So...is it bad that I clicked it?Do you like computer viruses?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bookmark_(World_Wide_Web)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bookmark_(World_Wide_Web)
Just FYI, that link isn't working right.
Scout doesn't look very good here. Why did the players buy it at all?
[...] But don't spoil it!
Scout doesn't look very good here. Why did the players buy it at all?*Heavy sputtering*
I think generally the criticism of Scout sums up in the words 'Opportunity Cost'.I appreciate this. Thank you.
It only hurts you because it is taking the place of something that would help you more.
Blah blah blah Forum Mafia blah blah Scout blah Scout blah blah Dominion.This was what you meant to post, right?
https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160115/log.0.1452822816914.txt
I think it's good to have the Scout discussion localized to a thread like this. If someone drones on about Scout, you can say, "Hey, take it to SA".That was my intention.
In reflection of this post, it is pointless, and I shouldn't post it, but I wasted time typing it, so here we are.
This thread is satire, right? I like it.You just wait until I get computer access: we got Apothecaries, Mystics, Nobles, Great Halls, Harems, other stuff, etc.
I still think Apothecary/Scout is the best combo with Scout
I still think Apothecary/Scout is the best combo with Scout
It's not a combo. It's not really even something you want to do.
"I think generally the criticism of Scout sums up in the words 'Opportunity cost.' It only hurts you because it is taking the place of something that would help you more." -Jamfamsam
Thank you, Jamfamsam, for providing a common argument as to why Scout is bad. However, what is there that might help you more? Cards like Sea Hag, JOAT and Remake are generally better than Scout, I will not argue that they are better than Scout. But here's the thing that causes lots of people to disagree with me: I think Scout passes the Silver Test. I don't think Scout's opportunity cost is super low. So the 'Oppurtunity Cost' argument doesn't faze me because it doesn't make sense; Scout doesn't have low Oppurtunity Cost.
I'm saying that if the Oppurtunity arises to get a Scout, it's probably a good idea."I think generally the criticism of Scout sums up in the words 'Opportunity cost.' It only hurts you because it is taking the place of something that would help you more." -Jamfamsam
Thank you, Jamfamsam, for providing a common argument as to why Scout is bad. However, what is there that might help you more? Cards like Sea Hag, JOAT and Remake are generally better than Scout, I will not argue that they are better than Scout. But here's the thing that causes lots of people to disagree with me: I think Scout passes the Silver Test. I don't think Scout's opportunity cost is super low. So the 'Oppurtunity Cost' argument doesn't faze me because it doesn't make sense; Scout doesn't have low Oppurtunity Cost.
Um, you're arguing against him by agreeing with him...you're saying that it has a high opportunity cost, which is the exact same thing as Jamfamsam is saying...
I'm saying that if the Oppurtunity arises to get a Scout, it's probably a good idea.
Wait, does Mountebank have a high or low opportunity cost?
Econ teacher: the 'height' of your opportunity cost depends on alternatives.Thank you, for some reason I thought it was the other way around.
Having $6 and buying a scout on a board with mountebank and gold: there is a high opportunity cost for buying scout.
Having $4 when you already have 5 nobles, 3 harems, 2 great halls and the only other 4 card cost is younh witch and all the curses are gone? Lower opportunity cost.
The general claim against scout is: buying scout has a high opportunit cost, so it's not worth it, usually.
Oh, no. This thread has exhibited the first telltale sign that it will go off-topic: memes!
op·por·tu·ni·ty cost
noun [ECONOMICS]
the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen.
_____
Basically the Cost of Scout is 1 Buy and $4. The Opportunity Cost of Scout is the [missed] opportunity to buy something that may be of greater benefit with the same resources.
What RR needs to done - as I am sure he knows - is to prove that there are more situations than others (including me) generally think where it's worth buying scout. He needs to prove that our estimate of the opportunity cost of buying scout is lower than we think it is.The problem is, many of you are biased against Scout. You automatically assume it's bad and you are willing to ignore evidence just to prevent your world from falling apart.
What RR needs to done - as I am sure he knows - is to prove that there are more situations than others (including me) generally think where it's worth buying scout. He needs to prove that our estimate of the opportunity cost of buying scout is lower than we think it is.The problem is, many of you are biased against Scout. You automatically assume it's bad and you are willing to ignore evidence just to prevent your world from falling apart.
