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Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Let's Discuss ... => Topic started by: werothegreat on March 02, 2016, 08:25:41 am

Title: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: werothegreat on March 02, 2016, 08:25:41 am: (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3c/Messenger.jpg/375px-Messenger.jpg)

YOU GET A CURSE
AND YOU GET A CURSE
AND EVERY- wait, I get a Curse, too :(

It's jsh's favorite card!
-How often do you buy this in a game?
-What are the best cards to gift to everyone?
-How useful is the on-play ability?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: shark_bait on March 02, 2016, 09:21:54 am: Quote from: werothegreat on March 02, 2016, 08:25:41 am
YOU GET A CURSE
AND YOU GET A CURSE
AND EVERY- wait, I get a Curse, too :(

This is for you liopoil.... but no Curse with a Watchtower in hand. :)
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Limetime on March 02, 2016, 09:23:06 am: Quote from: shark_bait on March 02, 2016, 09:21:54 am
Quote from: werothegreat on March 02, 2016, 08:25:41 am
YOU GET A CURSE
AND YOU GET A CURSE
AND EVERY- wait, I get a Curse, too :(

This is for you liopoil.... but no Curse with a Watchtower in hand. :)
You still get a curse it just goes in the trash.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on March 02, 2016, 09:36:42 am: Quote from: Limetime on March 02, 2016, 09:23:06 am
Quote from: shark_bait on March 02, 2016, 09:21:54 am
Quote from: werothegreat on March 02, 2016, 08:25:41 am
YOU GET A CURSE
AND YOU GET A CURSE
AND EVERY- wait, I get a Curse, too :(

This is for you liopoil.... but no Curse with a Watchtower in hand. :)
You still get a curse it just goes on top of your deck.
FTFY
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Limetime on March 02, 2016, 09:45:25 am: Quote from: werothegreat on March 02, 2016, 08:25:41 am

YOU GET A SCOUT
AND YOU GET A SCOUT
AND EVERY- wait, I get a SCOUT, too :(
FTFY
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Chris is me on March 02, 2016, 10:24:22 am: Every time I try to use this card I just end up helping my opponents more than me because we all get a good card but I'm also stuck with a Chancellor.

I like it in friendly games with friends who are bad at dominion because I can gift them the cards they need to improve their deck :)

In a four player game if Messenger is on the table you can pile out very fast. Combine it with Stonemason and the game is over in like 8 turns lol
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: GendoIkari on March 02, 2016, 10:43:57 am: Messenger can be insane with City, or really it's City that can be insane with Messenger. Especially if playing more than 2 players. Buy Messenger to pass Messengers; drain pile quickly.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: GendoIkari on March 02, 2016, 10:45:37 am: Another interesting interaction... I opened Messenger last time I played, mostly because there wasn't much else in way of options. I didn't really know what to give; didn't care to give anything... so I gave Silver. Seemed like the safe choice. Then the next player proceeded to lay down $5 and buy Mint. I told her "you realize that you now only have $2 in your deck ri... oh, crap."
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Mavy2k on March 02, 2016, 10:50:08 am: The best use I can think of is gifting your opponent a potion, when he has already gotten one and you do not.
But you won´t be very happy with the card in your deck either, unless there is no other card with +buy.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Jack Rudd on March 02, 2016, 11:25:46 am: Jack Rudd plays Village
...drawing a card and getting +2 Actions
Jack Rudd plays Highway
...drawing a card and getting +1 Action
Jack Rudd plays Black Market
...gaining +2 coins and revealing Fool's Gold, Treasure Map and Messenger
...playing 1 Copper and buying a Messenger
...gaining Lost City
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Limetime on March 02, 2016, 11:36:36 am: I feel like messenger has the same problem that embargo has. You have to make it benefit you more than your opponent.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Awaclus on March 02, 2016, 11:40:08 am: Quote from: Limetime on March 02, 2016, 11:36:36 am
I feel like messenger has the same problem that embargo has. You have to make it benefit you more than your opponent.

But if you can do it, it's not a problem.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: markusin on March 02, 2016, 11:48:42 am: Quote from: Mavy2k on March 02, 2016, 10:50:08 am
The best use I can think of is gifting your opponent a potion, when he has already gotten one and you do not.
But you won´t be very happy with the card in your deck either, unless there is no other card with +buy.

I feel like I'd actually want a Chancellor with +buy when I'm trying to stockpile Potion cards, at least early on.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: J Reggie on March 02, 2016, 12:57:25 pm: Most of what I've seen people say about this card is it's useful in mirrors to give your opponent a copy of a card they only need one of (such as Potion or Chapel). I feel like it's much more useful in non-mirrors, giving your opponent a card they clearly don't need, like a village when they're playing a slog or a silver when they're trying to get super thin. It won't usually actively hurt their deck, but the second card helps you much more than it does them, especially if you already needed Messenger in your deck. Simply, I think Messenger will be most useful when it helps you and doesn't particularly help your opponent, more so than trying to hurt your opponent.

