Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: LastFootnote on January 11, 2016, 11:29:35 pm
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi3Nu9UZon8
This makes me sad in so many ways.
EDIT: I should clarify that it mostly makes me sad because it encourages buying only Treasure and Victory cards. And apart from that it's a mixed bag. There's good advice like "Trash Coppers and Estates" as well as bad advice like "Always buy Gold with $6".
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DID HE SRIOUSLY SAY ALWAYS BUY A PROVINCE WHEN YOU HAVE 8?! APPARENTLY HE HAS ONLY PLAYED THE BASE SET. AND EVEN THEN ITS NOT ALWAYS CORRECT.
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DID HE SRIOUSLY SAY ALWAYS BUY A PROVINCE WHEN YOU HAVE 8?! APPARENTLY HE HAS ONLY PLAYED THE BASE SET. AND EVEN THEN ITS NOT ALWAYS CORRECT.
While not good advice for high-level play, it's a reasonable rule of thumb for newbies that like to overbuild. Though obviously that changes as you get better at building engines. Anyway, I think "Always buy Gold with $6; few cards are better" is significantly worse advice. Also, "Remodel is bad for getting Provinces".
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EDIT: Okay, now I feel bad. He was just trying to help, it's not his fault that he was off. Feel free to disregard the top part of my post, I probably was just venting because we're not having a snow day tomorrow.
Snow days are rare nowadays, at least in my part of the country. They've got the plowing down to a science. The best you can hope for now is a cold day; it's literally so cold that you're likely to get frostbite before you catch the bus.
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EDIT: Okay, now I feel bad. He was just trying to help, it's not his fault that he was off. Feel free to disregard the top part of my post, I probably was just venting because we're not having a snow day tomorrow.
Snow days are rare nowadays, at least in my part of the country. They've got the plowing down to a science. The best you can hope for now is a cold day; it's literally so cold that you're likely to get frostbite before you catch the bus.
You want it to snow at 5-6 AM so that they can't clear all the streets, then they'll call it.
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EDIT: Okay, now I feel bad. He was just trying to help, it's not his fault that he was off. Feel free to disregard the top part of my post, I probably was just venting because we're not having a snow day tomorrow.
Snow days are rare nowadays, at least in my part of the country. They've got the plowing down to a science. The best you can hope for now is a cold day; it's literally so cold that you're likely to get frostbite before you catch the bus.
I miss snowdays. I grew up in New Jersey, but I live in South Texas now. They don't know how to plow snow here though, so school closes at the slightest flurry (which only happens once every other year). On the other hand we walked home from school in over a foot of snow pretty much every winter in New Jersey.
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Snow days are cute. I really loved them when I went to school in Canada.
Our version of snow days was that we didn't have to go outside to play during recess if it was colder than 20 celsius.
In hindsight even that was probably mostly to save the teachers from having to supervise us.
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Snow days are cute. I really loved them when I went to school in Canada.
Our version of snow days was that we didn't have to go outside to play during recess if it was colder than 20 celsius.
In hindsight even that was probably mostly to save the teachers from having to supervise us.
Getting totally off topic, but oh well. Where in Canada did you go to school? To my recollection, I never once had a snow day from school, even with -40 C snowstorm conditions. Unless you mean the no outdoor-recess thing for that, which I've had too. I remember preferring to go outside though.
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It was in Thunder Bay, Ontario. It was my understanding that they'd do it every time the roads were too snowed for the school bus to be able to pick everyone up, so they'd close the school not to deny education from those who lived further out. In Finland we never had off days either, but then again we also don't have school busses so the same condition couldn't be applied.
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Did anyone invite him to F,DS?
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Seriously, if you talk like you spent your college years seeing how much weed you could smoke snort, Youtube is probably not the best place for you.
While this guy may not be super qualified to give Dominion advice, he is certainly more so than you are qualified to give advice on how to spend college.
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It was in Thunder Bay, Ontario. It was my understanding that they'd do it every time the roads were too snowed for the school bus to be able to pick everyone up, so they'd close the school not to deny education from those who lived further out. In Finland we never had off days either, but then again we also don't have school busses so the same condition couldn't be applied.
