff than either Mine or Moneylender, which is saying a lot, but obviously it is more useful than either of them later on.

The biggest problem is that for the first half of the game it is basically a terminal action that says "Trash a Copper". Garbage, right? And when it can eventually get a payload of +$5 or more, if given the choice I'd rather trash Copper faster with something else and just buy a few good payload cards.

If you have a slow game, with engine potential and +Buy, sure... But those are basically contradictory premises. Colony games I guess.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: transportowiec96 on March 03, 2016, 10:03:31 am
Miser is good for slog games and games where you want to keep hitting a certain amount of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) like Duchy/Duke games. (There are still better cards for hitting (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) though.) If you can get +action token for him, well, here you can easily get a lot of money by playing one card.

Miser likes Copper-giving junking attacks. They just make you have a better chance of coliding Miser with Copper. If you can trash down to 1-Miser-Deck, then you're surely netting a province each turn if you have 8 coppers on tavern. You can boost province buys by use of cantrip +buys and teachers/lost arts +action token on miser.

I prefer having two misers. The more misers you have, the faster you can put your coppers onto tavern, but getting too much of them will soon make you a hand of misers(+estates) without coppers.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: Garth One-eye on March 03, 2016, 10:10:12 am
I had a game recently where Miser was useful.
Scrying Pool, Oasis, Squire, Market, no trashing except for Miser.
I got down to a deck playing multiple $7 Misers consistently.

Granted, my opponent both ignored Scrying Pool and opened Miser, so I knew I had a lot of time.
So, it's possible Miser wasn't the best choice, but I think it was the funnest choice.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: mameluke on March 03, 2016, 10:46:23 am
I'm not sure how to make this less slow. Give it +1 action? Would that make it too good? Cost $3? Give it +$1, even if you put a Copper on your mat?
I guess the problem is that it it's like Pirate Ship, and Pirate Ship is also slow.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: Chris is me on March 03, 2016, 11:04:41 am
Quote from: mameluke on March 03, 2016, 10:46:23 am
I'm not sure how to make this less slow. Give it +1 action? Would that make it too good? Cost $3? Give it +$1, even if you put a Copper on your mat?
I guess the problem is that it it's like Pirate Ship, and Pirate Ship is also slow.

I'd have to give it more thought than this, but what if it just gave you the money bonus AND let you put a Copper aside? It would clearly be very powerful sometimes, but it would still take a few shuffles to be more than a terminal Silver or Gold. Maybe the cost would need to be bumped up, or maybe you would have to get the coin before you put a new Copper on the mat, or maybe this would just be too crazy.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: Deadlock39 on March 03, 2016, 11:09:57 am
Seems like it might work giving both bonuses, but in the games where it was good, it would definitely be crazy. If it gave the coins before moving the Copper, it would be the 4th play before it was equal to a Moneylender.  If there was a decent engine to build it would probably get extremely strong very fast.

Part of what makes it different from a card like Moneylender is that you are sacrificing utility during the early game for a larger payload at the end. Taking away or minimizing that weakness would change the card significantly.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: werothegreat on March 03, 2016, 11:18:59 am
Quote from: Chris is me on March 03, 2016, 11:04:41 am
Quote from: mameluke on March 03, 2016, 10:46:23 am
I'm not sure how to make this less slow. Give it +1 action? Would that make it too good? Cost $3? Give it +$1, even if you put a Copper on your mat?
I guess the problem is that it it's like Pirate Ship, and Pirate Ship is also slow.

I'd have to give it more thought than this, but what if it just gave you the money bonus AND let you put a Copper aside? It would clearly be very powerful sometimes, but it would still take a few shuffles to be more than a terminal Silver or Gold. Maybe the cost would need to be bumped up, or maybe you would have to get the coin before you put a new Copper on the mat, or maybe this would just be too crazy.

