Can't all that be done on N0, so no posting is allowed anyway? What's the posting restriction thing?
I think you have to allow claiming of the voting and all that on D1, that's a major part of theory discussion.
If you have less charges than another player who has the same role -- Vanilla.
If you have more charges than another player who has the same role -- Chosen PR.
If you have less charges than another player who has the same role -- Vanilla.
If you have more charges than another player who has the same role -- Chosen PR.
You're reading it right except this part is backwards: if you have more charges than another player and the same PR, you become vanilla and the player with fewer charges becomes the PR.
This prevents everyone piling on one player, although with the addition of vote stealing, the way you originally read it could work now. Maybe that's better?
Like, make it simpler for argument's sake.
9 town players, only cop/doc/rb to chose.
A - cop
B - cop
C - cop
D - doc
E - doc
F - doc
G - rb
H - rb
I - rb
J - scum
K - scum
H - scum
If each of these players votes one player down on the list, all nine of them get 1-shot powers, except the three that got stolen, right?
If A got 3, D got 3, and G got 3, and scum stole from B, E, and H...town gets a 3-shot cop, 3-shot doc, and a 3-shot RB.
Is that all right?
So here's a thought: instead of adding the 4th bolded rule, what about this:
3) Each player gets one charge (shot) for each Pre-Game Vote. The following rules are applied in THIS order:
– If a player gets no Pre-Game-Votes, they remain Vanilla Townie or Mafia Goon (respectively).
– If two or more players chose the same Power Role, the one who gets fewer Pre-Game Votes gets the PR and the one who had more Pre-Game Votes becomes an X-shot Recharger, with X equal to the number of votes they received.
– If exactly two players have the same Power Role and the same amount of Pre-Game Votes, both of them will get the desired role.
– If three or more players have the same Power Role and the same amount of Pre-Game Votes, all of them become X-Shot Rechargers with X equal to the number of votes they recieved.
Changes in bold. This way there aren't any scenarios where town has a bunch of PRs zerod out, and any giant number of PRs for scum are town's own fault.
If it's chosen in-thread, scum's ability to lie is important.
I think scum need to be able to openly claim what roles they are picking to prevent some rolecop-centered breaking strategy, or rolecop needs to become a Vanilla/notVanilla cop.
What about this for a PR list for that variation:
– X-shot Rolecop
– X-shot Tracker
– X-shot Watcher
– X-shot Jailkeeper
– X-shot Redirector
– X-shot Recharger
– X-shot Midnight Mystic
– X-shot One-Night Neighborizer
I'm thinking this takes away the ones that are significantly more useful for town or scum, so scum can't be saddled with too many useless roles due to enforcing a random distribution and seeing who argues with it because they don't want to be a scum Midnight Desparado or Friendly Neighbor.
Only 8 PRs would make choosing entirely at random much more likely to produce collisions, which ups the Wifom and force town to discuss this...
--you need to incentivize distribution of charges (like, we all vote for Faust usually, so how do we make people not vote for Faust)
One thing that could possibly be a crack is that people will probably just charge the most popular players or best players. Someone like me who is a complete unknown is probably not going to have any shot at getting a PR.
As I understand it, the reason to limit the amount of PR is so there are not as many PR in the game. That could work, however, that force more people to choose the same role's and like it was already discussed, some PR are much more desirable than other. This means you should prolly add a mechanic so people would be more likely to chose a role that others are not as likely to choose. But again, this puts most of the decisions on people who are most likely to get the most charges.
I might suggest a mechanic that allows all players a better chance to get a PR.
But town will want the strong scum roles to keep them from scum, too.
What if...
--scum player must choose a town player; he gets all charges that player receives and all charges the scum player receives goes to that town player.
That way, if Faust is scum, the scum team doesn't get all the charges. It also adds some complexity to scum's decision-making.
What if...
--scum player must choose a town player; he gets all charges that player receives and all charges the scum player receives goes to that town player.
That way, if Faust is scum, the scum team doesn't get all the charges. It also adds some complexity to scum's decision-making.
LOL, I see what you did there. I do have a question though. What if Faust is Town?
What if...
--scum player must choose a town player; he gets all charges that player receives and all charges the scum player receives goes to that town player.
That way, if Faust is scum, the scum team doesn't get all the charges. It also adds some complexity to scum's decision-making.
LOL, I see what you did there. I do have a question though. What if Faust is Town?
Then scum probably stole his charges.
What if...
--scum player must choose a town player; he gets all charges that player receives and all charges the scum player receives goes to that town player.
That way, if Faust is scum, the scum team doesn't get all the charges. It also adds some complexity to scum's decision-making.