Ahhh. That makes sense. It's like one of the worst places in Canada (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-LzM9fMS-0). ;)
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it encourages buying only Treasure and Victory cards. And apart from that it's a mixed bag. There's good advice like "Trash Coppers and Estates" as well as bad advice like "Always buy Gold with $6".
That sounds very much like an early Wandering Winder video, though he never placed such an emphasis on trashing.
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I too have some very useful advice: If you have $X, you don't always have to buy a card costing exactly $X.
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The 5 Ways to Win Dominion video is far more skippable than you think.
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it encourages buying only Treasure and Victory cards. And apart from that it's a mixed bag. There's good advice like "Trash Coppers and Estates" as well as bad advice like "Always buy Gold with $6".
That sounds very much like an early Wandering Winder video, though he never placed such an emphasis on trashing.
Come on now
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it encourages buying only Treasure and Victory cards. And apart from that it's a mixed bag. There's good advice like "Trash Coppers and Estates" as well as bad advice like "Always buy Gold with $6".
That sounds very much like an early Wandering Winder video, though he never placed such an emphasis on trashing.
Come on now
What a clever way to get WW back to the forums :)
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What's with all the hostility going on here, guys? If some random person watch this video, and then read these comments (the hostile ones, not the snow ones, you guys are cool), what do yall think they would think of us? There's ways to disagree with someone without coming off as an angry lunch mob, how dare he not be correct on his internet video, if I made an Internet video it would be much more correct rabble rabble rabble.
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KC-Rabble?
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Right now, it's because I'm better at trolling than Dominion. :'(
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Has anyone tried to contact the person with polite comments/criticism regarding his content?
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Adam and I both commented on the video.
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Well, I certainly don't agree with all the points he makes, but I don't find all the toxic reactions here quite fitting. It's a pretty innocent video, aimed for absolute beginners, who, I'll remind you, get beaten quite often by Big Money. Of course this will not make you the 2016 Dominionstrategy.com Champion, but hey, it'll probably spark your opponents to step up their game. I know my father playing BM drew me to this forum, so, there's that.
I didn't quite understand by what he meant with "no 'trash'" though. I thought he referred to Chapel, and he did show Remodel, but he did seem to talk about coppers and estates. That was a bit confusing.
I must say I found the end... Cringe-worthy to say the least.
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"no trash" just means "don't buy junk" I think, don't buy Coppers or Estates (or Remodels?).
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Yeah, that's what I thought in the end. I just thought that beginners might find that confusing ;)
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Also, "Remodel is bad for getting Provinces".
Well to be fair, he said Remodel can't be used to buy Provinces, which is true. ;)
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"no trash" just means "don't buy junk" I think, don't buy Coppers or Estates (or Remodels?).
The point wasn't "don't buy remodels because they are junk". The point was "trash your junk when you can", and "junk includes Remodels after they're done trashing your other junk". Which is wrong, of course.
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"no trash" just means "don't buy junk" I think, don't buy Coppers or Estates (or Remodels?).
The point wasn't "don't buy remodels because they are junk". The point was "trash your junk when you can", and "junk includes Remodels after they're done trashing your other junk". Which is wrong, of course.
Well, also, Remodel isn't much of a junk trasher. More like a gainer. It can trash your starting Estates, yes, but not very efficient for getting rid of Coppers.
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So yeah the video isn't the clearest thing ever, and yeah some of what he says is actually bad advice. Someone watching that video could be confused or led to believe that some bad ideas are actually good ideas. What can we do about that?
Option 1: give him constructive and encouraging criticism, designed to show him the vast world of Dominion that's out there and get him to not only get better at and more into the game, but potentially continue to make Dominion-related content.
Option 2: Make fun of not only the video, but the person making the video, on our forums that he doesn't know about.
There are more options, but I'm trying to make a point. Does anyone see the point? This thread comes off as really, really elitist.
EDIT: It was also reply #3 and less than an hour before this thread was completely off-topic. Attempts to bring it back are much more difficult. There is a productive discussion to be had here, explaining to someone of this guy's experience level (I dunno, maybe he'll read this thread? That would be embarrassing) why his advice isn't good?