The problem is, many of you are biased against Scout. You automatically assume it's bad and you are willing to ignore evidence just to prevent your world from falling apart.
Scout is a card with two prime purposes: it puts victory cards into your hand, and it reorders the top cards of your deck. It also has the added plus of being non-terminal.What RR needs to done - as I am sure he knows - is to prove that there are more situations than others (including me) generally think where it's worth buying scout. He needs to prove that our estimate of the opportunity cost of buying scout is lower than we think it is.The problem is, many of you are biased against Scout. You automatically assume it's bad and you are willing to ignore evidence just to prevent your world from falling apart.
I am fairly new to this. I just 'discovered' this scout-meme thing a few days ago. But I could be persuaded: can you give a theoretical description of when/how you'd use scout?
Am I supposed to list all the other cards that can serve those functions as well?Sure, if you want.
Scout is a card with two prime purposes: it puts victory cards into your hand, and it reorders the top cards of your deck. It also has the added plus of being non-terminal.
So let's focus on the fact that it puts victory cards into your hand. This is obviously good in the end game where you don't want your next turn polluted by Duchies and Provinces, so you can draw 2-4 Victory cards and make it more likely that you can buy that last Province next turn.
However, Scout can also combo with a deck full of alt-VP. Is Nobles the only draw for your engine? Put them in hand with Scout! Island is the only trashing? Speed up that process with Scout! Buying a lot of Duchies to help your Dukes? Maybe you can hit $5 next turn if you play Scout and draw three Duchies. Have Great Halls because they are better than nothing on the board that you're playing? Draw them with Scout! Harems? Scout has a solution for that.
In a rush strategy, Scout usually isn't that good as it takes a valuable turn to pick one up. However, in a Gardens/Silk Road/Feodum slog, Scout can draw you a lot of cards and make your next turn that much better. Now, with all these victory cards in your hand, what can you do? If they are an Action-Victory hybrid, you can obviously play them. But what if they are a Silk Road or a Garden? You can play discard for benefit cards (Warehouse, Cellar, Inn, Horse Traders, Embassy, etc.) as there are tons of those. You can also use cards that like having victory cards in your hand, such as Madman, Crossroads, Baron, Tournament or Explorer. And Apothecary is often considered to be Scout's best combo, as Apothecary chokes on the green cards that Scout can pick up easily. Finally, Inheritance, an event, combos with Scout for obvious reasons.
Now let's focus on our second point: Scout reorders the top cards of your deck (assuming that you don't draw four Victory cards). When can reordering the top cards be a good idea? When you have a cantrip in your hand (anything that gives +1 card and +1 action) you can decide what card you want to draw. Already have $7? Put a Copper on top of your deck and save that Gold that you were going to draw with your Walled Village. With non-terminal weak draw, like Ruined Library, Moat, Mercanary and other cards that only give +1 card or +2 cards, you can put your treasure cards on top and save your action cards for next turn. Scout also helps cards that care about the top card of your deck, such as Mystic and Wishing Well. Scout can also combo with Spy particularly better than other cantrips, as you put the card that you want to draw with Spy on top of your deck, then you put a Curse/Copper/Ruin right under that card so that you can discard it with Spy. Doctor and Scout can be a combo, but not if you're hoping to trash Estates with Doctor! You can guarantee that Doctor will hit a few of your coppers, though. I will admit that the reordering part of Scout is not the strongest aspect of the card, but it is still something to look for.
Finally, Scout is non-terminal. What does this mean? This means the addition of Scout to your deck is less likely to hurt than a terminal card that is considered 'weak.' It also means that in a pinch, you can Prince Scout if you are desperate for a village. You can also find it with Golem for a village (if you find another non terminal, which could be another Scout!). Scout can also lower the price of Peddler and activate Conspirator, but it's unlikely that you should buy Scout just for that purpose.
*Drops mic*
So, in my opinion, this thread isn't about scout, it's about Roadrunner.I do!
In my opinion, Roadrunner is hilarious, because everything he says is 99% serious, and 1% genius satire.
Anyone care to argue the point with me?
So, in my opinion, this thread isn't about scout, it's about Roadrunner.I do!
In my opinion, Roadrunner is hilarious, because everything he says is 99% serious, and 1% genius satire.