LOL, I see what you did there. I do have a question though. What if Faust is Town?
Then scum probably stole his charges.
That would put a ton of importance on who rolls what, like, more than usual.
What if...
--scum player must choose a town player; he gets all charges that player receives and all charges the scum player receives goes to that town player.
That way, if Faust is scum, the scum team doesn't get all the charges. It also adds some complexity to scum's decision-making.
LOL, I see what you did there. I do have a question though. What if Faust is Town?
Then scum probably stole his charges.
That would put a ton of importance on who rolls what, like, more than usual.
That's the point.
You can't just default to Faust, or whomever is the consensus strongest player in the game.
Current Rules | Scott | Ash |
Mafia 1-Shot Jailkeeper (Chuck) | Mafia 1-Shot Recharger | Mafia 1-Shot Recharger |
Mafia 1-Shot Rolecop (Charlie) | ||
Mafia 3-Shot Recharger (Anya) | Mafia 3-Shot Redirector | Mafia 1-Shot Redirector |
5 VTs | 5 VTs | 4 VTs |
2-Shot Recharger (Bruce) | ||
2-Shot Recharger (Charles) | 2-Shot Jailkeeper | 2-Shot Recharger |
1-Shot Redirecter (Chaz) | 1-Shot Recharger | 1-Shot Redirector |
1-Shot Jailkeeper (Amy) | ||
2-Shot Tracker (Boromir) | ||
1-Shot 1-Night Neighborizer (Alice) | ||
1-Shot Watcher (Annabel Lee) | ||
2-Shot Midnight Mystic (Biff) |
By voting after in-thread conversation, town can bring their reads into it.
Sadly, I can't model that, so here's what I did. (Ran the voting and scumteam setup 5 times, adjudicated each one 3 times, using 3 different rules sets.) I'll post them for comparison in the next post.
Method:
- Assume a 15-player game with the following players, broken into groups by "skill level".
Alice, Anya, Amy, Astrid, Annabel Lee, Bob, Bill, Bruce, Biff, Boromir, Charlie, Charles, Chuck, Chaz, Chip- 3 scum are rolled at random
- Each town member picks a power role at random with equal distribution. (It may end up being better to favor the stronger roles, but I'm not sure how much, and I figure this approximates it well enough for now.)
- The mafia members take Rolecop, Jailkeeper, and Redirecter, 1 each but ordered randomly. (Again, some odds of other roles is probably best, but this approximates my best guess at strategy.
- Each town member votes for another player, chosen at random with equal distribution from among the A and B groups. (I'm guessing here based on the idea of Nash Equilibrium, I'm guessing that biasing more toward one group or the other is countered by a similar bias from scum, and that this is where it winds up. Of course real life players won't be so clearly grouped.)
- Each mafia member votes for a town player, chosen at random with equal distribution from among the C group.
- Each mafia member selects a player to steal votes from, even distribution among the A and B groups, and never choosing a player another mafia member has already stolen from.
- I resolve the role distribution with the rules as currently written, with the "Scott Variation" (most votes wins a conflict, fewer votes becomes Recharger instead) and with the "Ashersky Variation" (Stealing becomes vote-exchanging.) It is possible that the method of choosing stealing targets should be different with the Ash Variation, but I'm not really sure how, especially if town are voting the way I have them, I can't see any true improvement that won't be based on an actual sorting of player skill (which is possible in practice, but I think beyond the scope of me doing trial runs here.)
Current Rules | Scott | Ash |
Mafia 1-Shot Recharger (Charlie) | Mafia 1-Shot Recharger | Goon |
Mafia 1-Shot Redirecter (Bruce) | ||
Mafia 7-Shot Recharger (Bob) | Mafia 7-Shot Rolecop | Mafia 4-Shot Recharger |
7 VTs | 7 VTs | 5 VTs |
1-Shot Midnight Mystic (Alice) | ||
3-Shot Tracker (Anya) | ||
1-Shot Rolecop (Annabel Lee) | 1-Shot Recharger | 1-Shot Rolecop |
1-Shot Recharger (Chuck) | ||
1-Shot Recharger (Chaz) | ||
1-Shot Watcher (Bill) | ||
2-Shot 1-Night Neighborizer (Amy) |
Current Rules | Scott | Ash |
Mafia 1-Shot Redirecter (Chip) | ||
Mafia 2-Shot Recharger (Charles) | Mafia 2-Shot Rolecop | Mafia 2-shot Recharger |
Mafia 1-Shot Recharger (Boromir) | Mafia 1-Shot Recharger | Mafia Goon |
3 VTs | 3 VTs | 2 VTs |
1-Shot Watcher (Astrid) | ||
2-Shot Recharger (Amy) | 2-Shot Rolecop | 2-Shot Recharger |
2-Shot Watcher (Bob) | 2-Shot Watcher | 2-Shot Recharger |
1-Shot Rolecop (Alice) | 1-Shot Recharger | 1-Shot Rolecop |
1-Shot Rolecop (Chuck) | 1-Shot Recharger | 1-Shot Rolecop |
1-Shot Redirecter (Charlie) | ||
1-Shot Midnight Mystic (Bruce) | ||
2-Shot Midnight Mystic (Anya) | ||
1-Shot Recharger (Chaz) | ||
1-Shot Recharger (Annabel Lee) |
What if A is the top 15-20%, C is the bottom 10% and B is everything in between?
