Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: Destry on October 16, 2015, 03:40:39 pm
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The debt mechanic (and wording from Mountain Pass) makes this work a bit better.
Black Market Auction
Cost: (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/5d/Coin0.png/16px-Coin0.png)
Type: Event
+1 Buy
If this is the first buy of your turn, reveal the top card of the Black Market deck. If you did, after this turn, each player bids once, up to 40(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png), ending with you. If no one bids at least 1(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png), put the card on the bottom of the Black Market deck. Highest bidder gains the card and takes the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png) they bid.
-- previous version --
Black Market Auction
Cost: (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png)
Type: Action
+2 Action
Reveal the top card of the black market deck. Once around, starting and ending with the current player and in turn order, each player may bid a number. If no one bids at least 1, you trash the card. Highest bidder gains the card to hand and each other player take Coin Tokens equal to the number bid by the winning player.
I'm not sure the best way to price this. Most of the cost comes from winning the auction, though the player who plays this card does get some advantages.
-- original --
Black Market Auction
Cost: (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png)
Type: Action
+2 Action
Reveal the top card of the black market deck. Once around, starting and ending with the current player and in turn order, each player may bid Coin Tokens. If no one bids at least 1 Coin Token, you trash the card. The player who wins the bid gains revealed card in hand and each other player gains the number of Coin Tokens bid by the winning player.
rephrased to remove confusion about Coin tokens
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I think Black Market auction should give you
+I action
Take a coin token
Instead of two actions. That way, if there are no cards from Guilds on the board, you can still use Black Market auction as something better than a Necropolis. And you might want to rename it just 'auction,' Black Market Auction is a mouthful.
I like the idea though.
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Coin tokens could be awkward with people not always having any coin tokens available to bid. Maybe you should bid by offering to suffer Curse or Ruins gains, since that's a cost anyone is able to handle at any time?
Or start everyone with 20 VP chips and let them bid VP.
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First of all, I think it is a great and bold idea to introduce a card with an auction mechanism into the game.
Second, one problem I see is that while the card increases the total number of Coin tokens held by all players and thus functions as a Coin token gainer it doesn't kickstart itself, i.e. without another card that provides Coin tokens it is dead. So perhaps you might wanna add the setup modification of Baker to it such that every player does at least have one Coin token.
Third, the other problem I see is that, unless there are other Coin token gaining cards, the scale for the auction is not fine enough: at least in the beginning 1 token will often suffice to win the auction and even later in the game players will probably not have a lot of Coin tokens available.
With 4 players Black Market Auction might suffice though as a Coin token "amplifier". Suppose everybody has a Coin token after setup, then 1 is spent and 3 are distributed so we have a total of 6. Suppose next time the card is played somebody spends 2 and 6 are distributed and now we have a total of 10 and so on.
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without another card that provides Coin tokens it is dead
People keep saying this, but I don't see how?
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without another card that provides Coin tokens it is dead
People keep saying this, but I don't see how?
Because "bidding coin tokens" means you have to have coin tokens, in the English sense.
I see now the intent here may be that having your opponents gain coin tokens is supposed to be the only impact, not losing coin tokens. If this is the case, the card should say "bid a number", since you aren't bidding coin tokens in your possession.
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without another card that provides Coin tokens it is dead
People keep saying this, but I don't see how?
I'm confused by this as well. Are you reading this as saying the winner of the bid provides the coin tokens? The coin tokens come from the supply of coin tokens, which can be represented by anything, such as pennies, etc if you don't already have them.
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without another card that provides Coin tokens it is dead
People keep saying this, but I don't see how?
Because "bidding coin tokens" means you have to have coin tokens, in the English sense.
I see now the intent here may be that having your opponents gain coin tokens is supposed to be the only impact, not losing coin tokens. If this is the case, the card should say "bid a number", since you aren't bidding coin tokens in your possession.
Can you suggest a better way to phrase it? I tried bid a number above.
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without another card that provides Coin tokens it is dead
People keep saying this, but I don't see how?
Because "bidding coin tokens" means you have to have coin tokens, in the English sense.
I see now the intent here may be that having your opponents gain coin tokens is supposed to be the only impact, not losing coin tokens. If this is the case, the card should say "bid a number", since you aren't bidding coin tokens in your possession.
Can you suggest a better way to phrase it? I tried bid a number above.
How do you win the very first bid?
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I like the idea, but A) I think the benefit is too small. It should in some way help you for the auction that you're the one playing BMA, or I'll have little reason to play it at all. B) Something needs to be done about ties.
