Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Roadrunner7671 on February 09, 2016, 08:43:17 pm
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I was thinking about Dominion, and this thought struck me. Abandoned Mine is supposedly the best Ruin, but you'd almost always rather have a Copper over an Abandoned Mine. Ruined Market, however, has the potential to fill the much-needed-+buy gap. In my situation, please pretend that Ruins are in the supply not because there is a looter on the board, but because your gaming group wanted to have them in the supply to jazz things up a little. So, given the choice between Copper and Ruined Market (assuming buying nothing is not an option) which one would you rather buy/buy more often? I included Survivors and Ruined Library because I suppose I could see someone justifying Survivors over either Copper or Ruined Market. Ruined Library is sort of there for anyone who thinks, somehow, Ruined Library is better than any of the other options.
Thanks!
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If you need a +buy, a ruined market could even be better than a Mountebank.
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If you need a +buy, a ruined market could even be better than a Mountebank.
Yet I notice that no one has yet voted for Ruined Market, not even you!
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In the 2015 Qvist rankings, Ruined Market was 1st over Abandoned Mine. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14156.0 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14156.0)
This is mainly because Ruined Market is normally the only ruin that has the potential to actually improve your deck, when it occurs on a board without other +Buy.
But I think you're better off necro-ing the Ruins thread that starting a new one.
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If you need a +buy, a ruined market could even be better than a Mountebank.
Yet I notice that no one has yet voted for Ruined Market, not even you!
Edge cases is not something you use to judge your general opinion on
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But I think you're better off necro-ing the Ruins thread that starting a new one.
You might be right, but I've found that people generally like to vote in polls (myself included, I think polls are awesome), as instead of writing a paragraph, they can just anonymously click a bubble, voice their opinion then go on with their lives without actually getting involved.
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I would vote moat.
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Depends on the board.....
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Depends on the board.....
This is very true.
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Are you planning to add a fifth option for Curse?
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Are you planning to add a fifth option for Curse?
I might add a fifth option for Scout, but that would significantly lower my opinion on this community. :P
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Depends on the board.....
This is very true.
Indeed, there are many boards where Ruined Market is the worst or second worst Ruin to have. This is especially true if you get it early.
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Are you planning to add a fifth option for Curse?
I might add a fifth option for Scout, but that would significantly lower my opinion on this community. :P
You mean ruined village?
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Are you planning to add a fifth option for Curse?
I might add a fifth option for Scout, but that would significantly lower my opinion on this community. :P
You mean ruined village?
That was a low blow, but fear not, for I am quick to recover.
Also, it's possible that this post might cause you to make it to the Scout Archives under the section 'Scout Criticism.' Don't worry, 'Iguanaiguana,' I am prepared to do battle with you and any other haters!
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But I think you're better off necro-ing the Ruins thread that starting a new one.
Necro is a Shelter, not a Ruin.
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Well I certainly prefer starting with 7 Coppers in the deck to starting with 7 Ruined Markets.
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I would say that in most cases, Copper is still way better than any ruin.
Of the ruins, Ruined Market is the best one because it's the only one you might buy voluntarily, if you desperately need +Buy. But there are also cases where you would buy Copper voluntarily, for example in some rushes or slogs. And if you want to buy something just for the buy, in a Goons or Merchant Guild engine for example, would you ever buy any Ruin over Copper? I don't think I would.
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And if you want to buy something just for the buy, in a Goons or Merchant Guild engine for example, would you ever buy any Ruin over Copper? I don't think I would.
Because of pile endings, buying ruins like that is surprisingly often relevant, since you'll be swimming in +buys anyway.
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And if you want to buy something just for the buy, in a Goons or Merchant Guild engine for example, would you ever buy any Ruin over Copper? I don't think I would.
Because of pile endings, buying ruins like that is surprisingly often relevant, since you'll be swimming in +buys anyway.
Yeah, okay. You've succesfully edge cased me. :P
Would you ever buy any Ruin over Copper in a Goons/Merchant Guild deck if you expected the card you bought to show up in your hand?