Current Rules | Scott | Ash |
Mafia Goon (Bob) | ||
Mafia 2-Shot Recharger (Anya) | Mafia 2-Shot Jailkeeper | Mafia 2-shot Jailkeeper |
Mafia 4-Shot Redirecter (Boromir) | Mafia 4-Shot Redirecter | Mafia Goon |
6 VTs | 6 VTs | 5 VTs |
4-Shot Rolecop (Alice) | ||
1-Shot Redirecter (Chip) | 1-Shot Recharger | 1-Shot Redirecter |
1-Shot Jailkeeper (Chuck) | 1-Shot Recharger | 1-Shot Jailkeeper |
4-Shot Watcher (Bill) | ||
1-Shot Recharger (Amy) | ||
1-Shot Recharger (Astrid) | ||
1-Shot Recharger (Chaz) |
Current Rules | Scott | Ash |
Mafia 2-Shot Redirecter (Amy) | Mafia 2-Shot Redirecter | Mafia 1-Shot Redirecter |
Mafia 1-Shot Jailkeeper (Bruce) | Mafia 1-Shot Jailkeeper | Mafia Goon |
Mafia 3-Shot Recharger (Anya) | Mafia 3-Shot Rolecop | Mafia 2-Shot Recharger |
5 VTs | 5 VTs | 2 VTs |
1-Shot Jailkeeper (Annabel Lee) | ||
1-Shot Redirecter (Boromir) | ||
1-Shot Tracker (Bob) | ||
2-Shot Recharger (Alice) | 2-Shot Tracker | 2-Shot Recharger |
2-Shot Redirecter (Biff) | 2-Shot Redirecter | 2-Shot Recharger |
1-Shot Rolecop (Charles) | 1-Shot Recharger | 1-Shot Rolecop |
1-Shot Tracker (Astrid) | 1-Shot Recharger | 1-Shot Tracker |
1-Shot Watcher (Bill) | ||
1-Shot 1-Night Neighborizer (Charlie) | ||
1-Shot 1-Night Neighborizer (Chip) |
Setup #1
Current Rules Scott Ash Mafia 1-Shot Jailkeeper (Chuck) Mafia 1-Shot Recharger Mafia 1-Shot Recharger Mafia 1-Shot Rolecop (Charlie) Mafia 3-Shot Recharger (Anya) Mafia 3-Shot Redirector Mafia 1-Shot Redirector 5 VTs 5 VTs 4 VTs 2-Shot Recharger (Bruce) 2-Shot Recharger (Charles) 2-Shot Jailkeeper 2-Shot Recharger 1-Shot Redirecter (Chaz) 1-Shot Recharger 1-Shot Redirector 1-Shot Jailkeeper (Amy) 2-Shot Tracker (Boromir) 1-Shot 1-Night Neighborizer (Alice) 1-Shot Watcher (Annabel Lee) 2-Shot Midnight Mystic (Biff)
Setup #2: Probability Strikes Back (This is the weirdest one I rolled I think.)
Current Rules Scott Ash Mafia 1-Shot Recharger (Charlie) Mafia 1-Shot Recharger Goon Mafia 1-Shot Redirecter (Bruce) Mafia 7-Shot Recharger (Bob) Mafia 7-Shot Rolecop Mafia 4-Shot Recharger 7 VTs 7 VTs 5 VTs 1-Shot Midnight Mystic (Alice) 3-Shot Tracker (Anya) 1-Shot Rolecop (Annabel Lee) 1-Shot Recharger 1-Shot Rolecop 1-Shot Recharger (Chuck) 1-Shot Recharger (Chaz) 1-Shot Watcher (Bill) 2-Shot 1-Night Neighborizer (Amy)
Setup #3
Current Rules Scott Ash Mafia 1-Shot Redirecter (Chip) Mafia 2-Shot Recharger (Charles) Mafia 2-Shot Rolecop Mafia 2-shot Recharger Mafia 1-Shot Recharger (Boromir) Mafia 1-Shot Recharger Mafia Goon 3 VTs 3 VTs 2 VTs 1-Shot Watcher (Astrid) 2-Shot Recharger (Amy) 2-Shot Rolecop 2-Shot Recharger 2-Shot Watcher (Bob) 2-Shot Watcher 2-Shot Recharger 1-Shot Rolecop (Alice) 1-Shot Recharger 1-Shot Rolecop 1-Shot Rolecop (Chuck) 1-Shot Recharger 1-Shot Rolecop 1-Shot Redirecter (Charlie) 1-Shot Midnight Mystic (Bruce) 2-Shot Midnight Mystic (Anya) 1-Shot Recharger (Chaz) 1-Shot Recharger (Annabel Lee)
100% agree with this. It happens here too.