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So yeah the video isn't the clearest thing ever, and yeah some of what he says is actually bad advice. Someone watching that video could be confused or led to believe that some bad ideas are actually good ideas. What can we do about that?
Option 1: give him constructive and encouraging criticism, designed to show him the vast world of Dominion that's out there and get him to not only get better at and more into the game, but potentially continue to make Dominion-related content.
Option 2: Make fun of not only the video, but the person making the video, on our forums that he doesn't know about.
There are more options, but I'm trying to make a point. Does anyone see the point? This thread comes off as really, really elitist.
EDIT: It was also reply #3 and less than an hour before this thread was completely off-topic. Attempts to bring it back are much more difficult. There is a productive discussion to be had here, explaining to someone of this guy's experience level (I dunno, maybe he'll read this thread? That would be embarrassing) why his advice isn't good?
I'm going to completely agree with you on this one. Though it really seemed like mostly just 1 reply, not the whole forum jumping on him. Roadrunner already apologized for what he said in an edit, but yeah, his post was way uncalled for.
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EDIT: Okay, now I feel bad. He was just trying to help, it's not his fault that he was off. Feel free to disregard the top part of my post, I probably was just venting because we're not having a snow day tomorrow.
Snow days are rare nowadays, at least in my part of the country. They've got the plowing down to a science. The best you can hope for now is a cold beer; it's literally so cold that you're likely to get frostbite before you catch the bus.
FTFY
I also find Roadrunner's post way too aggressive.
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His similar "5 ways to win" videos for Power Grid and Race for the Galaxy both seem to have good advice, though clearly aimed at beginners.
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Yep, I'm the infamous post #3. I was told (by LastFootNote, actually) to not delete posts, but I'm breaking that rule. I don't need that post to clog up the forum, it's not worth the extra 0.000001 second that it takes F.DS to load because of an additional post.
And not only did I unnecessarily bite into that guy, I also dragged the thread off topic. So that's two strikes.
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Well, I'm not sure what I intended when I posted it here, but I'm glad that any ripping into the video happened here instead of over at BGG, where I crossposted from.
I appreciate the guy's intent, and I'm fine with him giving advice that helps novice players even if it's bad advice in the very long term. What I'm not OK with is him telling novice players to build Treasure-only decks and ruin the game for everybody.
EDIT: I no longer appreciate his intent; see below.
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Geez, I just noticed the guy rated Dominion a 4/10 in his profile. He likes FLUXX better than Dominion. To him Dominion is just fodder for his series of "5 Ways to Win" videos. I wish he'd stick to games he likes and knows well.
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Geez, I just noticed the guy rated Dominion a 4/10 in his profile. He likes FLUXX better than Dominion. To him Dominion is just fodder for his series of "5 Ways to Win" videos. I wish he'd stick to games he likes and knows well.
Challenge him to a Dominion match so that he can start a "5 Ways to Lose" series afterwards.
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I can't find the original right now, but someone point him to Wandering Winder's five deck archetypes article(s). There's five real ways to win Dominion.
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Geez, I just noticed the guy rated Dominion a 4/10 in his profile. He likes FLUXX better than Dominion. To him Dominion is just fodder for his series of "5 Ways to Win" videos. I wish he'd stick to games he likes and knows well.
You can share information about a game without personally enjoying the game or rating it highly. That doesn't excuse _incorrect_ information, but I don't think his rating of the game is relevant to whether the video has issues or not.
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Geez, I just noticed the guy rated Dominion a 4/10 in his profile. He likes FLUXX better than Dominion. To him Dominion is just fodder for his series of "5 Ways to Win" videos. I wish he'd stick to games he likes and knows well.
You can share information about a game without personally enjoying the game or rating it highly. That doesn't excuse _incorrect_ information, but I don't think his rating of the game is relevant to whether the video has issues or not.
I think there's a strong correlation. I would not attempt to give strategy advice about Ticket to Ride because I don't like or play it enough to be an authority.
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Giving good strategy advice requires thorough study of a game.