Something like "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) per Copper on your Tavern mat.  You may put a Copper from your hand on your Tavern mat."
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: Mavy2k on March 03, 2016, 12:57:15 pm
It feels like the card only exists to compete with Scout for the worst 4$ card.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on March 03, 2016, 01:18:32 pm
Miser is actually really underrated imo. It's a lot stronger than Pirate Ship because you help yourself thin instead of doing a weak attack on your opponent. The thinning, of course, is pretty weak in and of itself, but you generally want it in decks where Copper trashing is limited, but you still have a good use for a lot of terminal $ (and of course no overpowered quick megaturns or rushes).

It's really good if you get to play it often. Some of the good enablers include Throne Room variants, Prince, and sifters like Warehouse. Prince of Misers is absolutely insane - try it if you haven't.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: Davio on March 03, 2016, 02:19:42 pm
But Prince is expensive and Miser is slow, so it can take a lot of time for that combo to come together and start paying off.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: markusin on March 03, 2016, 02:20:38 pm
Quote from: Mavy2k on March 03, 2016, 12:57:15 pm
It feels like the card only exists to compete with Scout for the worst 4$ card.
I feel like Miser is a closer in strength to Trade Route. Sometimes even the slightest trashing helps in the long run, say for a Herald engine. Trade Route does cost $3 and has +buy though.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: gamesou on March 03, 2016, 02:24:14 pm
If for some reason you can open Miser/Miser this becomes an option to consider. I had a board with Alms/Miser/Crossroads and the Miser deck was really very fast.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: Jack Rudd on March 03, 2016, 03:18:13 pm
Quote from: markusin on March 03, 2016, 02:20:38 pm
Quote from: Mavy2k on March 03, 2016, 12:57:15 pm
It feels like the card only exists to compete with Scout for the worst 4$ card.
I feel like Miser is a closer in strength to Trade Route. Sometimes even the slightest trashing helps in the long run, say for a Herald engine. Trade Route does cost $3 and has +buy though.
Ah yes, Herald. Herald really likes this card, because it is a pseudotrasher that has no negative consequences if your Herald hits it.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: jomini on March 04, 2016, 05:32:02 pm
Miser loves boards with nice sifting, and strong engine support. There is a massive premium for increasing the rate at which you can hit Miser. University, Ironworks, Workshop, etc. can all allow you to build an engine without needing as much early cash so Miser can thin out ever quicker. Cards like Warehouse and Scheme are also very useful for getting you to high value Misers quickly. Events, like Mission or Expedition all can make Miser help you thin out that much faster.

And of course Miser shines insanely well with limited draw Engines - Wt, Lib, Menage, maybe even Jack all make for strong Miser play by allowing you to draw back the lost buying power and having disappearing cash is clutch on those boards. For similar reasons, I like Miser on Tactician boards.

Ultimately, Miser is like Trade route - a very slow trasher you power up - but one that your opponents cannot draft off. Not a crazy powerful thing, but decent on most any engine board that lacks other trashing.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: Ankenaut on March 04, 2016, 11:57:16 pm
What cards help Miser? Seaway and Lost Arts
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: GendoIkari on March 04, 2016, 11:59:22 pm
I had trouble making decisions on what to do when playing Miser... do I want (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) right now, or do I want to make the rest of my Miser plays worth (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png)?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: werothegreat on March 05, 2016, 12:44:38 am
Quote from: GendoIkari on March 04, 2016, 11:59:22 pm
I had trouble making decisions on what to do when playing Miser... do I want (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) right now, or do I want to make the rest of my Miser plays worth (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png)?

This is why it works nicely with Throne Room variants, particularly Royal Carriage.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: eHalcyon on March 05, 2016, 01:05:41 am
Quote from: werothegreat on March 05, 2016, 12:44:38 am
Quote from: GendoIkari on March 04, 2016, 11:59:22 pm
I had trouble making decisions on what to do when playing Miser... do I want (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) right now, or do I want to make the rest of my Miser plays worth (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png)?

This is why it works nicely with Throne Room variants, particularly Royal Carriage.