Both could be merged by letting the player whose turn it is break ties. That's political, but I think the card is very political already, so maybe that's not too bad.
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A) The person playing BMA gets two bids, the first and last, as opposed to one. Seems like a significant advantage, maybe too much.
B) I see your point about ties. Rephrasing to "Highest bidder..." to indicate ties aren't allowed.
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How about this?
Reveal the top card of the Black Market deck. The initial bid is 0. Starting with the player to your left, each player either passes or bids a higher number than the last. The player with the highest bid takes the revealed card and each other player takes coin tokens equal to the bid number. If every player passes, trash the card.
Note, the player who played the card no longer gets the first bid, but it should play out almost exactly the same. I mean, I can think of cases where it matters, but it wouldn't be often.
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Ah, I didn't read the card completely I guess.
The whole bidding process still doesn't sit right with me. It's nothing you do in Dominion, you know? Of course you can introduce it, but I'd rather do something with established mechanics. How about something more Tournament-like:
Reveal the top card of the black market deck. Every player may set aside a card from their hand face down. Every player who did reveals the set aside card. If any player revealed a card with a greater value in coins than any of the other set aside cards, he gains the revealed card from the Black Market deck. All players discard their set aside card.
It also makes things less political by having everyone bid at the same time.
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On a board with no cards that provide coin tokens, how does one win the very first bid?
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On a board with no cards that provide coin tokens, how does one win the very first bid?
By saying any number. You say a number, and whoever has the highest number gains the card, all others gain [that number] coin tokens. You don't need the tokens to place a bid because it's inflation.
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On a board with no cards that provide coin tokens, how does one win the very first bid?
By saying any number. You say a number, and whoever has the highest number gains the card, all others gain [that number] coin tokens. You don't need the tokens to place a bid because it's inflation.
Oh wow. I completely read the caard wrong.
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Really inflation is also a thing to be worried about. This card will speed up the game. Giving everyone a vast supply of coin tokens can have serious impact on the game. I think it's better to slow down the game a bit.
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Ah, I didn't read the card completely I guess.
The whole bidding process still doesn't sit right with me. It's nothing you do in Dominion, you know? Of course you can introduce it, but I'd rather do something with established mechanics. How about something more Tournament-like:
Reveal the top card of the black market deck. Every player may set aside a card from their hand face down. Every player who did reveals the set aside card. If any player revealed a card with a greater value in coins than any of the other set aside cards, he gains the revealed card from the Black Market deck. All players discard their set aside card.
It also makes things less political by having everyone bid at the same time.
A card with Black Market's mechanic didn't exist when it first came out. Why should a fan card be constrained to mechanics that currently exist in the game?
That said, I like the idea of an auction mechanic where everyone bids at the same time.
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How does this work with Possession? There's an incentive to bid arbitrarily high if you can use an opponent's coin tokens.
I play Possession. On your turn, you play BMA, revealing Pearl Diver. You bid one billion coin tokens. I pass.
Even if we disallow a Possessing player from choosing the Possessed's bid:
I play BMA, revealing Pearl Diver. I bid X. You bid Y. I bid 1 billion + Y. I play Possession. On your turn, you buy (for my benefit) a Province/Colony for every buy your deck can generate.
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A card with Black Market's mechanic didn't exist when it first came out. Why should a fan card be constrained to mechanics that currently exist in the game?
I agree with you as a general principle. However, there is something to be said for the fact that auction isn't just a mechanic you can do with cards, it's a board game mechanic as a whole. Like deck-building, worker placement, or area control. Auction games are a different type of game in general than deck-building games, though of course one could make a game that combines the 2 mechanics. It's just that adding in an auction mechanic does in some ways change the type of game you're playing; more-so than new card mechanics do.
Doesn't mean it's automatically a bad idea, just something to consider.
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Possession is a troublesome case. Maybe I need to reword it so the players who do not gain the card take the Coin Tokens.
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Why not have the player who wins the auction having to spend the Coin tokens? Sure, it runs into the issue of too few Coin tokens at the beginning of the game but it does not lead to such a quick explosion of Coin tokens.
For example in a three player game the net increase of total Coin tokens after bidding is twice the bidden amount whereas in the 'pay for your bid' version it is only the bidden amount (one guy pays x, two guys get x).
The problem of the 'pay for your bid' version is player sensitivity, that this card does not lead to an increase of Coin tokens in a two player game so you could use Roadrunner's version which provides a Coin token.