One thing to note is this is one of the Adventures cards I've played with the least, so most of this is assumption. I'm now putting this on my list of cards to try to include next Friday night (Dominion night yay!)
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: eHalcyon on March 02, 2016, 01:03:42 pm: Quote from: Awaclus on March 02, 2016, 11:40:08 am
Quote from: Limetime on March 02, 2016, 11:36:36 am
I feel like messenger has the same problem that embargo has. You have to make it benefit you more than your opponent.

But if you can do it, it's not a problem.

Right. On both Embargo and Messenger this is a feature, not a bug.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: LastFootnote on March 02, 2016, 01:09:46 pm: As the Secret History of Adventures states, this started out as…

Quote
Messenger: Action, $4
+1 Buy
+$2
When you buy this, gain a card costing up to $4, and each other player gains a copy of it.

I suggested adding the Chancellor bit, but while the Secret History says I suggested it to make the top less boring, I actually suggested it to make the top less weak. Woodcutter is already a very weak $3 card, and Messenger had to cost more because of the on-buy "bonus".

I think that, in the absence of better cheap terminals, Woodcutter-Chancellor can be pretty sweet. You could say, "That's true of any cheap terminal", but I mean that I think it's significantly better than Woodcutter, Chancellor, Navigator, etc. The +Buy and the deck acceleration work well in tandem to let you shuffle multiple new cards into your deck immediately, especially cantrips and Lab variants.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 02, 2016, 01:15:13 pm: Overall, I feel that this card will suck on most boards. Simply put, if you want a card, chances are your opponent wants it as well.

Chancellor and Woodcutter aren't great cards.

The original version is pretty funny though since you could essentially empty out three piles by buying out all the Messenger's. That's actually pretty strong!

In its current form, I just don't know what to make of it. In irl games I've played with it, I pretty much avoid it unless it is the only source of +Buy.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Dingan on March 02, 2016, 01:31:25 pm: This could very well be an attack card. How is
"other players gain a card costing $4 or less"
intrinsically any different than
"other players gain a Curse"
or
"other players gain any card" (Ambassador)?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: LastFootnote on March 02, 2016, 01:33:52 pm: Quote from: Dingan on March 02, 2016, 01:31:25 pm
This could very well be an attack card. How is
"other players gain a card costing $4 or less"
intrinsically any different than
"other players gain a Curse"
or
"other players gain any card" (Ambassador)?

???

You do realize that you get a copy of the card too, right?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Dingan on March 02, 2016, 01:35:20 pm: Quote from: LastFootnote on March 02, 2016, 01:33:52 pm
Quote from: Dingan on March 02, 2016, 01:31:25 pm
This could very well be an attack card. How is
"other players gain a card costing $4 or less"
intrinsically any different than
"other players gain a Curse"
or
"other players gain any card" (Ambassador)?

???

You do realize that you get a copy of the card too, right?

Yes. If Witch was "Everyone gains a Curse" instead of "Everyone else gains a Curse", I would think it should still be an attack card.

EDIT: Minion. Everyone discards and draws 4. It hurts you less (okay, and it usually helps you), but it is ultimately the same exact effect on everyone.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Jack Rudd on March 02, 2016, 01:41:03 pm: It's not an Attack because the effect is on-buy, not on-play. Moat doesn't know how to react to it.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: LastFootnote on March 02, 2016, 02:01:40 pm: Quote from: Beyond Awesome on March 02, 2016, 01:15:13 pm
Chancellor and Woodcutter aren't great cards.

I guess what you're implying is that since they aren't great cards, the combination of them must also be not great. Otherwise why would you mention it? But I don't think that really follows. Fortune Teller isn't a great card either. Are you saying that if you added that attack to Messenger, it still wouldn't be a great card? What if you added five more little bonuses like that, which if attached to a terminal Silver would be weak. Would the end result still be weak overall?

Messenger might very well be on the weaker end of $3-$4 cards, but your line of reasoning here is fallacious.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: eHalcyon on March 02, 2016, 02:20:07 pm: Quote from: dedicateddan on March 02, 2016, 02:16:21 pm
Quote from: GendoIkari on March 02, 2016, 10:45:37 am
Another interesting interaction... I opened Messenger last time I played, mostly because there wasn't much else in way of options. I didn't really know what to give; didn't care to give anything... so I gave Silver. Seemed like the safe choice. Then the next player proceeded to lay down $5 and buy Mint. I told her "you realize that you now only have $2 in your deck, because the gifting effect only happens when messenger is played"

FTFY

You should read the card again...
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Donald X. on March 02, 2016, 03:13:07 pm: There are various cute little combos, but I think there are two main situations in which people buy Messenger.