Someone who gave Dominion a 4 is unlikely to have played it enough to have made a thorough study. Or even a cursory study. If I rated something a 4, I've only played it once.
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He may also have rated Dominion low because he doesn't fully understand it.
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Here's my 5 ways to win Twilight Struggle:
- Win by having the most VP after final scoring
- Degrade DEFCON to 1 on your opponent's turn
- Control Europe when it's being scored
- Get to 20 VP
- Win the Space Race
The last is actually false, but it would be fun if there was more incentive to space things other than making sure the event doesn't trigger this turn.
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I feel like he could've given me any advice, good or bad, if he had actually bothered to learn the correct terms. I mean, don't say the word "trash" if it's a game term; why would you switch the terms for Treasure and coin? The two most confusing things for people I've shown the game are distinguishing between coins and Treasures and remembering the difference between discarding and trashing; my dad has played countless games with me over the years and he still occasionally mixes up trashing and discarding
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He may also have rated Dominion low because he doesn't fully understand it.
Well, that argument is equally (in)valid for all cases where somebody rates a game different than you do. You can't know until you ask him what he didn't like about Dominion. If he answers "there's a dominant strategy", "Silver is OP" or "Village is useless" then your point most likely stands. Maybe he just doesn't like shuffling, downtime, learning cards by heart, and plays mostly 4p boardgames.
Anyway, I think one should at least respect, if not like, a game before giving strategy advice for it, and a rating of 4 doesn't show much respect (might actually do according to his rating habits, anyway).
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That video made me sad.
The fact that he inflicts such blasphemy on people who might consider him as an authority is not nice at all.
You don't necessarily need to be Mic Qsenoch to teach people how to play Dominion, but from what he is saying he isn't even close to being a Dominion player of any competence.
That's just misleading and disrespectful to the game and to people IMHO.
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He may also have rated Dominion low because he doesn't fully understand it.
Well, that argument is equally (in)valid for all cases where somebody rates a game different than you do. You can't know until you ask him what he didn't like about Dominion. If he answers "there's a dominant strategy", "Silver is OP" or "Village is useless" then your point most likely stands. Maybe he just doesn't like shuffling, downtime, learning cards by heart, and plays mostly 4p boardgames.
Anyway, I think one should at least respect, if not like, a game before giving strategy advice for it, and a rating of 4 doesn't show much respect (might actually do according to his rating habits, anyway).
Hmm.. what I mean, is, (from what I've read here) he emphasized the strength of big money over other strategies and missed the utility of a Remodel-type card. I think if any of us thought the game was, for instance, simply imbalanced towards money strategies being dominant (or even one single strategy), then we wouldn't consider it a good game.
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I don't think all his advice is bad. Removing useless cards is a good idea, and it's true that you need your deck to actually produce some income, not just chain cards for nothing. Also, always buying Gold for $6 is a strategy that can lead you to victory, especially with just Base.
The main problem of the video are the words he uses, as those make it appear as if he had no idea what he was talking about. "Trash cards" is misleading (first i thought he meant "Don't use trashers, they stink!"), and "money cards" as well as "infinite turns" carry the odor of grave misconception. He wwouldn't be the first to think you discard cards immediately after playing them.
Of course it's no crime to get the rules or expressions of a game wrong. Just, when you claim you can give great advice about something, expect people to criticize you if you don't live up to it.
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Here's my 5 ways to win Twilight Struggle:
- Win by having the most VP after final scoring
- Degrade DEFCON to 1 on your opponent's turn
- Control Europe when it's being scored
- Get to 20 VP
- Win the Space Race
The last is actually false, but it would be fun if there was more incentive to space things other than making sure the event doesn't trigger this turn.
You forgot one, play the 'How about a nice game of chess?' card when you are more than 10 points ahead. 8)
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Here's my 5 ways to win Twilight Struggle:
- Win by having the most VP after final scoring
- Degrade DEFCON to 1 on your opponent's turn
- Control Europe when it's being scored
- Get to 20 VP
- Win the Space Race
The last is actually false, but it would be fun if there was more incentive to space things other than making sure the event doesn't trigger this turn.
