Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: eHalcyon on November 16, 2015, 09:00:10 pm
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Factory
$4 - Action-Reaction
+1 Buy
Gain a card costing up to $4.
When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash that card. If you did trash the card, +$ equal to its cost.
Wording is a bit awkward to prevent infinite coin from revealing it repeatedly to a single gain. Any suggestions to improve it?
If you have two in hand, you can play one for +$4 instead of gaining a card. +1 Buy means you could also spend the gained coin to buy another copy of the same card, with a net result of trashing an extra copy of it to lower piles quickly.
The reaction can be used with other gainers (Rats!), and there is a significant combo with Fortress. The reaction also provides Watchtower-like protection against junkers.
In the absence of big combos, it's hardly better than Workshop. Even when used with itself, it's only a small bonus if you don't have extra actions (two Factories just get you +$4, +1 Buy, which isn't much better than +$4 from two Silvers).
Thoughts?
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I like it, but I think it has some unintended consequences.
With enough coin to buy 1 copy, and enough buys to buy out a pile, you can insta-pile anything (except potion costs). Buy something, trash it to this, then buy the next one. It will make for an unexpectedly quick empty province pile.
You probably need some errata about coins on other player's turns, just in case Embassy or Messenger is on the board (or even Ambassador).
The rats combo is crazy good, and it makes cards like University, Altar, and Ironworks extremely good, and Jack of All Trades even better. It also works very well with Remodel and its ilk, turning it into pure trashing plus bonus coin.
I like the concept, but I think this is a little too powerful. That being said, playtesting will usually give you the best answers.
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This is cool. I wonder how powerful it is with things like Border Village, or other stuff with on-buy and on-gain.
Also, I agree with mustang255. I think you might have to make it discard instead of just reveal, so that you can't use the same card repeatedly. With things like Market Square and Pawn and Hamlet, it's not that hard to get lots of extra buys.
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"...gain a card other than from buying it..."
or
"...gain a card in your action phase..."?
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"...gain a card other than from buying it..."
or
"...gain a card in your action phase..."?
I don't like this... then it doesn't do anything unless you get 2 of them, or there's another gainer.
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"...gain a card other than from buying it..."
or
"...gain a card in your action phase..."?
I don't like this... then it doesn't do anything unless you get 2 of them, or there's another gainer.
Because it loses gaining and trashing effects in your buy phase?
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I like it, but I think it has some unintended consequences.
With enough coin to buy 1 copy, and enough buys to buy out a pile, you can insta-pile anything (except potion costs). Buy something, trash it to this, then buy the next one. It will make for an unexpectedly quick empty province pile.
You probably need some errata about coins on other player's turns, just in case Embassy or Messenger is on the board (or even Ambassador).
The rats combo is crazy good, and it makes cards like University, Altar, and Ironworks extremely good, and Jack of All Trades even better. It also works very well with Remodel and its ilk, turning it into pure trashing plus bonus coin.
I like the concept, but I think this is a little too powerful. That being said, playtesting will usually give you the best answers.
I think the insta-pile thing is OK, because it does require getting enough +Buy, which isn't trivial and (usually) not particularly useful for actually winning the game. It's certainly possible with certain cards, but I think the investment needed to get there is enough to make this powerful pile control feel earned rather than broken.
Put it another way -- I feel like this kind of combo is at least as difficult to pull off as a Bridge or Highway mega-turn, but significantly less powerful.
That said, if testing did show it to be too powerful a combo, Gendo's suggestion of making it a discard-reaction would be a possible fix. Or in a compromise, maybe there is some wording that could make it a reveal-reaction normally but discard-reaction during your Buy phase that isn't too ugly.
Unfortunately, I don't really have the ability to test, but maybe this idea will inspire those who do. :)
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This is not anymore damaging to pile control than Peddler. Much less dangerous than Peddler.
It's a really good card. Do to the whole situation with Workshop being a weak 3 and things that are strictly better than it needing to be 4, it's hard to suggest any changes regarding price or effect.
Only thing possible to improve is that wording. Maybe, ".. You may reveal this. If you do, trash the gained card and gain +$ equal to its cost in coins when you trash it."
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If you don't mind losing the trashing aspect, you could also word it as:
"When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead receive +$ equal to the card's cost in coins."
Then you don't get to reveal multiple times (since reacting once stops you from gaining the card), and you don't trash the card (so you don't get the pile control effect), but otherwise it should all work as intended.
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This is not anymore damaging to pile control than Peddler. Much less dangerous than Peddler.
Peddler still requires you to empty two other piles. With this, you can just empty the Provinces.
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If you don't mind losing the trashing aspect, you could also word it as:
"When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead receive +$ equal to the card's cost in coins."
Then you don't get to reveal multiple times (since reacting once stops you from gaining the card), and you don't trash the card (so you don't get the pile control effect), but otherwise it should all work as intended.
I forgot about this! This was my original version, but I opted for the trashing version instead because I thought the pile control was neat, including the potential for a +Buy-fueled sudden game end. Is amassing +Buy really so trivial? And in those cases where it's easier than usual (e.g. Market Square), is it really any more dangerous or bad for the game than a combo like MS-Apprentice or various Bridge mega-turns?
A new idea -- instead of giving +$ equal to the cost, how about +$ and coin tokens equal to half the cost (rounded down)? This buffs the card overall, but prevents all-out pile-driving because the amount of spendable coin goes down with each iteration. Making it entirely coin tokens would take it even further. However, I did like the original version for not requiring any special components, and there is a danger of making it too powerful in the general case.
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"...gain a card other than from buying it..."
or
"...gain a card in your action phase..."?
I don't like this... then it doesn't do anything unless you get 2 of them, or there's another gainer.