The first is when they want a Woodcutter. This is far from rare. And when you get it, the when-buy is cute, you don't know what to give people. Pick something you want, that's my advice.

The second is to empty piles. In multiplayer, a jsh357 can empty piles so very fast with this.

Turn 2 it's a little more attractive going later in the turn order. Going last, you can get Messenger handing out Silver, maybe trying to hit $7 fast for Inheritance, and you shuffle in the Silver but the other players do not.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: JW on March 02, 2016, 03:16:53 pm: It's nice to use Messenger to gain the last card in a pile, that way your opponents don't get anything.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Burning Skull on March 02, 2016, 06:26:27 pm: Quote from: JW on March 02, 2016, 03:16:53 pm
It's nice to use Messenger to gain the last card in a pile, that way your opponents don't get anything.

Beating old people is also very satisfactory.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: GendoIkari on March 02, 2016, 06:54:45 pm: Quote from: Jack Rudd on March 02, 2016, 01:41:03 pm
It's not an Attack because the effect is on-buy, not on-play. Moat doesn't know how to react to it.

Correct. Note that Ill-Gotten Gains (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Ill-Gotten_Gains) is not an attack for this reason.

I do agree that "All players gain an attack" should probably have the attack type. If you're playing it, it's because your deck is built in a way to handle the Curses.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: gamesou on March 03, 2016, 02:56:40 am: There is a bit of synergy with Philosopher's Stone. Open Messenger(Potion)/Silver and then buy Stones and more Messengers distributing Silver/Estate. Take extra Coppers. Your deck grows quickly. Buy Duchy early and spike some Provinces.

I don't claim it's a great strategy but I think it can be easily underrated ; an engine player facing that will have to handle of these bad cards you send to him.

The same idea works with Gardens or Silk Road; the top part of Messenger looks like a mediocre enabler but the bottom part should kill some (bad) engines trying to compete.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Accatitippi on March 03, 2016, 09:55:28 am: Quote from: GendoIkari on March 02, 2016, 06:54:45 pm
"All players gain an attack"
Nuclear proliferation - 5c
Action - Attack
Every player may gain an Attack. Every player that didn't gains a Curse. If no player gained an Attack, you may end the game now and have a nice game of something less broken than this.

I think you meant "curse" there.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: terminalCopper on March 04, 2016, 04:26:50 am: Trader should be mentioned.

On-play, with trader in hand, +buy provides a silver.
On-buy, having a trader and $4 means "I get a messenger and a silver, ~~here's your free curse." That's sweet.~~

Edit: Seems like I still don't understand the blue dog. Thx, wero.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: werothegreat on March 04, 2016, 08:48:52 am: Quote from: terminalCopper on March 04, 2016, 04:26:50 am
Trader should be mentioned.

On-play, with trader in hand, +buy provides a silver.
On-buy, having a trader and $4 means "I get a messenger and a silver, here's your free curse." That's sweet.

Actually, the Curse only gets handed out if you gain the Curse, too, due to blue dog shenanigans.

Now if you revealed Watchtower instead...
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Davio on March 04, 2016, 09:04:18 am: Quote from: Limetime on March 02, 2016, 09:45:25 am
Quote from: werothegreat on March 02, 2016, 08:25:41 am

YOU GET A SCOUT
AND YOU GET A SCOUT
AND EVERY- wait, I get a SCOUT, too :(
FTFY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnPL5OXSBNE

Scout Scout get a Scout
I get a Scout
Yeah
Get a Scout Scout Scout I get a Scout
I get a Scout.....
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: LastFootnote on June 09, 2016, 11:42:27 am: The more I play with Messenger, the more I think it's a pretty good card. And I'm just talking about the top part. +Buy and putting your deck into your discard pile together make for something that's often worth the terminal action slot, in a way that Chancellor and Woodcutter aren't. It's effectively two kinds of acceleration in one (three if you count the on-buy that also accelerates your opponents).

One benefit I've been seeing recently is that it protects you from bad reshuffles. I'm talking specifically about those engines that use some sifting to get through your whole deck, leaving a bunch of junk in the discard pile, which you then have to be careful not to shuffle back into your deck (if you can't draw it all). With Messenger, you can just draw as much as you can, potentially netting you a few extra $ if you discarded Coppers, or just getting you whatever ancillary effect your draw cards are giving you (like the Torturer attack). Chancellor did this too, but it was so weak that I never got to see it much.