So, yeah, you might wanna play around with some different mechanics
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Since it's not truly a bid, maybe you could drop the word "bid" entirely. "Reveal the top card of the Black Market deck. Each player, starting and ending with you, chooses a number. If no one chose a positive number, trash the revealed card. Otherwise, the first player to choose a whole number tied for the largest gains the revealed card. If she does, each other player takes that many coin tokens."
A funny thing with this card is that it's possible a card is so good that the last player is gonna take it no matter what, so everyone bids like, 1 million, because every buy being a Province for the rest of the game is about equal to a throneroomable possession or whatever :)
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A funny thing with this card is that it's possible a card is so good that the last player is gonna take it no matter what, so everyone bids like, 1 million, because every buy being a Province for the rest of the game is about equal to a throneroomable possession or whatever :)
Another possibility is that the game can end in this move, and the card is a card that can determine wins (like a valuable Fairgrounds for example). That could also create a situation where it's all about naming as high a number as possible which isn't good.
I think the auction could work if instead you bid on how many VPs all the other players should get.
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A funny thing with this card is that it's possible a card is so good that the last player is gonna take it no matter what, so everyone bids like, 1 million, because every buy being a Province for the rest of the game is about equal to a throneroomable possession or whatever :)
Another possibility is that the game can end in this move, and the card is a card that can determine wins (like a valuable Fairgrounds for example). That could also create a situation where it's all about naming as high a number as possible which isn't good.
I think the auction could work if instead you bid on how many VPs all the other players should get.
VP cards are a little annoying. I'm not sure whether it's better to accept them being screwy from time to time or add even more words to the card for some kind of VP clause.
It's reasonably likely that in practice you'll be able to remember when the VP card is gonnna come up the second time through the deck, so there's some amount of player control over it? And if you're ahead you can bid reasonably hard on the VP card the first time you see it earlier on? Needs testing
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And you might want to rename it just 'auction,' Black Market Auction is a mouthful.
"Black Auction"
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ಠ_ಠ
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A funny thing with this card is that it's possible a card is so good that the last player is gonna take it no matter what, so everyone bids like, 1 million, because every buy being a Province for the rest of the game is about equal to a throneroomable possession or whatever :)
Another possibility is that the game can end in this move, and the card is a card that can determine wins (like a valuable Fairgrounds for example). That could also create a situation where it's all about naming as high a number as possible which isn't good.
I think the auction could work if instead you bid on how many VPs all the other players should get.
I don't think this is a problem since the auction only goes for 1 round. The person who played the card, who bids last, just automatically wins.
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A funny thing with this card is that it's possible a card is so good that the last player is gonna take it no matter what, so everyone bids like, 1 million, because every buy being a Province for the rest of the game is about equal to a throneroomable possession or whatever :)
Another possibility is that the game can end in this move, and the card is a card that can determine wins (like a valuable Fairgrounds for example). That could also create a situation where it's all about naming as high a number as possible which isn't good.
I think the auction could work if instead you bid on how many VPs all the other players should get.
I don't think this is a problem since the auction only goes for 1 round. The person who played the card, who bids last, just automatically wins.
I don't think he was worried about an infinite bidding loop, he's just saying 10 point Fairgrounds comes up for auction, player 1 bids 1 coin, player 2 bids three million coins, player three bid three billion coins, player four bids four googol coins, player 1 bids five googol coins. And that that's a little carazy. But I don't think it's an awful carazy, I think it will be rare and often be ambiguous whether the strong card is worth going full tilt like that or not, and that it's not the worst thing ever even when it does happen.
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A funny thing with this card is that it's possible a card is so good that the last player is gonna take it no matter what, so everyone bids like, 1 million, because every buy being a Province for the rest of the game is about equal to a throneroomable possession or whatever :)
Another possibility is that the game can end in this move, and the card is a card that can determine wins (like a valuable Fairgrounds for example). That could also create a situation where it's all about naming as high a number as possible which isn't good.
I think the auction could work if instead you bid on how many VPs all the other players should get.
I don't think this is a problem since the auction only goes for 1 round. The person who played the card, who bids last, just automatically wins.
I don't think he was worried about an infinite bidding loop, he's just saying 10 point Fairgrounds comes up for auction, player 1 bids 1 coin, player 2 bids three million coins, player three bid three billion coins, player four bids four googol coins, player 1 bids five googol coins. And that that's a little carazy. But I don't think it's an awful carazy, I think it will be rare and often be ambiguous whether the strong card is worth going full tilt like that or not, and that it's not the worst thing ever even when it does happen.