Anyone care to argue the point with me?
We have talked enough about scout imo. Why don't we move on to something that will help our Dominion skills a little more?Start a thread! I support that!
Roadrunner, what ranking would you honestly give Scout on Qvist's rankings of 4-costs? Personally I wouldn't put it last, but I can't see it in the top 55.I gave it 32, 31 or 30. I can't remember, but it was definitely one of those. I'm not yet sure whether Adventures made it better or worse.
Roadrunner, what ranking would you honestly give Scout on Qvist's rankings of 4-costs? Personally I wouldn't put it last, but I can't see it in the top 55.
Treasure Map, Coppersmith, and even Taxman are all good candidates. Thief and Pirate Ship get a pass because I've actually experienced the moment where they are actually powerful. I've never actually gotten Coppersmith to work, Taxman is pretty awful, and Treasure Map just doesn't seem worth it all that often. Scout at least has the potential to be picked up on a spare gain (Ironworks that ran out of good targets) and be useful in engines that are sputtering because they greened too hard. Just being non-terminal goes a long way, because there are a lot of decks that just like having more actions (Herald, Scrying Pool, Vineyards,...)It's a shame I can't hit the +1 button more than once. But I teared up a little while reading this.
Treasure Map, Coppersmith, and even Taxman are all good candidates. Thief and Pirate Ship get a pass because I've actually experienced the moment where they are actually powerful. I've never actually gotten Coppersmith to work, Taxman is pretty awful, and Treasure Map just doesn't seem worth it all that often. Scout at least has the potential to be picked up on a spare gain (Ironworks that ran out of good targets) and be useful in engines that are sputtering because they greened too hard. Just being non-terminal goes a long way, because there are a lot of decks that just like having more actions (Herald, Scrying Pool, Vineyards,...)
If you give me the link, I will show you!
Pretty much agree with all of them. Coppersmith may be a contender for being at the bottom cause it's super rare that it is worth it, but Taxman and Treasure Maps atleast do something significant, altough they don't do it very often.
Scout is just underwhelming even in cases where it should theoretically shine.
@Roadrunnner: Can you give us the list with all the cards you had below Scout? That would be fun to see. (You can access it still if you remember your password)
If you give me the link, I will show you!
Pretty much agree with all of them. Coppersmith may be a contender for being at the bottom cause it's super rare that it is worth it, but Taxman and Treasure Maps atleast do something significant, altough they don't do it very often.
Scout is just underwhelming even in cases where it should theoretically shine.
@Roadrunnner: Can you give us the list with all the cards you had below Scout? That would be fun to see. (You can access it still if you remember your password)
NSFW
Here is a screenshot of everything Scout and below. My list (if made today) would be very, very different. Please no judging.
Did you measure their strength or how much you like them?I'm not sure. I think both.
Well, if scout is your favorite card and also the worst card, then it make sense for it to be in the middle.Did you measure their strength or how much you like them?I'm not sure. I think both.
Well, if scout is your favorite card and also the worst card, then it make sense for it to be in the middle.Did you measure their strength or how much you like them?I'm not sure. I think both.
Ok, I buy that Treasure Map isn't the worst. I'm still waiting for the board where Coppersmith can do anything good (and you have time to make it work). Even when nothing else is going on Taxman struggles to pass the silver test for me. I guess I agree that the picking up while greening is rare, so the primary use of scout is as non-terminal re-arranger. Truly it is a ruined village+. And well, I can see that being better than a couple terminals that just don't do much of anything.
Taxman is way worse than mine (and Mine is one of the worst 5-costs). It effectively decreases your handsize by 3 (!), so you better have a ton of draw. And if you have that much draw, the attack is probably irrelevant (opponent will just draw it all anyway), and so it effectively says "discard a treasure, if you do, gain a peddler" (assuming you reliably draw your deck). This means that it takes 4 turns to have payed out more than a silver. Do you have those four turns (and 4 actions and 4 cards)? It's just awful.Well, if scout is your favorite card and also the worst card, then it make sense for it to be in the middle.Did you measure their strength or how much you like them?I'm not sure. I think both.