Something I also want to keep in mind, I was reading all the threads I could find on mafiascum about setup balance, and it seems that people tend to instinctively balance setups to be scumsided.
I think you have to do the voting during N0, when the thread is locked.Why? That was the original setup, but consensus seemed to be that it was more fun if you could bring your reads into it. Any popcorn claiming strategy is equally viable either way. Doing it N0 seemed to make it more personal/political than doing it during D1 I thougt.
It strikes me as best play for middling and new players to definitely choose crap roles and charge up good players. That's not fun.100% agree that this isn't fun. I don't consider a game where everyone has to vote you or Faust to be fun, so if that's optimal strategy I'm not happy. But do you think this is the case with the rule that the player with fewer votes gets the power and the more votes is a recharger? Because that's how I've been thinking about this. Tried the other way in the middle column of the sample setups and didn't like the results.
And depending on what you decide for scum, they just target the good players to block.I think scum need some way to disrupt votes, so the claimed votes don't solve the setup or catch scum in a lie. But again, doesn't that make targetting Faust for all the votes sub-optimal?
Even if this was all done before alignment was rolled...maybe people try to get roles for themselves instead of powering up each other, maybe.I saw some setups like this, they looked kind of gross to me honestly. Like voting before alignment is rolled seems like it'd really make things personal/political.
A different way to do this would be to choose PRs, randomly assign as normal, and develop a charging mechanism only. So, someone is a 0-shot RB and needs charges. You could have a list of roles, players have a finite number of votes, etc. mafia might have negative charges to counter town's positive ones.
I think you have to do the voting during N0, when the thread is locked.Why? That was the original setup, but consensus seemed to be that it was more fun if you could bring your reads into it. Any popcorn claiming strategy is equally viable either way. Doing it N0 seemed to make it more personal/political than doing it during D1 I thougt.
It strikes me as best play for middling and new players to definitely choose crap roles and charge up good players. That's not fun.Quote100% agree that this isn't fun. I don't consider a game where everyone has to vote you or Faust to be fun, so if that's optimal strategy I'm not happy. But do you think this is the case with the rule that the player with fewer votes gets the power and the more votes is a recharger? Because that's how I've been thinking about this. Tried the other way in the middle column of the sample setups and didn't like the results.
And depending on what you decide for scum, they just target the good players to block.QuoteI think scum need some way to disrupt votes, so the claimed votes don't solve the setup or catch scum in a lie. But again, doesn't that make targetting Faust for all the votes sub-optimal?
Even if this was all done before alignment was rolled...maybe people try to get roles for themselves instead of powering up each other, maybe.QuoteI saw some setups like this, they looked kind of gross to me honestly. Like voting before alignment is rolled seems like it'd really make things personal/political.
A different way to do this would be to choose PRs, randomly assign as normal, and develop a charging mechanism only. So, someone is a 0-shot RB and needs charges. You could have a list of roles, players have a finite number of votes, etc. mafia might have negative charges to counter town's positive ones.Quote
This is also something that could work, maybe each player picks a PR, and everyone has some number of charges they can't use on themselves. If they have 2-3 charges each or something it puts more charges in the control of town, so should make the game less scum-sided baring really bad town play, which is a time it's okay for the game to get scum-sided IMO.
I like the concept of Mafia trying to get charges from town though. Like trying to convince people to charge them up.
I sort of liked Recharger as a PR, but this could work too. I guess just having no limit on how many people could be a given PR would be best with that set of rules. In that case would need to put more time into making most of the roles close to equivalent in power level. Or have the weakest ones be goofy and fun anyway....
Thanks for talking with me about this by the way, I really appreciate it.
I think if you do it while everyone is talking, it's much easier to force mafia into something less than ideal for themselves, or even catch them in a lie. If you do it during N0 and mafia gets some sort of information, they will be better equipped to lie correctly.