My point is that a "name the biggest contest" is not something that should actually happen, because it doesn't matter what number people choose in this case; the last player to bid just says "2 higher than that".
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A funny thing with this card is that it's possible a card is so good that the last player is gonna take it no matter what, so everyone bids like, 1 million, because every buy being a Province for the rest of the game is about equal to a throneroomable possession or whatever :)
Another possibility is that the game can end in this move, and the card is a card that can determine wins (like a valuable Fairgrounds for example). That could also create a situation where it's all about naming as high a number as possible which isn't good.
I think the auction could work if instead you bid on how many VPs all the other players should get.
I don't think this is a problem since the auction only goes for 1 round. The person who played the card, who bids last, just automatically wins.
I don't think he was worried about an infinite bidding loop, he's just saying 10 point Fairgrounds comes up for auction, player 1 bids 1 coin, player 2 bids three million coins, player three bid three billion coins, player four bids four googol coins, player 1 bids five googol coins. And that that's a little carazy. But I don't think it's an awful carazy, I think it will be rare and often be ambiguous whether the strong card is worth going full tilt like that or not, and that it's not the worst thing ever even when it does happen.
My point is that a "name the biggest contest" is not something that should actually happen, because it doesn't matter what number people choose in this case; the last player to bid just says "2 higher than that".
In MtG, this is actually a thing.
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A funny thing with this card is that it's possible a card is so good that the last player is gonna take it no matter what, so everyone bids like, 1 million, because every buy being a Province for the rest of the game is about equal to a throneroomable possession or whatever :)
Another possibility is that the game can end in this move, and the card is a card that can determine wins (like a valuable Fairgrounds for example). That could also create a situation where it's all about naming as high a number as possible which isn't good.
I think the auction could work if instead you bid on how many VPs all the other players should get.
I don't think this is a problem since the auction only goes for 1 round. The person who played the card, who bids last, just automatically wins.
I don't think he was worried about an infinite bidding loop, he's just saying 10 point Fairgrounds comes up for auction, player 1 bids 1 coin, player 2 bids three million coins, player three bid three billion coins, player four bids four googol coins, player 1 bids five googol coins. And that that's a little carazy. But I don't think it's an awful carazy, I think it will be rare and often be ambiguous whether the strong card is worth going full tilt like that or not, and that it's not the worst thing ever even when it does happen.
My point is that a "name the biggest contest" is not something that should actually happen, because it doesn't matter what number people choose in this case; the last player to bid just says "2 higher than that".
In MtG, this is actually a thing.
When? If both players have the ability to generate an unlimited number of something, then there will either be a draw or something else to break the loop; I can't think of a situation that a player would lose because they can't think of s number larger than their opponent can.
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With the release of Empires, debt seems like a natural fit for this card. I stole the wording from Mountain Pass. I changed it to an Event so it's always available to any player.
Black Market Auction
Cost: (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/5d/Coin0.png/16px-Coin0.png)
Type: Event
+1 Buy
Reveal the top card of the Black Market deck. After this turn, each player bids once, up to 40(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png), ending with you. If no one bids at least 1(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png), put the card on the bottom of the Black Market deck. Highest bidder gains the card and takes the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png) they bid.
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And you might want to rename it just 'auction,' Black Market Auction is a mouthful.
"Black Auction"
This thread got revived and I got another chuckle out of this. I'm a terrible person.
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Adding, "If this is your first buy" to prevent buying this an infinite number of times in a turn.
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I like this idea, but I wish there was a way to make it happen less often. I feel as though the game might be a little weird/slow if every player is using this event every turn. Perhaps it should be a card, not an event, or not give you a buy.
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If it was a card, I would think a "trash this" mechanic would be necessary. But I don't know how often it would be used as an Event anyways.
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I agree with removing the +buy. I would also suggest adding a minimum bid of the cost in coins of the card revealed. I'd like to see what happens when one person bids highly on a card to keep another player from, e.g. improving his engine, and how much it warps his/her strategy after the fact. I do not agree, however, that it would be bought very often. There is way too much variability in what type of card you are bidding on. Maybe do like the original Black Market, and have the person who played the card choose one of three. Lastly, you need the setup clause adding the black market deck. If black market isn't in the kingdom, there is no black market deck to reveal cards from.
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Monopoly mechanic? If the player doesn't buy it, then bids can be made.
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Monopoly mechanic? If the player doesn't buy it, then bids can be made.
I think the idea of the card is the auction itself. The player who buys the event already has significant advantage in being allowed to bid last, so he/she doesn't need the added bonus of being allowed to buy the card outright before betting begins.