Ok, I buy that Treasure Map isn't the worst. I'm still waiting for the board where Coppersmith can do anything good (and you have time to make it work). Even when nothing else is going on Taxman struggles to pass the silver test for me. I guess I agree that the picking up while greening is rare, so the primary use of scout is as non-terminal re-arranger. Truly it is a ruined village+. And well, I can see that being better than a couple terminals that just don't do much of anything.
Taxman is pretty good actually, definitely not one of the bottom 5 $4 cards. It's a slightly weaker, but also cheaper Mine with a Cutpurse-ish attack to boot. It's strong on boards where Mine would also be strong - engine boards with good draw and +Buy, but no other Copper trashing. It's especially awesome in Colony games.
Every card can be useful, but Scout is probably the card for which those situations are rarest.
I'm still waiting for the board where Coppersmith can do anything good (and you have time to make it work).
Taxman is way worse than mine (and Mine is one of the worst 5-costs). It effectively decreases your handsize by 3 (!), so you better have a ton of draw. And if you have that much draw, the attack is probably irrelevant (opponent will just draw it all anyway), and so it effectively says "discard a treasure, if you do, gain a peddler" (assuming you reliably draw your deck). This means that it takes 4 turns to have payed out more than a silver. Do you have those four turns (and 4 actions and 4 cards)? It's just awful.
Taxman is pretty good actually, definitely not one of the bottom 5 $4 cards. It's a slightly weaker, but also cheaper Mine with a Cutpurse-ish attack to boot. It's strong on boards where Mine would also be strong - engine boards with good draw and +Buy, but no other Copper trashing. It's especially awesome in Colony games.
Every card can be useful, but Scout is probably the card for which those situations are rarest.
Coppersmith generally has 2 roles: early game accelerator and massive $ payload.
Oh, so now we're saying Scout isn't weak, it's just not super strong? It's a start, guys.
And what are you talking about, 'game breaking?' There are like 15 cards that are game breaking. 15 < 90-93.
Scout is never bad! It doesn't have to be great, but if you get a free Scout, it's insanenotto take it.
No you did not fix that for me! I meant what I said and I said what I meant.Scout is never bad! It doesn't have to be great, but if you get a free Scout, it's insanenotto take it.
FTFY.
No you did not fix that for me! I meant what I said and I said what I meant.Scout is never bad! It doesn't have to be great, but if you get a free Scout, it's insanenotto take it.
FTFY.
An elephant's faithful 100%
This is some bull. I'm never going to get anything done talking to Awaclus, am I?No you did not fix that for me! I meant what I said and I said what I meant.Scout is never bad! It doesn't have to be great, but if you get a free Scout, it's insanenotto take it.
FTFY.
An elephant's faithful 100%
A weaker Laboratory (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Cultist) which hands Scouts (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Ruined_Village) over to your opponent is considered one of the strongest $5 cards in the game. That's how bad the card is.
This is some bull.
I need to make a joke about a current Mafia game but I can't :(This is some bull.
No it's not. It was the #3 $5 card (and underrated) in Qvist's rankings this year.
90-93% of the time, he disagrees for the sake of disagreeing, considering how short life is.This is some bull. I'm never going to get anything done talking to Awaclus, am I?No you did not fix that for me! I meant what I said and I said what I meant.Scout is never bad! It doesn't have to be great, but if you get a free Scout, it's insanenotto take it.
FTFY.
An elephant's faithful 100%
A weaker Laboratory (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Cultist) which hands Scouts (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Ruined_Village) over to your opponent is considered one of the strongest $5 cards in the game. That's how bad the card is.
Ok, yes I agree that Taxman is only viable in a kingdom with no engine sort of thing at all. I was just addressing Aleimon Thimble's argument that it is.Taxman is way worse than mine (and Mine is one of the worst 5-costs). It effectively decreases your handsize by 3 (!), so you better have a ton of draw. And if you have that much draw, the attack is probably irrelevant (opponent will just draw it all anyway), and so it effectively says "discard a treasure, if you do, gain a peddler" (assuming you reliably draw your deck). This means that it takes 4 turns to have payed out more than a silver. Do you have those four turns (and 4 actions and 4 cards)? It's just awful.
You don't reliably draw your deck, you're going for Taxman.
