Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Game Reports => Topic started by: Jeebus on January 18, 2016, 10:46:27 am

Title: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: Jeebus on January 18, 2016, 10:46:27 am
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/28/Counterfeit.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Counterfeit) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/3/37/Mystic.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mystic) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/f8/Rebuild.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Rebuild) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/d/dd/Royal_Seal.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Royal Seal) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/f3/Witch.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Witch)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/2f/Beggar.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Beggar) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/8/8e/Hermit.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Hermit) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/c1/Herald.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Herald) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/7/7a/Procession.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Procession) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/cf/Talisman.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Talisman)
Code: [Select]
Beggar, Hermit, Herald, Procession, Talisman, Counterfeit, Mystic, Rebuild, Royal Seal, Witch
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160114/log.0.1452802024848.txt

Which strat is better here?

My opponent made a lot of claims when we played. He said that he would have won by emptying all the Victory piles if he had just drawn all his Madmen on the last turn. As far as I can see, even if he had, he would only have 6 buys and $37, not enough to win. He did say he had 5 Counterfeits, not sure of he actually believed so.

He also said he had around 18% chance of failing to draw all his Madmen, so that's an 82% chance of drawing his deck. I tried to calculate the odds, and I got 22% of drawing his deck on that turn (turn 15) given any start hand. In actuality his start hand had two Madmen, and in that situation he had a 64% chance of drawing the third one (which means he draws his deck).

Also I made a mistake. On turn 11, I should have trashed two Provinces, not one. That would have made it even more difficult to score a lot of points in the end for the Madman/Counterfeit player.
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: shark_bait on January 18, 2016, 12:00:23 pm
Madman/Counterfeit must be the new big thing.  How did I ever miss out on this amazing combo.....

I don't see how Madman does well here against a Rebuild VP depletion.
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: faust on January 18, 2016, 01:24:18 pm
Eh. There is an insteresting engine to be built here involving Hermit, Procession, Talisman, Herald, Witch, Counterfeit... I'm afraid it might still be too slow. But I think it would be better than a Madman megaturn. Madman/Counterfeit might be worth it if this board had a Coppersmith.
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: AdamH on January 18, 2016, 01:55:20 pm
I don't think anything on this board is stronger than Rebuild. Rebuild doesn't even really have any support here. Maybe you get some Beggars at some point? This makes me sad.

Madman/Counterfeit seems kind of cool, actually. Probably needs very specific support, most of which was here on this board.

Your opponent needs a serious dose of YMYOSL. He really wants to blame his loss on a bad draw but I don't like the fact that he focused so hard on Hermits after seeing his opponent was going for Rebuilds -- if he had gotten more Counterfeits early he could have sped up quite a bit, and if he had even tried to hit $5 a single Witch would have slowed you down quite a lot, even with your Hermits. Also I think he wants multiple Beggars; after playing his first Madman for draw if he had a Beggar in hand he could have drawn more with his second Madman -- with more Counterfeits in his deck his payload would have gone up significantly on that big turn. Even on his last turn he ends the game on a loss while trashing Counterfeits -- he still has three Madmen in his deck and is pretty much guaranteed to draw his deck next turn. Just keep your Counterfeits, buy some Duchies, and see if you can win next turn if you really think your deck is that good.

But he wants to whine that he didn't get a good draw. Good for him. He won't get much better at Dominion with that attitude.

As for you, I think I might have only picked up one Hermit in order to hit $5 more and get MOAR Rebuilds -- you really want 3 Rebilds ASAP when uncontested and really you want much more than that. You could have ended this game quicker by milling Provinces against this guy's strats.
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: DG on January 18, 2016, 04:23:34 pm
Surely there's a reasonable herald/mystic engine here set up with hermit and counterfeit?
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: AdamH on January 18, 2016, 04:24:47 pm
Yeah it's reasonable, and I'm pretty sure it beats the pants off Big Money, but Rebuild is Rebuild  :'( :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on January 18, 2016, 05:21:23 pm
Quote from: AdamH on January 18, 2016, 01:55:20 pm
I don't think anything on this board is stronger than Rebuild. Rebuild doesn't even really have any support here. Maybe you get some Beggars at some point? This makes me sad.

Madman/Counterfeit seems kind of cool, actually. Probably needs very specific support, most of which was here on this board.

Your opponent needs a serious dose of YMYOSL. He really wants to blame his loss on a bad draw but I don't like the fact that he focused so hard on Hermits after seeing his opponent was going for Rebuilds -- if he had gotten more Counterfeits early he could have sped up quite a bit, and if he had even tried to hit $5 a single Witch would have slowed you down quite a lot, even with your Hermits. Also I think he wants multiple Beggars; after playing his first Madman for draw if he had a Beggar in hand he could have drawn more with his second Madman -- with more Counterfeits in his deck his payload would have gone up significantly on that big turn. Even on his last turn he ends the game on a loss while trashing Counterfeits -- he still has three Madmen in his deck and is pretty much guaranteed to draw his deck next turn. Just keep your Counterfeits, buy some Duchies, and see if you can win next turn if you really think your deck is that good.

But he wants to whine that he didn't get a good draw. Good for him. He won't get much better at Dominion with that attitude.

As for you, I think I might have only picked up one Hermit in order to hit $5 more and get MOAR Rebuilds -- you really want 3 Rebilds ASAP when uncontested and really you want much more than that. You could have ended this game quicker by milling Provinces against this guy's strats.