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And if you want to buy something just for the buy, in a Goons or Merchant Guild engine for example, would you ever buy any Ruin over Copper? I don't think I would.
Because of pile endings, buying ruins like that is surprisingly often relevant, since you'll be swimming in +buys anyway.
Yeah, okay. You've succesfully edge cased me. :P
Would you ever buy any Ruin over Copper in a Goons/Merchant Guild deck if you expected the card you bought to show up in your hand?
If your draw card is Scrying Pool, absolutely!
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So, given the choice between Copper and Ruined Market (assuming buying nothing is not an option) which one would you rather buy/buy more often?
This is an entirely different question than the one in the poll.
There are probably more situations where you'd want BUY Ruined Market rather than Copper, given that both are available. However, in the much more common situation that you want to have neither (and therefore would choose to buy nothing instead), taking a Copper would be less bad than a Ruined Market.
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Depends on the board.....
This is more than just a base level of true in this case, though; there is an obvious dichotomy. Let's posit the following (weak) attack:
Pretty Awful Attack
$2 Action-Attack
Each other player gains a Copper or a Ruined Market, their choice.
Which do your opponents choose? Well, if there is no +Buy available, on the firest play it almost always makes sense to take the Ruined Market. If there are large numbers of villages and draw, it might even be useful to take two or three.
But if there is other +Buy available, it's almost certainly better to take the Copper.
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Also depends on the stage of the game.
In the early game, +Buy is often pretty useful, so the Copper is better to help you reach $5+ cards.
Later on, if you do have an engine, that single Copper doesn't matter much, so +Buy is often better.
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Also depends on the stage of the game.
In the early game, +Buy is often pretty useful, so the Copper is better to help you reach $5+ cards.
Later on, if you do have an engine, that single Copper doesn't matter much, so +Buy is often better.
In the early game, +buy is prettu useless don't you mean?
But this is something to consider, too.
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Well I certainly prefer starting with 7 Coppers in the deck to starting with 7 Ruined Markets.
You can buy Coppers so much faster with 7 Ruined Markets, though.
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Hi Roadrunner,
Im sorry, but your poll doesnt make any sense. And why is is private?
You should have included a board at least.
Copper is superior, unless we have a board, where there is no +buy. And then the range is from "best card" too "nice to have"
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Hi Roadrunner,
Im sorry, but your poll doesnt make any sense. And why is is private?
You should have included a board at least.
Copper is superior, unless we have a board, where there is no +buy. And then the range is from "best card" too "nice to have"
No need to apologize! I didn't include a board because I want the question to be 'generally, which would you rather have?'
The poll is only private before you vote and this is to make sure people don't feel pressured and vote for the majority just because.
I hope that clears a few things up!
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Also depends on the stage of the game.
In the early game, +Buy is often pretty useful, so the Copper is better to help you reach $5+ cards.
Later on, if you do have an engine, that single Copper doesn't matter much, so +Buy is often better.
In the early game, +buy is prettu useless don't you mean?
But this is something to consider, too.
Yes, somehow I typed something else than what I meant.
Obviously I meant: Early game +Buy is useless.
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I gotta be honest with you, even though this question isn't formulated perfectly, the results of this poll are pretty shocking. Copper is simply a much, much, much better card for at least 90% of all decks ever, and the results of this poll suggest it's pretty much even.
Like, the question asks whether you'd rather put a Ruined Market or a Copper in your deck. Generate 20 random boards and I challenge you to make me an argument for any deck you could build on any of those boards (and have a decent shot at winning) where Ruined Market would be better to add than a Copper. Like, you could probably do it on one of them, maybe two?
I can think of a lot of reasons why the results would have gone this way, but I have to say I think a lot of people have this very, very wrong and should reconsider. In my mind this is not even close, and this is still a contrived situation that benefits Ruined Market more than would ever come up in a practical game (what I mean by this is that those one or two kingdoms I'm talking about above are probably kingdoms where there's a viable engine but no +Buy AND you get to add Ruined Market to your deck for free whenever you want).