In the type of game where nothing's going on, any early hand with Taxman in it is better than the same hand with a Silver instead of Taxman. For instance, if you have a Silver and 4 Coppers, you can buy a Gold, but if you have a Taxman and 4 Coppers, you can turn one of those Coppers into a Silver and buy a Silver (which is roughly as good as buying a Gold) and you attack your opponent. If you have a Silver and 3 Coppers, you can buy a Silver, but if you have a Taxman and 3 Coppers, you get that same benefit while you're also trashing a Copper and attacking your opponent. It's only worse than Silver in your current hand when you're greening, and in that case, you can utilize the topdecking ability to set up big turns and make your opponent's turns significantly weaker.
If it's a kingdom where you want to buy something other than a Silver whenever you have $5, Taxman is not very good. Which is a lot of the time, but not every time, and the games where Taxman is useful are more common than the games where Scout is useful and the Taxman in those games is also more powerful than the Scout in those other games.
Now your argument basically just shows that Taxman-BM is better than BMU. Okay, yes, this is true (and the same cannot be said for Scout). However, how often will there not only not be an engine, but also the best BM strategy involves Taxman? Most terminal 4-costs would be better, not to mention plenty of cards at other costs. Big-Money decks have very limited terminal space which is hardly ever best filled by Taxman. That's why you should usually just take a silver if Taxman is your only option at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png).
Okay, so you definitely don't want to open Coppersmith there and you got the perfect turn 3/4. Probably open pawn/silver to maximize chances of getting Apprentices, then you're going to want to get Fortresses, and I think after that Treasure map (!) is a better option. Two treasure maps become non-terminal $12 while two Coppersmiths are terminal $14. The 2-coin difference is more than made up for by:I'm still waiting for the board where Coppersmith can do anything good (and you have time to make it work).
Coppersmith generally has 2 roles: early game accelerator and massive $ payload.
In this game (http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20151017/log.0.1445095505354.txt), Apprentice/Fortress provides huge draw and actions but poor Copper trashing, and Coppersmith is a better payload than Fool's Gold or Treasure Map.
Why? Take a look at the numbers:
Coppersmith: terminal $7 in 1 card costing $4
Treasure Map, cashed in for 2 golds: non-terminal $6 in 2 cards costing $4
Fool's Gold: non-terminal $8 in 2 cards costing $4 and 2 buys
It feels like maybe 1/5 of games (even with Taxman as one of the kingdom cards) tops are BM games, and maybe 1/10 of the ones BM games with Taxman in them don't have anything better, so that's like a 2% gain rate by my estimation. I'd put scout at more like 5%.Now your argument basically just shows that Taxman-BM is better than BMU. Okay, yes, this is true (and the same cannot be said for Scout). However, how often will there not only not be an engine, but also the best BM strategy involves Taxman? Most terminal 4-costs would be better, not to mention plenty of cards at other costs. Big-Money decks have very limited terminal space which is hardly ever best filled by Taxman. That's why you should usually just take a silver if Taxman is your only option at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png).
Well, I feel like games where the best BM strategy doesn't involve any good cards happen like a few times per 100 games or something like that. Taxman being in the kingdom slightly increases the likelihood of this being the case. I guess it might be around once per 10-20 games with Taxman in them, which definitely means that it's a bad card in general, but I think the number is worse for Scout. (and if it turns out that the number I pulled out of my ass for Taxman is inaccurate, then I think my estimation for Scout is equally inaccurate relative to that)
(http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/3862961.jpg)I don't get it. Is the joke that you can draw Estates then turn them into Gold via Transmute? That sounds like a cute trick (it sounds weak, but still cute).
Edits made: Added Mystic combo, added Ghost Ship and Rabble counters. I also responded to more criticism.You are assuming the deck is of "poor" quality to assign Scout as a counter to Rabble, which may not do anything in a streamlined engine deck. Your personal experience playing BM/slog games really shows if you are concerned with having a counter to Rabble.
I would like someone to debate the fact that Scout doesn't hard counter Rabble.
Once you start greening against the Rabble player, then Scout is excellent.Edits made: Added Mystic combo, added Ghost Ship and Rabble counters. I also responded to more criticism.You are assuming the deck is of "poor" quality to assign Scout as a counter to Rabble, which may not do anything in a streamlined engine deck. Your personal experience playing BM/slog games really shows if you are concerned with having a counter to Rabble.
I would like someone to debate the fact that Scout doesn't hard counter Rabble.