So you can choose between $10 now, $6 now and every Miser in the future, or $7 on every Miser in the future?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: J Reggie on April 04, 2016, 04:17:10 pm
After playing with this card more and seeing people play with it online, I have more opinions about it. I think it's very underrated, and you want two of them early. It makes up for the loss of early economy with its massive payload later. It's especially good when there are cheaper engine components you can be buying or gaining while you're thinning. Also, you almost always want to put a copper on the mat is you can; having that copper there and getting a $3 card just seems way better than getting a $5 card.

Some things to look for with Miser are cheap non-terminals, especially villages and +buy, and ways to gain lots of cheap engine components, like Alms or Ironworks. It's also a good target for the +buy and +action tokens. I'm excited to see more of this card as Adventures comes online; I really think the public opinion of it will rise.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: GendoIkari on April 04, 2016, 04:23:13 pm
Quote from: eHalcyon on March 05, 2016, 01:05:41 am
Quote from: werothegreat on March 05, 2016, 12:44:38 am
Quote from: GendoIkari on March 04, 2016, 11:59:22 pm
I had trouble making decisions on what to do when playing Miser... do I want (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) right now, or do I want to make the rest of my Miser plays worth (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png)?

This is why it works nicely with Throne Room variants, particularly Royal Carriage.

So you can choose between $10 now, $6 now and every Miser in the future, or $7 on every Miser in the future?

You missed an option, you can also choose $5 now and $6 on all future Misers. Which could be the right move, thanks to Storyteller.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: Doom_Shark on April 04, 2016, 11:25:07 pm
I agree that TR variants make this card very good.I still like opening miser copper, then getting a second miser. (Or if alms is out, then get two misers right away and buying the one copper later.) Then find an excuse to chain the misers, puttung yourself at a province per play. And I woll also say that these guys love mountebank, especially when the curses run out.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on April 05, 2016, 03:11:38 am
Quote from: Doom_Shark on April 04, 2016, 11:25:07 pm
I agree that TR variants make this card very good.I still like opening miser copper, then getting a second miser. (Or if alms is out, then get two misers right away and buying the one copper later.) Then find an excuse to chain the misers, puttung yourself at a province per play. And I woll also say that these guys love mountebank, especially when the curses run out.

I don't think opening Miser/Copper is any good. Miser is slow enough already, adding another Copper will make it even slower.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: Seprix on April 05, 2016, 10:37:21 am
I'd think it's better to open Miser/Village, buy Miser T3/4 if possible, and then just thin out asap.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: GendoIkari on April 05, 2016, 11:38:14 am
Quote from: Doom_Shark on April 04, 2016, 11:25:07 pm
I agree that TR variants make this card very good.I still like opening miser copper, then getting a second miser. (Or if alms is out, then get two misers right away and buying the one copper later.) Then find an excuse to chain the misers, puttung yourself at a province per play. And I woll also say that these guys love mountebank, especially when the curses run out.

Yeah this doesn't sound right... Miser is good when it can get rid of your copper... you don't need to make it worth $8, and even if you did want that, you would want to get that last copper way later, when you've cleared out your starting 7 and can draw your deck.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: Chris is me on April 05, 2016, 12:09:31 pm
Quote from: GendoIkari on April 05, 2016, 11:38:14 am
Quote from: Doom_Shark on April 04, 2016, 11:25:07 pm
I agree that TR variants make this card very good.I still like opening miser copper, then getting a second miser. (Or if alms is out, then get two misers right away and buying the one copper later.) Then find an excuse to chain the misers, puttung yourself at a province per play. And I woll also say that these guys love mountebank, especially when the curses run out.

Yeah this doesn't sound right... Miser is good when it can get rid of your copper... you don't need to make it worth $8, and even if you did want that, you would want to get that last copper way later, when you've cleared out your starting 7 and can draw your deck.