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Ruined Market can be better than Copper when one of the following is true:
* There's a viable engine that just needs +Buy.
* Scrying Pool.
* Vineyards.
* You want to trash it anyway, and Ruined Market is easier to trash than Copper (Procession, Hermit, Jack of All Trades, Graverobber etc.)
* Venture stacks.
In most of these you never want to gain Ruined Market anyway.
Copper is a better card in every other deck. There are even quite a few different decks where if you randomly hit too little to buy something better, you'd pick up Copper over Ruined Market (piles aside), way more than the ones where you'd voluntarily buy Ruined Market.
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Ruined Market is better when actions are better than treasures, in addition to the above:
- Herald, but not Golem
- Library
- Transmute to gain Duchies
- Peddler
- Death Cart (obviously)
- Ironmonger in a sense
- Procession
- Graverobber
- Prince
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I feel like I need to speak strongly here, sorry if I come across as antagonistic, but my point doesn't appear to be getting across. I really don't understand the reasoning behind thinking RM is better than Copper in most decks and explaining my reasoning doesn't appear to be getting through. I feel like this is not close, not in the slightest.
Ruined Market is much, much worse than Copper. Given you're going to draw it anyways, having the option of exchanging an Action for a Buy is really, really bad compared to just having another dollar to spend. For every edge case you can come up with where RM is "better" I can come up with one for Copper just like it (Stables, Bank, Coppersmith, Moneylender, Apothecary. I would bet money that I can make this list longer than the ones for RM).
OK, let's say in that every single kingdom of Dominion that has any of the 14 cards you've both mentioned, you would prefer Ruined Market over Copper 100% of the time in all circumstances. This is ridiculous, BTW.
That's less than 47% of all kingdoms.
And do we agree that Copper is better than RM in all other cases pretty easily? I feel like we've given Ruined Market every single advantage we possibly could here and this is as good as it can possibly get? I can even make pretty strong arguments for why Copper is better than RM in all decks for Prince, Graverobber, Procession, Transmute, and Venture (though "all decks" is surely too ambitious. OK, "almost every deck").
But this is exactly the point I'm trying to make. This choice is so clear to me because I'm thinking about this in a way that could possibly be practical, and it seems a lot of people really like to talk about edge cases and it's actually affecting peoples' judgment. Yeah, it's really cool when we can take a card that is *much worse than Copper* and figure out how to make it a hero, and it's lots of fun to talk about, but remember this?
Generate 20 random boards and I challenge you to make me an argument for any deck you could build on any of those boards (and have a decent shot at winning) where Ruined Market would be better to add than a Copper.
Looking at Rated-Game-style boards (which the community accepts as being the best way to measure overall Dominion skill if I'm not mistaken) and finding how many of them this would actually occur on seems to be the best way to answer this question (unless someone can suggest something better) and that just seems to be glossed over.
The only argument that holds any weight for RM in my opinion is the one where "there's a good engine and no +Buy." Unfortunately, the premise of this question doesn't apply to actual Dominion games, it seems, because the best-case-for-RM assumption that you can just gain it whenever it suits you seems to be what we're working with. For actual Dominion advice, here's a helpful thread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12647.0), BTW. It would be useful to actually generate kingdoms and see how often this happens, but even in that case, even if we assumed RM was game-changing and amazing in those cases, I don't think it happens often enough to really consider, let alone outweigh the fact that it's *so much worse* than Copper pretty much all of the rest of the time.
What I'm trying to say is that things that are fun to talk about and things that actually win you more games of Dominion seem to be getting very much clouded and this poll and discussion reflects that strongly.
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RM is a much worse card to have in your deck most games. You could realistically make an argument that RM is a card you're much more likely to buy (most slogs vs engines without other +buy - I'm not actually sure that it's correct but oh well; at least RM tends to have bigger impact when you do buy it).
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Ruined Market is worse than Copper in the vast majority of decks, yes, and that is what the question, as I read it, is asking. The problem is that it's not a very interesting or applicable question. There's not going to be a situation where you're being forced to gain Ruined Market or Copper but somehow get to choose which one. In a "Which do I trash first?" situation, normally you'll want to get rid of RM.