Guys, in all fairness: Roadrunner is, if i understand correctly, usually playing with his family. If this means what i think it does, many of his games are against several opponents, not one. Engines, while still usually the most viable strategy, are quite a bit harder to build in multiplayer games. More players share the same pool of engine parts, meaning that everyone gets less of them, and more attacks hit your deck. Multiplayer games turn into slogs far quicker. The assumption that all games are engine races where you fight over some "split" is just not accurate.Not as many games as it may seem are again multiple opponents. I usually play against my mom, who buys a Province whenever she hits $8. This forces me to green earlier, thus possibly making Scout better in my eyes.
Edit: Which doesn't mean i claim Scout is any good. It just means that "Rabble is not an argument, you're not supposed to have green!" is not a good point.
I usually play against my mom, who buys a Province whenever she hits $8. This forces me to green earlier, thus possibly making Scout better in my eyes.
Okay, I let her get 6 Provinces.I usually play against my mom, who buys a Province whenever she hits $8. This forces me to green earlier, thus possibly making Scout better in my eyes.
If there's a source of +Buy on the board, you should be letting her get the first 5-6 Provinces while continuing to build your engine, then win by snagging all the remaining green in a couple of turns, after she has inevitably stalled.
Okay, I let her get 6 Provinces.I usually play against my mom, who buys a Province whenever she hits $8. This forces me to green earlier, thus possibly making Scout better in my eyes.
If there's a source of +Buy on the board, you should be letting her get the first 5-6 Provinces while continuing to build your engine, then win by snagging all the remaining green in a couple of turns, after she has inevitably stalled.
Now I need 2 Provinces, 8 Duchies and 4 Estates (seeing as she didn't trash her estates). I can totally produce $64 coins and 14 buys in 'a couple of turns.'
Scout doesn't counter Rabble
The Opportunity Cost
All of this ignores the downside of Scout - it takes four coins and a buy just to stick one in your deck, and even then there's no guarantee you'll draw it at the right time. Sure, outside of a big money deck (with dead-draw tendency) it might pass the silver test, but it rarely passes the other-cards-on-the-board-at-similar-prices test. I'd much rather spend a $4 hand on a Village, or a Vagrant, or a Conspirator, or a Sage, or... the list goes on. There are very few times when a Scout would be essential to someone's deck, no matter how helpful it might be otherwise. This is why it's a card that is often reserved for spare $4 buys, which don't often happen. The strategies that really take advantage of the three functions I mentioned earlier are the exceptions, and even then the nature of a game might not allow time to get enough Scouts to make a difference.
Edit: How the heck could I forget gainers? In games with Ironworks or Workshop or something, Scouts get a lot closer to free, so the opportunity cost can get low enough for you to get the small (sometimes not so small) help that Scout gives without having to pass up something more essential. I agree that if the only important pile of $2-4 actions runs out in an engine game with Ironworks and no victory chips, some Scouts should DEFINITELY leave the pile.
Okay, I let her get 6 Provinces.I usually play against my mom, who buys a Province whenever she hits $8. This forces me to green earlier, thus possibly making Scout better in my eyes.
If there's a source of +Buy on the board, you should be letting her get the first 5-6 Provinces while continuing to build your engine, then win by snagging all the remaining green in a couple of turns, after she has inevitably stalled.
Now I need 2 Provinces, 8 Duchies and 4 Estates (seeing as she didn't trash her estates). I can totally produce $64 coins and 14 buys in 'a couple of turns.'
It feels like maybe 1/5 of games (even with Taxman as one of the kingdom cards) tops are BM games, and maybe 1/10 of the ones BM games with Taxman in them don't have anything better, so that's like a 2% gain rate by my estimation. I'd put scout at more like 5%.
I'm still waiting for the board where Coppersmith can do anything good (and you have time to make it work).
I guess on both of these you might be incentivized to buy a scout, no?
I guess on both of these you might be incentivized to buy a scout, no?
No.
My gf and I both made a deck to make Scout work. I guess on both of these you might be incentivized to buy a scout, no?
...
Especially in the first one, I'd find it weird. How would you play on that particular board?
My gf and I both made a deck to make Scout work. I guess on both of these you might be incentivized to buy a scout, no?
...