You forgot one, play the 'How about a nice game of chess?' card when you are more than 10 points ahead. 8)
6 points, actually. There are also more obscure ways to win, such as 'getting your opponent to hold a scoring card' and 'make your opponent coup while under Cuban Missile Crisis. I think that's all of them.
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Here's my 5 ways to win Twilight Struggle:
- Win by having the most VP after final scoring
- Degrade DEFCON to 1 on your opponent's turn
- Control Europe when it's being scored
- Get to 20 VP
- Win the Space Race
The last is actually false, but it would be fun if there was more incentive to space things other than making sure the event doesn't trigger this turn.
You forgot one, play the 'How about a nice game of chess?' card when you are more than 10 points ahead. 8)
6 points, actually. There are also more obscure ways to win, such as 'getting your opponent to hold a scoring card' and 'make your opponent coup while under Cuban Missile Crisis. I think that's all of them.
Guess I haven't played in a while, thought it was 10 lol
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Isn't there something about the Queen of Hearts? I remember that from some game I played....
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Here's my 5 ways to win Twilight Struggle:
- Win by having the most VP after final scoring
- Degrade DEFCON to 1 on your opponent's turn
- Control Europe when it's being scored
- Get to 20 VP
- Win the Space Race
The last is actually false, but it would be fun if there was more incentive to space things other than making sure the event doesn't trigger this turn.
You forgot one, play the 'How about a nice game of chess?' card when you are more than 10 points ahead. 8)
6 points, actually. There are also more obscure ways to win, such as 'getting your opponent to hold a scoring card' and 'make your opponent coup while under Cuban Missile Crisis. I think that's all of them.
Guess I haven't played in a while, thought it was 10 lol
To be fair, Davio never said those were the only 5 ways.
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Haven't been playing long enough to notice the ones triggered by specific cards like Wargames.
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The only way to win is not to play.
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This thread died the death it deserved, but I would like to point out that I (as well as others before me) commented on the video offering constructive criticism. He replied to me (and no one else, which is painfully ironic). Apparently he made the video for his 10 year old nephew who enjoyed Dominion. Then he went on to explain that Dominion is a game that is good for small children and he usually plays only when children are present. I decided not to sharpen my tongue, but man, his comment made me realize that he's not all that credible. He also talked about how he didn't want to buy expansions because of the cost, which I can sympathize with.
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it seems like a great website for its audience, very in depth and detailed. Also very advanced. I imagined I was looking at the website as someone who's never played Dominion before and it could seem overwhelming. If I told my friends to read that website before coming to my house to play, they probably wouldn't make it to my house.
Constructive criticism of our forums? I know the articles sub-board hasn't been organized in quite some time. Finding the really good articles is really hard to do.
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it seems like a great website for its audience, very in depth and detailed. Also very advanced. I imagined I was looking at the website as someone who's never played Dominion before and it could seem overwhelming. If I told my friends to read that website before coming to my house to play, they probably wouldn't make it to my house.
Constructive criticism of our forums? I know the articles sub-board hasn't been organized in quite some time. Finding the really good articles is really hard to do.
I suspect that pointing people at the Wiki might be better? I don't know. It's entirely valid, though. Strategy articles no longer make it to the blog, and most people, in the first couple years, would see the blog first.
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it seems like a great website for its audience, very in depth and detailed. Also very advanced. I imagined I was looking at the website as someone who's never played Dominion before and it could seem overwhelming. If I told my friends to read that website before coming to my house to play, they probably wouldn't make it to my house.
Constructive criticism of our forums? I know the articles sub-board hasn't been organized in quite some time. Finding the really good articles is really hard to do.
I suspect that pointing people at the Wiki might be better? I don't know. It's entirely valid, though. Strategy articles no longer make it to the blog, and most people, in the first couple years, would see the blog first.
I can only speak for myself, but the Wiki is what got me here in the first place. Which is supposed to say, i agree, the Wiki is a better starting point.
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I olny came here after reading every single article on the wiki. :)
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Well, all of that definitely explains why his content in the video is subpar advice.