Even so, taking four complete shuffles where you basically can't buy anything costing more than $2 just to thin your deck and to make a cool action that gives you a bunch of money, that's not always the right move! Miser is the new Pirate Ship in more ways than one TBH
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: GendoIkari on April 05, 2016, 12:44:25 pm
Quote from: Chris is me on April 05, 2016, 12:09:31 pm
Quote from: GendoIkari on April 05, 2016, 11:38:14 am
Quote from: Doom_Shark on April 04, 2016, 11:25:07 pm
I agree that TR variants make this card very good.I still like opening miser copper, then getting a second miser. (Or if alms is out, then get two misers right away and buying the one copper later.) Then find an excuse to chain the misers, puttung yourself at a province per play. And I woll also say that these guys love mountebank, especially when the curses run out.

Yeah this doesn't sound right... Miser is good when it can get rid of your copper... you don't need to make it worth $8, and even if you did want that, you would want to get that last copper way later, when you've cleared out your starting 7 and can draw your deck.

Even so, taking four complete shuffles where you basically can't buy anything costing more than $2 just to thin your deck and to make a cool action that gives you a bunch of money, that's not always the right move! Miser is the new Pirate Ship in more ways than one TBH

Yeah definitely. Miser sounds like it should be part of the payload of an engine; not at all just something where you hope to do nothing buy buy Misers and win.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: werothegreat on April 05, 2016, 05:47:54 pm
Optimally, Miser is your only source of Copper "trashing", and there's enough engine support on the board for you to take a few turns just hiding Coppers away on your mat.  Then you hopefully have a couple multi-Province turns.  So, in order for Miser to be at its best, you need a) minimal to no Copper getting-rid-of b) drawing engine support c) +Buy.  I think this works well against discard Attacks, and certainly against Copper-junking Attacks.  Against a Militia, rather than being sad about your smaller hand, you just spend the turn making your Misers bigger.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: J Reggie on April 05, 2016, 05:58:19 pm
I also think Miser goes especially well with Page.  Page is a cheap way to get economy and actions, and appreciates the thinning.  Then, once you get your Champion, you'll be able to play the Misers for money with impunity.  Also since the first two stages of Page are non-terminal, you don't have to worry as much about them colliding early on. 
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: Doom_Shark on April 05, 2016, 08:26:00 pm
Quote from: GendoIkari on April 05, 2016, 11:38:14 am
Quote from: Doom_Shark on April 04, 2016, 11:25:07 pm
I agree that TR variants make this card very good.I still like opening miser copper, then getting a second miser. (Or if alms is out, then get two misers right away and buying the one copper later.) Then find an excuse to chain the misers, puttung yourself at a province per play. And I woll also say that these guys love mountebank, especially when the curses run out.

Yeah this doesn't sound right... Miser is good when it can get rid of your copper... you don't need to make it worth $8, and even if you did want that, you would want to get that last copper way later, when you've cleared out your starting 7 and can draw your deck.

Well, I don't profess to be an expert, but I have won with this before. So either I'm right; or you guys are right and my family just sucks at Dominion.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Miser
Post by: LastFootnote on April 05, 2016, 08:30:34 pm
Quote from: Doom_Shark on April 05, 2016, 08:26:00 pm
Quote from: GendoIkari on April 05, 2016, 11:38:14 am
Quote from: Doom_Shark on April 04, 2016, 11:25:07 pm
I agree that TR variants make this card very good.I still like opening miser copper, then getting a second miser. (Or if alms is out, then get two misers right away and buying the one copper later.) Then find an excuse to chain the misers, puttung yourself at a province per play. And I woll also say that these guys love mountebank, especially when the curses run out.

Yeah this doesn't sound right... Miser is good when it can get rid of your copper... you don't need to make it worth $8, and even if you did want that, you would want to get that last copper way later, when you've cleared out your starting 7 and can draw your deck.

Well, I don't profess to be an expert, but I have won with this before. So either I'm right; or you guys are right and my family just sucks at Dominion.

I think getting to $8 Misers is definitely significant if you have no other source of $, for whatever reason. Each Miser getting you a Province can be meaningful. Although I'm guessing a lot of the time it's not worth getting and setting aside that extra Copper. Time will tell!