I wouldn't get Scout in your GF's deck. I'd probably open NV/Jack (maybe NV/Black Market) and go for Native Villages, Rabbles, some Nobles and Goons, hoping for extra Villages and Trashing from the BM. Scout seems not worth it, because I probably would not get enough green cards even with Nobles and some Great Halls (but you rather take Peddlers from spare buys)
Not so sure about the first one. It might be okay here, guess the heart of the deck should be Crossroads/Nobles, though.
[img width=640]http://s23.postimg.org/i6b17cozv/Schermafbeelding_2016_01_18_om_14_11_39.png[/img]
My deck.
[img width=640]http://s27.postimg.org/78q4zqv2b/Schermafbeelding_2016_01_18_om_14_12_39.png[/img]
My girlfriend's deck.
Let me try and be more helpful than Awaclus while still getting less upvotes.
On the first board, your payload is "draw a bunch of cards and play some Storerooms" -- not all that explosive and it might lose to Big Money with the decent-ish enablers here (Warehouse is probably better for big money than it is for something involving Scout). If you want me to buy Scout on this board, throw in some Copper trashing and a bigger payload (the second board has Goons on it, that seems pretty good)
Finally, this may be useful to you:
Mine was, obviously, created with 'let's put everything that works with scout in one deck'.
Mine was, obviously, created with 'let's put everything that works with scout in one deck'.
That's not how it works, though. It doesn't matter how many different cards there are that synergize with Scout's deck ordering ability or the Victory card drawing ability, what matters is that in the dominant strategy that you're already going for regardless of Scout, there must be a reason to expect the top cards of your deck to have a significant amount of Victory cards, there must be a way to significantly benefit from the deck ordering, there must be a way to benefit from the fact that Scout is a non-terminal Action, and there must be a way to gain Scout for no opportunity cost at all.
For the record, yours is the kind of a kingdom where I'd buy Taxman if Scout was Taxman.
I also don't think you are right in saying that all of these need to be present, if some of these are *strongly* present. Given the amount of green cards (and the other card that synergizes with green: crossroads), I'd say that compensates for the lesser importance of 3. (Although that's still possible, if you buy wishingwell/mystic.)
Maybe it helped that it's a colony/platinum game.
For the record, yours is the kind of a kingdom where I'd buy Taxman if Scout was Taxman.
IGG+Coppersmith is like amazing, I can't believe nobody has mentioned that
IGG+Coppersmith is like amazing, I can't believe nobody has mentioned that
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12757.msg533762#msg533762
Let me try and be more helpful than Awaclus while still getting less upvotes.
If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about it
If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about itIf Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.
If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about itIf Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.
At four coins can trip scout is pretty powerfulIf only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about itIf Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.
It would still be weak. :p
What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?
At four coins can trip scout is pretty powerfulIf only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about itIf Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.
It would still be weak. :p
What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?
If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about itIf Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.
It would still be weak. :p
What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?
If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about itIf Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.
It would still be weak. :p
What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?
You mean like Wandering Minstrel?
If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about itIf Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.
It would still be weak. :p
What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?
You mean like Wandering Minstrel?
Scout's effect on a village would still be weaker than Wandering Minstrel. That's how bad Scout is.
If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about itIf Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.
It would still be weak. :p
What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?
You mean like Wandering Minstrel?
Scout's effect on a village would still be weaker than Wandering Minstrel. That's how bad Scout is.
I actually think it would be pretty good. The deck inspection and handsize increase can be very useful, enough that I think it would be competitive with Wandering Minstrel. The comparison with Cartographer even makes me wonder if it should be $5.
Okay, I let her get 6 Provinces.I usually play against my mom, who buys a Province whenever she hits $8. This forces me to green earlier, thus possibly making Scout better in my eyes.
If there's a source of +Buy on the board, you should be letting her get the first 5-6 Provinces while continuing to build your engine, then win by snagging all the remaining green in a couple of turns, after she has inevitably stalled.
Now I need 2 Provinces, 8 Duchies and 4 Estates (seeing as she didn't trash her estates). I can totally produce $64 coins and 14 buys in 'a couple of turns.'
Roadrunner's Response to CriticismThe main thing against scout is that it does less than nothing for your deck. About the only things that make scout worth buying are proccesion on a board without other non-terminals you want to trash and without villages, or scout apothecary with no better option.