Maybe I'm being a little bit Roadrunner here. Has anybody else been impressed with Messenger? If you haven't been buying it, I recommend you try it (ideally right after your opponent shuffles, and right before you do).
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Chris is me on June 09, 2016, 12:47:08 pm: I'm also coming around to like Messenger. If you have the terminal space, it really does help get things going. Boards with cantrips are really what it seems built for - in part because those are reasonably harmless to hand out on gain and in part because they don't compete for terminal space with Messenger. I've also used the on buy effect to do things like hand out Bishops so we both get thin faster, or extra copies of cards you generally want just one of like Moneylender.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: jsh357 on June 09, 2016, 12:49:16 pm: Messenger is pretty good for reasons lf covers, but obviously it's at its best in multiplayer.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Dingan on June 09, 2016, 01:12:44 pm: It's cool to open Messenger and gain a Potion when your opponent already bought a Potion, so their second Potion is (usually) junk.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: ehunt on June 10, 2016, 06:04:45 am: Putting the deck in the discard pile in general is improved by the presence of travelers. Even Chancellor/Page is not a shabby opening.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Joseph2302 on June 10, 2016, 06:51:03 am: Quote from: ehunt on June 10, 2016, 06:04:45 am
Putting the deck in the discard pile in general is improved by the presence of travelers. Even Chancellor/Page is not a shabby opening.
Page/scavenger seems pretty good.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Beyond Awesome on June 10, 2016, 10:46:40 am: Quote from: Dingan on June 09, 2016, 01:12:44 pm
It's cool to open Messenger and gain a Potion when your opponent already bought a Potion, so their second Potion is (usually) junk.

I tried this once and regretted it. Though, maybe SP is a bad card choice to have put potion. Familiar cozy 3p so that extra po
Potion is likely to interfere
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: ehunt on June 11, 2016, 04:46:15 pm: Quote from: Beyond Awesome on June 10, 2016, 10:46:40 am
Quote from: Dingan on June 09, 2016, 01:12:44 pm
It's cool to open Messenger and gain a Potion when your opponent already bought a Potion, so their second Potion is (usually) junk.

I tried this once and regretted it. Though, maybe SP is a bad card choice to have put potion. Familiar cozy 3p so that extra po
Potion is likely to interfere

interesting -- which alchemy cards are worth buying two potions for?

vineyard, obviously.
alchemist, if it's worth going for, might be worth a second potion, although not until you're in a good rhythm.
apothecary, once in a while. certainly you're not that sad if your opponent hands you an extra potion with jester or something.
scrying pool, same as about an apothecary (there are plenty of boards where it's worth eating an extra potion if you'll win the split 7-3 or even 6-4).
all the others, i'd say no way.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: gloures on June 12, 2016, 02:06:02 am: Quote from: ehunt on June 11, 2016, 04:46:15 pm
Quote from: Beyond Awesome on June 10, 2016, 10:46:40 am
Quote from: Dingan on June 09, 2016, 01:12:44 pm
It's cool to open Messenger and gain a Potion when your opponent already bought a Potion, so their second Potion is (usually) junk.

I tried this once and regretted it. Though, maybe SP is a bad card choice to have put potion. Familiar cozy 3p so that extra po
Potion is likely to interfere

interesting -- which alchemy cards are worth buying two potions for?

vineyard, obviously.
alchemist, if it's worth going for, might be worth a second potion, although not until you're in a good rhythm.
apothecary, once in a while. certainly you're not that sad if your opponent hands you an extra potion with jester or something.
scrying pool, same as about an apothecary (there are plenty of boards where it's worth eating an extra potion if you'll win the split 7-3 or even 6-4).
all the others, i'd say no way.

Against familiar it´s a risky bet, you might end up giving your opponent a marvelous 2PP hand and it working out great, or he might end up making 3P twice in his oppening shuffle, leading the way to an easy 7-3 split on the curses... Now if someone opens potion for uni, he´d be almost begging to receive a second one with messenger...
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Eran of Arcadia on June 13, 2016, 10:27:34 am: Quote from: jsh357 on June 09, 2016, 12:49:16 pm
Messenger is pretty good for reasons lf covers, but obviously it's at its best in multiplayer.

As I learned last night, it leads to 3 pile endings much faster than expected.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Messenger
Post by: Co0kieL0rd on June 19, 2016, 05:56:34 pm: Basically everything I could note about Messenger has already been said. This has also been implied but I would like to emphasize it: Messenger is one of the few cards that gives the second player an advantage (in cases where you want to buy a Menssenger) and I really like that :)