Because it loses gaining and trashing effects in your buy phase?
Right, your buy phase is the most common time you gain anything. Without allowing you to use the ability in stuff you buy, it becomes usually just a Workshop with +buy.
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You probably need some errata about coins on other player's turns, just in case Embassy or Messenger is on the board (or even Ambassador).
I think it's better if Factory simply says "When you gain a card during your turn, ...".
It just doesn't feel right that this should be used to avoid getting Curses and other bad stuff just like that.
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You probably need some errata about coins on other player's turns, just in case Embassy or Messenger is on the board (or even Ambassador).
I think it's better if Factory simply says "When you gain a card during your turn, ...".
It just doesn't feel right that this should be used to avoid getting Curses and other bad stuff just like that.
Why not? It's less flexible than Watchtower for that and gives it a little more utility while requiring fewer words. That's a fine nerf if it's too strong though.
As for errata, I think that's already got precedence with Caravan Guard (+$1 outside of your turn is as useless as +1 action). Yeah, Caravan Guard card has clarification on it, but I don't think it's strictly necessary.
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You probably need some errata about coins on other player's turns, just in case Embassy or Messenger is on the board (or even Ambassador).
I think it's better if Factory simply says "When you gain a card during your turn, ...".
It just doesn't feel right that this should be used to avoid getting Curses and other bad stuff just like that.
Why not? It's less flexible than Watchtower for that and gives it a little more utility while requiring fewer words. That's a fine nerf if it's too strong though.
As for errata, I think that's already got precedence with Caravan Guard (+$1 outside of your turn is as useless as +1 action). Yeah, Caravan Guard card has clarification on it, but I don't think it's strictly necessary.
I agree, no problem with getting coins when it's not your turn. You just wouldn't have a chance to use them.
Though, that does make me think that maybe there could be a reaction which lets you buy a card on another player's turn.
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Though, that does make me think that maybe there could be a reaction which lets you buy a card on another player's turn.
Or rather gain them. The Reaction Insta-Smuggler!
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8 buys and 8$? 16 total resources? And a 4$ terminal in hand and a 1VP lead? Man you earned it.
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8 buys and 8$? 16 total resources? And a 4$ terminal in hand and a 1VP lead? Man you earned it.
Actually a lead of -5 is enough, since you don't have to trash the last one.
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8 buys and 8$? 16 total resources? And a 4$ terminal in hand and a 1VP lead? Man you earned it.
Actually a lead of -5 is enough, since you don't have to trash the last one.
Sorry, yeah, my mistake, the spirit of my point that you have no fewere Provinces than your opponent in spite of your durdling with +buys still stands. Chaining Worker's Villages isn't going to generate a VP lead unless there are Peddlers.
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8 buys and 8$? 16 total resources? And a 4$ terminal in hand and a 1VP lead? Man you earned it.
Actually a lead of -5 is enough, since you don't have to trash the last one.
Sorry, yeah, my mistake, the spirit of my point that you have no fewere Provinces than your opponent in spite of your durdling with +buys still stands. Chaining Worker's Villages isn't going to generate a VP lead unless there are Peddlers.
The more your opponent has Provinces, the less buys you need. It's not uncommon to have 4 buys when there are 4 Provices in the supply, for instance.
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8 buys and 8$? 16 total resources? And a 4$ terminal in hand and a 1VP lead? Man you earned it.
Actually a lead of -5 is enough, since you don't have to trash the last one.
Sorry, yeah, my mistake, the spirit of my point that you have no fewere Provinces than your opponent in spite of your durdling with +buys still stands. Chaining Worker's Villages isn't going to generate a VP lead unless there are Peddlers.
Peddlers won't help actually; they'll just cost $0 during the buy phase.
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The only nerf I would put on the reaction is to make it 'When you gain a card that is not a victory card.'
It is frequently used on real cards and it fixes the whole province emptying problem.
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The only nerf I would put on the reaction is to make it 'When you gain a card that is not a victory card.'
It is frequently used on real cards and it fixes the whole province emptying problem.
That's an excellent idea! The main things lost are interaction with Feodum and Farmland, which isn't bad.
I'm still not convinced Province-piling is an issue (I agree with pops; and even though it gets easier to pile out as the Province pile gets lower, it means you are probably further behind since you just loaded up on +Buy while your opponent likely has the bigger point lead) but it's no big deal to drop the reaction to VP cards. This also keeps Watchtower as a stronger defense, since Factory would be unable to block Estates from, say, Ambassador or Swindler.
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Market Square/Factory is crazy. Not only does it make getting the buys easy, it also reacts to the trashing and Factory in turn reacts to the Gold gain. And well, Factory can pick up Market Squares.
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The only nerf I would put on the reaction is to make it 'When you gain a card that is not a victory card.'
It is frequently used on real cards and it fixes the whole province emptying problem.
That's an excellent idea! The main things lost are interaction with Feodum and Farmland, which isn't bad.
I'm still not convinced Province-piling is an issue (I agree with pops; and even though it gets easier to pile out as the Province pile gets lower, it means you are probably further behind since you just loaded up on +Buy while your opponent likely has the bigger point lead) but it's no big deal to drop the reaction to VP cards. This also keeps Watchtower as a stronger defense, since Factory would be unable to block Estates from, say, Ambassador or Swindler.
Watchtower is already a stronger defense because if you know you have a Baron in your next hand, you can use it to put the Estate on top of your deck.
If you go for obscure edge cases, go all the way!
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Market Square/Factory is crazy. Not only does it make getting the buys easy, it also reacts to the trashing and Factory in turn reacts to the Gold gain. And well, Factory can pick up Market Squares.
Crazy in a good way though, right? I don't think it would be more powerful than Hermit-MS.