Any good card can take criticism, just look at Goon Garden and his brush with King's Court, which is thought to be one of the best kingdom cards in Dominion. So, whenever I find criticism, I will requote it here and counter it with facts and logic.
"I think generally the criticism of Scout sums up in the words 'Opportunity cost.' It only hurts you because it is taking the place of something that would help you more." -Jamfamsam
Thank you, Jamfamsam, for providing a common argument as to why Scout is bad. However, what is there that might help you more? Cards like Sea Hag, JOAT and Remake are generally better than Scout, I will not argue that they are better than Scout. But here's the thing that causes lots of people to disagree with me: I think Scout passes the Silver Test. I don't think Scout's opportunity cost is super high. So the 'Oppurtunity Cost' argument doesn't faze me because it doesn't make sense; Scout doesn't have high Opportunity Cost.
"I would like Roadrunner to first defend the position that Scout passes the Silver test." -JamfamsamTHis whole argument is based on the premise that scout is better than silver at least some notable amt. of time which it isn't.
Thank you again, Jamfamsam, for offering difficult and exciting questions to help keep this thread updated. First, let's talk about how Scout costs $4 and Silver costs $3. If Silver was better than Scout either Scout would be better, Silver would be worse, Silver would cost more or Scout would cost less. There's also the fact that the 'Silver Test' is not only outdated but also made up, Scout and Silver are very different cards. You can't pit cards that do such different things again each other. If there was a Cartographer test, I doubt Scout would pass that. But a Silver test? Really? Silver is sometimes better than Scout, but Silver is also sometimes better than King's Court. If Gold is better than King's Court 90-93% of the time, and Silver is 2/3 as good as Gold, then Silver is better than King's Court 60-61% of the time. But in all seriousness Jamfamsam, I would encourage you to look at the Combos section or Counters section. These will show you cards that when you have a lot of them or when your opponent has a lot of them (for the sake of Counters), Scout will be better than Silver.
"All things considered, Copper is a significantly stronger card than Scout." -EeveeCopper and scout are close but I think scout might be slightly better?
I suspect this is a troll, but I will address it anyway. Eevee, Scout is better than Silver most of the time. Silver is better than Copper most of the time. We know this because of my response right above this one about how Scout passes the Silver Test. So, if we read that, we can say that Scout is almost always better than Copper. But think about it this way: Silver is better than King's Court 60-61% of the time, and Copper is 1/2 as bad as Silver. So Copper is better than King's Court 30-30.5% of the time. This means Scout is better than King's Court at least 30% of the time.
Copper and scout are close but I think scout might be slightly better?
If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about itIf Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.
It would still be weak. :p
What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?
You mean like Wandering Minstrel?
Scout's effect on a village would still be weaker than Wandering Minstrel. That's how bad Scout is.
I actually think it would be pretty good. The deck inspection and handsize increase can be very useful, enough that I think it would be competitive with Wandering Minstrel. The comparison with Cartographer even makes me wonder if it should be $5.
Because they're wrong.Let me try and be more helpful than Awaclus while still getting less upvotes.
Jeez, I didn't think I'd fail on both accounts. Seriously, why (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14594.msg560737#msg560737) aren't these posts (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14594.msg560742#msg560742) getting more upvotes? (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14594.msg560748#msg560748)
Because they're wrong.Let me try and be more helpful than Awaclus while still getting less upvotes.
Jeez, I didn't think I'd fail on both accounts. Seriously, why (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14594.msg560737#msg560737) aren't these posts (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14594.msg560742#msg560742) getting more upvotes? (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14594.msg560748#msg560748)
This has turned into a roast session for Scout, which I don't mind, but it's time for more updates in the OP. Sadly, I actually have work (for once) so that'll have to wait.
I have been googling for something like this, but couldn't find it. Thanks!
Scouty served me well in this game. (http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160122/log.0.1453440329520.txt)
EDITS: Added Inheritance combo, added Golden Decks sections as well as the Golden Deck: Inherited Schemes.
Alms, Expedition, Fool's Gold, Native Village, University, Quarry, Scout, Talisman, Explorer, Adventurer, Farmland, Nobles
Just think, if there was +Buy in the kingdom Scout/NV/Nobles could actually have been the right thing to do.
That's amazing