How does Hermit help you hit $5, at least in the short run that matters for Rebuild? I'm asking with sincerity.
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: singletee on January 18, 2016, 05:22:49 pm
Quote from: A Drowned Kernel on January 18, 2016, 05:21:23 pm
Quote from: AdamH on January 18, 2016, 01:55:20 pm
I don't think anything on this board is stronger than Rebuild. Rebuild doesn't even really have any support here. Maybe you get some Beggars at some point? This makes me sad.

Madman/Counterfeit seems kind of cool, actually. Probably needs very specific support, most of which was here on this board.

Your opponent needs a serious dose of YMYOSL. He really wants to blame his loss on a bad draw but I don't like the fact that he focused so hard on Hermits after seeing his opponent was going for Rebuilds -- if he had gotten more Counterfeits early he could have sped up quite a bit, and if he had even tried to hit $5 a single Witch would have slowed you down quite a lot, even with your Hermits. Also I think he wants multiple Beggars; after playing his first Madman for draw if he had a Beggar in hand he could have drawn more with his second Madman -- with more Counterfeits in his deck his payload would have gone up significantly on that big turn. Even on his last turn he ends the game on a loss while trashing Counterfeits -- he still has three Madmen in his deck and is pretty much guaranteed to draw his deck next turn. Just keep your Counterfeits, buy some Duchies, and see if you can win next turn if you really think your deck is that good.

But he wants to whine that he didn't get a good draw. Good for him. He won't get much better at Dominion with that attitude.

As for you, I think I might have only picked up one Hermit in order to hit $5 more and get MOAR Rebuilds -- you really want 3 Rebilds ASAP when uncontested and really you want much more than that. You could have ended this game quicker by milling Provinces against this guy's strats.

How does Hermit help you hit $5, at least in the short run that matters for Rebuild? I'm asking with sincerity.

It doesn't; picking up only one Hermit (in favor of Silver) does.
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: AdamH on January 18, 2016, 05:23:53 pm
Quote from: A Drowned Kernel on January 18, 2016, 05:21:23 pm
How does Hermit help you hit $5, at least in the short run that matters for Rebuild? I'm asking with sincerity.

I was thinking it would trash two Shelters that would otherwise be dead cards, trash incoming Purples that a competent opponent would be giving you, and it can gain Silvers which help you hit $5 -- I mean, I'd get one because I have to believe it helps you hit $5 more often than not getting would help, which is especially important when not mirrored.
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: Burning Skull on January 18, 2016, 06:46:03 pm
I think engine vs Rebuild would have been close here if Beggar was say a Pearl Diver. But Madmen/Counterfeit? How is that supposed to work...
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: WanderingWinder on January 19, 2016, 08:47:52 am
I would not count on anything beating Rebuild here, but I would be curious as to what else you do. Is a Witch worth it? If so, when? If so, do you also get Hermit? I don't think I want a Hermit if my opponent isn't going to be cursing me, as I don't want tons of Silver necessarily, and what silvers I do want, I want fast. Shelters would push me more towards Hermit, but I still don't think it's enough. I mean, I really want the silvers right away, because I want to hit 5 ASAP.
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: Davio on January 19, 2016, 10:15:34 am
Well, if your opponent is completely ignoring Rebuild, getting a Hermit for Silver-flooding seems decent, also to trash incoming Curses.
And grabbing a Beggar just to get those Rebuilds and Duchies seems okay.
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: Jeebus on January 19, 2016, 10:43:14 am
Quote from: WanderingWinder on January 19, 2016, 08:47:52 am
I would not count on anything beating Rebuild here, but I would be curious as to what else you do. Is a Witch worth it? If so, when? If so, do you also get Hermit? I don't think I want a Hermit if my opponent isn't going to be cursing me, as I don't want tons of Silver necessarily, and what silvers I do want, I want fast. Shelters would push me more towards Hermit, but I still don't think it's enough. I mean, I really want the silvers right away, because I want to hit 5 ASAP.

Hermits cleared out Shelters and got me Silvers, and Madmen cycle the deck quickly and helped me buy Rebuild and later a Province outright. The game was over so quickly that tons of Silvers was not happening. I feel like a couple of Hermits helped me end it quicker here. But it's true that I opened 2/5 and got a Rebuild right away, maybe that changed it (the usefulness of Hermit).
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: Davio on January 20, 2016, 02:49:54 am
I'm biased toward Hermit, finding it a useful utility card for a lot of decks.

I can use it with an engine, with a money-deck and with decks in between.
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: Dingan on January 20, 2016, 12:31:37 pm
Just throwing this out there for the sake of discussion..
How does Counterfeit affect the Hermit - Market Square combo (http://dominionstrategy.com/2013/02/11/combo-of-the-day-30-hermitmarket-square/)?  (Note: all 3 cards are Dark Ages.)  I assume that would surely beat straight Rebuild or Witch/Rebuild (cus Hermit-MS beats straight Rebuild, right?).
Title: Re: Madman/Counterfeit vs. Rebuild
Post by: Limetime on January 20, 2016, 01:03:46 pm
Quote from: Dingan on January 20, 2016, 12:31:37 pm
Just throwing this out there for the sake of discussion..
How does Counterfeit affect the Hermit - Market Square combo (http://dominionstrategy.com/2013/02/11/combo-of-the-day-30-hermitmarket-square/)?  (Note: all 3 cards are Dark Ages.)  I assume that would surely beat straight Rebuild or Witch/Rebuild (cus Hermit-MS beats straight Rebuild, right?).
You probably won't hit 5 with hermit/market square before you kick off.