So people are instead answering "Which card is better than nothing more often?", which is not even really more interesting to ask, but which RM might have a chance of winning. (Even with Stables, Bank, Moneylender, Spice Merchant, Apothecary, etc., you usually don't want to buy more Copper. When you're using Counting House, OTOH, you usually want as much Copper as you can get.) Why is it not more interesting? Well, they are better than nothing in very different situations, as described by others above above.
Finally, what makes me give more consideration to Ruined Market is scarcity. I start the game with 7 Coppers in my deck and if I need more, there is a pile of them that rarely runs out. If I miss the chance to get a Copper it's usually not a big deal. If, on the other hand, I am looking at Ruined Market on top of the Ruins pile, that may be my only chance to get one this game.
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I'm going to go even more strongly than Adam. You only want RM if there is no other source of +Buy and you need +Buy. All these other things are minor edge cases.
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I'm going to go even more strongly than Adam. You only want RM if there is no other source of +Buy and you need +Buy. All these other things are minor edge cases.
But what if I used Pathfinding and Lost Arts on the Ruins pile? Man.
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There's not going to be a situation where you're being forced to gain Ruined Market or Copper but somehow get to choose which one.
Forge says hi.
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Ruined Market is worse than Copper in the vast majority of decks, yes, and that is what the question, as I read it, is asking. The problem is that it's not a very interesting or applicable question.
No arguments here, I agree with you and it's pretty easy. Just press Copper and move on :P
So people are instead answering "Which card is better than nothing more often?", which is not even really more interesting to ask, but which RM might have a chance of winning. (Even with Stables, Bank, Moneylender, Spice Merchant, Apothecary, etc., you usually don't want to buy more Copper. When you're using Counting House, OTOH, you usually want as much Copper as you can get.) Why is it not more interesting? Well, they are better than nothing in very different situations, as described by others above above.
OK, this is a different question, I guess it's kinda similar enough that maybe I could see people answering it, but we're on a slippery slope here. Answering a different question than what was asked isn't really justification for giving a bad answer to the question that was asked.
The answer to it for Ruined Market is still roughly the same, right? It's just engines that desperately need +Buy. But you have to take away Procession and Transmute and Jack and Scrying Pool and all that stuff along with that other stuff you took away from Copper to answer that question, yeah? TBH I really don't see any of that as being relevant at all to the question being asked and I think it's pretty distracting. (EDIT: ninja'd by Kirian)
In any case, Copper is better than nothing in tons of decks! Gardens, Counting House, Apothecary (yes, still Apothecary sometimes), Phil Stone, Duke. Like, pretty much any slog wants Copper at some point. Just because these cases aren't as interesting doesn't mean they aren't as numerous.
Finally, what makes me give more consideration to Ruined Market is scarcity. I start the game with 7 Coppers in my deck and if I need more, there is a pile of them that rarely runs out. If I miss the chance to get a Copper it's usually not a big deal. If, on the other hand, I am looking at Ruined Market on top of the Ruins pile, that may be my only chance to get one this game.
I agree with this. On the other hand, this is so far away from the question that was asked, you know? I thought we were being generous to RM by assuming you could get it exactly when you want, since its scarcity is actually a huge knock against it. These engine decks that desperately need +Buy can't reasonably be built on boards where you can't guarantee you'll even get the card or even have the chance, right? Wasn't that the best thing RM had?
In any case, when you take this into account (see that thread I linked) then Throne Room and King's Court shoot up to the top of the list for enablers (I'd venture to say their presence is required for anything good to come of your deck), along with gainers, and I have no doubt that these cases are so exceedingly rare that they shouldn't enter a discussion that even pretends to have practical applications.
There's not going to be a situation where you're being forced to gain Ruined Market or Copper but somehow get to choose which one.
Forge says hi.
Clearly Curse is the best call in this situation, right? inb4 someone replies with "LOL BUT WHAT IF THE CURSES ARE GONE?"
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I'm going to go even more strongly than Adam. You only want RM if there is no other source of +Buy and you need +Buy. All these other things are minor edge cases.
But what if I used Pathfinding and Lost Arts on the Ruins pile? Man.
That is super-fun to do, especially if you can somehow pull it off in a game where your opponent gives you all 10 Ruins.
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There's not going to be a situation where you're being forced to gain Ruined Market or Copper but somehow get to choose which one.
Forge says hi.
Only a non-Dominion player deals in absolutes.
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I think a lot of people will say RM is better than Copper not because it is actually the better card on most boards, but because it is far more often a game-changer. That is, you're rarely saying "Man, I wish I had 1 more Copper. If I did, boy would my deck would be soooo much better!". But there are times when you're saying "Man, I wish I had another buy. I would pay $11 for an Herbalist or something right now if I could."
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I think a lot of people will say RM is better than Copper not because it is actually the better card on most boards, but because it is far more often a game-changer. That is, you're rarely saying "Man, I wish I had 1 more Copper. If I did, boy would my deck would be soooo much better!". But there are times when you're saying "Man, I wish I had another buy. I would pay $11 for an Herbalist or something right now if I could."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46Q_J_ypBuc
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I think a lot of people will say RM is better than Copper not because it is actually the better card on most boards, but because it is far more often a game-changer. That is, you're rarely saying "Man, I wish I had 1 more Copper. If I did, boy would my deck would be soooo much better!". But there are times when you're saying "Man, I wish I had another buy. I would pay $11 for an Herbalist or something right now if I could."
Apothecary says hi. :P
But that $11 Herbalist thing is something that so seldom happens, which is why this kind of rhetoric is really misleading. It gets talked about at this point precisely because it's so rare. We don't talk this way about Copper because everybody already knows there are situations where you want to buy Copper and they've been around for so much longer (and the scarcity thing too) that it's not quite as difficult to understand the situations where you want to do it.
Don't forget about the situations where you draw that Ruined Market, don't have the Action or don't need the Buy, and don't have that extra $1 to spend, which is also a huge deal.
Seriously, just generate random kingdoms until you find one where that could come up. I'll generate kingdoms until I find one where $1 difference on a turn is a big deal. I think I'll be done much sooner.
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I'm going to go even more strongly than Adam. You only want RM if there is no other source of +Buy and you need +Buy. All these other things are minor edge cases.
Maybe you get a dud and can't afford a market but really need +buy.
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generate random kingdoms until you find one where that could come up
Off the top of my head, something like
Village, thinner, Scrying Pool, Vault/Secret Chamber
In such a Kingdom, it could be paramount to have a single +buy. It could mean the difference between easily buying 2 Colonies per turn and 1 Colony per turn. Even if all you had was Necropolis and no other villages.
I'm not saying RM is actually better. I think Copper is usually better than RM. What I'm saying is I think there are some boards where RM is way better than Copper, and I think that is why some people tend to say RM is better than Copper.
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generate random kingdoms until you find one where that could come up
Off the top of my head, something like
Village, thinner, Scrying Pool, Vault/Secret Chamber
In such a Kingdom, it could be paramount to have a single +buy. It could mean the difference between easily buying 2 Colonies per turn and 1 Colony per turn. Even if all you had was Necropolis and no other villages.
I'm not saying RM is actually better. I think Copper is usually better than RM. What I'm saying is I think there are some boards where RM is way better than Copper, and I think that is why some people tend to say RM is better than Copper.
If having a Copper instead of a Ruined Market bumps me up to $8 from $7, letting me get the game-winning Province or something, then I'd say Copper was way better than Ruined Market. After all, it made the difference between victory and defeat.
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Even though votes for Copper have started to poll away, I still think the vote was much closer thsn it should've been. I think if you just read what Adam said you'll be fine. I'm not going to try and repeat all of that.
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There's not going to be a situation where you're being forced to gain Ruined Market or Copper but somehow get to choose which one.
Forge says hi.
Only a non-Dominion player deals in absolutes.
Edge cases: singletee, Donald X.